Choosing Faith: Separating Wheat from Chaff

Tom Luth - "Never attempt to reason with people who know they are right!" ~Frank Herbert 
And this is at the heart of why I so utterly distrust religion. Most religious people know, with absolute certainty, that their belief is utterly infallible, and that they are always, without exception, 100% correct in every matter. They are doing God's work. Who or whatever that God may be. God told them that slavery and racism are good. God told them to take vengeance on heathens who have [false] beliefs different than their own. God wants them to kill in his name. They are right, all others are wrong.
We just saw the latest demonstration of such a belief system once again. Some say these are just a rogue group, and that all other Muslims are saints. Fine, believe that if that makes you happy. I believe what I see, and have seen,time and again. Religion, by-and-large, is horrendously evil, and prompts people towards evil acts. I want no part of it.
Randall Chambers - It's an insane logic...because even when someone is proven wrong they still seem to argue they're right. 
Ed Gauthier - Most of them only started to "believe" in the first place when they were kids, and some gomer in a school house or church house started talking about "religious" matters. But what if the same dopes had told them something entirely different? Yep, they'd "believe" THAT, instead. In short, like a blind man lost in the desert, they'd swallow anything. 
Tom Luth - I am a very slow learner, and it was not until the late seventies that I came to the inevitable conclusion that religion is not for me. I found I had to chose to hate the same people my church insisted I hate — blacks, jews, gays, liberals, etc. — or accept that religion and I have nothing in common. I didn't like the idea that to be a good Christian, I had to hate so many people, so I was done. 
Robert Waldo Brunelle Jr - Take care not to confuse what a religion actually says with what some of its followers misinterpret as saying.
Tom Luth - I hear ya, but every religion, insists they are the ONLY ones who truly follow God. Even in Christianity, where there are a few thousand variations of Christianity, each separate church insists that they, and they alone, hold the truth and are the only ones following Christ, and all others are evil fakes. I just don't need that drama. I try to be a good person (although I am told God doesn't give a shit how good we are, bummer) and keep my fingers crossed. 
Robert Waldo Brunelle Jr - Fortunately, God is much more ecumenical than we are. 
Tom Luth - I guess I will find out soon enough. Tea Baggers are, of course, praying that scum like me will burn in hell for eternity, but, hey, who knows? 
Dave Rawson - Even the non-religious are certain their view is the correct one and repeatedly promulgate it with a zealous ardor. 
The major difference between the two groups is that the non-religious don't lay it off on someone else as the source of good. 
The non-religious believe they are good ergo those who disagree are bad. 
But in general, groupings fail, in my opinion, because this type of behavior is endemic to deeply judgemental and moralistic humans whatever their stripe. 
Many people go through life without seeing evil wherever they look. Others seek it out as a kind of penitent self-flagellation, proof they are better the The Other. Somewhere in their psyche is the concept of Just Punishment for those who don't meet their standards. 
In my life, I've found people are people. I would hope others overlook my continuing "stupids", so ethically, I believe I should do the same. 
But that's just me, a tiny little nothing in the vast expanse of human behavior. I only have to satisfy myself, not everyone else. 
Tom Luth - I have seen a handful of super-athiests who treat their non-belief as a religion. ie: the nuts who spend their time protesting public nativity scenes, etc. Most people, outside of the deeply religious, are similar to myself, and shrug and say "I have no idea." People say agnostics are cowards for not taking a stand, which I find absurd. How is saying "I don't know" cowardly? It is like if someone asked me "what is the capital of Ethiopia," and I didn't know, then I should say "I don't know." Should I be brave and take a stand, even if it is almost certainly wrong? Okay then, the capital of Ethiopia is Oslo! I am courageous! I am an idiot, but I took a stand! 
Tom Luth - Religion, as I have seen it, is far more about who you are supposed to hate, and sharing that common hatred, than anything to do with peace or love. 
Dave Rawson - I recently ran across some quotes from one Paul Tillich on Faith and Certainty, Doubt and Religion (capitalized to represent ideas). He was of the opinion that Certainty was the opposite of Faith, or at least Doubt was necessary for the growth of understanding. 
Fundamentalists of all stripes (including secular) are locked into rigid world views. To doubt for a moment what they believe as bedrock understanding is to risk psychic breakdown. A shift in the axis of reality that opens them to caprice and arbitrary causality. They are flung into an unhinged emptiness where there is no ground of being. 
