My (generally disorganised) thoughts on the current fanfiction shitfight on Goodreads


















Anyone who knows me knows that I love my Sterek fanfic. For those who don’t know me but have somehow stumbled upon this post, Sterek is fanfiction based on the slash pairing of Stiles/Derek from the TV show Teen Wolf. I’m also quite fond of Steter, which is Stiles/Peter. And I’ve read a few Stisaacs I totally enjoyed, which is Stiles/Isaac. You guys have all spotted the common denominator right? Yeah, I just love Stiles. And who doesn’t?


But back to the shitfight.


Lately, a lot of enthusiastic readers have been adding Sterek fanfiction to the Goodreads database. This has upset some fanfiction writers. I don’t know how many, and I don’t know how representative they are of the fanfiction community.


Fair warning: I may be quite vague in this post, because I’m not going to name names, and I’m not going to link to Tumblr posts. Why? Because I’m writing this post to get my thoughts in order, not to call out anyone whose opinion may be different to my own. I welcome discussion or debate wherever you find this post, but I won’t be taking it to anyone else’s virtual doorstep.


What is Goodreads?


Initially, it seemed like some of the fanfic writers thought that their works were being uploaded to Goodreads. This is absolutely not the case. Goodreads is a catalogue, and any published work including work published online can be added by users. And, once it’s in the database, any user can review any work. That review is then shared on a timeline with the reviewer’s friends. It is also visible under the work’s main page. Users can like reviews, and comment on reviews, and reviews show up in our timelines. I found a lot of great Sterek fics because friends raved about them, and I’m not going to apologize for that.


One thing I will say about GR is that it’s not just meant for professionally published and edited works. It’s meant to be a database of, well, everything, from Shakespeare and Chaucer to web comics to fan fiction.


What was added to author profiles and book pages?


Here’s the part I’m not clear on. I understand that artwork was added as covers to fanfic that was either unattributed, or wasn’t intended for that fic. And that’s wrong, and shouldn’t have happened. A simple email to GR support or a request to a librarian would have sorted it out in minutes though.


There’s also been some talk of writers worrying about being outed, and stories of people who’ve lost jobs and custody of kids for writing “smut”. Erotica writer here, you’re preaching to the choir. But I don’t think that linking from a GR author page to an AO3 profile is suddenly going to bust the whole thing open. How could it? If any information other than that was added, then yes, that was wrong. But I’m not aware of any incidents where that happened, and I’m not sure how it couldhappen if the information wasn’t already available online anyway.


Fanfic is for fandom


You read Sterek? You recommend Sterek? You spend a lot of time at A03 leaving comments and kudos for Sterek? Surprised to find you’re not part of the fandom? So were many of us.


I’ve spoken to a lot of people in private groups who are absolutely gutted, because all the Tumblr posts going around about “fanfic is for the fandom only” make them feel like they’re not allowed to be part of the club when their only crime was to love something they read and want to share it with their friends.


I can’t pretend to be an expert on the fandom culture, except to say that I’ve seen enough posts in the last few days from writers who have no problem with their works being added to the GR database to suspect that the writers acting as the gatekeepers of fandom have no mandate to do so. And, as one prolific fanfic writer put so eloquently: Fandom is where fandom goes. Well, here we are.


The culture clash


I understand that the fanfic community is very different than the one on GR, but most of the people reading and reviewing fanfic on GR are doing it because they love the fandom. It may be accepted practice on AO3 not to offer any criticism, constructive or otherwise, and I have some sympathy for writers who have checked out their works on GR and suddenly discovered they have star ratings.


But that’s how we do things here. That’s how we approach what we read. And as a writer, you can’t actually control how readers interact with your work. To those of us on GR, reviewing and recommending fics here is no different than doing it when we connect on Facebook or Tumblr or anywhere else online. GR is how I’ve found so many wonderful fics that I otherwise would never have read. And that is why they were added to GR – because people were so enthusiastic about them that they wanted to share them with their friends.


