Here I stand, I can do no other

This is the blog post that I never wanted to write, but I owe it to all genderqueer and trans* writers and readers out there. I'm hoping that my experience may serve to make the "community" a safe place for us – others like me. At present, I don't know if the aftermath of this – action, reaction, consequence, if I understand correctly – will allow my Muse to survive. After this, I frankly don't know if I'll have the strength to go on writing using this name and this identity. This Self.

I've taken most of this from an email I sent a prominent blogger. I've changed names to protect the innocent and the guilty both.


The Call

I could quite literally write a book about my experiences and my thoughts on the matter. If something almost kills you, it's bound to provoke some Heavy Thinking. So apologies as this is going to be long.

I did not want to get involved in this at all. I've been "outed" several times on the internet. A former co-writer of mine who's seen me in RL has repeatedly outed me. I have been referred to on the internet as "one vicious tranny". A gay guy I've met in my London-based writing group has only recently outed me to a violently hateful group, then added smugly that he was now going home to "have real gay sex".

These experiences are rather typical, I'm afraid. It's why I only meet people in person as a writer who I trust to not go out there and tell the world who I "really" am (as we can see, my judgment is less than perfect - friends can turn to enemies rather more quickly than I like, especially when writers are involved).


Refusal to Heed the Call

This is not to accuse. I feel awful for first trying to stay invisible and secondly trying to ignore it, while my trans* friends were/are suffering because they are "out" about their status, while I was busy telling myself "I'm a writer, not a human rights activist".

Yeah, I guess Ezra Pound was just a poet, too.

The loss of "safe space" thanks to the rabid hate mob is probably at the core of the issue why I've put my stuff on hold. I originally bought into the myth how "tolerant" and "accepting" "our" "community" is. Well, it is, if you're gay and physically, born, genetic male. There's a worship of the cock going on I find a little disturbing.

Regardless - one thing I believe is incredibly important in this debate is to drive home - in some minds at least - the difference between "coming out" and "passing".


Crossing the First Threshold

For sexualities other than straight, "coming out" is a traumatic, cathartic rite of passage, that, yes, creates that "gay identity", which from then on is visible. I was very relieved when I realized, actually, I'm bisexual, and it's OK to be that. I can love a person rather than a set of genitals. Being bi is, obviously, being under a "general suspicion" of cheating and being generally not trustworthy. Many lesbians tell a bisexual woman she's not "real" because she got her rocks off - even once - with a guy. Many gays call a bisexual man a "gay in denial". I do believe I never deceived anybody about my sexuality. I've gotten my rocks off with trans* people, with men and women, and it was fun every time. I'm not ashamed.

But yeah, "coming out" usually means that the enormous pressure that non-straight people live with is lifted. Wow, suddenly you float. The thing that made you consider suicide? Gone. People actually still smile at you. Some even call you brave - what a boost after you've spent most of your life cringing away and hoping that people will leave you the fuck alone, or at least not look into your head.

Now, "passing" is different. Trans* people live with this enormous pressure, but it never leaves. It's a miracle I'm alive. Between 16 and 21, I was constantly considering suicide. Then my mother died a painful, drawn-out death from cancer. And I thought "okay, throwing away a healthy, functional body is a waste and who are you to end your life when others are desperate to draw even one more breath and don't have that choice?"

Every time I considered suicide, I would remember my mother's face, just wisps of her gorgeous rich mahogany hair left, the skull visible as a herald of impending death, as she was weighing only 80 or 90 pounds. Who am I to kill myself when I'm healthy and not physically suffering?


Tests, Allies, Enemies

Then the internet. Online communities. I chose a neutral name (vashtan) and realized there's freedom in that. I've kept vashtan's gender neutral - I did not want to "deceive" anybody. Ever.

My first publications. Getting AlexANDER W. added into my German passport? HUGE rush. Unspeakable relief. The front was still lying, but the back - oh, the glorious back, the bit under "Pseudonym or Religious Name" - it finally spoke the truth. I'd become, legally, in a small part, black-on-green, Alexander W., ridding me in one fell swoop of a last name I've inherited from a wife-beating rapist father AND the wrong gender.

I was Alexander. I couldn't wait to tell everybody. The bloom rounded, tightened, seams began to appear. It was ready to burst.

I read everything about the issue. MTFs, FTMs, Intersex, intergender, trans*, genderqueer... suddenly I had words for that deep-seated unease that told me my very BONES were all wrong. Suddenly the "wow, YOU are a real man." Suddenly, all my games as a child - always the knight serving the lady, always the fighter, the bodyguard, the protector of the weak - suddenly made sense. Why even as a small child I bristled when somebody called me a "pretty girl". I wasn't. I was a boy. Imagine the heartbreak when boys at some point told me I couldn't play with them because I had long hair. I liked my long hair. I wasn't ready to give it up so I could play with the other boys. Non-conformist to the end, I guess. Boys had short hair, I refused to fit in, hence I was ousted.

Thus expelled from the boys, I tried to join the girls for company. They told me I was a boy - wild, physical, competitive. I also didn't give a toss about the current crush on some boy band. I just wanted to belong somewhere.

I didn't. I found, in the end, a bunch of outsiders who'd hang around me, because I had cool ideas and made up fun games. We were still the outsiders on the playground, but we were at least damned well entertained.


Ordeal

When my body developed, I prayed for it all to go away. I think the reason why I'm still here is largely because of one of the most powerful characters I've ever had. Silvio basically told me I was being a dumb asshole for staring at the pills in my hand and that my vertigo should at least keep me jumping from that bridge. Through all that, I've had friends (who had no idea - as far as they were concerned, I was just a bit of a tomboy), but as we've seen through things like Trevor and It Gets Better, friends sometimes aren't enough. I was a firm believer in reincarnation, but something always held me back from "trying again", as I called it back then. Reload. What's your return policy, universe?

For whatever reason, the male persona I built (or, arguably, that I am) helped me cope with the increasing pressure. Somebody calling me "Mr. Voinov" (which is just a translation of "Herr W.") takes the pressure off. It makes me smile, but there's always a tang of pain in it, too. Calling me "sir" is like if somebody tells you you're gorgeous and actually means it.

I'm coming back to "passing" now. To a trans* person, "passing" as his/her real gender is - unspeakably liberating. Suddenly, the pressure around you eases. You can BREATHE. You can even be yourself. I can't count how often I've been told I write "masculine", or even "hyper-masculine". I was told, when I started out, to write under a male pseudonym, as "the female style" is different - and women prefer books written by women, especially historicals. Or: "What woman cares about war, soldiers, or politics? They want woman issues." (Which, presumably, is about courtship, het sex, child-rearing and covering their husband's flank.) This drove me away from trying to make it in the historical mainstream - I never managed to get my head around "woman issues" - talk about biographical blocks.


