My interview with Josie DeCarlo P2

Yesterday, we posted Part 1 of my interview with the late Josie DeCarlo. Josie was the basis for her husband Dan's fictional comic-book rock band "Josie & The Pussycats". The above photo (click to enlarge) is Josie in full pussycats attire on a cruise with Dan. Below is P2 of three of the 18000+ words compiled for their chapter in my first book, I Have To Live With This Guy!, published by Twomorrows in August 2002. I haven't even looked over this, so I'll be reading it with you for the first time in about 10 years (part 3 tomorrow)...

Josie DeCarlo P2taped March 17th, 2002, by phone from New York for  "IHave To Live With This Guy!"
Blake Bell: Now when he was working at home, when thedoor was closed you wouldn't go anywhere near to his workplace?
Josie DeCarlo: It meant, "don't disturb" when his door wasclosed.BB: Did he listen to music when he was drawing?
JD: Yes.
BB: So that wasn't a distraction? He didn't needabsolute quiet? He could work and still have background music going? I'm alwaysinterested in the process an artist goes through.
JD: I think it's mostly because when you have athought in your mind, and you want to continue it, you don't like to beinterrupted because it could change all the way you're thinking.
BB: But would he come out to you sometimes andsay, "look at this, I'm having a problem, what do you think?"
JD: He just came out to have his lunch. But atthat time, no, he most likely waited for me to have the finished process beforehe would ask me if I see something that needed a little change or somethinglike that.
BB: Would you be focusing on the artwork or wouldyou be focusing on the story or both?
JD: It was both. It was the whole thing. That wasjust my impression. I didn't always think that I might have always been right.It was a feeling, yes I like it or maybe, it was something I could see for Dan,I would mention it. But most usually, whatever I saw that he did, his work, Iliked. I am his biggest fan actually. Whatever he did I loved. I loved hisimagination. I loved his quick wit. There were so many things - I thought, letthe man do what he wants to do. He was in charge of himself. That was a dreamhe had and he wanted to make sure that it would come true.
BB: Was he secure in his ability to do the work.Was he a confident guy or was he, "I don't know if this is working, is thisfunny?" What kind of temperament did he have in that regard?
JD: He was confident of his work.
BB: Sometimes artists are always insecure abouttheir work.
JD: No. This is why Dan talks so much to youngpeople, to young up-and-coming artists. "Please stay with it. If you have adream, believe in your dream" and he always wanted to make sure that he talkedwith the young artists to encourage them.
BB: He's been working on Archie and obviouslyit's a big hit. Do you remember the day when he came home and told you thatthey were selling Archie to Hanna Barbera - that it was going to be on T.V.tomorrow and that they had not consulted Dan and they weren't going to cut himin for a piece of the profits?
JD: Yes, well I thought it was very unfair.
BB: That's pretty early. Obviously everything iswell documented in the last few years of his legal struggles but even back thenhe became quite aware of not creating these charters but other people profitingfrom them when it should have been a shared thing.
JD: Exactly. Because you know what they did theyreally went into merchandise. Dan had done the artwork and he was paid but foreverything else, Dan's ideas, were used.
BB: So right from the start, he had frustrationswith his creations being used and making money for other people when he wasn'tgetting his proper share of it?
JD: Yes he did. He did but because he loved todraw he continued to draw. It was not just Josie - he also created Sabrina. Hewas constantly working on new characters - Valerie, Melody.
BB: I was going to ask you about Melody. Did hebase a lot of his characters on parts of you? We know Josie and the Pussycats,but Melody, a musical character, sounds like you in a way.
JD: Yes, and yet I don't relate to it that much.
BB: I think the French language itself is a verymusical, with the cadence and everything. Is that something he pulled from you,the way he added the musical notes into her voice.
JD: It could be because actually I am a musician.I study violin for many years. My whole family is a family of musicians.
BB: When did you start the violin, as ayoungster?
JD: Yes, as a youngster. Before the war. The warended my study. I already had four years of music lessons. My father's amusician and my sister's a musician. We all are. In fact, my father had his ownband. And he was so excited and fascinated about the American Jazz.
BB: I was going to ask you about some of hiscreations. Do you remember when he first comes to you with Josie and says,"look I've created this new character?"