“Someone that reads gay fiction and goes to GR is not the same as someone from the TW fandom that reads gay sterek fic with mpreg on AO3”


That’s an actual quote from an actual Tumblr post. Google it if you want to find it. Like I said, I’m not linking. And I’ve only got one thing to say in relation to that statement anyway: Bullshit. Bull-fucking-shit.


I read gay fiction. I read and write m/m fiction (not the same as gay fiction BTW. Ironically, m/m fiction has its origins in slash). And I also read gay Sterek fic with mpreg, A/B/O, and whatever other tropes you want to throw in there. I love them all.


And so do the hundreds (possibly more, I haven’t counted) of other GR members who are part of the various fanfiction groups. But you just go on worrying that we don’t understand the tropes you’re using because apparently fanfic is a different language that we can’t possibly, you know, pick up by reading it. Like you all did.


You do not own fanfiction.


In the past few days I’ve seen a few writers claiming their “intellectual property” is being shared without their permission. And here’s where I have a real issue. Yes, you wrote your fanfic, but you don’t own it. In the case of Sterek, MTV owns those characters.
Sidenote: I also saw a particularly hilarious disclaimer on A03 that stated:


I do not give permission to this work being read aloud and/or shared with the press, or anyone working on said production of Teen Wolf, including but not limited to cast, crew, writers, or producers. I also do not give permission share this work on third-party websites such as Goodreads, which I believe is a resource intended for published works outside of fandom.”


I read it aloud anyway. Like the fucking rebel I am. Again though, here’s the misunderstanding of what Goodreads is. Goodreads is for any published works, and yes, that includes works published online. And yes, that includes fanfic.


I absolutely believe that fanfiction only exists because studios and copyright holders allow it to exist. It's an act of goodwill, and most copyright holders recognise the fact that fanfiction, in all its forms, is good for their bottom line. I know that I've dropped money on the Teen Wolf DVDs because of Sterek, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.


I also believe though, that once fanfic writers start calling fanfiction their "intellectual property"--something I've seen thrown around in a few places the last couple of days--it will cause copyright holders to sit up and pay attention.


P2P


If claiming ownership will cause copyright holders to sit up and take notice, it will be P2P that might just force them to take action. In my opinion, fanfiction writers who think they own their fanfic and who pull it to publish will be more damaging to the fanfic culture that anyone reviewing and sharing recs on any platform including GR will ever be.


Interestingly, one of the most vocal of the fanfic writers is a writer who is publishing a non-fanfic book soon. This book, which will retail for around $12 on Amazon, is a former Glee fanfic that has been pulled to publish. Except last time I checked it hadn’t actually been pulled, it was still on AO3. In short, she has an issue with people sharing fanfic recommendations on Goodreads, but no issue attempting to make money off something she built using someone else’s intellectual property. And it doesn’t matter if the thing is as far removed from the original as Fifty Shades was from Twilight. In my opinion, it’s ethically wrong.


Maybe a Find & Replace of all the names is actually legally enough to get the work considered transformative. Legally and ethically aren’t always the same thing and, personally, I hate P2P fanfic and refuse to purchase it.


But hold on, isn’t Goodreads removing fanfics?


Yes, yes it is. Despite their own guidelines, GR has been removing fics at the request of fanfic authors. They don’t have to, but they are. Which means that all of those lengthy reviews with hundreds of comments and gifs and pics are also being removed. And people are upset about that.


On GR we make friends over the reviews were share and the books we love. Those reviews and those conversations are now being deleted. Some people have lost tens of reviews, if not more. That’s a lot of hours of work, and you know why they did it in the first place? Because they loved a story and wanted to share it.


Oh, and I write fanfic too.


Yeah, I do. Just started, but it’s going to be a thing for me. Because it’s fun, and I like to share it with people, both on AO3 and here. And I know a lot of writers who do the same. AO3 and GR aren’t oil and water. They aren’t matter and anti-matter. You don’t have to pick a side, really.


You’ll find me on AO3 as Discontented Winter.