Reward/Seizing the Sword

Fast forward a few years. Passing for male has quite literally enabled me to be a productive, positive member of human society. Give what I have to give - mentor, teach, give and write. I can give these because the pressure was off, the pressure keeping me contained, pressuring me into something I am emphatically NOT. If you expend all your energy fighting other people's perceptions, you have no energy left to do the important stuff, the constructive stuff.

Under such considerations, things like "I'll sell five more books if people believe I have a flesh dick dangling between my legs" aren't just laughably trivial - they don't even register. I've heard people say that they prefer women-written books to mine because "Voinov is clearly a male writer - like all of them, it's all heartless sex and violence, he just doesn't "get" romance." Some way of "passing", that! (But, hell, I take it.)

The thing is, tearing our protection away - negating our "passing" - is as traumatic as if a jeering mob out on the street were ripping your clothes off to laugh at the shape of your breasts or labia or dick and balls. I can't possibly express the amount of distress that my trans* writer friends have felt over the mob's desire to rip their clothes off. As far as I'm concerned, I have bigger balls and a bigger dick than a huge amount of born and bred males.

My sense of honour and personal integrity made me step up in defense of my trans* friends, most of whom have been bullied into submission and are scared of being made a target next. We'll all been there before. Most gay guys consider us women (I've heard some of the most vile, trans* phobic comments from gay men) – most women consider us women and do everything in their power to help society re-assert the gender binary. (Those are generalizations - I've encountered a lot of extremely supportive women of all stripes.)

While most gay men laugh us off as "not real men" (like I have to assert my masculinity to every gay man out there - even those I don't want to sleep with!), many women are truly vicious - "how dare she!"

I've always held the belief that the female hostility to trans* people is really a loathing of the traditional female role. Tearing our clothes off in public is a way to act against the "unlawful claiming of a more liberated gender". Men ARE more powerful in this society, and trans* men are seen as those refusing the female gender (while, in actuality, we're not refusing anything - it's not what we are and most of us feel an extreme disconnect to any perceived female role). We're damaged, freaks, deficient. Worse, we're cheaters, liars, impostors. We're claiming the "male privilege" not to be belittled, and maybe we even end up wielding power and authority and have respect. Yeah, how DARE we.

Some of us shrink away under the onslaught of hostility and pressure, cringing. So at war with ourselves, few of us are strong enough to fight against ourselves AND against the rest of the world. ONE of those battles is plenty.

Every time a specific prominent blogger attempts to out the most high-profile male-representing author in our genre, I want to rip her head off. Has nobody ever considered that this writer is actually who he says he is? Or would the fact that he's a prominent, visible, highly successful - and much-loved - writer in the genre have anything to do with it? The message to us trans* writers is, very much: Don't stick your head out, or we'll chop it off. Beyond a certain level of success, people are envious enough to jump on anything that makes a person vulnerable.


The Road Back

Frankly, I knew that launching Riptide would potentially "blow my cover". Who on earth is interested in trans* literature but a trans* person - and who at Riptide is clearly NOT a female? The fact that I'm being represented by an avatar, the fact that I'm not answering questions about my gender (and many tried asking them, which tells me it's something people feel they have a right to know about in detail) or what I think about women writing gay sex, or whether I get turned on when writing sex (yeah, sweetheart, want the number of inches too?) - all that immediately sparks suspicion.

The more visible I am - the more interviews I've given - the more that old pressure has come back. I've been told I'm too "soft", or "too gentle", or "too understanding", (or "too nice/generous") that a specific turn of phrase is feminine - up to my use of emoticons. People are scrutinizing everything I do - on Twitter, Facebook, there were people even re-posting blog entries from LJ that I've locked away to be only seen by friends. The pressure was mounting. Clearly, being anything but female draws suspicion, but I refused to be driven into neurosis by it. I am who I am, who I say I am.

The whole debate never considered the trans* issue. Just look at the words used: It was always "women parading as men", "women appropriating gay identities for gain and profit" or "women lying/cheating because they are sociopathic liars". It's like you're walking out in the streets, and suddenly, everybody's clothes are being ripped off and the crowd inspects us, naked, whether we pass. The border controls in the US are so intrusive that many US-based trans* people have stopped travelling. *I* am not going to fly to the US because I don't want some guy give me a body cavity search. The trans* body is more delicate, more complicated and a hell of a lot more fragile, even if you're built like an American Football player.

But while the debate went that way, us trans* writers were incapable of stopping it. Everybody speaking out on behalf of trans* writers knew that they would have their identity questioned. I was incredibly reluctant, because not only did I do a good job of "passing", but because I never saw myself as an activist for anything (I believe most of society's ills would go away if people were holding themselves to higher moral standards and realize that serving others means serving yourself).


Death

Basically, I didn't want to open myself up to the trans* phobia out there - I didn't want my gay friends to suddenly consider me as a "transman", which always means "not real man" (talk about worship of the cock) - always. Once that "trans* is attached, it conjures up images of a more or less believably mutilated female body, a more or less healthy mind inhabiting it. By being "trans", we're "less". Less strong, less healthy, less male or female. From "male" or "female", we turn into "not quite" and "less" in society's perception.

I also didn't want to speak on behalf of trans* writers. We're still all individuals, and while I know at least, off the top of my head, 7-8 genderqueer/trans* writers – and boy, their talent, how much they have to give this community that hounds them so! - I'd never claim any kind of leadership here.

Basically, I was "passing" and working behind the scenes. Every trans* writer out there knows my status. I've encouraged writers to write and share their stories (rather than lock them away for fear of BEING VISIBLE and hence VULNERABLE), telling them the community was "safe"; people were "different here". Oh hell, was I wrong, and as the lynch mob of the M/M Goodreads Group and a number of bloggers and HUNDREDS of bigoted commentators descended upon us, my heart bled for my friends who went out there and fought or hid under the same old stone of crushing guilt and self-doubt.

It's not that we don't want to be "out" - I admire both Danny Juris and Bryl Tyne for the way they go out there and represent. My choice was different. I worked behind the scenes, working subtly, helping trans* people (you start to recognize them after a while, it's like gaydar, also, I'm really good at reading people), supporting my brothers and sisters, while still "passing" as male to a society and community I simply didn't trust to "get" it. Get me (yeah, and tell me I was wrong… I was not).

