My interview with Josie DeCarlo P3

We've come to the end of our celebration of the late Josie and Dan DeCarlo (and what a better way than with the above 1940s piece by Dan; an elaborately-drawn envelope for, no doubt, another love letter to Josie). She will live on in memories and in Dan's artwork, immortalized as the Josie in Dan's creation, "Josie & The Pussycats". Here's Part 1 and here's Part 2. Part 3 finished off the original interview, done for their chapter in my first book, I Have To Live With This Guy!, published by Twomorrows in August 2002, and adds the follow-up questions at the end. RIP Josie...

Josie DeCarlo P3taped March 17th, 2002, by phone from New York for  "IHave To Live With This Guy!"

BB: Stop me if I'm being insensitive here, but financially,with no pension from Archie, are doing okay? Are you and the grand kids doingokay?JD: It's a little better off because we have theguardianship of one of our granddaughters. It will be three years that we haveJessica. That was difficult because it was like starting life all over againwith a teenager. It's very nice at times, then at other times it can bedifficult because times have changed.But it's not easy because of adifferent situation, which I hope will go well on Tuesday. I never applied formy citizenship papers because I never understood the need. I was married to anAmerican; I was living in the country that I felt was mine now. I was anAmerican but it wasn't down on paper.Then I went to work, I raised thechildren until they went to college and then I went to work and time went byand I would always say, "one of these days I have to become an American" andtime would pass. It's only last year that I say that I have no more excuses. Iwant to be an American citizen and I applied but times have changed. You don'tbecome an American citizen as easily as was fifty six years ago when I couldhave got my papers right away.It took one year. It was the beginningof March, a year ago, that I applied for my citizenship. They told me that itwould probably take a year and a half to two years before I became a citizen.That is very difficult right now, for me, because I am going in for aninterview on Tuesday. I don't know when I will be sworn in but until I am notsworn in, the money that we have has to be put in trust, otherwise I'm going tobe taxed fifty percent.The American people, every timesomebody passes away, the tax is 25 percent and it's double for me because I'mnot a citizen. So that is a really big worry for me. If it goes well Tuesday,they'll tell me that I'll be sworn in soon. I'm going to find out someinformation. They told me it might take three weeks to six months. Theycouldn't give me an exact time so I don't know. If it takes too long, the moneywe have, has to be put in a trust fund, in a government trust fund. So I willget taxed only when I am a citizen.
BB: So when Dan past away, any moneys that werein his name or under your name or under both of your names?
JD: Under his name but he had a will and the willwas that his possessions were to come to me. That's when the trouble comes in.
BB: So any funds that were available, all thesudden were frozen to avoid that double taxation? Would he get a G.I. Pension?
JD: No.
BB: From being in the war I would have thought...
JD: No, just the social security, both of us -him and I.
BB: But you guys were able to pay off the housebefore hand?
JD: The house is paid off yes. But there arestill the taxes. The taxes have gone up since we live here. The bank has openedone account for me so we have some money to survive. We have to actually waitto see what happens and then I just want to know how long it's going to take tofind out what happens to the money and when it will be available.
BB: So at the same time you're dealing with thesuddenness and the shock and then the government of the country you've lived infor sixty years is not exactly helping out.
JD: And we lived by the law. We paid our taxes.We did everything we were supposed to do. Actually there is no exception foranyone - you just have to go through the red tape.
BB: So you've had Jessica with you there sinceDan passed away? How much of a help is that?
JD: Well, I don't know if it's a help. I'm a helpto Jessica. She's a wonderful child but she's a teenager.
BB: How old is she now?
JD: Seventeen.
BB: You've, more or less, raised her for the lastthree years?
JD: The last three years were an adjustment tomake on both parts because I was raised very strict so I expect certain thingsand, for her, she went through terrible times so she's had to deal with allthat.
BB: Were you more of a disciplinarian than Danwas? With James and Dan Jr., were you the disciplinarian of the family?
JD: She was too young to remember when her fatherdied. When James passed away, she was only six years old. After that she had aterrible time with her mother who had a problem.
BB: We don't have to go there if you don't wantto go there. I don't want to make you uncomfortable.
JD: Then she lost her grandfather. It's difficultfor that child.
BB: I can't imagine. Even though my parentsdivorced when I was at a young age, I at least felt that I had that foundationof love and support. No matter what kind of troubled times there might of beenI always felt that if I fell that somebody would catch me and that was a bighelp, as I'm sure you and Dan have been to her.