Feel free to share, recommend, or rate my fics any way or anywhere you like. 
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Published on December 23, 2014 17:11
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message 1: by Meags (new)

Meags
Jesus, Lisa, I'm about ready to marry your brain! This was a perfectly executed blog post.


message 2: by Lisa (last edited Dec 25, 2014 11:07PM) (new)

Lisa Henry Sorry, what? Too distracted looking at Stiles.

Also, my brain is totally flattered but, fair warning, it's not usually this coherent.


message 3: by Meags (last edited Dec 25, 2014 11:50PM) (new)

Meags Lisa wrote: "Sorry, what? Too distracted looking at Stiles.

Also, my brain is totally flattered but, fair warning, it's not usually this coherent."


I call bullshit! There is no way you could write with this much impact if you're usually incoherent. Plus, holy crap, this 3 line reply took me over 10 minutes to write because I was mentally crippled by my own gif. Why is he so pretty? WHY!?!


message 4: by Lisa (last edited Dec 25, 2014 11:25PM) (new)

Lisa Henry He's just... confession time. A few weeks ago I took my 10 year old nephew to see Maze Runner just so I could stare at the pretty for 2 hours.

He wanted to see Box Trolls. I asked him if he was sure that wasn't for little kids?

We saw Maze Runner. No regrets.

#BadAunty

Also, I'm on day four of six morning shifts in a row. I don't even know my own name at this point! Sleep deprivation is my drug of choice!


message 5: by Meags (last edited Dec 26, 2014 01:42AM) (new)

Meags Surely your nephew was appreciative of the awesome action film he got to see!? The pretty was well worth the ticket price! I even went as far as to read the trilogy months in advance just because I heard he was cast in the lead role. No regrets, indeed!

Morning shifts during the week of Christmas!? Sucks balls!! You may not know your own name, but at least you're having zero difficulty remembering and appreciating Stiles!


message 6: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry My nephew loved it, so we both won!

Yeah, morning shifts suck, but someone's gotta work them, right? And I have New Year's Eve off, which is even worse to work.


message 7: by Borderstar (last edited Dec 26, 2014 03:34AM) (new)

Borderstar Great post Lisa! You are full of the Christmas gifts :D Sleep deprivation is clearly a good strategy for you. he he

Something that really bugs me too, that you mentioned above, is that some AO3 authors have been commenting that fans on GR don't understand things like mpreg etc - but do they really think mpreg and such are exclusive to TW? I don't really read this particular trope much but I was interested to see what published books included it and just as an example I found these on GR which have been around for some time:

Listopia: Mpreg Romance

Listopia: Best M/M Romance with Mpreg Plot

Listopia: Non-Shifter Mpreg Romances

Genre: Mpreg

Check out the dates and there are a number of books with pub dates of 2009/10, prior to TW even being released. As far as I can recall, I had read Yaoi with mpreg before TW fanfic was even about - and that was going back to before I was even a member of GR!


message 8: by Lila (new)

Lila I still can't get over that disclaimer...

description


Nobody, really nobody benefits from that warped, narrow-minded definition of fandom.

Great post, Lisa!


message 9: by Andrew (new)

Andrew Great post Lisa!

teen wolf photo: tumblr_m8k9jh9KRT1qixosbo1_250.gif


message 10: by Adrianamae (new)

Adrianamae Thank you, Ms. Henry. Thank you!


message 11: by Jyanx (new)

Jyanx Great post, and I completely agree with you on the P2P issue.

description

and because I can't help myself.

description


message 12: by Cari (new)

Cari Z. Perfect post, Lisa. I read a huge amount of fanfiction and I've found some of it right here through Goodreads, by reading a review, clicking a link and heading over to AO3. The intellectual property debate is so willfully blind, it seems to me. Anyway, well written, well spoken, keep posting!


message 13: by Alice (last edited Dec 26, 2014 10:55AM) (new)