I simply refused to write emails or blog posts like this one I'm writing right now to every person out there emailing me who'd doubted what I told them. Doubted my integrity over the use of a pronoun – a use that has kept me sane and productive. This is stuff I almost killed myself over – I don't believe somebody paying 3-7 bucks for any given story I've written deserves to know all this or has a right to it, let alone a moral right in the interest of "customer transparency", as the moderators of the M/M Goodreads Group have claimed, to wild cheering and shows of support.

I believe that the exact geography of my genitals is my – very personal - privacy issue. Once you tell people you're trans*, the next question is about when you'll have the operation. My body then suddenly turns into the gore-encrusted battlefield of somebody else's gender perceptions, like it's not my body at all, like I no longer have any power over it, and can't be trusted to shape it when and how I want.

At the end of the day, a trans* person is only seen as valid once their bodies conform to what cisgendered people consider acceptably male or female. If you're not having the operation (because the attempt to make a dick always results in something that most trans* men consider laughably inadequate, let alone somewhat gross-looking) - you're not valid. At the very least, people want to know whether I've started testosterone yet. Which is a question like "do you still beat your wife" - once you step onto that battlefield, you can only lose.

I chose to act as I did not to deceive anybody. I did it to find a way to live in dignity. To not spend most of my time and energy fighting a battle I cannot win. You know, because every hour I spend begging for acceptance - from very often bigoted assholes - is an hour I don't spend writing.

I chose to live as a man over explaining - for the rest of my life - why people should please, please PLEASE "allow" me to be a man, if you please, if it's not too much of an imposition, if that's OK with you, sorry to disturb your ideas of male and female a little, there. There, there, let me be invisible instead so nobody gets their assumptions challenged.

Fuck that.

I'm a proud man, I've fought and worked extremely hard for what I have achieved. I'm not used to asking anybody for their leave to be what I am. I try to act as an ethical person, supporting my male, female, trans* and queer friends, writers or not. My mother taught me to live my life in a way that I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning, every morning. Whether I look in that mirror while shaving should be irrelevant.

I'm not ashamed of myself, or my friends. I don't believe I owe anybody anything. No born and bred male - or what I call "genetic male" - has to explain why he's a man. And no woman has to explain why she's female. It's just us who are questioned, exposed and harassed the moment we show one weakness, and people react shocked and have the BALLS to be OUTRAGED when we, like a hermit crap, desperately scamper to protect our soft bellies?

I've received so many emails - before I made the blog post – about "who or what are you really"? My policy has always been, if somebody asks me, personally, in private, what I am, I do the "bees and flowers" talk. Not because I don't want to lie, but because I believe people that are actually asking might actually want to know. And I have the hope that once everybody knows at least one trans* person, they will stop harassing the others.

Maybe it's time for the T in the alphabet soup to fight for our rights, but maybe it's clearer now why we don't. It's tearing away our passing, it questions the identity we fought so hard - often against physical violence, harassment, bullying, depression, addiction and all-round derision from men and women both - to build and maintain, as we have to, to have even a shot at sanity and happiness.

I've been tempted so often to tell those people "if you need to know the shape of my genitals, you are not my friend". Which is an, I believe, understandable response, but it's also really defensive.

I don't like hurting people like that. I *still* DON'T WANT TO HURT PEOPLE THAT HURT ME, can you imagine?

Sorry for the long, long, LONG diatribe - I want to make sure everybody understands where I'm coming from, my position, my experiences that obviously shape everything I am and how I respond to the threats of my identity. I've never seen myself as an activist or a figurehead.

I've received an email - from a gay guy - telling me "to come out and be done with it". He felt that my refusal to "come out" was the ONLY thing that drove me out of the genre and this way he wouldn't be robbed of my stories. There it is - a gay guy who mistakes the roles and energies at work in "coming out" and "passing".

No, it's the prospect of being paraded naked in front of the jeering mob. No catharsis for me. No happy rainbow-flag waving gay family to welcome us. No gay identity to claim for us. All we can claim is visible, exposed, naked, soul-crushing Freakhood.

For me, "coming out" is the closest thing to destruction I've come in six years, after I stumbled, blind with tears (and I never cry), away from the London-based trans*men meeting, and considered whether I should just end it all under the Tube train on the way home. Boy, was that tempting.


Resurrection?

I'm still not sure how I should - need to - respond to it all. Do we trans* writers NEED a figurehead? Do I owe anybody to come out as a deficient male? Do I have to turn myself into a martyr for the baying mob, just because I'm writing some sexy, plotty stories about how people survive adversity and find love and redemption? Do I owe it? Do I want to read a hundred comments pouring down the hatred of me and my kind when Dear Author posts "Aleksandr Voinov Comes Out as Trans Writer" [Please, Dear Author people, don't use the word "she" or "her" when you do. Just this, please?]; do I deserve to be counted among those who are "Faking It" to quote the title of a blog post on Jesse Wave's m/m review blog? Do I?

I'm not a Trans Writer. I'm somebody who, barely, survived the journey to be male, with most of my dignity intact. I have toughened myself up enough to not flinch anymore at "vicious tranny". Like a young guy who hears "faggot" the first time, "tranny" makes me flinch. But if you keep hearing it, you stop flinching. The vicious thing about such words is that it takes a lot of flinching before you can embrace a word like that.

I don't want to fight. I don't want to spend the next years - or even the rest of my life - explaining over and over why I'm a man and not a defunct female, why I'm a man, not an impostor.

But there are kids in my community – in my true community, my true family. One little guy from Finland whose blog posts (I see them on LJ) are all about how he can't stop vomiting from the stress the community is under. Somebody who clawed his way back to sanity and has repeated told me I'm an "inspiration" and he loves me. Do I owe it to Oleg to "come out"? Should I take the barbs and arrows and poison? Should I, being strong and dignified and, as yet, unbroken, step forward BECAUSE I am strong? Do I owe people a chance to break me, in public, humiliate me and deride my writing as that of an impostor? How many emails will I get that express people's disappointment in my "deceit"? Do I stand even a remote chance to explain all this while keeping my honour and dignity intact?

Those are the main questions right now.

And now that I've done it on my blog, will I flinch at "vicious, deceitful tranny" comments or can I take it, chin held high?

And once it's over, can I still open a vein and WRITE FOR THOSE PEOPLE, keep telling that same story of hope and love triumphing over darkness? Can I? Am I strong enough?

And there I thought I could just write stories and entertain people. Tell them about hope, and love, and the amazing resilience of the human spirit. (And people are shocked I might tell those stories to an audience that will not tear me apart for what I am. Silly me, what am I thinking, withholding my only gift and talent from people spending a couple dollars while at the same time feeling entitled to know whether I have ovaries and what exactly I do in bed with my freak body.)