JD: Yes, and still today, I want to be here forher. I just feel she's too young to really be on her own. I want to make surethat when she makes a decision, that it's time for her to leave when it's timefor her to leave. But I'm going to do everything in my power to try to get herto understand that here she has a roof over her head, and that I love her andam concerned about her future.
BB: So, keeping Dan's memory alive; you said youwere going to go to conventions and this lawsuit is still going to be pursued,as you say, for the future generations. Do you see the other project you werediscussing... was there a name to that project with the three girls living inthe lower-east side?
JD: It was called Jesse. We felt that becauseJessica could not contribute to the making of the book, we gave the book hername.
BB: So you're planning on developing that?
JD: I don't know if I can. Who would draw her?
BB: There are people who were very inspired byDan's work. Like I said, Batton Lash was a huge fan of Dan's work.
JD: If I could find someone and they would haveto be approved by Dan Fogel to see. Actually, I'm in contact with Dan and weare trying to find a way. Because if there were someone to draw, we wouldgladly make it come true. I think the idea is wonderful.
BB: Who exactly is Dan Fogel for the record?
JD: He's not an artist. He is in his own rightbut he does have all the books, he's not a collector either. He sells a lot ofstuff at the convention.
BB: Like comic books and original art?
JD: Yes, right. So he has a lot of knowledge ofart but he just can't draw.
BB: How did you guys meet up?
JD: At a convention.
BB: He was a big fan of Dan's? And he lives kindof in your area?
JD: No, he lives in California.
BB: He was helping out on this Jesse strip?
JD: He was the one who was going to launch it.There was a room where people were invited to come and listen to thingshappening in the art world. That's when there was like a meeting of Dan, DanFogel and his partner - a few other people were there - and they were askingthe public some questions, how they felt and wanting to have feed back fromthen to see what they thought about the idea.
BB: Dan Fogel was the backer of this project?
JD: Yes.
BB: It would be great if something could come ofthat.
JD: Yes, this is what Dan Fogel and I willdiscuss now, if we could find an artist who wants to take over the art. Christycan draw but I don't think she could carry on the cartoon. She very gifted andvery artistically inclined. She works on so many projects. She works with beadsand flowers and she can draw also. But I don't think it would be easy for herto write and draw and she's very good at writing.
BB: Do you socialize with other artists' wives?
JD:  Webelonged to the NCA, which is the National Cartoonists Association. All thecartoonists when they get together, it's like they "click" and they can't leaveone another. You can't pull them apart. They have seminars and so they could begone sometimes the whole day and all the women are there alone.So we had a meeting and the wife ofthe new president that year say to us, "I would like to ask all of you what youladies would like to do while our husbands are busy at their seminar." And wesaid, "I don't know." She said, "oh well I don't know," and she made somesuggestions. I raised my hand and said, "I have an idea, let's have grouptherapy," and everybody laughed. We complain about the same things. "Let's washour dirty laundry together!"
BB: You are all sisters really, you all have thesame types of stories?
JD: "They work too many hours, they do this, theydo that." The few complaints that we had I thought that we should share it anddiscuss it.
BB: I guess Lindy Ayers was at the funeral, wasshe not? You guys know each other fairly well?
JD: Yes.
BB: Were you always at the same tables together?
JD: Not always at the same table, no, but becausewe've had enough time to talk to each other. When they are together, the wholegroup is like one because they click. They admire each other. There is nojealousy among artists. They admire each other's work. It's such a feeling ofadmiration. They give advice to one other – "I'm using this kind of pen, andthis kind of ink - they talk shop all the time because the most important thingin their minds is their work.
BB: Whom did Dan admire? Of whom did he speak sohighly?
JD: He first admired Norman Rockwell. He even dida painting of Norman Rockwell because he wanted to be an illustrator at thebeginning of his art school.
BB: Did that ever bother him that that didn'thappen for him or was he pleased that he made such an impact? Because he mademore of an impact with Archie than he would have ever made, I gather, as anillustrator.
JD: Yes, I agree with you.
BB: Frankly, more people know of Dan's work onArchie than probably Norman Rockwell.
JD: It also stems from the cartoons that he drewwhen was stationed in England. We still have all these cartoons. All thesesituations that he was experiencing, it started right then and there. Itstarted with the war because maybe he felt that there was something specialabout that war that he was in. He was young and he just had to express himself.
BB: Did he talk about the effect? Was he inbattle a lot or was it mainly because he was an artist and he didn't have to gointo battle at all.