Alice Love the post Lisa (and your Sterek contributions)! Totally agree especially with the "You do not own fan fiction section". As soon as I saw the "intellectual property" claims I wondered how long it would take an MTV writer with a well paid lawyer to squash that. I think though a lot of these authors' claims that they want to have control over there works isn't what they mean, what they want is to have control over readers' reactions to their works and that is why they are removing them. The differentiation is a fine line and many of them haven't had enough experience in the art world - whatever medium it takes - that that is not how it works. We often create something and want to protect it from any negativity, but in doing so sacrife so many positives. That is my take on where the authors who are removing their fics are coming from and how and why the "intellectual property" term is being thrown around carelessly. It is too bad the author at the center of this (who IMO has some serious confidence issues, which is where her view on GR is coming from) started such a kerfuffle about something that both parties enjoy so much.


message 15: by Dalia (new)

Dalia Great post, Lisa!




* A Reader Obsessed * Thank you for being our voice!!


message 17: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Borderstar wrote: "Great post Lisa! You are full of the Christmas gifts :D Sleep deprivation is clearly a good strategy for you. he he

Something that really bugs me too, that you mentioned above, is that some AO3..."


Thanks, Borderstar! Yeah, I ready first mpreg long before I read my first fanfiction. Mpreg's been lurking around the edges of the m/m genre since it's been a genre.

Tropes aren't just for fanfiction.


message 18: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Lege wrote: "I still can't get over that disclaimer... "

Someone pointed out to me on another thread that it was probably to avoid scenarios where a Johnlock fic was read aloud by the actors at a convention. Which was hilarious, actually.

And, if you put something online, you don't get to say how people can use it if there is no copyright. And of course there is no copyright because these characters are ALREADY copyrighted. By the company that actually owns them.


message 19: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Andrew wrote: "Great post Lisa!"

Thanks Andrew! And thanks for the Stiles GIF. You can never share too many of those!


message 20: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Wart wrote: "I CAN"T FIND YOU ON A03

also, well said."


Thanks, Wart!

I should have removed the space in my name. Here's a thing that I wrote over there: http://archiveofourown.org/works/2745563


message 21: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Cari wrote: "Perfect post, Lisa. I read a huge amount of fanfiction and I've found some of it right here through Goodreads, by reading a review, clicking a link and heading over to AO3. The intellectual propert..."

Thanks, Cari!

AO3 is a great site, but Goodreads blows it out of the water when t comes to actually socialising and sharing recs. Without GR, I would have missed out on so many awesome fics.

And yeah, the intellectual property thing is incredibly strange. I love writing fanfic and will keep doing it on the absolute understanding that I don't have a legal leg to stand on regarding ownership.


message 22: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Rachel wrote: "Love the post Lisa (and your Sterek contributions)! Totally agree especially with the "You do not own fan fiction section". As soon as I saw the "intellectual property" claims I wondered how long..."

Agreed, Rachel! It's such a shame that there's been such a knee-jerk reaction by so many writers when they've found their stuff on GR. It's fans who are sharing their recommendations, which, on any other platform, wouldn't be an issue. Nobody here set out to upset the fanfic writers. We only wanted to share our enthusiasm for their work.


message 23: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Jennifer☠Pher☠ wrote: ""

I literally love you too, Stiles...whoops, I mean Jennifer.


message 24: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Dalia wrote: "Great post, Lisa!

"


Thanks, Dalia!

Aw, I want a Sheriff hug too.


message 25: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry R * A Reader Obsessed * wrote: "Thank you for being our voice!!"

Glad to do it! Just wanted to get my feelings on the matter down on record, and I'm so glad that others found it helpful.


message 26: by SheReadsALot (new)

SheReadsALot 1000% thank you for this! :D


message 27: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry MLE wrote: "Great post, and I completely agree with you on the P2P issue.
and because I can't help myself.

"


You never need to apologise for Peter gifs. NEVER!


message 28: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry SheReadsALot wrote: "1000% thank you for this! :D"

Thanks for reading :)


message 29: by Kat (new)

Kat The angry mob is starting to catch on.

http://fuckyeahzachnichols.tumblr.com...