JD: Yes. It didn't happen exactly like thatbecause we were going on a cruise. I had a friend, a French girlfriend, who wasso beautiful, she made me a costume and that was the pussycat costume. On thecruise many times they had the little carnival night. When I talked to Danabout it, I was thinking of having this cat costume - the cat with the spots.He thought it was a good idea and when I came in with the costume he actuallydecided that it should be made a little bit sexier. I had a hat with a point onthe forehead, cut around the eyes. He thought it was very nice but it coveredmy whole head and then he decided that we would just use the ear. When we hadthe whole costume together that's when Josie was created actually with thestyle of this costume.
BB: And who was this friend you spoke of who madethe costume for you?
JD: Her name was Ette. She was actually the wifeof a man that Dan had grown up together and was friends. He had also married aFrench girl and we became very good friends. That's how it all start, with thecostume. I went to the hairdresser and came in with the bouffant.
BB: Would he go and draw that out right away?"Wow, that's the picture I have in my head for a character and run right awayand draw the character?"
JD: Yes.
BB: I believe it was created for United Featuresfor a strip and then it was shelved for that Barney's Beads thing? It was funnythat he would shelve that to work on another strip. It was almost like atreasure chest sitting there waiting to be opened. Around that time, once Josie'sabout to come out, how many times is he using you as a model? Like, "I want todraw you for a certain scene in a comic book?"
JD: No, not really. It's all his imagination. Heloved to draw girls so I don't think he needed a model. Although he did sometimeswork with models in his early years. But no, he had a tremendous imaginationand because he loved to draw girls it was something that he actually finallygot most excited about drawing.
BB: It's funny, I was talking to Adrienne Colan,Gene's wife and he would draw such beautiful women as well, and I would say,"did you ever get jealous of all these beautiful women he's drawing all thetime and his like for drawing beautiful women?" It was interesting, she had agood laugh over that and she said, "no, I was his wife and I always feltsecure" and there was never any problems in that regard and it was the same waywith Dan?
JD: Very much the same way, yes.
BB: Do you remember the story behind him creatingSabrina and the first time you knew about that characters existence?
JD: Sabrina, I don't know very much alreadybecause he worked very closely with George Gladis, the writer. Together I thinkthey very much put Sabrina together. I don't remember that much of thedevelopment of Sabrina. It was at one point Valerie was called Pepper in Josieand it was changed.
BB: Why was that changed?
JD: Because at the time I don't think they likedthe idea of having a black girl called Pepper. They thought maybe it would beoffensive. I don't know.
BB: That's one of the few black characters incomics at the time. Do you remember any reaction to that because there was nota lot of black characters in comic books?
JD: Well, I thought it was great of them tointroduce that. The last thing that Dan, his last project, introduced a lot ofSpanish and Latin American people because this is what life is today. He wasjust working with the times I think.
BB: Now, Dan Jr. and Jimmy, now they ended updoing some penciling and inking as well. How big of an influence was theirfather on their desire to be artistic.
JD: No, no, no, they were artistic themselves,but in different ways. They didn't like the idea of working for so little moneyin comics. Dan Jr. has his masters in fine art and loves to paint and Jameswent to the institute of technology and he loves to do sculpture. So theydidn't have much interest but sometimes they had to pay the rent. Once inawhile they would work and do they cartoon and help their father because theywere looking for a little extra money. It's the most difficult thing to breakinto modern art and fine arts. Also Dan Jr had one of his paintings in theMuseum of Modern Art in New York. He is doing well, but you just don't sell.
BB: Once you pass away you sell, I guess. Thevalue seems to go up and they seem to only get appreciated once they're gone.So their careers and inkers and pencilers, for Dan, were just asides.
JD: When they did draw some comics, they had alsothere flare for fashion in comics and that's when I stepped out a littlebecause Dan Jr. was very worldly. He had traveled all over the world andstudied at the University of Rome. He also had a great, great flare forfashion.
BB: How big of an influence were the kids onkeeping Dan up to date?
JD: They did have a great influence, yes. It waswonderful, again at the dinner table, to have those three men discuss and sharetheir ideas. Of my marriage, it's something that touched me very much to think,the closeness of the three of them.
BB: Dan also had his brother, Vince. I'minterested to hear stories about him being Dan's assistant and inker in thesixties and being a part of that whole Archie look. When did that happen?
JD: And that was without any schooling to learnhow to draw. It was just natural.
BB: How did he start working for Dan?