JD: No, he wasn't in battle at all. He was mostlya draftsman. He drew pin-ups for the nose of the planes.
BB: Were there other comic book artists that headmired the work of?
JD: Well, I couldn't really say one name inparticular. He loved all type of hard work. He loved to go to the museum. Soit's hard to say whom he admired. The only one I ever heard him talk about wasNorman Rockwell.
BB: When he was working from home, would youdeliver the artwork? Would you take it to the post office? You were thedelivery person?
JD: Yes. Oh yes.
BB: Because Lindy would talk about the samething. If Dick took it into the city, when he was taking it into Timely comics,that was an afternoon wasted because that was an hour or two hours away fromthe drawing table. So you were the delivery person.
JD: That's right. That's what I meant about whatwe were complaining about when we're together. And also we do all the driving.
BB: That can be really rough, sending it in bymail. Was there ever any times where a job was lost?
JD: No, not really. If it was lost, it was fine.Not that I ever remember that anything was ever lost for good. But I lost a lotof work from Dan. I left a portfolio in a taxi that we were taking to aconvention in New York - a value of 4000 dollars of work. Actually, he alwayssaid it was his best work. It was never found.
BB: Oh no! When the conventions start rollingaround, you guys are almost partners in terms of your the sales person outthere, he's drawing-
JD: I felt terrible. I went to every policestation in New York that day. One fan of Dan's went with me because I was sosure that somebody was going to return it because all the work was signed. Danhad just bought a new portfolio so he didn't have his name on it.Naturally, we learned throughexperience that if you take a taxi that you must ask for a receipt. On thereceipt they have the name and number of the taxi and you could get in touchright away with the cab. But I didn't know that. I paid him. Dan was alreadyout of the car and I before I realized the taxi was already gone.
BB: You realized right there on the street?
JD: I kept calling for weeks just to see if itwas at the police station in the lost and found because Dan did the same thingone time. He left his portfolio but he was more fortunate because it was sentback to him.
BB: He left it in a taxicab too?
JD: I don't remember where he left it.
BB: How supportive was he when you left it in thecab? Was he like, "I've done that before, don't worry about it."
JD: I thought he was going to be so furious. Thisis one thing I'm not going to be able to get away with. He's going to get soangry with me but no, he said, "it's done - it's done. If it's gone, it'sgone." He understood that I always had so much in mind. I try to always makelife much easier for him. I take on more than I should.
BB: That's a common theme among a lot of artists'wives. What's something you would have taken upon yourself that your referringto here?
JD: I know that Dan had gone through so much withhis health – the care and the time he had to take for that.
BB: So you're talking the later years then?
JD: Yes.
BB: Who was the person who took on the householdfinances back in the fifties and sixties?
JD: Dan always did that.
BB: He felt comfortable doing that? A lot ofartists are so focused on creating that a lot of the wives have to end uppicking up the other things around the household, things maybe normal 9 to 5erswouldn't have to do just so the husband could create and draw.
JD: Yes, it's the same thing in replacing thatbulb, or trying to find a door that doesn't lock anymore. You know, all theselittle chores that men sometimes had to take on.
BB: So you had to do more of that just to allowhim to draw?
JD: Definitely.
Follow-up taped Sunday June 9th, 2002, by phone from New York for "IHave To Live With This Guy!"
JD: When he was going to Art School, he said theguys would yell after him, "you are wasting your time, DeCarlo!" He didn'twaste his time.
JD: They used to get together in Pennsylvania atFred Waring's - "The Man Who Taught America How To Sing!" - Estate. He wouldinvite all the artists once a year and Dan won third prize in the golftournament. I went down with Dan all the time and got to meet Jackie Gleason.He was exactly the same in person as you saw on the screen. He was a very funnyguy. He liked to drink, too! In between working at home, he would practice his putting.
BB: Is there one cute story about Dan's fans? Aspecific story about a fan of Dan's that "warmed his heart"? Do youremember a specific fan letter that Dan treasured and did he tell you why hetreasured it?