Bottom line - I hope the whole, sordid, undignified, toxic mess has at least led to some people questioning their assumptions about my tribe, my people, my friends and made the world on the whole less hostile for them. But me, I remain here, deeply conflicted. Is this worth the destruction of my identity?

And, will I ever reclaim enough of my dignity to write again with confidence and grace?

Will I?
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Published on November 15, 2011 12:27
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message 1: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov I'm determined to. Once I can calm down a bit. :)


message 2: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Awww, thanks, Lisa. I'm overwhelmed by the support and the kindness and generosity of "my" readers. You guys (and gals, and everybody in between) are awesome. Blowing my mind AND my socks off.


message 3: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper I left a longer message on your blog, but want to say I admire your strength and wish you well. And I know that the presence of V. and this whole mess, has inspired several writers (including me) to add trans characters to works in progress. Thus hopefully adding our voices to the call for acceptance and understanding (as close as we can come to getting it right, anyway.)
And you will write again; you are above all a writer.


message 4: by Lenore (new)

Lenore I'm still buoyed by that incandescent hope...


message 5: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Kaje - thank you. I'm hoping I'll grab a minute to respond to all the comments on the blog. Lots of really important issues that need to be addressed there, many stories of people emerging who seem to all breathe a collective sigh of relief.

If we're just portrayed as human, valid, real people in fiction, we'll win half the battle. I believe in the power of the written word - and of fiction - to help us (all members of the rainbow and allies) to make the world a more human place.

Lenore - It'll happen. It will all happen. Huge amount of liberated energy going on right now. Breathe deeply. And smile.


message 6: by Lenore (new)

Lenore Aleksandr wrote: "Lenore - It'll happen. It will all happen. Huge amount of liberated energy going on right now. Breathe deeply. And smile."

I will. Breathe deeply. And smile. As long as I feel you're happy, too. And that you'll stay around.


message 7: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov I'm here. Looks I just stepped on the Big Stage - creeping away is pretty much impossible now. :) (And unethical. I opened the can of worms, I'm gonna eat it now :) )


message 8: by Lenore (new)

Lenore You deserve nothing less than the Big Stage, love. And I mean that in the most positive way possible.


message 9: by Serena (new)

Serena Yates I left a longer post on your blog, but wanted to add my support here as well. You are one of the most courageous men I know and I admire you for taking this step (which, by no means was one you HAD to take). Thank you for doing it - I hope that it will be a wake-up call for the people who seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around this aspect of life.

It is good to have you back - kicking ass (not so much eating the worms, LOL).


message 10: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Lenore - I guess it just happened; I did try my best to wriggle out of it. :)

Serena - Thanks! I will respond more in-depth at my blog. So much stuff I want to say and that needs to say, and everybody deserves a considered response, which I want to take my time for. If we save just one kid/person from anguish, it's all good in my book.


message 11: by Adrian (last edited Nov 15, 2011 02:25PM) (new)

Adrian Anderson

Not sure who made it. But the thought is what counts!


message 12: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Yay, that makes me happy. Thank you. :)


message 13: by [deleted user] (new)

And, will I ever reclaim enough of my dignity to write again with confidence and grace?

Will I?


I think this entire blog post answers that question in the affirmative.


Lilli *slowest reader ever* Aleksandr, I'm deeply impressed by you and your blog post and totally in awe of your strength and courage. Thank you for putting yourself out there and letting me learn at your expense.

Lilli


message 15: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Kate Mc - it's all Silvio... "Giving up yet, bitch? Who do you think you are? You got stories to write, get going!" - he can be merciless. But first I have to ride out what I started here.

Lilli - Thank you for lending an open ear and an open mind for my story, which is really just one of many. People willing to learn, to understand and to cherish our many differences will make the difference. Thank you.


message 16: by Heather (new)

Heather Aleks, your courage is admirable. It is never easy to open yourself up for inspection, which ultimately leads to judgement, from those you love and trust, let alone an entire worldwide internet community. I'll say it again, your courage is admirable. It saddens me that you felt compelled to rationalize your "passing", WTF gives the community at large the right to judge you? or request interest in your life outside of your fiction?

I totally understand your sentiment, "I'm a writer, not a human rights activist". However, now it seems you are a reluctant yet motivating activist? And I support you. We don't "know" each other, but it's not required that I know you in order for me to know that this bullying is wrong.

I hope you'll continue on writing the books I want to read. Which means well thought out, well written characters, with emotion and conflicts I can relate to. I'll be honest, I'd like some M/M smut too! :)


message 17: by Td (new)

Td I don't know whether I'll "post" when I'm done. My main reason for being involved with GR is to find out about books. I don't care who writes the books. I simply want a good story. I don't follow blogs or gossip. I have no idea what is going on behind the books. But I'll admit I made a couple of pretty strong comments to some GR friends concerning a recent incident. It popped on the feeds, I backtracked to read the comments and I reacted in a private discussion. Basically my thought was, you got outed, it was messed up, deal with it. I can say now my insensitive reaction was due to ignorance. I didn't get it. So even though you don't owe me any type of explanations about anything and it would never occur to me to ask or demand such things from you or any author, I appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts and experiences. If it matters, know you helped open up my eyes and understand. I didn't know. All the best to you and thank you.


message 18: by Arzu (last edited Nov 15, 2011 03:17PM) (new)

Arzu You will. There is so much I would like to say to you, but I can't, I have trouble breathing. It's like I'm suffocating. You are so brave to make yourself so vulnerable, because you didn't need to do this. Like you said, we don't have the right to ask you to open up and share your life with us.

Wenn ich es konnte, wuerde ich jetzt meine Gedanken und Gefuehle zum Ausdruck bringen, aber ich kann es nicht. Was auch immer passiert und wozu du dich entscheidest, ich wuensche dir alles gute im Leben.


message 19: by Sarasaya (new)

Sarasaya Look at what you're doing.
You're so awesome.


message 20: by Nile Princess (new)

Nile Princess Not sure when this all started, or how or why, but I LOVE your writing. This week alone, I recommended The Lion of Kent to three people, so continue to do you. This post took a lot of courage, and, dare I say it, 'balls' so please take heart that there are people out here who support you, who appreciate your talent and are grateful that you share it with us. Your business is exactly that and you don't owe anyone anything. Continue to mentor those you can and keep yourself open to receive the good.


message 21: by K.Z. (new)

K.Z. Snow Shit, Aleks, this is a no-brainer. You know who you are infinitely better than anyone else ever will. How could someone not take your word for it?

