You Get What You Pay For
I happened upon a three star Amazon review for "The French Have a Word for It" wherein the reviewer stated:
I know it only cost $1.49, but it's only 631 locations (translation for the rest of us: 8,362 words -- or 20 pages) there are free sample downloads that length. So while Lanyon is a skilled writer, this is really just a snippet and I'm not going to buy anymore stories this length because they are too short to satisfy me. Colin is a young artist, Thomas is significantly older and used to be his body guard, and they bump into each other in Paris...
There is nothing wrong with the writing or the ideas here, it's just too short to build any meaning for me.
Now, not everyone loves short stories. I do get that. But where did the idea that all short fiction should be free come from?
You don't get this attitude from those readers still buying print books. But maybe that's because they're under the (false) impression that the bulk of a book's price has to do with the physical end product?
I have to admit that review -- those comments -- floored me. Are a lot of ebook readers this far out of touch with publishing reality? Are they honestly this spoiled? Or is it simply that because so many readers in this genre come from a fan fiction background where all the stories are free, they don't grasp the fact that writing is a skill and a trade like any other, and the practitioners of that trade need to earn a living?
If skilled writers can't earn a living, then you won't have skilled writers penning your stories. You'll have fiction from people who have trouble giving their stuff away. Oh yes! On another Amazon forum they're debating that very thing. Debating whether Amazon ought to charge authors upload fees (one person suggested $500 - 1000. ) as means of weeding out all the dreck that is currently showing up at low, low prices and apparently making it too hard to find good stories.
Yeesh.
Come to think of it, maybe the bigger concern here is we might have a generation growing up that can't tell the difference between a snippet and a short story. There is a difference. It has to do with plot and point. I think most readers get that, right? Please tell me this woman is the exception and not the rule of our new book buying paradigm because there are writers who specialize in short fiction. They make a living at short fiction. The short story is a perfectly valid art form, and while print markets for individual stories are dwindling, the market for anthologies is growing. Magazines like Alfred Hitchcock and Ellery Queen still pay around 5 - 8 cents a word.
I happen to love writing short stories, but not so much that I would write them for free.
I know it only cost $1.49, but it's only 631 locations (translation for the rest of us: 8,362 words -- or 20 pages) there are free sample downloads that length. So while Lanyon is a skilled writer, this is really just a snippet and I'm not going to buy anymore stories this length because they are too short to satisfy me. Colin is a young artist, Thomas is significantly older and used to be his body guard, and they bump into each other in Paris...
There is nothing wrong with the writing or the ideas here, it's just too short to build any meaning for me.
Now, not everyone loves short stories. I do get that. But where did the idea that all short fiction should be free come from?
You don't get this attitude from those readers still buying print books. But maybe that's because they're under the (false) impression that the bulk of a book's price has to do with the physical end product?
I have to admit that review -- those comments -- floored me. Are a lot of ebook readers this far out of touch with publishing reality? Are they honestly this spoiled? Or is it simply that because so many readers in this genre come from a fan fiction background where all the stories are free, they don't grasp the fact that writing is a skill and a trade like any other, and the practitioners of that trade need to earn a living?
If skilled writers can't earn a living, then you won't have skilled writers penning your stories. You'll have fiction from people who have trouble giving their stuff away. Oh yes! On another Amazon forum they're debating that very thing. Debating whether Amazon ought to charge authors upload fees (one person suggested $500 - 1000. ) as means of weeding out all the dreck that is currently showing up at low, low prices and apparently making it too hard to find good stories.
Yeesh.
Come to think of it, maybe the bigger concern here is we might have a generation growing up that can't tell the difference between a snippet and a short story. There is a difference. It has to do with plot and point. I think most readers get that, right? Please tell me this woman is the exception and not the rule of our new book buying paradigm because there are writers who specialize in short fiction. They make a living at short fiction. The short story is a perfectly valid art form, and while print markets for individual stories are dwindling, the market for anthologies is growing. Magazines like Alfred Hitchcock and Ellery Queen still pay around 5 - 8 cents a word.
I happen to love writing short stories, but not so much that I would write them for free.
Yeah, I do think there's a generation of people who grew up with free stuff on the Internet, they have a complete different concept on intellectual properties, paying for content etc. And oh dear, I don't think "word count" should be a main contributing factor in book buying decision. What about poetry then? ;-)Welcome to "every reader can be a critic land" - Well, at least this reader had read the story. Some 1-star reviews are people who haven't read or just find the story outline offensive...