JD: Dan thought that Vincent had the makings ofan artist also and he encouraged it and Vincent did very well. Butunfortunately, he passed away at an early age. He died of lung cancer. The two,their relationship was naturally very good and it effected my husband a greatdeal - baby brother, you know.
BB: How much younger was he?
JD: Vincent was 38, I think, when he passed away.
BB: How much younger than Dan was he - ten yearsyounger?
JD: Oh, more than that.
BB: So he really was a baby brother.
JD: He was the last born. Dan had four sistersand one brother.
BB: So out of high school Vincent started workingwith Dan?
JD: No, he worked with his father in landscaping.From there Dan would give him samples and ask him to ink them and sort of guidehim. Dan really felt that he was so good that he decided that they would worktogether for awhile.
BB: Back in the sixties when Archie was in itsheyday, was there any connection between the fan, the reader, and the artist?Do you remember having any sense that there were hundreds of thousands ofpeople out there reading these things?
JD: Well, yes and no. We knew there were fansbecause we would get fan letters all the time but we never realized the amount,no. I don't think it was as great as it is now. I think more and more peopleare beginning to recognize cartooning as a form of art. It wasn't recognizedthat early in Dan's career.
BB: Before comic book conventions came aroundwould Dan get a lot of fan letters in? Was it related to his Archie workmostly?
JD: Yes.
BB: He had that unique thing working for such anicon like Archie that even the super hero artists of the time, of the sixties,didn't really have because they were just kind of starting. But Dan's artworkappealed to so many people, so many ages. I gather he had a better sense of whowas out there reading. Was he one who was encouraged by the response to hiswork?
JD: Oh sure. And also as the years went by it waslike a study of people who continued to keep in touch. It was not somethinglike receiving one letter and then it was the end. It was like a continuationof receiving a letter from the same person – "I saw your work in that book andI liked it."
BB: Did you ever talk Dan in something or talkhim out of something? Like a project?
JD: No.
BB: He worked pretty consistently for Archie allthe way through.
JD: Yes, I was always amazed at how he never ranout of ideas. I was always surprised, how can you always draw somethingdifferent everyday? How did he do? Coming down in the morning and having tolook at a blank sheet of paper and having to put something down.
BB: Do you remember periods where he would sufferwriters block or artists block? Like, "oh geez, I can't think of anythingtoday."
JD: I don't think it was ever an issue. Maybewhen that happened he would go play a game of golf.
BB: Did you ever see him over the years, jumpinto a project that you thought was wrong to jump into or no?
JD: No.
BB: In the later days he would do Bongo Comicsand those types of things. Did you ever think, "Gee, I don't know if you shoulddo that" or "that doesn't sound right?"
JD: No, because I thought if he wanted to do thatit was up to him. In fact, I liked the idea because it showed that he was soversatile.
BB: So you were raising kids as you were, thatcan be a rather expensive venture. When he's doing Archie and you talk aboutDan Jr. going of to University, what's it like to work for somebody who's anartists and you never know...There's no health benefits?
JD: Yes it's very insecure. There was no pension.From time to time a bonus. But Dan was very productive so he managed to get thetwo boys an education. That's what he was working so hard for, too.
BB: A lot of the wives I've talked to felt that insecurity.What if one of the kids gets sick? What happens if I get sick? Did that play onyour mind a lot in those days or was it just Dan's passion and will...?
JD: It did. Actually they did have coverage atArchie at one point, health coverage. It was not early in his working days. Itcame late.
BB: Now when you say late, are we talkingeighties, are we talking seventies?
JD: I would say eighties.
BB: I got the feeling with your sons, they wouldlook at Dad and say, "that's not a secure way to make a living. I'm going totry something else and go to university and still maintain an artistic quality"but did they learn from that? Is that one of the reasons they didn't get intocomics?
JD: Yes. They used to think that their fathershould not work for so little money. They say that he was great but underpaid.
BB: We spoke of Pepper. Was that based onsomebody you guys knew?
JD: No, it was Ginger. Ginger actually, a friendof one of my son's college friends.
BB: So Ginger was based on somebody you knew butPepper was not? Pepper was just somebody out of Dan's imagination?
JD: Actually, the look of Ginger was very muchthe same with the glasses and the short haircut.
BB: What's it like to live with somebody who'saround all the time because they work from home? What are the positives, andthe negatives if there were any?