I've always believed in Thoreau's admonition to "simplify, simplify!" So, in my world, there are two kinds of people: assholes and not-assholes. As long as you (or anyone, for that matter) fall into the latter category, you're okay by me. Everything else is immaterial.


message 22: by Rhi (new)

Rhi Etzweiler @K.Z. I always thought the categories were "human" and "wankjob" ... *scratches head*

Mister Voinov, you already know this and it's rather apparent it's not needed, but I love and respect you SIR. =) Always have, always will, comrade.


message 23: by DeWanda (new)

DeWanda Why the impertinence of people still amazes me I honestly don't know. I follow some authors more closely than others because I enjoy their writing, their stories, their voices. These are the most important things to me. I could care less about the authors private bits, it's really none of my business. People have been writing under pseudonyms for years and years and no one has ever really questioned that. And if they have I obviously haven't cared enough to find out. But now in this seemingly "small" & "welcoming" genre people feel "they need to know" more than necessary. Now this "need to know" is forcing writers to feel they should stop writing or changing their voices is simply wrong. If you can't just enjoy an author's voice without needing to know every little thing about them, move on to someone that fits what makes you feel warm and fuzzy. The rest of us that don't care or need to know will pick up the slack. I don't believe you ever lost any of your dignity, if you had I don't think you would have responded they way you have, and Congrats for that. Please keep writing in your voice and those of us that love it WILL keep reading


message 24: by Darkm (new)

Darkm And, will I ever reclaim enough of my dignity to write again with confidence and grace?

You will.
Aleksandr people have troubles with lies. You didn't deceive anyone. And you have every possible right be happy and proud of yourself.


message 25: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Heather - Thank you! (And yes, it looks very much like the sexy parts will keep coming). I'm reluctant because I don't want to make this about "me". If you choose to act as if you're representing a group of people, it has to be done with a lot of care and thought, and that's a huge battle to fight. THAT said, as many trans* and queer writers have expressed they agree with my sentiments, I'm OK to keep speaking up and out. I'm not sure it's activism, but it's certainly education, I hope, representation, and, I hope, an overall positive influence on the debate and community. Even if it's just lending a voice to those who prefer to keep "passing" and express their support in private. I just feel it's important to hear more trans* voices in this.

Td - We need to make sure that we keep "the recent incident" (and certain writer's deplorable behaviour towards their readers and fellow writers) completely divorced from the trans* issues. I'm not defending the certain someone, but even if you remove the trans* element in the discussion, there's plenty left over to discuss. In other words, even trans* people can be assholes. But it's important to not hit a whole group of people and removing their safe space and hound them out of the community because somebody has been an asshole, or, to put it more diplomatically, has acted in a deplorable, inexcusable way towards fellow writers and fans.

I feel the trans* and queer writers have been turned into collateral damage and we were dismayed because nobody would even consider our part of the discussion. The overspilling hostility towards us has been severely triggering for all of us, whether we choose to be "out" or not. All most of us want is to pass, be part of humanity and feel like we're respected, whatever our gender or sexuality. I think that part of the community was left choking in the rubble when things went nuclear. If we all understand better where we're coming from and gain new respect and understanding, then, hell, it's all worth it.

Arzu - much love. Hope you managed to catch some sleep there. :)

Sara - Nope, that's the community. Much going on behind the scenes, too - all constructive and fucking brilliant.

Nile Princess - thank you very much, also for the recommendation, your praise and the support. Once all this has settled a bit, I'm going to write "Lion's Share" with Kate. I know she's waiting for me to hand in my chapters. :) And, yes, keeping myself open to receive the good - that's a huge challenge at times, and very wise advice. I'll do my very best. Thank you.

Gianthogweed - Thank you. (First thing you read of me? Holy hell, what a start! :) )

K.Z. - Thanks! I agree - I think those two labels work fine. They definitely cover all angles. :)


message 26: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Rhi - *fist bump*

DeWanda - Thank you. I think part of this part and parcel of being an indie author. We all (authors and readers) jumped on the chance to be close to each other and talk direct. Unfortunately, it's a bit like with mobile phones - they appeared, and suddenly people talk out loud on the bus or while they are actually talking to somebody else.

*Manners* haven't caught up with technology. We basically have very little experience to fall back on where we can draw a line of how much we can - or should - share with each other, or how much we should be able to "demand" to know. I'm more open and communicative than most (because I really enjoy meeting new people and have become friends with many of my readers), and it's hard to draw the line in the sand and say "up to here, and, with all due respect, please do NOT cross this line, because this IS private." It's important to ensure that people don't feel they have to expose themselves to find readers, and that those who do reveal details about their private lives do so in a safe environment. I hope we all learn to use these methods of communication better over time. We'll learn from every experience.

Darkm - Yeah. The "lying" bit is really quite complex (oh dear, another long blog post). Almost every trans person out there has "tried on" a number of identities. I know trans men who were, at some parts in their lives, straight women, lesbians, bisexual women, transgendered, and trans male (or really: male) - anmd all of those were "true" identities and not lies.

Identity evolves, and there are many examples of that in the community, so I can't say "this person is a real XY, and this person is a faker." I wasn't born with an unshakeable faith/knowledge in what I am. It's something I developed/grew towards. And gods, the things people will do to be inconspicuous and invisible? Many of us pay a huge cost for our identity.


message 27: by Monica (new)

Monica Wow, this is deep. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I also can understand why you feel the way you do. However, I am very disappointed at some of the things you stated, even though you have a right to express whatever you want to say. What I am referring to is the name calling you have done about the GR MM Romance Group. I am a member of that group. A proud member. I don't have time to read a bunch of blogs or all of the posts in every single folder. I also did not make a negative comment about AJ, you, V or anyone else. So why did you feel that we are "the lynch mob of the M/M Goodreads Group?" Aren't you judging all of us by a few? Isn't that wrong?

You should never let anyone force you to quit what you want to do. Who the hell is anyone to get you to do that? They aren't important. Don't give anyone that power. I've been there done that and I know sometimes its easier said then done. You have to be you regardless of what anyone else thinks.

But I have to question how it is right for you to go after the things you didn't like that were said with equally negative comments directed at all? How does that make sense? I'm trying to understand how this all got blown up to this point and how it can be repaired.

What I do know is that it will take courage from all parties to take responsibility for the hurtful things that were said and to take time to reflect and acknowledge that we're not perfect, we can choose to forgive and move on in a more positive and open fashion and learn from our mistakes.

I just ask that you not do what you accuse others of doing to you. I wish you joy and happiness.


message 28: by Darkm (new)

Darkm Darkm - Yeah. The "lying" bit is really quite complex (oh dear, another long blog post). Almost every trans person out there has "tried on" a number of identities. I know trans men who were, at some parts in their lives, straight women, lesbians, bisexual women, transgendered, and trans male (or really: male) - anmd all of those were "true" identities and not lies.