JD: A couple of fan letters Dan saved in hisalbum. One was from his nephew, for whom Dan had done a cartoon, and it said,"Dear Uncle Dan, thank you for your moose picture. I am in cub scouts. How'sAunt Josie. I show my moose picture to my friend and he likes it. Yours truly,Michael." And then on the back, he put, "because my brother is too young, hecould not write to you, so I'll make him sign."            Thingslike this, Dan kept. He used to get SO much fan mail, and couldn't havepossibly kept them. There was another nice one from a girl. She sent Dan apicture and said, "Dear Dan, I was so ecstatic and thrilled when I opened thepackage from you. I know you are busy, so I was happy to know you remember me.I love (and she put 'love' all different ways) the pin-up and the Betty andVeronica story. It is really a special honour to own this item. They are now mymost treasured possession. Thank you for making a dream come true. I just foundanother old Josie from February 1968. Pepper was still around, and I lookforward to your stories and covers. Sometimes I think my daughter like thecovers the best. It was certainly a huge point in my life to meet you. Myfriends are tired of hearing about it." That was from 1997, when he went to aMuseum with an Archie Group.            Therewas a woman who took art class and she made a stain-glass window of Betty andVeronica. It took her a year and then she gave it to Dan about five years ago.It's on the door of his studio. It's takes up about a third of the door. It'squite big and she has Betty and Veronica down to their wastes. She even putreal earrings on their ears. She was inspired so much by Dan's work that shecouldn't keep it for herself.An art teacher in Seattle, a Mr.Hatcher, would teach his group of students (around nine to fourteen years old)cartoons. When we met him in Seattle, he took the children on Sunday as a fieldtrip to meet Dan to have him talk to them. When Dan went to the hospital forthe first time, in the winter of 2000, for his pneumonia, they all drew himsomething, all the drawings in a big envelope, and sent him a get well card. Istill have all those cards.When he passed away, they sent memore condolences. A 14-year-old girl, in particular, is going to be a greatartist for her age. She sent a letter and picture of a little girl crying, herhair covering part of her mouth and eyes, and the tears are coming down. Theletter said, "When you lose someone, it is like your life falls apart. Cloudsseem to cover you, but really a person never dies in your heart. As long as heis there, he will never leave. The love in your heart stays strong and purealways, and the dark clouds shall disappear and the sun will shine through. Behappy, for he hasn't truly left you. He's here shining through you."He would just be happy to read aletter, and sometimes I would have to grab them out of his hand before he woulddiscard it. You can't keep everything.            Ireally became friendly with Lindy Ayers. The conventions were all new to me. Ididn't know what would happen, or what I would have to do. She took time tohelp me and show me the easy way to set up the tables. We did a lot oftraveling together.            Wewere stuck two days in an airport trying to go to Detroit, stuck in a bigstorm. The two artists would discuss business and start sketching. Every twohours, we would go to see if it was going to be the next plane, and by 11pm,they told us there wouldn't be any next plane and to come back at 5 a.m.! Welost one day of the convention, doing sketches, and when we arrived we werevery tired having to set up.            Lindymade things easier for me, and even now I still give her a call when I havequestions to say, "what should I do about this?" She taught me to pack a littlesnack when going to conventions, and now I pack some crackers whenever I go.
BB: You say, to communicate early on, you had touse dictionaries and cartoons. Are there any funny stories that came aboutbecause of the language barrier?
JD: He would do cartoons and would try and writethe captions in French! At least he was trying! When I met Dan, I gave him apicture of me when I was 16 years-old, just as the War was going to start. Hewrote on the back, "Jo Jo Dumont, age sixteen-and-a-half - still no sign ofbrains, Dr. Dan."
BB: You say Dan was a shy guy early on? Is therea story that would symbolize this?
JD: When we met, his shyness came from meetingpeople out of his country. He was more cautious. He was just studying everyone.He would ring my doorbell and I would open it, but there was no one there. Ialways had to look out because he would always step aside to hide. His shynesswas superficial and he quickly outgrew it.            Forthe rest of his life, he used to love to tease the ladies. When he passed someof the ladies he knew, he would poke some of them in the back with his finger,but go so fast that they would turn around and not see anybody! On the cruise,when we had the costume party, he had dressed like a safari hunter with theshorts, the white hat, and cacky pants. He had a gun with a cork on it, andwould shoot the cork into all the ladies' derrieres! He never got slapped inthe face once!
BB: Is there a specific story about the FedericWertham and the Comics Code Authority during the '50s and how much turmoil itcaused?
JD: Dan changed his style. He couldn't not drawthe voluptuous women of Humourama. Dan went to Archie and started to draw theteenage girls, so it didn't affect him as much. We felt it a bit at thebeginning, but it didn't really last. People would ask questions and would wantto know if comics were really that bad.
BB: What kind of music would he listen to backthen when drawing?