JD: We were living well enough to know that wedidn't have to be concerned with putting dinner on the table like during thewar.
BB: I just meant what is it like to have somebodyaround 24 hours a day. That can have some interesting positives because youwere around the person you liked to be with but then you could also feelsometimes like, "geez, we never get away from each other." Was it just a joy tohave him around at home as opposed out at the office all the time?
JD: It was sometimes a joy but it was to a point.When we did have something to do, when we had plans to go out with friends, itwas difficult to pull him out of that room! At that point, I was always goingback all the time, reminding him, "it's six thirty, it's a quarter to seven,it's seven o'clock. We're meeting them at seven thirty, Dan!"
BB: You're first comic book convention. Do youremember the first one you ever went to?
JD: Yes. It was really an experience for mebecause I had never really met the fans. I never know, really, how I wouldreact. But it was very easy since they were there to see Dan and I feltcomfortable about speaking with all of them and actually enjoyed it.
BB: Do you remember approximately when your firstcomic book convention was? Was it in the seventies, the eighties?
JD: Oh, no it was later than that. I would say itwould probably be '85. I didn't go to San Diego right away. It was in New York.
BB: Was it Dan's first convention? Did you guysgo to the first one together?
JD: No, he went many times without me beforethat.
BB: What was his reaction to the first comic bookconvention he went to?
JD: He went with some of the people from Archie.
BB: That must have been quite the experience. Didhe come back and talk about having hands on contact with the fans and gettingthat direct contact?
JD: Oh yes. Other times there were so manywonderful people working with Archie who were very big fans of Dan. They madeit easier for him by going along with him because it's very difficult at aconvention to sketch and to talk to the fans. You have to have someone elsewith you. They were very supportive of Dan and they helped him a lot when theywent along.
BB: There was almost a school at Archie, wasn'tthere? The owners would always hold Dan up and say, "here, draw like Dan. HereDan, teach these guys, bring these guys along." It is that a fair assessment?
JD: Yes, I would say yes. Some would come andbring their work and ask Dan what he thought about and ask him for advice.
BB: Whom do you remember from the Archie days,from the company and those who worked there. Did you socialize with any of thepeople, any of the artists who worked at Archie?
JD: Yes we did.
BB: Who would be some of those? Do you rememberanybody in particular?
JD: Well, we would socialize with...Paulineand...oh dear, I don't have these memories since Dan passed away. I may have dosome research.
BB: Speaking about your first comic bookconvention and it's your first time in seeing all these people and the effectthat Dan's work has had on them. What are some of your memories of a comic bookfan?
JD: It was most unbelievable for me. I know thathe was a good artist and I know that he was receiving praise but just towitness it was a different story. It was very exciting to see the reaction ofpeople. They wanted to see and meet him.
BB: Did that give him a sense of rejuvenation?Because if you do this long enough and it can seem like you're just doing itbut then all the sudden you get that kind of face to face contact and it can bealmost a regeneration.
JD: Yes that's right. I've decided to go all theconventions this year and will take the grand children along with me because Ihave that need of seeing everyone again and talk about Dan again. I was inOrlando a few weeks ago and it was very comforting to me when the fans came upand talked about Dan because they made me feel good. It was very comfortingbecause they came with nice words. For me it was important and I want to keephis memory alive. I don't want to let go just like that. I want to keep his namealive.
BB: In the last ten years, would he get a lot ofcommission work from fans? I know he would do a lot of sketches at conventions.
JD: Oh yes.
BB: How much time would he spend doing theSimpsons or Bongo Comics and how much time would he spend on doing commissions?
JD: It's hard to say. It's hard to keep track. IfDan could not draw something at the convention because time was running out, orsome other reason, he would do some commission work, yes. The last two years itwas a little bit easier to work on commissions because he was not on Archie'sstaff anymore.
BB: What was that like, not being a staff artistanymore?
JD: Well, he realized that he didn't want to workfor them any longer. They gave him that terrible letter telling him that he wasno longer needed. But it's also the fact that he was beginning to get veryunhappy about what was happening.
BB: And that's do to all the money being madeover the movies and the T.V. Shows without getting any part of it at all eventhough he was still working for the company at the time? When you take on a bigcompany like that in a lawsuit, that's a big decision. Looking back on that,what are you thoughts about that? Was that right to take them on in thatregard? Did you get a lot of support from the industry?