But this is not what I call lying. Is rather a journey toward our place in the universe.
I'm sorry for your pain :(


message 29: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Hi Monica - thank you for your comment and your thoughts. I haven't actually called any names - I haven't called any individual out on their behaviour.

That said, a small, vocal group in the M/M Romance community has actively hounded, disparaged and bullied trans and queer writers. At least two moderators have been actively hostile and made transphobic statements. I have even received emails from a moderator of that group urging me "to come out and be done with it". Coming out is a deeply personal process and NOBODY should be outed against their will.

I've received emails from members of that community asking me "what" I am. (Not, not "who", but "WHAT". Words count, and attacks on my dignity as a human being were not welcome.) I've been told that the community is a "safe space" - well, I maintain that for trans and queer writers, it is anything but. I left that group in disgust, and I know others have too, for the same reasons.

A moderator of a GBLTQQ (alphabet soup) literature group - where a sizeable group of writers ARE trans, queer, gays, lesbians and other rainbow people - should ensure that there's no bullying going on. I am angered and saddened that somebody demanding to see our birth genders (and our publishers to POLICE that!) wasn't shouted down for the blatantly hostile, ignorant and transphobic nature of that - and many other - statements.

Telling me "oh, sure, we get a little passionate sometimes" as an excuse is NOT providing a safe space. And THOSE are the same people that collected money and videos for the anti-bullying campaigns? Sorry, but that is so ironic I struggle to express it.

I know that the vast majority of the group didn't take part in the bullying and hounding, but those who did - were left unpoliced, uneducated, and basically CHEERED for their blatant hostility.

So, a small - vocal - minority has given the group a bad name among trans* and queer writers, who, for the record, have donated money, interacted with their readers and donated a ton of free books to stuff the prize vaults - in return for being bitchslapped and people attempting to tear their clothes off in public.

It's been deplorable behaviour, and, yes, I'm calling this out. I'm sorry if you feel hurt and are innocent and caught in the collateral damage - like me. I put my identity on the line, so sorry if I hurt others by calling out hostile behaviour that reflects badly on all of us.


message 30: by Adrian (last edited Nov 16, 2011 04:35AM) (new)

Adrian Anderson @Monica: I don't think he was referring to everyone there in general. I think it was just as he said. The lynch mob over there, specifically them. I agree that most there are nice, though.

My confidence in Mod Lori has dropped. She PM'ed me saying that she closed the thread because she realized it was going downhill and had the potential to become very nasty (a bit too late if you ask me). She started it on the YA group first, saw it go downhill there. Then opened it on the main MM group despite seeing what happened on the YA group.

She closed it after I left and PM'ed me expressing sadness at how things turned out on the thread...and then goes right back to open it up again. I am all for freedom of speech but the mods there have done very little if anything to keep it within tasteful limits.


message 31: by Serena (last edited Nov 16, 2011 04:46AM) (new)

Serena Yates Darkm wrote: "But this is not what I call lying. Is rather a journey toward our place in the universe.
I'm sorry for your pain :( ..."


I think it IS more complex than that. The basic truth of most trans* people who want to live their lives being seen as the gender the feel they are, is that they are not lying when they state their real gender (as opposed to the genetic/biological one).

The sad fact is that when they are outed through circumstances, those people who do not understand trans* mentality and needs call it a 'lie', or 'deceit'.

It isn't. Like with Aleks, it is an attempt to live the way they want to live. Any outside influence that forces them to 'come out' is cruel, intolerant and causes huge mental and emotional suffering.

Does the attempt to 'pass' as the gender they feel they are sometimes necessitate what others would call a lie? Sure it does. Are mistakes made because the need to identify as a persona that reflects their inner gender is so pressing and urgent that they lose sight of some aspects of what they so? Quite possibly.

But, here is my question for you, Darkm, and for everyone who has doubts: when that person, who has been forced to come out due to others' actions, apologizes for all they have done wrong (the consequences of their need to be themselves) - who are we not to forgive them? Who are we not to give them at least the benefit of the doubt?

What is so different about 1) someone who was outed by force (a devastatingly cruel thong to happen to anyone), 2) someone who outs themselves because they feel they have to for moral or other reasons, and 3) someone who is ready to come out and does so as part of getting on with their lives?

Please don't forget that for many gay, lesbian and bisexual people the 'inner battle' is about coming out and TELLING the wolrd who they really are, so they can feel free and be themselves.

For most trans* people the issue is exactly opposite: the battle is about NOT HAVING TO TELL the world what their genetic identity is. So, using the same measurement to 'be open about who you are so you can be free' does NOT apply to them. In fact, it destroys their very soul to have to conform to that rule.

We need to understand and accept this if we want to earn the right to call ourselves open-minded and tolerant.


message 32: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Adrian - exactly. I've received a message from one of the mods expressing dismay that I would "attack" their group which has done SO MUCH for GLBTQQ people - all the money they collected, and how the discussions sometimes got "passionate" and how "everybody is entitled to their opinion".

Ironically, much hostility directed against rainbow people is pegged under "freedom of expression". You're allowed to speak your mind even if you're a hateful bully. Well, as it's freedom of expression, then I'm allowed to call them hateful bullies - and meanwhile not expose myself to hostility, ridicule or half-baked, ignorant statements.

What I have NOT received (not any trans or queer writer driven to despair by the goings-on) is an apology. All the community has done was launch a mutually congratulatory love fest of "but we didn't do anything wrong", while several trans and queer writers have left - and I urge them to all leave.

This space is toxic and destructive to us - and it's the moderators' job to change that, which means making sure it never happens again, taking the trans* and queer writers seriously and treating them with respect THEY DESERVE, and then issuing an honest-to-good sincere apology.

Telling me "we can't possibly police our members" tells me two things: a) it's not safe for me or or any trans/queer writer/reader to interact there, and b) they don't even care.

Until this vocal hate group is silenced, one way or other, I'd strongly suggest for all authors to leave the group and stop supporting it, but of course, every author can make that decision on their own.


message 33: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov @Serena - Bravo. EXACTLY. It's the HUGE difference between "coming out" (which is destructive to trans* people) and "passing" (which is the only way to live without the pressure and self-loathing.


message 34: by Mary (new)

Mary Aleks,

Like I said in another post: CLASS ACT!

I think I've fallen in love with you, all over again. :D


message 35: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Mary - Thank you. You are awesome. :)

Gianthogweed - I have Widow's story racing through my brain now - he's been VERY vocal over the last few days. VERY.


message 36: by Elin (new)

Elin Aleks, my dear, I think you /are/ a leader, despite your best efforts. I can't think of anyone else who is as articulate or as prepared to fight your corner.