JD: He loved Frank Sinatra and Linda Ronstadt. Hefound it was music he could listen to and work at the same time. He liked DeanMartin, and jazz – mostly popular songs that were easy to listen to whenworking. He listened to music not loud, but always in the background. GeneColan would be making them fly!
BB: Any more stories about Vincent and Dan asartists?
JD: Vincent was in the Korean War. When he cameback, Dan said, "you can draw – you are good. We should work together." Danwanted him to learn so he said, "I'll teach you." Vincent never went to artschool, like Dan did, but they were all artistic in his family, like hisfather.
BB: Can you relate some examples of Dan's senseof humour?
JD: When he was a teenager at home, he had fourgirls to tease and his sisters said he was always making them laugh. He was theolder brother, and Vincent was the last born. I think Vincent could have reallybecome a good artist, if he hadn't died so young.
BB: Any other stories about his days working onArchie?
JD: When he first starting working for Archie,Dan would go into New York once a week to the offices. When they moved toMerrimac, Dan would go to Archie at least every other day. He never workedthere – he always worked at home.            Danhad a studio outside of the home when the kids were young, and then moved backhome. He had the studio with Rudy Lapick was inking for Dan because he wantedhim to right there to supervisor. The inkers sometimes could sometimes be verygood, and keep the line like the pencils, and others would not follow. Dan wasalready concerned about that and he thought Rudy would do better if Dan wasright there.            Dan'sstudio was about a fifteen minute drive from our place – maybe about fiveminutes more for Rudy because he was in Yonkers. It was above an art supplystore.            Whenhe would go to Archie once a week to bring the art there, he would socialize abit. Some of the artists would go have a bite to eat. That was Dan's night out!J            Hewould go in every other day because he was working at a much faster pace.
BB: You say "I was always surprised, how canyou always draw something different everyday? How did he do? Coming down in themorning and having to look at a blank sheet of paper and having to putsomething down." Did he tell you how he came up with ideas all the time?Did he do something to inspire himself?
JD: He always had ideas. He would think of ideaswhen he was eating his breakfast. He didn't wait to be face-to-face with thepaper. Sometimes he would voice what he was going to do. He also loved to workwith a good writer when they understood each other. He loved to work withGeorge Gladir. Same thing with Stan Lee. When they worked together, they understoodeach other.            Whenhe was working for Archie, he would get full scripts. He did write sometimes,but he felt that was keeping him up during the night! He was not meant to be awriter, as he prefered to draw.
BB: You say "Well, he realized that hedidn't want to work for them any longer. They gave him that terrible lettertelling him that he was no longer needed. But it's also the fact that he wasbeginning to get very unhappy about what was happening." What was hespecifically getting unhappy about at Archie?
JD: He never really got that much recognition. Hewas getting paid, but he was creating not just Josie, but plenty of newcharacters. He was their man, their most important artist. There were someother who were very good, also, but Dan was also coming up with new ideas, andnot to be recognized after so many years working with the company, it wasdisappointing. Particularly when you don't have even a pension. My job wascertainly not as important as my husband's and I got a pension.            Theygave Dan that letter because he was voicing his displeasure. He was makingwaves. On the day he got the letter, he had already discussed with me before hewent, and said, "Josie, I think today is going to be the day. What do youthink?"            Isaid, "Dan, I've always let you make all the decisions about your career. I cangive you my opinion, but I can't tell you what to do." He said, "but how wouldyou feel?" and I said, "it's not going to change anything between you and I. Ifyou have something to say, say it!" I was very supportive because I knew whatmy husband did for that company.            Hewasn't going there to say, "I'm not going to work here anymore" but that he wasexpecting something more.            Thatwas the day they gave him the letter. They were prepared to give him theletter. They knew he was coming. He did think something might happen, thatthere might be fireworks, but who would have an idea after so many years, to doit so cruelly. When Dan came home, he had to be sad, but he didn't want to showit. I was sad for him. He was worried about all responsibilities because wewere raising a teenager. Dan always felt very responsible for all of us.            Itwas cruel! Dan was already getting on in years. It was the same at the funeral.They didn't send any condolences. I don't care what occurs between people –sometimes you must do what you are supposed to do. Not a word of condolence,and from Victor, just one card – a store-bought card, signed. We receivedhundreds and hundreds of cards and letters and people took time to writeletters, but not Archie Comics.            Victorwas the middle man. Goldwater and Michael Silberkleit.