Carole wrote: "I've seen quite a bit of entitlement behavior in readers--even before I started publishing. I actually started disregarding the star system when deciding what to buy quite a long time ago, because ..."I don't worry about the ratings, but the attitude that because the short story was the length of what someone else might offer as an excerpt or a freebie, it wasn't worth paying for was a disturbing one.
I did a bit of research this evening, though, and hat attitude doesn't appear to be the direction the industry is going. In fact, the short story is enjoying a come back as a marketing tool according to a lot of experts!
So that was the good news.
Thelastaerie wrote: "Yeah, I do think there's a generation of people who grew up with free stuff on the Internet, they have a complete different concept on intellectual properties, paying for content etc. And oh dear,..."That was part of what made her views interesting -- and alarming. She had no problem with the story. She just believes that anything under a certain (unspecified) word count should be free.
The point about poetry is great!
Yes, there are a lot of really militant views about how ebooks should be priced. I don't see a lot of calculations that consider books as a product wherein an author's wage would be attached. Maybe there's a growing belief that no one should be making a living at writing?
Dear Mr. Lanyon,You shouldn't read Amazon comments :-) You will spoil your sleep over it.
I have a Kindle, so I buy a lot of ebooks via Amazon [I live in Russia, so it's easier to get books this way.]. For me the price is equal to my desire to read a particular book (the size of the book doesn't matter). A book is a book (e-version or paper one).
What I see in her comment is that she is the type of person who can enjoy a book only if it's the size of War and Peace :-) If she cannot enjoy the beauty of a short story, that's her loss.
"...there are free sample downloads that length. So while Lanyon is a skilled writer, this is really just a snippet and I'm not going to buy anymore stories this length because they are too short to satisfy me..." - As you said there is a difference between a snippet and a short story. But she doesn't see it. Or doesn't understand it. Maybe she will be happy to pay more for a longer book of yours.
Anyway, be asured there are people who think the same way as you do. And we are ready to pay for the product, your work, your witty talent to tell stories, the entertainment no matter the length.
Have a nice day :-)
PS. Think of coffee in Paris. The coffee is good, but the cup is small and there are no refills. So few will be ready to pay for it. Or enjoy it.
Josh,I second what Paris said ... A price is equel to my desire to read a book. I don't mind to pay $16 on print just like I don't mind to pay $9 on ebook, or $2 on short. I happen to love short stories. If they're good, they are worth every cents.
Edina wrote: "I believe some of us readers of ebooks tend to forget that a book is a book, whether it is digital or printed. We would never see a short book in print and say it should be free, so why would we th..."So true, Edina. When I hear readers discussing book prices it usually goes back to the fact that there's no physical product that can be loaned or resold. But how many potential loans a book might receive is not something calculated into book prices because the vast majority of readers do not loan and do not resell. They either keep or give away.
The price of a book is intended to cover an author's wages, an editor's wages, a copyeditor's wages, a cover artist's wages, the book production and the publisher's profits. And probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
Paris wrote: "Dear Mr. Lanyon,You shouldn't read Amazon comments :-) You will spoil your sleep over it.
I have a Kindle, so I buy a lot of ebooks via Amazon [I live in Russia, so it's easier to get books this..."
Thank you, Paris. I know you're right. And your comments are insightful.
By the way, reading the Amazon forums is even worse. I nearly fainted as I read the discussion about forcing writers to pay to upload their books as proof they were seriously invested in their career and their writing. :-D :-D
Ami wrote: "Josh,I second what Paris said ... A price is equel to my desire to read a book. I don't mind to pay $16 on print just like I don't mind to pay $9 on ebook, or $2 on short. I happen to love shor..."
Thank you, Ami. I'm glad you feel that way.
I'm glad most people don't resent the idea of paying for the things we enjoy or I don't know how anyone would ever make a living at doing anything.
Oh, the next thing we know people will ask surgeons to operate on themselves as a proof they are seriously invested in their career :-))Sometimes it is healty not to give a fuck what other people think.
Most people are not deep, they are not an intellectuals, not an artists, not a critics and they are not writers. They just have an internet access :-)
I disagree with all of you. This is Amazon's fault. They should always include a page count so the reader knows what she's getting. She has a right to not like short stories and to be disappointed she got one.Until Amazon changes this, I strongly suggest you writers convince your publishers to include the page count in the book description.
Charming wrote: "I disagree with all of you. This is Amazon's fault. They should always include a page count so the reader knows what she's getting. She has a right to not like short stories and to be disappoint..."But that's not what we discuss here, Charming. But I agree with you that this information is always useful. However, when I shop for my Kindle, I check the page count. If Amazon doesn't have it (most of the time they do in Product Details). I check in Goodreads, they usually do.
