The battle of Stoke Field and the Game of Thrones finale

June 16, 1487 is the date of the battle that can be considered the true end of the Wars of the Roses, in which Richard’s nephew, John de la Pole, and his good friend, Francis Lovell, were defeated by Henry Tudor (boo, hiss) at the battle of Stoke Field . John was slain in the battle, and when I wrote Sunne, we did not know Francis Lovell’s fate, the story most accepted by historians being that he drowned trying to cross the River Trent. I am happy to report that we now know he made it to safety in Scotland, and then disappeared from history’s notice. So we’re free to assume he lived on, wisely deciding to keep under Tudor’s radar. Or we can decide that he died soon thereafter –in case you think not enough men died in the Wars of the Roses.
And speaking of dying, that brings us to the season finale of Game of Thrones, which can always be counted upon to have a higher body count than those Texas Chainsaw horror films. I guess I am inured to violence by now, having killed off so many of my own characters; or maybe I’ve just learned how to look away at the worst moments. But I loved the finale. It made quite a few changes from the ending of Storm of Swords, all of which I heartily approve. I thought it was a powerful, suspenseful episode, and why even bother voting for the best actor Emmys? I’d just mail it in to Peter Dinklage for that moment in which he says “I am your son.” Here is the link to my favorite reviewer’s commentary, and he includes links to interviews with many of the key players. http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/15/gam...
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Published on June 16, 2014 06:44
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message 1: by Iset (last edited Jun 16, 2014 07:43AM) (new)

Iset I must admit Sharon, there was a certain scene from A Storm of Swords which is near the end and I was sure they would close the season on that scene - but they didn't, and I can't say what it is because they didn't even show that scene at all! My guess is they will put it in early Season 5 as an ominous foreshadowing for the start of that season.


message 2: by Sharon (new)

Sharon I will have to go back and reread the ending, Isis, for I am not sure which one you are referring to. I guess the Tyrion-Tywin scene was so vivid for me that it eclipsed all else Either that or my memory is failing faster than I thought!


message 3: by Iset (last edited Jun 16, 2014 08:10AM) (new)

Iset It is difficult to say here without spoiling it for non-book readers, but I think it is not giving it away if I say it's the scene with a certain silent lady and the free brotherhood of the forest.


message 4: by Christine (new)

Christine Isis, I too was expecting that in the finale, but I read an article this morning that said it was never really supposed to be in this season, and may or may not ever be used as a plot line. I will be very disappointed if it isn't though, as that reveal at the end of SoS was one of the few that made me go "what?" with surprise when I read it.

I had also hoped that Stannis showing up at the Wall would have been more impressive. I wanted them to end the last episode with him riding in and us not knowing who it was until this week, instead it seemed like an afterthought which was a shame, but otherwise it was a good finale, I thought.


message 5: by Iset (last edited Jun 16, 2014 12:24PM) (new)

Iset I have to agree, Christine. Compared to the high standards set by previous seasons, I was a little less impressed this time round. I knew of course that they were working with less than half of Book 3, since the Red Wedding occurs well into Book 3 Part 2, and I definitely kept feeling that they were trying to stretch out the material to fit over the whole season, inserting some of these "filler" scenes to draw out time a little bit. Episode 9 was neat but not the big one I felt that previous Episode 9's had been, so I was really amped up for Episode 10, thinking that surely this would be the big battle with Stannis... and then... and then honestly I was surprised when it was over so quick and only two really impressive shots of the CGI manouevres. I was like "what?! Where's Stannis' EPIC battle?" I mean, I was expecting Blackwater levels of epic battle, and so yes honestly by comparison I was a little let down.

I wish you hadn't told me about that article Christine - I have not read Books 4 or 5, so I don't know how the lady features in future - and that is such nonsense about "never supposed to be in this season" - well she was in the third book! How can they say she was never meant to be in the season when she was in the third book?! And also - psssh - because they put in the ww prince and the tree (which I never saw coming of course, having not read 4 or 5) and those weren't in Book 3, so psssh I say to that. Having the scene with the lady as the closing scene would have been the BIGGEST CLIFFHANGER the show has ever done, not to mention ramped up the ominousness (er, is that a word?) to sky high levels.


message 6: by Christine (last edited Jun 16, 2014 12:33PM) (new)

Christine Yes! I was completely waiting for this to be Stannis' shining moment and then it was so unimpressive I was sad.

This is the article, if you desire reading it, but it does somewhat mention upcoming books so, I'll just give you the quote and spare you having to read spoilers for books 4 and 5.

From Alex Graves, the director of the finale- “It’s a great question, because it’s all I asked about last year when I was doing [the episode with Brotherhood Without Banners leader] Beric Dondarrion...But no, they didn’t do it. It was never on the docket to do this season — ever.”

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/gam...

As I said, I thought the end of 3 was an epic moment in the books so I was thinking it had to be in there, and I have read the others so I know how she plays into them, and granted she doesn't exactly become a POV character or anything, but how do you just leave her out? I wonder that with a lot of the abandoned plot points, particularly given how no one truly knows the ending of the series yet. What if GRRM decides that she (or any other spot that hasn't been used) becomes a major factor in the end of the book series? How do they work around that? Will they change the ending? Unless GRRM signs off on it and has told them "no you don't need that" in which case, that's sad for us book readers who are invested in numerous plots that ultimately don't matter.