Does anyone know if it's even possible on Tumblr to comment without reblogging?


message 30: by Dalia (new)

Dalia Loederkoningin wrote: "The angry mob is starting to catch on.

http://fuckyeahzachnichols.tumblr.com...

Does anyone know if it's even possible on Tumblr..."


You can comment on a post if the blog admin allows it - then you can see the text bubble outline. Otherwise you just have to reblog.


Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ I don't have a dog in this fight but I wanted to say I like your words.

*fist bump*

We can hug it out later if you want. ;)


message 32: by jules0623 (last edited Dec 27, 2014 07:07PM) (new)

jules0623 I was involved in a few different fandoms when fanfic was a bit of a shadowy, almost shameful thing, but these days when the actors play up their characters fanon relationship for the shippers both on and off screen, read fanfic aloud at conventions, and mention fandom happenings in their Golden Globe speeches, fanfic writers crying about secrecy is ridiculous. Particularly when the cry has been loudest from someone who is using fandom to launch her professional writing career. :(


message 33: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ wrote: "I don't have a dog in this fight but I wanted to say I like your words.

*fist bump*

We can hug it out later if you want. ;)"


Oh! Let's drink it out instead! I've got wine!


message 34: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry jules0623 wrote: "I was involved in a few different fandoms when fanfic was a bit of a shadowy, almost shameful thing, but these days when the actors play up their characters fanon relationship for the shippers both..."

Thanks, jules!


message 35: by Dreamer (last edited Dec 28, 2014 09:14AM) (new)

Dreamer Brilliant Lisa, so eloquent!



message 36: by Maiko-chan [|] (new)

Maiko-chan [|] Lisa, thank you so much for this. I haven't been commenting on this whole debacle (mostly just 'liking' to show support) because there's just no way for me to fully get my thoughts in order for the sake of coherency, nowhere near what you have so eloquently done here. The fact that there is debate at all, that people have felt a need to attack anywhere, makes me so incredibly sad. It's utterly depressing. So disheartening that there is any need for us to defend ourselves, that your words among countless others are needed. Thank you again, and please bear with me as I try to finally get my thoughts in some order here, something that isn't just the simple support of a like.

Many years ago, back in the days of high school, I posted my own fanfiction. To this day I still don't like it all that much, and I cringe when I think back on my littlelengthy ANs surrounding the story primarily because I was young and scared of getting flames like I'd seen others get. It's not linked on GR and it probably never will be (I'm still just as surprised as the first time when FFN notified me someone fav'd my story, etc.) although I have NO PROBLEM with someone ever wanting to, I just don't see why they would (seriously, I was young, it's really pretty bad). It was the first one I posted online, but not the first fanfic I wrote, nor the first story I posted (the second is hidden deep within the internet for...reasons) and it won't be the last fanfic I post up either (still waiting on a friend to beta for that one). I got into fanfiction soon after I got into anime/manga, which all happened years ago.

In short, I've been a fan of many a series and all that entails: watching the show/movie(s)/etc, reading the manga/books/comics/etc, looking up gifs, watching the AMVs, sharing fantastic AMVs with friends and finding yet more great series, squealing about fannish things with friends/strangers IRL/online, shared headcanons, contributed to others', read fanfiction, written and posted my own, "reviewed" others' stories occasionally, favorited and followed many others, PM'd authors with longer "review" thoughts, found one of my best friends this way, thought about "reviewing" only to decide more often to not, inspired and been inspired by discussions of fannish things, and of course, recommended stories to friends/strangers and had stories recommended back to me, etc. All of which happened long before GR.

Obviously, this isn't how it is for everyone. Some things get switched around, others don't happen, many things get added and/or replaced. I haven't yet seen Teen Wolf, nor read the fanfiction. I've seen countless individuals come together and form friendships because of this series, as people have/do with others. Even without GR I've been interested by the show/fanfiction, and GR has only made me more interested. Am I any less a part of overall fandom, however small a part I may play in each and every fandom for a specific series? If you looked at everything else in the list, and took out the part where I've written and posted my own story/plan to soon post another, does that make me excluded from fandom? Do you take away all those years of being a fan, all those friendships that came together due to and were strengthened by being a part of these communities just because I've now become a member of GR, which, as some people seem to believe, is entirely removed from fandom? Yes, many people have gotten into fanfiction and other forms of fandom thanks to GR. How is that a bad thing? And I think it's safe to assume (perhaps even obvious?) that the people who began to link fanfiction stories on GR for the sake of sharing with others were already aware of fanfiction as well as fans of the fanfiction+series they linked to AND, therefore, are a part of fandom. Or am I wrong?