JD: Yes we did, so I thought Dan must be doingthe right thing because I feel whenever you think you're right you have tofight for your rights.
BB: That was something he was passionate about -morally making a statement that companies like that should be sharing in theprofits with the creators? Otherwise who's going to create for the company ifthe creator is not going to see a share?
JD: The fans would give him a lot of supportsaying, "I hope you win your case, it's terrible what they're doing to you."That was very good for Dan because he realized that even if we don't win thecase, because it's still in litigation, we felt that it is good for Dan to knowthat his fans felt that way. They gave him a lot of support.
BB: Was it a crusade for him? Was he able togather strength from it?
JD: Also the fact that quite a few companies cameforward to say to Dan, "we're not going to leave you without work. We're goingto give you some work." He worked for Bongo and Elvira. He did quite a bit ofother things when he stopped work for Archie.
BB: Well that's great to hear because a lot ofartists get left on the scrap heap, as they say, but he obviously was thoughtof so highly and his work was thought of so highly, that other people came andwere willing to pitch in to help. He was able to get other work in that regardbecause if one job goes and sometimes that job can be very difficult one.
JD: Dan just started. He wanted to do a book ofhis own. Finally, he say that, I have to do that and that's when he start tocreate new characters which are now just on paper but never got any further.Christie, our older granddaughter, was writing the stories.
BB: What kind of characters were they?
JD: They were three girls who were living in the lowereast side, Manhattan, and the story was revolving about their lives sharing anapartment and their different view on life and also their way of living. One,that will always staying with me, she loved beautiful clothes, that was alwaysin trouble with her credit cards and the other one was based on something else.It was going to be very exciting.
BB: Was he going to self publish this or wasthere a publisher interested?
JD: Well, yes there was. Actually it wasintroduced at the convention in San Diego. Dan Fogel was the backer for thebook.
BB: How did that come about? You had like alawyer handling this kind of thing for you at that point?
JD: No, because first they had to prepare andwork on the idea. Then when everything would have been together then the lawyerwould come in and probably not do the same thing that already happened withJosie. Make sure things were on paper. To this point, we haven't reallyabandoned the idea. That's all up to Dan Fogel. He wants to do things with whatwe have. He would like to frame the characters in a very good... in a moreexpensive frame so it would be put in...it would not be for the conventionpeople but for the...
BB: Like an art gallery?
JD: The gallery, to be in the gallery.
BB: How far did this get? You spoke of it beingon paper. Were there actual pages drawn for the book?
JD: No, no, just the model sheet.
BB: The character designs?
JD: Yes, the character designs.
BB: Who were these characters based on? Were theybased on real life people that your granddaughter and Dan knew?
JD: No, no that was strictly Dan's idea butChristie fell into the story rather nicely because she's twenty six years oldand they wanted to do something that would have Christie using the languagethat the kids of our time are using - a little more modern.
BB: She was going to be the scripter?
JD: Yes, yes.
BB: So that was his dream to produce a book?
JD: It was wonderful also because Dan Fogel lovedthe way she wrote. That was also a plus because we say now that Dan is doingthe drawing and Christy was doing the story writing it was kind of exciting forus again. It was an exciting time.
BB: Did Dan ever see any of his original artwork?Was he getting his original artwork back from Archie?
JD: At one point, yes, and then at one point itstopped.
BB: And then it stopped? They decided no to giveit back to him?
JD: It was always like begging to get it back.
BB: That's too bad. In the later years of a lotof cartoonists, that can make up for an appreciable amount of income - originalart.
JD: That is one of the reasons why we were ableto go to the conventions because he had some of the work, the originals, thathe could sell.
BB: To try and do a lawsuit, that can take a lotof your financial resources, as anybody who has ever confronted the legalsystem can attest to. How does one maneuver through a lawsuit like that andkeep one's head up? Was it a constant source of frustration for you and Dan tohave to do this, or were able to put it aside and deal with it when it was timeto deal with it, when a decision would come up?
JD: Well, at times we would do that and at othertimes we would also feel that if Archie had wanted to cooperate a little bitbetter, a little bit more, this could have been settled a long time ago becausewe weren't looking for millions. The lawyers' fees are pretty high, so we feltit was a question of stubbornness on their part because they could have settledwith Dan.
BB: It's too bad that it had to happen like that.
JD: Yes, but our lawyer is very optimistic andhe's still doing it for the grandchildren's sake and he doesn't want to abandonthe litigation - he wants to keep fighting.