Ah, the complications of page-to-screen adaptation!


message 7: by Steve (new)

Steve I'm not being facetious, bat am really curious: What is the attraction of Game of Thrones? I watched the first couple of episodes and got completely turned off by the violence. The killing of the innocent dog got me. Maybe I'm just a softie, although I do like a lot of heroic fantasy. (I have a good friend who loves it, but am curious about your take on it.) Are the books better?


message 8: by Iset (new)

Iset I think people could say a lot of different things to answer that question "what is the attraction of Game of Thrones" - excellent writing, nuanced characterisations, perfectly timed pacing... heck, in my review of the first book I pretty much cover all that, if you want to go read that (https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...).

But if I had to say just ONE thing? Because it's realistic. Too many stories fall into the trap of following the same basic model, and fantasy is especially prone to it because it comes from the absolute classic tales of heroes and villains, good versus evil. Often in these stories - whether it be in movies, tv shows, or books - our heroes win the day and good triumphs and though the creators might tease us we KNOW they'd never really let the hero die and evil win. It's predictable. It's too easy to guess what is going to happen in these run-of-the-mill follow-the-pattern stories. Game of Thrones is different. Game of Thrones doesn't present an idealised fairytale - it holds up a mirror to the real world. In the real world good people die undeservedly. In the real world everyone has their own side of the story. In the real world everyone is so varied and has their own ideas about how things should be that sometimes you think it's a miracle we agree on anything. In the real world evil doesn't exist in the pure unadulterated form it comes in in fairytales, there are only human beings, flawed human beings each more or less carrying around their own unique package of problems, issues, and mix of inspirational and aberrant behaviour.

Game of Thrones is more believable than many stories because it is realistic. You believe these characters could exist, you see situations mirrored in real life. You care more about these people than some perfect all-conquering hero. And, like real life, Game of Thrones is difficult to predict what is going to happen. The story doesn't get boring or unoriginal. People are invested in the outcome because Game of Thrones is one of the very few stories where no one can guess the ending, and because it's realistic and unpredictable like real life, anything could happen. People are desperate to know what will happen, and their favourite characters are at genuine risk of not getting a happy ending, so they really do care about what happens.

The books are a bit better than the tv show - the writing is sublime, and the tv show, due to time, cuts out a few scenes here and there. But honestly I've never seen a tv show adaptation adhere so closely to the book before - they've done a really good job, really brought the books to life. I would have to say it is quite possibly the best tv show of all time. It's just astounding in its fidelity to the source material, the locations, sets, special effects, quality acting... Yes, I would highly recommend it. This show has given me chills watching it at times, and other times left me reeling in shock, or yelling, or shedding tears. It affects people.


message 9: by Christine (new)

Christine For me, I have no problem with the violence and I would argue that the books are actually more violent than the television program in many ways. I prefer the books but that's because I always like to be directly inside the head of a character. I have some friends who found the continually changing perspectives of the chapters disorienting but I think it is the best asset of the series. Instead of viewing it as a typical "follow the hero" book series it gives you an almost Godlike view into the minds of every friend and foe possible. Then it is up to you, the reader, to decide who is your hero. Some readers will ultimately be right and some will be wrong, but the not knowing is most of the fun. You are watching many events unfold and each one is treated with ample detail, so, much like in real life, what is most significant likely doesn't come clear until well after the event transpires.

I think the writes for the tv show do a good job, but I feel like they are straying farther and farther as the series progresses, which (having read them all) left me with multiple "huh?" moments this season. That said, I still love it for what it is and some of the changes for television I think are improvements and some I think are false steps, but other people disagree. When the source material is so rich and there is ultimately no "wrong" horse to back, I think it makes it infinitely more interesting. You're not investing in a character, you're investing in a world, and that for me makes each book or season more exciting than finding out what the ultimate end game will be- though I do have my dreams for what that will be too, which is also part of the fun.


message 10: by Christine (new)

Christine writers*


message 11: by Steve (last edited Jun 17, 2014 05:53AM) (new)

Steve Thanks for all your remarks. I'll reconsider. I do appreciate nuances where there's good and bad, strength and weakness in characters. I suppose one reason I like good historical fiction, in addition to being a history buff, is that it's difficult (much as I would like to) to divide people into good and evil. (Sharon, I"m thinking of your King John in the Justin de Quincy mysteries.) On the other hand, there is enough chaos and unhappiness in the "real world," that even in tragedy I usually prefer some "order and resolution" in my fiction.


message 12: by Rebecca (new)

Rebecca I was also disappointed with the non show of a particular character...But after re-reading A Feast for Crows I wonder if the producers are saving it, because this particular book is nearly everyone's least favourite?

I think the character may show up as a Season 5 Finale. I also think Season 5 will open with the death of a character who was supposed to die but got no air time this season.

Though I love Game of Thrones both books and TV version I do object to some of the violence, most especially the rape scenes which should never be used as 'fillers.' I also could barely stand the terrible torture of another character from the previous serious-it was simply too distasteful...yes horibble things happen but I don't always want to see it.

Apart fromt he violence aspect I agree with what Isis and Christine have expressed so eloquently.

@Steve--I actually prefer the books to the TV show as you gain a more indepth study of the characters motivations and also the unreliable narrators which keep the reader on the edge of their seat. That said, the books are not without fault as GRRM does sometimes meander too much and the storyline can sometimes become bogged down. If you do start to read the books hopefully the sixth book will be released by the time you finish A Dance with Dragon.

I also bought a de Quincy novel and will now order the rest on Book Depository(thanks for the tip, Sharon. They are much cheaper than the othe company).


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