PS. By the way there is information about the size of the download for the above mentioned book. So who do we blame now? :-)
Paris wrote: "But that's not what we discuss here, Charming. "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize I was intruding.
To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicator of length.
Charming wrote: "Paris wrote: "But that's not what we discuss here, Charming. "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize I was intruding.
To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicat..."
You wasn't. You have a right for your own opinion like the rest of us with internet access :-))
If you are not comfortable with download size (me too by the way), you can see the details for the same book in paperback or hardcover. You can do it on the same Amazon page.
PS again: in case of "The French Have a Word for It" it says A Short Story by Josh Lanyon :-) That should be an indicator. Or you can check page here, on Goodreads, it says 30 pages.
Charming wrote: Oh, sorry. I didn't realize I was intruding.To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicat..."
I don't think you were intruding Charming, but I can't agree that your point is valid. I do understand what you're saying, but we're talking about does the page count necessarily equal the 'worth' of a work? In truth, I should think the price alone should have been a clue that the story in question was short, so buyer beware, in my opinion. But the point is that the reader seemed to think this should have been a free story because of its length, and I can't agree that anyone has the right to expect that. It's like saying that if someone only comes to work for three hours instead of eight, their employer has the right to expect them to forfeit their wages for the whole day.
The prevailing attitude was: If it's short it should be free. And I really can't agree with that.
Carole wrote: "Charming wrote: Oh, sorry. I didn't realize I was intruding.To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicat..."
I don't think you were intruding Charm..."
so true
thank you
Charming wrote: "I disagree with all of you. This is Amazon's fault. They should always include a page count so the reader knows what she's getting. She has a right to not like short stories and to be disappoint..."But Charming it says on the cover of the book -- A SHORT STORY BY JOSH LANYON. I made sure to include that because I really don't want readers feeling ripped off. Truly.
By the way, I agree that Amazon could post word or page count and that would help.
Paris wrote: "Oh, the next thing we know people will ask surgeons to operate on themselves as a proof they are seriously invested in their career :-))Sometimes it is healty not to give a fuck what other people..."
This is true to an extent. In the old days the reviewer would have sent a letter of complaint to the company and the company would have refunded or not (if they were a bad company) but now days this kind of stuff goes into the product "review." Things like the shipping took longer than promised or the packaging was battered or the instructions on how to set this pool up were confusing or this was a short story! These are now the gist of a lot of "reviews."
That's not a review.
Carole wrote: "Charming wrote: Oh, sorry. I didn't realize I was intruding.
To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicat..."
I don't think you were intruding Charm..."
Agreed Carole. The strength and quality of a story to me has very little to do with length. There are authors, like O. Henry or Fitzgerald, that can give you in a couple dozen pages, what you could never get in 300.
Josh's shorts always great, and what's best I know for a fact that, I'm paying for something I'm going to truly enjoy. That to me is more than worth paying for.
To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicat..."
I don't think you were intruding Charm..."
Agreed Carole. The strength and quality of a story to me has very little to do with length. There are authors, like O. Henry or Fitzgerald, that can give you in a couple dozen pages, what you could never get in 300.
Josh's shorts always great, and what's best I know for a fact that, I'm paying for something I'm going to truly enjoy. That to me is more than worth paying for.
Charming wrote: "Paris wrote: "But that's not what we discuss here, Charming. "Oh, sorry. I didn't realize I was intruding.
To answer your question, I still blame Amazon. Download size isn't a reliable indicat..."
Huh? Why would you be intruding?
The prevailing attitude was: If it's short it should be free. And I really can't agree with that. That's my point. Which leads to the broader point about pricing of creative works in general. I don't know how you attach a dollar sign based on word count. What if there's a sex scene? Would that have made a difference? I kind of suspect it would have (though maybe I'm being cynical here).
The story is 8K+ so that's not THAT short. Would it be okay to start charging for a short story at 9K? 10K?
You see what I'm saying?
Of course it's disturbing to me as an author who works hard at crafting stories -- every word in my stories -- to hear my work is only valuable after it achieves a certain, arbitrary word count.
Josh wrote: "Thanks, Laura."
Thanks for what? It's true, your shorts rock! :O)
Thanks for what? It's true, your shorts rock! :O)
Josh wrote: "This is true to an extent. In the old days the reviewer would have sent a letter of complaint to the company and the company would have refunded or not (if they were a bad company) but now days this kind of stuff goes into the product "review." Things like the shipping took longer than promised or the packaging was battered or the instructions on how to set this pool up were confusing or this was a short story! These are now the gist of a lot of "reviews." "One thing is to refund a battered or lost package. But how do you refund a Shakespeare's play that wasn't understood or appreciated?