That someone I care about, that's you btw, has been hurt to the extent that he contemplates giving up something that I know he loves as well as something he's superlatively good at is a true cause for outrage. That other people in a similar position have been bullied and harried and had their right to existence threatened fills me with anger. That a community that, until now, I thought prided itself on being welcoming and inclusive should behave with such knee jerk savagery is both baffling and terrifying. And there, I suppose, my cis-gendered privilege shows. Maybe I shouldn't be so shocked that people can be so utterly shitty to each other?

You're probably not the sort of person to want virtual hugs or I would send them. And good for Silvio. I think he's got it right even though, sadly, this is a conflict that should /not/ be happening. You have my support in any way I can provide it.


message 37: by ❂ Endless (last edited Nov 16, 2011 06:31AM) (new)

❂ Endless Omg! This is so unexpected...I've not been following goodreads too closely the past couple of days. And i just started reading Counterpunch and just happened to click on your page only to be greeted with this first thing in the morning! It is extremely sad and disheartening!

I truly appreciate your writing as so refreshing amongst all the junk out there that it was a pleasure to have found an author such as you who could write so wonderfully. Frankly, i thought and think that you're a man - there was no question in my mind and as a matter of fact - an author's gender is actually none of my damn business!! And that's what makes this even more tragic. To think that the "gay community" would be more forgiving 'cos they've been through and still go through so much bias from the "het community", to think that they are biased over trans* people is shocking and heartbreaking...!

Nobody and i mean nobody on this planet can choose to be born any different than they are, and NO, the universe does not have a return policy 'cos we are NOT non-living entities we are human beings for crying out loud! Shame on those bigoted "gay" fools to dish out the same cruel behavior as the "straight and narrow community" dishes out towards them! We as people might have physical boundaries but everyone know that the HUMAN imagination knows no boundaries! You can be who you are and still be a fabulous writer - why can't they get that!

Reading your thoughts and your struggle uptil now, i can only say this to you Aleksandr - You are a strong person, you have spirit, don't let anybody tell you any different! You do what you have to, to protect yourself physically, mentally and emotionally. You do not owe any "group" or "readers" anything regarding your private life. They don't have the right! I mean people write behind pen-names all the time without disclosing anything! That's the purpose of it isn't it!? It is your publisher's responsibility to honor your privacy and for you to guard it as you see fit within legal bounds. "Bias" is something that is ingrained in humans no matter what century you're in, you'll get to see it in one form or another. Best to just shield yourself and do what you love. You are a SPLENDID storyteller and I'd Hate to see you stop writing just 'cos some people can't deal!

You have the full support of this "straight but not narrow" female...
(I think i'm beginning to hate that description 'cos i hate being stereotyped into anything! I'm only just a person with a brain and a heart...)

DO NOT STOP WRITING! You'll starve me - i mean it!



Looks familiar?


message 38: by Lori (last edited Nov 16, 2011 06:37AM) (new)

Lori Adrian wrote: "My confidence in Mod Lori has dropped. She PM'ed me saying that she closed the thread because she realized it was going downhill and had the potential to become very nasty (a bit too late if you ask me). She started it on the YA group first, saw it go downhill there. Then opened it on the main MM group despite seeing what happened on the YA group..."

I'm not going to defend our group anymore. Everyone can weigh the pros and cons of the group themselves and decide whether or not they want to stay. I would like to correct a couple of things that Adrian brings up though.

In regards to the YA group, I started a thread asking some questions about whether or not the gender of the author mattered and how a reader would feel if they found out the author wasn't honest about it. I didn't mention AJ although of course that's what prompted the questions. It's my personal opinion, and you are free to disagree with me, that we can learn a lot through honest discourse. That's the way I parent and that's the way I run the group sessions at the LGBT youth center I volunteer at. I felt it was a relevant and important topic to talk about.

I started the "Is He or Is She" thread in 2009, over two years ago. I was fairly new to the genre and was really surprised to lean that most of the very popular authors I was reading were female. I wasn't sure how I felt about suddenly discovering that and I wanted to know how other people felt. The thread was archived in March of 2010 for inactivity. A member of our group, not me and not another mod, re-opened it on November 6th and linked to a couple of blogs discussing the AJ issue. We let the discussion go on until a member took offense at your Hitler comment and the thread was derailed. I deleted her response and closed the thread. Yes, I did reopen it again to address the torch wielding lynch mob accusations. There were a few more posts made, the vast majority constructive and thought provoking and then it was closed again and will remain closed.

You can say what you will about my moderating skills, that's your prerogative. As far as the mods having "done very little if anything to keep it within tasteful limits." You're absolutely right. I should have deleted your Hitler post.


message 39: by Dee Wy (new)

Dee Wy Oh Aleks, please don't give up on your writing just as I've started reading your books. Don't give up this avenue of expressing yourself as many of us will seek out anything you write.

The intolerance and superiority that spawns bullying and bashing frightens me and I simply don't understand it.

I fear this may be in my grandson's future. At five he declared he didn't want to be a boy, he wanted to be a girl. Now eight, he loves nail polish, girl's clothes and his vast doll collection and for his 8th birthday asked for a sewing machine so he could make dresses like he saw on Project Runway his favorite TV show. His parents are supportive (though worried for him) and he is now learning to sew. Extremely bright and articulate, he can cry at the drop of a hat if someone is unkind to him.

This child has not made a choice of sexual orientation as he doesn't even know what sex is yet. He is simply trying to be himself, but it is obvious to me that should he continue his current course, many people will loathe him for it at some point. It makes me cry to even think about it.

Trey's picture is on my personal page and since my Goodreads name is not my real name, feel free to see who I am speaking of: Trey

Why is it so hard for many people to celebrate that we are ALL different and unique in our own way and to respect that?


message 40: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper Just want to say that I also felt the anti-author sentiment was scary in there at one point with mod support, and I'm generally a pretty mellow person. Lori, you especially do your best and I appreciate you and the group, but the feeling of threat was not an illusion limited to trans authors.


message 41: by Monica (new)

Monica Dee wrote: "Oh Aleks, please don't give up on your writing just as I've started reading your books. Don't give up this avenue of expressing yourself as many of us will seek out anything you write.

The intoler..."


Trey is beautiful and I am so glad there is so much support around Trey. I wish your family happiness.


message 42: by Casey (new)

Casey Cox Kaje wrote: "Just want to say that I also felt the anti-author sentiment was scary in there at one point with mod support, and I'm generally a pretty mellow person. Lori, you especially do your best and I appre..."