BB: Can you tell me the story about when youdecided to sue Archie? How much influence did you have? What obstacles did yourun into? Any specific stories about the hardships you faced with the lawsuit?Was there one particular person who supported you?
JD: We didn't really think of suing right away,but we said we have to find a lawyer, to see what our rights are. We werehoping for a percentage on the merchandise. Maybe also a little bonus forcreating the characters. We received no severance pay, nothing.            Iwas supporting him completely because, at that point, my husband needed to dowhat he felt he had to do. In the back of my mind, I was worried. It's the wearand tear on people, but it's probably the same for them, since it's not overfor either party.            Thefans and all the articles were a big help. That's when we started to go toconventions. That was very good for Dan because they would come and say, "it'svery unfair what they are doing to you. We feel bad for you." It was very goodfor Dan to think so many people were behind him. People would come to Dan for asketch and stand there and watch him draw.            Danhad no problem having someone stand over his shoulder when drawing. The kidswould join him in his home studio, and say, "Poppie, why don't you do this?"Dan said, "they think they're better artists than me!" Dan liked all theircriticism because they wanted to feel part of it.
BB: You say, "I raised my hand and said, 'Ihave an idea, let's have group therapy,' and everybody laughed. We complainabout the same things. 'Let's wash our dirty laundry together!" Any otherinteresting stories about "the same things" you and other wives wouldhave to go through married to an artist?
JD: It's funny that the husbands want us to go tothe conventions, but then we don't see them because when we get there, theartists stay glued together!            Dantook care of all the bills, and it is difficult for me now because I have to doit. But if something was broken, I had to try to figure out who I was going tocall to come and repair. Dan was not a handy man. I would say to Dan, "if weturn this faucet off..." and he would say, "no, that won't do it," and I wouldsay, "yes, I'll show you!" In the meantime, he was vert smart since he wasgetting me to do it! "Let's put a chair against that until the repair mancomes," and he would say, "Okay!" and fly out of the room, so as not to getinvolved. Fortunately, he had a lot of good childhood friends who he would getto help out.
BB: Do you remember the worst instance where hewas feeling creatively frustrated with a piece of work? What was the work thatyou remember giving him the most frustration?
JD: Once in a while, he would call me in and Iwould have to hold an object, or bend in a certain way for what he was doing.It's very difficult to work with hands. If someone in the story was carryingsomething, he wanted to capture what it looked like to wrap your fingers aroundsomething. It coudl have been a vase, or a book. Everybody has a different wayof holding things. "How would you hold that?" he would ask me.
BB: When you would go on vacation, would he takea sketchbook?
JD: No, but he would draw on all the tableclothsand we'd come home with this material! He would sketch a building he saw.Whenever we went out for dinner with the children, he was constantly sketchingon paper napkins.            Oncein a while, I would have feelings of neglect, but when he would start to sketchlike that, the kids would join in and sketch too, and I would be picking up allthe pieces of the 'masterpiece' the children were doing. He would always askthe waiter, "can I borrow your pencil?" and they would sometimes say, "if youwill sketch me!"            Wehad this wonderful trip in Canada with Ida and Joe Edwards, one of the threeimportant artists at Archie (with Stan Goldberg). Joe said to me, "I don'tthink Archie understood the importance of the three of us." They should havesent those three men places to promote.            Somebodyhad got in touch with Joe in the mid-'90s – a man named Paul from Edmonton –and he wanted to buy as much artwork as we would sell. We met him in New York,and he invited us in his home, and we had a great time. They took useverywhere. We went to Toronto, the CN Tower. It was so nice to have themalmost treat the artists like celebrities when the men felt they had so littlerespect in the office.
BB: How often would Stan and Joe and Dan see eachother?
JD: When the office was in New York, they wouldall go in once a week. When they moved up here, it was difficult to make thetrip because they lived in Long Island.            Danwent more often because they gave more deadlines to Dan because they knew hewas close to the office, and if they had a rush on something, they would callDan, and he would go. Sometimes, I was a little annoyed with that. I said,"you're in the middle of doing something, and they're interrupting you." Theothers got away without having to put in as many appearances.
BB: What was Stan Goldberg like?
JD: You them together and they glue toeach other. At the museum in Long Island, it was wonderful to see themtogether. There was no jealousy amongst the artists. They admired each other'swork. They would exchange ideas on how they do things. Stan is a littleyounger, and Joe is not feeling well, and is probably not working very muchright now.            We'dsee them at the Christmas parties, and then they stopped them. First, the wiveswere invited to the party and then that all changed.