That being said, I mostly wanted to bring people's attention to a continuation of the link provided by Loederkoningin in message 30: I think reversil says it perfectly, and it's nice to see someone on Tumblr (who I don't believe, due to their phrasing, is a member of GR? I could be wrong.) who isn't a part of the awful attack we are all dealing with. Be prepared to scroll down a little to get past all the hate to see reversil's response.


message 37: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Dreamer wrote: "Brilliant Lisa, so eloquent!
"


Thanks, Dreamer!


message 38: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Thanks so much for replying, kimosumiko!

I agree that the main problem is people seem to think that if you're a part of GR, you're not a part of fandom. Well, why not?

And thanks to linking to reversil's post. I haven't been following on Tumblr because I said I wouldn't take the argument to anyone else's virtual doorstep, but it's so nice to see that there ARE different opinions out there amongst the established fanfic writers and that just because one side is loudest it doesn't mean theirs is the only side.


Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ Lisa wrote: "Oh! Let's drink it out instead! I've got wine!"

Another non-hugger, eh? 3/4 hug? After wine?


message 40: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Oh! Let's drink it out instead! I've got wine!"

Another non-hugger, eh? 3/4 hug? After wine?"


After wine, anything could happen :D


Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ Awesome. I'll pack up my Star Wars trivial pursuit game! Best. Celebration. Ever.


message 42: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ wrote: "Awesome. I'll pack up my Star Wars trivial pursuit game! Best. Celebration. Ever."

YES! Finally an excuse to break out my favourite pic ever:



Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ Westley didn't even say it that good! I wonder if Darth's "choking" thing was really just his kinky way of saying, "You're mine, boy." with breath play. He does have the leather thing going…


message 44: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ wrote: "Westley didn't even say it that good! I wonder if Darth's "choking" thing was really just his kinky way of saying, "You're mine, boy." with breath play. He does have the leather thing going…"

JA Rock and I totally promised Irish Smurfette a Vader/Fett fanfic smutfest. We're just waiting for JA to get her shit together and watch the movies, which she hasn't yet because obviously she had a massively deprived childhood.

But yes to breath play and leather!


Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ She better not cheat & just watch that new one. That absolutely unequivocally will not do. I can't believe you didn't make this happen while you were staying w/her. You could've helped her work through her deprived childhood together. With wine.


message 46: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Oh god, no. The new ones never happened, right?

And we did a lot of wine drinking, but never got around to the Star Wars watching. Did you know there is a Bulgarian wine called Bear Blood?

It goes alright :)


Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ I did not. I know of the Hungarian Bull's Blood. It's quite nice.

I'll have to see the one that's coming out since Abrams got all the original peeps back. I caved like a matchstick castle when I was shown that trailer. I wasn't happy about it though. Hopefully that counts for something.


message 48: by BWT (new)

BWT Brilliantly said. (BTW - I LOVED "Balloon Animals Are Awesome"!!)


message 49: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry Optimist ♰King's Wench♰ wrote: "I did not. I know of the Hungarian Bull's Blood. It's quite nice.

I'll have to see the one that's coming out since Abrams got all the original peeps back. I caved like a matchstick castle when I w..."


Yeah, it's not often you're scared the original creator of something will totally balls it up. Abrams can't actually do a worse job that Lucas did with Episodes I-III, can he?


message 50: by Lisa (new)

Lisa Henry BWT (Belen) wrote: "Brilliantly said. (BTW - I LOVED "Balloon Animals Are Awesome"!!)"

Thanks, BWT :)


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