BB: Does that have an effect on ones health goingthrough a lawsuit like this? Dan had the colon cancer in the mid-nineties andhe survived all that and came through it. If you've conquered cancer you canbasically conquer anything, but does fighting a lawsuit does that take effecton ones heath?
JD: Yes, I would believe that it had an effect.It was beginning to have an effect on his life, yes.
BB: It was funny, when I saw him in November atthe convention, you wouldn't have thought anything of that. I don't know if hewas shy but he was so busy working all the time, drawing the whole convention.It's funny -there's you and Lindy and Dick and Dan and those two guys would bedrawing away. You and Lindy would be the ones meeting all the fans and sellingall your wares there just to give them time to be able to draw. Is that prettymuch what life is like at conventions for you? Let Dan draw and I'll handle thetable?
JD: Yes.
BB: You must have met a lot of interestingpeople?
JD: Well, because I felt that Dan would ratherdraw than talk.
BB: What would you say was the biggest thrill ofDan's career?
JD: The biggest thrill really, it was Josie,because there were so many things that put us together. He created Josie and hehad me in mind. That makes me feel good to think that he got so excited aboutputting this together. Because it was like, well, that's some of his family.
BB: Was Josie your favorite thing that he workedon? Who was your favorite character that Dan ever worked on?
JD: I would say that I always liked the Archiecharacters. I thought they were great. The two gals were Betty and Veronica,they were great but there was still nothing like Josie.
BB: When that movie came out, did that make itbittersweet? What were thoughts when the movie comes out?
JD: We didn't like the movie. We went to see themovie because we wanted to be able to give our opinion to people who ask usabout the movie. It was nothing like the cartoon. When they had the cartoons onTV, that was fun. But, no, the real life movie, I was not impressed at all withthat.
BB: Did Dan have any say in that at all? Was heever asked for his opinions with regards to the movie?
JD: Yes, but he felt that it was almost like theyused every space in the movie for special effects, showing Coca-Cola. It wasalmost like advertising, a commercial. They were not always in their costumes.They were in street clothes also.
BB: Why was Dan so shy? Because on the page, itcomes out that he was this laugh a minute individual, but you would be sosurprised looking at his work that he was so shy.
JD: He was only shy during the early part of hislife. He didn't stay shy. He came out of that. He was very easy-going and alsovery funny. He was able to get along with young and old. He was not shyanymore. I think I changed a little bit of that on him.
BB: Because you were more outgoing than he was atthe time, you brought him out of his shell a little?
JD: Yes.
BB: Did you ever meet Wally Wood? He was the onethat was at Tower. He was the famous artist from the '50s, EC Comics and thenDan did Binky. Do you remember Binky at Tower in the mid-sixties?
JD: No. You see, there was a part of our lives,also, when I went to work. I went to work as a consultant in cosmetics and Iworked for 26 years. So there are a lot of things that I heard about but itdidn't really stay with me.
BB: When did you start doing that?
JD: I went to work when the boys left forcollege.
BB: So, you had a desire to get back to work anddo something once they had gone?
JD: Yes, and also to add to our income.
BB: Do you get a pension from Archie?
JD: No pension from Archie - nothing at all. Igot a pension from my work. I work for Lauren Taylor. I was consultant incosmetics for twenty-six years. I retired from that.
BB: So you actually get a pension for all thestuff you did but for all the stuff he did he doesn't get a pension. How do youlook back on the comic book industry then as one of the wives? Do you look backand say, "thank god Dan loved it so much because they didn't treat him verywell or they don't treat artists very well?" Is that a fair assessment?
JD: At the time, at the beginning when he went towork for the company, I didn't think they treated him that badly. It's justthat at the end of your career when you know that you can't maybe draw foreverthat you would want a company to give you the reward for all the years that yougave them. He gave forty-seven years! They were the best years of his life tothat company.
BB: What was Richard Goldwater like back then.Did you socialize with him at all?
JD: Yes.
BB: What was he like?
JD: He was friendly. We got along with him. Wewere on friendly terms.
BB: Was he a funny guy?
JD: No.
BB: What about Richard Sr. back in the old days?Do you remember Richard Goldwater Sr. at all?
JD: They were funny. The old timers were funny,yes.
BB: So now you're looking forward to going to theconventions?
JD: I am, yes. I have that need.