I second that Kaje. Thank you for saying it.


message 43: by Monica (new)

Monica Adrian wrote: "@Monica: I don't think he was referring to everyone there in general. I think it was just as he said. The lynch mob over there, specifically them. I agree that most there are nice, though.

My conf..."


Adrian,

I respectfully disagree with you. I don't know who "them" is and the comment did not distinguish between them. I also disagree that it is the mods responsibility to remove every comment that you, me or anyone else doesn't like in general. There are always exceptions and I will get to that in a minute.

Freedom of speech isn't only convenient or right when its something we agree with. That right does extend to comments we don't like as well. At least as far as the US Constitution states. What's reasonable to you may not be reasonable to others and so on.

I will defend this group as a whole and the Mods as well. I don't like the comments that are coming from most of you against the group or the Mods. It seems hypocritical to me. Which brings me to when things get too far. I wasn't aware of the "Hilter" comment. To me, that is against the pail, and goes beyond anything one should say in anger. The person that said it should apologize immediately.

Each member of a group bears some responsibility to make a group work. No one is perfect. What are you doing to improve the situation? I'm stepping up and trying to see how we can get past this and learn from it. Who am I? Just a member of this group.


message 44: by Kaje (new)

Kaje Harper Monica, lets not dig up more specifics and call for apologies. How about we start doing some reading and writing, and critiquing, and maybe Damon's M/M soap opera idea, and the new awards, and all the other things that may pull us back together instead of break us apart. Deal?


message 45: by [deleted user] (new)

Kaje wrote: "Monica, lets not dig up more specifics and call for apologies. How about we start doing some reading and writing, and critiquing, and maybe Damon's M/M soap opera idea, and the new awards, and all..."

Thank you, Kaje. Words of wisdom. :)


message 46: by Monica (new)

Monica Aleksandr wrote: "Hi Monica - thank you for your comment and your thoughts. I haven't actually called any names - I haven't called any individual out on their behaviour.

That said, a small, vocal group in the M/M R..."


Alexs, I just don't get it. It appears to me that you don't want this to be over and it seems like you are now calling for a boycott and/or threatening people.

Everyone has a hand in creating a safe space. By continuing to make negative nasty comments you are letting the few turn you into them.

I just made the connection that you are the face of Riptide Publishing. I believe I congratulated you on one of the blogs and/or post for opening up your own business. I still wish you much success with Riptide. However, if someone a reader or author makes a comment on your website or thread that is negative, should be all tar and feather you for it? Should we not support your authors?

Can we not find a voice of reason from both sides that can come together to put together a thread where we can learn in a constructive manner what was offensive and why it was?

Sometimes we do have to take the time to educate people on why the comments they made were offensive. I happen to know what I'm talking about here.

I am an African American or Black or mixed woman who has had to educate others about people of color all the time. I want to scream some time at all the "innocent" comments that our offensive to people of color. For example, during President Obama's campaign for President, many people kept talking about how articulate Obama was. I and other people of color were highly offended by this. Why wouldn't he be articulate? Why would this be surprising? Why wasn't any other "white" candidate referred to as "articulate" or any of the other crazy racist comments that were said? Why were people asking for Obama's transcripts from school and no other president has ever been asked for his transcripts? I'm not going to get into the whole birth certificate issue. I hope you get my point.

I also want to ask you if you did indeed refer to someone as "Hitler"? I rather ask than assume. I am going to be upfront and state that I think that is horrible and deserves an apology, immediately. if you did state it, I am sure you said it in frustration and you were passionately caught up in the moment and you truly do not mean to refer to anyone that murdered Jews and held a dislike for anyone that didn't look like them.

Help me to understand how you could use that despicable man's name if you did use it. Even with the possibility that you used his name, I want to find a way that everyone can heal and try and move beyond this. Real leadership is stepping up to handle difficult situations.


message 47: by Sarasaya (new)

Sarasaya Kaje wrote: "Monica, lets not dig up more specifics and call for apologies. How about we start doing some reading and writing, and critiquing, and maybe Damon's M/M soap opera idea, and the new awards, and all..."

Ohhh, hello, nice to meet you, Sara here, can I be your slave for life?
:)


message 48: by Casey (last edited Nov 16, 2011 08:47AM) (new)

Casey Cox Monica wrote: "Freedom of speech isn't only convenient or right when its something we agree with. That right does extend to comments we don't like as well. At least as far as the US Constitution states. What's reasonable to you may not be reasonable to others and so on.."

Several things come to my mind with your post Monica - the first is that I'm not American so the comment about the US Constitution is beyond me. It is a world group - or I thought it was. I didn't realise I was signing up to a set of American ideals when I became a member there and i will go over and check to see if that's the case.

But really, all I wanted to point out - and I may be wrong, but it's why I joined the group in the first place - is that by advertising itself as an M/M group, by openly supporting GLBTQ issues the group is offering a safe space for anyone that has a particular opinion on these very subjects and that is an opinion of open acceptance. NOT free speech - because that would suggest that the haters and the bigotts rampant in the world should also have free access to the threads and discussions and what they see as fodder in their own twisted campaigns of bullying. I thought the MM group was a safe haven - not a place for anyone to express opionions that may be contrary to the building and maintaining of that safe haven.

I apologise to anyone if I misinterpreted the foundation of the group. I had no intention of leaving it for the sake of a few but I do know that even in my ongoing membership I cannot and will not stand by and allow what I see as bullying in any form to go unchecked and i will continue to speak out against it. If we stand idly by and do nothing then we become guilty by association.

There is no place, in my opinion, for discrimination and even less place for it in a group that presents itself as actively working against it. In this, we should be allowed a voice.


message 49: by [deleted user] (new)

Monica, Casey.

I suspect feelings are running too high at the moment and many people are feeling insecure and defensive about this whole issue. So it isn't the best time, nor is this the best place to argue about whether the m/m group is a safe haven or is packed with pitchfork wielding bigots. Obviously neither is true.

Let's not let this thread turn into another venue for hurt feelings and misunderstanding. Monica's request for an arena where people can learn and understand why the LBGTQ community, readers and authors, were so offended is great...and it belongs over in the m/m group where there is wide access and visibility. Mostly we need cooling off time and not to turn this thread into another flame war with loud denunciations and demands for apologies on all sides.

Please!!


message 50: by Dee Wy (new)

Dee Wy I'm all for moving on and getting back to what the M/M group stands for, a safe place for GLBT readers and writers. As readers we have two simple ways to judge our many authors. First with our wallets and secondly in our reviews, which hopefully are honest and never personally disparaging.

Our authors owe us nothing more than their best effort in their writing. Any other expectations are simply unrealistic.


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Aleksandr Voinov
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