So doubt, that lack of rigid world-view, for some personalities is devastating and can't be risked because without the certainty of their world view to explain and make sense of all they see, they would be left alone. 
I've been to maybe a hundred different churches in my life. There was only one clearly fueled by hate. I could clearly see it in the contorted faces twisted with anger. In general, most churches are more conservative than secular organizations, but that's a long way from preaching hatred. 
When I went looking for Tillich quotes, I found this within someone's sermon, it appears. 
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An Age-Old Dilemma 
Dealing with questions that life presents to faith was put into a classical formula in the 5th century by Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo in North Africa. Eventually it came to be known as “Fides quaerens intellectum.” In English that translates “Faith seeking understanding.” “For there are some things which we do not believe unless we understand them, and there are other things which we do not understand unless we believe them.” 
Later on in the 13th century, Thomas Aquinas would reverse that phrasing to read “Understanding seeking faith.” 
Doubts 
Six hundred years later Paul Tillich would declare that doubt is always an essential part of seeking to understand what faith is all about. “Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith,” he said. And he would go on to describe the methodological, skeptical and existential sorts of doubting there are within human experience.
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It's a pretty good sermon, altogether. At least one I could stomach. Dunno if you'd be interested in the 5-minute read, but it's more typical than not. 
Faith Isn’t Certainty 
Ed Gauthier - I vividly recall as a junior altar boy at Our Lady Of Religious Silliness being flatly told several times that all Jews are doomed to hell. Most of us who dumped the church scene when we reached legal age don't pursue anything related to it with any particular ardor - we just want the holier than thou bible-bumpers to shut the heck up and leave us alone. 
Muhammad Rasheed - lol 
Why should you trust Frank Herbert's opinion on this matter anyway? Is he your god? 
Muhammad Rasheed - You're going to reject the Lord of the worlds and His religions because of what "Frank Herbert" said? Do you think Frank Herbert will save you from the wrath of God for rejecting Him?  
Good luck! 
Tom Luth - I think you have a very confused interpretation of just what that quote means. You seem to get confused a lot, actually. You seem to be the only person who has read my posts, and perceived them to to support police in shooting blacks. I honestly have no idea how you could reach that conclusion either. This thread here: Tom Luth shared - Deaths From Police Meme 
Muhammad Rasheed - It wasn't a critique against you, Tom, but towards the images the meme creator decided to use. You weren't the meme creator, were you? I agreed with your actual point, and often do on that issue. I was only attacking what I saw as an unfair subliminal message in the meme. In responding to a post from someone I usually agree with, the critique will usually come across as nitpicky and small. On matters in which we actually disagree (such as the merits of world religion) my responses will sound different, and more broad. 
In the above status post you actually say that the quote is the reason you reject religion. Whether I interpret Frank Herbert's line correctly or not is irrelevant; you have joined the ranks of the unrepentant hellbound over that man's quote, is what you are saying. Logically I don't think it is a good idea to gamble away your soul over the opinion of that guy. 
Tom Luth - Ah, okay. Attention to details. I never said Herbert's quote was the REASON I lost religion; I said it was at the heart of why I distrust religion. Herbert, btw, was not speaking about religion, but this was part of one of his science fiction novels. It applies in many situations. Remember, too, that there are hundreds of thousands of religions out there, and, at best, only one can be "the right one." And for each of these religions, there are people who are one-hundred percent positive, beyond any doubt, theirs is the one true religion. 
Whatever one may think of these terrorists, I think we can all agree, they were sincere about their beliefs, to be willing to die for Allah. And for every belief imaginable, there are people equally dedicated. 
But, to speed this up, let's say we have narrowed it down to Christianity. Okay, Christianity is indeed the one true religion. Oh wait… WHICH Christianity? Better pick carefully, or your soul will burn for all eternity because you were not all-knowing. Now choose: Catholic? Lutheran? Methodist? Baptist? Anglican? Pentecostal? Calvinism? Presbyterian? Choose carefully, very carefully. Your eternity is at stake. Anabaptist? Charismatic? Mormon? Seventh Day Adventist? Millerite? Unitarian? Christian Scientist? Evangelical? And tens of thousands I have neglected, my apologies. Which one? Now, the most devoted in each will say, "Are you kidding me? There is only ONE that is legitimate, and all the others are evil PHONY CHRISTIANS! I look forward to them spending eternity in Hell for guessing wrong!"  
But, for someone like myself, who is so mind-numbingly stupid to not be able to pick out the real deal from all the phonies, it is tough. Now, there are hundreds lining up to set me straight, and point me in the right direction. But, here is the scary thing. I will get as many instructions as there are people "helping" me. Each might say all the others are tools of Satan, deliberately leading me to destruction. Yeah, could be, I guess.  
Even reading the exact same Bible, it is amazing how many different interpretations of the same scriptures there are. When I worked in aerospace, the young woman at the desk in front of me belonged to a church in North Long Beach, CA. She was utterly convinced that her church was the ONLY church in the history of the world where the congregation will make it into heaven. Particularly impressive, as she, like millions of others, believes heaven is restricted to one hundred and forty-four thousand, and everyone else goes straight to hell. How fortunate she was born just a mile from the only real church in the world. 
I may sound sarcastic, but that is not my intention. My intention is to illustrate how impossible this decision is.  
I grew up Baptist, having Baptist Pastors on both sides of my family. As a child, I liked the church, but by high school, I found it becoming mean. Rude, insulting, hateful people were taking a larger part, and their views were being pushed in the church. By the late seventies, I found the church to be largely a hate group, with a never-ending list of people I had to hate to demonstrate I was a good Christian. I had to hate Jews, blacks, gays, liberals, the poor, etc., to show Jesus what a good boy I was. And that was the last straw for me. I am not an atheist, but I no longer have any religious conviction. I continue to listen, but I have not heard anything that says "this is it." haven't closed the doors, but I must say, religion and me? Unlikely. 
John Mark Sappenfield - I've found the Episcopal church more accepting. In fact, asking questions is encouraged. There's a lot more freedom.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tom Luth wrote: “Ah, okay. Attention to details. I never said Herbert's quote was the REASON I lost religion; I said it was at the heart of why I distrust religion.” 
I consider you an expert on coloring Groo comics, and would reasonably expect you to consider yourself ‘right’ on the methods to do so. So I should never attempt to reason with you in a discussion on that topic?  
The activating component in the belief systems is ‘faith’ by definition. There is a logic involved, but accepting the concepts of the faith as true is a given in those faiths. Approaching it outside of that concept would be fundamentally alien to the principles involved and would naturally lead to illogical intellectual conflict.  
Tom Luth wrote: “Herbert, btw, was not speaking about religion, but this was part of one of his science fiction novels. It applies in many situations. Remember, too, that there are hundreds of thousands of religions out there, and, at best, only one can be ‘the right one.’" 
That’s not necessarily true. There is only One God, with one message, and most of the religions out there are merely systems formed around that one message. The actual heart of the differences between them is political.  
Tom Luth wrote: “And for each of these religions, there are people who are one-hundred percent positive, beyond any doubt, theirs is the one true religion.” 
The majority of these people are followers on the basic level and aren’t subject matter experts in the material to have any deeper insight past the basic doctrine though. People like that are easily swayed by outside forces like politics, family tradition, etc., just as easily as the religion, and there is often crossover areas that they are unconsciously aware of since they don’t actually study the materials. 
Tom Luth wrote: “Whatever one may think of these terrorists, I think we can all agree, they were sincere about their beliefs, to be willing to die for Allah. And for every belief imaginable, there are people equally dedicated.” 
As an actual Muslim who is aware of what the texts instruct, they can be “sincere” all they wish, but that doesn’t mean their stance is correct. When the texts specifically say XYZ, yet they do ABC “in the name of” the texts with their whole hearts, they are still wrong. 
Muhammad Rasheed - Tom Luth wrote: “But, to speed this up…” 
…he said, at the beginning of a 475 word essay. lol 
Tom Luth wrote: “…let's say we have narrowed it down to Christianity. Okay, Christianity is indeed the one true religion. Oh wait… WHICH Christianity?” 
All of these denominations are under the banner of “Pauline Christianity,” and believe Jesus is divine, Jesus is the divine son, Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, Jesus was Resurrected, and that if we believe in him we will be redeemed from Original Sin. All of them believe that if you accept this as a truth and live your life “Christ-like,” you will get into heaven. The differences between them are political – a matter of applied technique in doctrine. It actually doesn’t matter at all which one you pick; as long as you believe in the above, and perform it in your life, you will meet the core qualifications of the religions. Arguing with the individual denominational theologians as to who is actually doing it best is irrelevant.  
Tom Luth wrote: “’There is only ONE that is legitimate, and all the others are evil PHONY CHRISTIANS! I look forward to them spending eternity in Hell for guessing wrong!’" 
That’s just the normal contentious divisiveness of being a human and has nothing to do with religion per se. The interested truth seeker can just study the materials for him/herself and discover the truth of the matter in the texts. It’s not really hard; you just have to be motivated to do so. For those who are concerned about the state of their soul, recognize the glory of the One God, and have a sincere thirst for truth, it will be worth it.  
Tom Luth wrote: “But, for someone like myself, who is so mind-numbingly stupid to not be able to pick out the real deal from all the phonies, it is tough. Now, there are hundreds lining up to set me straight, and point me in the right direction. But, here is the scary thing. I will get as many instructions as there are people "helping" me. Each might say all the others are tools of Satan, deliberately leading me to destruction. Yeah, could be, I guess.” 
In your research techniques it helps to use critical thinking tools such as root cause analysis to penetrate to the heart of the matter. In items such as this there is only one most important leading question: “What does my Lord require of me?” Sacred scripture actually answers that question, and when you know that there are numerous “sports agents” really, trying to recruit you to their team, it’s best to ignore the political doctrines and go directly to the texts themselves. “Study to show your own self approved.” Rely on your own intellect and understanding and demonstrate discernment. Don’t dismiss people “just because they are right,” because they are SUPPOSED to believe. But discern between the truth of the Lord’s message versus the political squabbling between sects. 
Tom Luth wrote: “Even reading the exact same Bible, it is amazing how many different interpretations of the same scriptures there are.”  
This is true when the human mind reads anything. God will judge you based on your own understanding and how you acted it out as an individual.  
Tom Luth wrote: “I may sound sarcastic, but that is not my intention. My intention is to illustrate how impossible this decision is.” 
I understand your point, but it’s not impossible. There are competent subject matter experts that can help guide you to a place where you can comfortably apply your own insight from a solid knowledge base of self-research. You don’t have to feel that way. You just have to want it and recognize upfront that anything worth having will be inherently challenging but not impossible to master. 
Tom Luth wrote: “I grew up Baptist, having Baptist Pastors on both sides of my family. As a child, I liked the church, but by high school, I found it becoming mean. Rude, insulting, hateful people were taking a larger part, and their views were being pushed in the church. By the late seventies, I found the church to be largely a hate group, with a never-ending list of people I had to hate to demonstrate I was a good Christian. I had to hate Jews, blacks, gays, liberals, the poor, etc., to show Jesus what a good boy I was. And that was the last straw for me. I am not an atheist, but I no longer have any religious conviction. I continue to listen, but I have not heard anything that says "this is it." haven't closed the doors, but I must say, religion and me? Unlikely.” 
God has clear and specific tenants He requires us to follow to be on the Path towards the success He wants for us to achieve. Finding out what those tenants actually are is your job as a believer, and should you find in gathering this knowledge that those tenants conflict with the behavior in the institution, you should at that point be able to safely discern what is from God and what is the flawed activities of man pretending to be from God. In every area and industry there are those who know what they are doing and are competent representatives, and there are those who do everything wrong, make no effort to correct their deficiencies, but say they are card-carrying members just as good as the first guy. There are also various shades in between the two. This is a truth inside of every field of human endeavor, and the religions are certainly no exception. I think it is unreasonable to allow the ‘shit birds’ in life to turn you off from worthwhile concepts and systems, especially when you have personal memories of people who actually performed those doctrinal precepts in ways that the original founders of the faiths would’ve approved of. Use those rightly-guided people as your example, and safely ignore the ‘shit birds’ and the incompetent the way you routinely do in every other field of interest. Are you equally willing to toss aside your favorite speculative fiction industries just because you come across the work of those creators who aren’t as competent as coloring as yourself? 
Theodora Nayler - I wholeheartedly agree with this and have nothing more to add.