As Stephen King wrote you cannot satisfy everyone. So you need to choose you reader and write for him/or for them. He writes for his wife :-)
Josh wrote: "Huh? Why would you be intruding? "Because this is a "vent about annoying reviews" post and not a "how Amazon and publishers should keep readers from being disappointed" post.
When people want to vent, other people coming along with advice can be annoying.
Charming wrote: "Because this is a "vent about annoying reviews" post and not a "how Amazon and publishers should keep readers from being disappointed" post.When p..."
Charming, I apologize if I made you feel unwelcome or as an intruder. That wasn't my intention.
However, now that you know what we are "venting" here about... What are your thoughts? Should readers pay for short stories (i.e. 20-30 pages)? Or should e-books this length be for free?
Page count can be misleading too, depending on the format and font size. For me, word count is important, not the only deciding factor, but an important one among many. You can get crap for 100+K books just as likely as you can get brilliance at 10K. A story once caught my attention only to find they were charging $3.00 for about 5k words. I'm sorry, but that's is outrageous for my rapidly dwindling reading budget and couldn't bring myself to get it. It's just a matter of providing accurate information and let the reader make up their minds based on what is important to them. That review would not have affected my decision if I would've come across it because it was what it was, one person's opinion. After a while you just learn to sift through the reviews and pluck out what you would like or dislike and what would work for you, regardless of the ratings.
I'll admit that I generally skip over the super short stories (less than 10,000 words), unless the blurb catches my attention or it's from a favorite author. I just usually like longer stories, and I save my money to buy them. Just as many people probably prefer shorter stories and don't buy longer ones; we all have our preferences. But that in no way means that I think I should be able to read those short stories for free; in fact, just the idea of that sounds pretty ridiculous. I think the majority of readers doesn't think this way, even if they do prefer a certain length.
Charming wrote: "Josh wrote: "Huh? Why would you be intruding? "Because this is a "vent about annoying reviews" post and not a "how Amazon and publishers should keep readers from being disappointed" post.
When p..."
That's certainly an element of it. But that's not the main gist of it.
I don't consider bitching about price a review, for one thing.
Nor do I really see that Amazon can keep all consumers from being disappointed no matter what precautions they take. That's not to say they shouldn't take any, and I think labeling the books with word count and page number is a good idea.
Td wrote: "Page count can be misleading too, depending on the format and font size. For me, word count is important, not the only deciding factor, but an important one among many. You can get crap for 100+K b..."Td, I might be mistaken, but I think the kindle automatically has default formatting when you upload the file, so I think listing page numbers or word counts might help.
To be honest, the normal price of all my short stories is around $2.99. I think French is one of the shorter ones.
I do definitely worry over the pricing. I want to be fair. I don't want to gouge readers -- I give away a lot of books. In fact, I was estimating that I gave away nearly 700 stories last year (novels, novellas, shorts, etc.) But at the same time, I work hard at my craft and I don't want to undervalue my work either.
I think doing this kind of promotional thing where I knock the prices down for a while is a good compromise because it gives people who just can't justify paying more than a buck or two for a story an opportunity.
Jenre wrote: "I think sometimes us ebook readers can be a bit spoiled because there are many authors out there who offer up short stories for free. In fact, I read two fabulous free stories this week which were ..."That particular story was a freebie for over a year, and can still be found on line for free if someone is determined not to pay for it -- as can so many stories in our genre -- so in a way it's kind of an honor system. I have readers telling me I don't charge enough and readers telling me I charge too much. I'm trying to hit somewhere in the middle.
But even I'm not sure what the middle is.
I must say that I find books under five dollars a bargain :-) Books are expensive in Moscow. You won't find a normal size book at this price. Even at the second-hand stores. It should be really thin, battered and of unknown author to be priced at $2-3.Prices for books in English start at 12 dollars. And then go up.
I run Book Swap Club so that people with low budgets could enjoy more books in English.
I also don't find Amazon deceiving. I always take some time to research the book I'm buying. If there is not enough information at Amazon, I look elsewhere. Or I take a risk, but I don't blame anyone if what I get is not up to my expectations.
Lacey wrote: "I'll admit that I generally skip over the super short stories (less than 10,000 words), unless the blurb catches my attention or it's from a favorite author. I just usually like longer stories, an..."Well, I won't pretend that I wouldn't rather read a novel from a favorite writer than a short story or even a novella. Sometimes a short story is exactly what I'm in the mood for -- and I certainly enjoy writing them -- but I totally agree.
It's really the combination of debates going on about how books (mostly ebooks) should be priced that bewildered me -- continues to bewilder me -- the suggestion that short stories aren't worth paying for was pretty much the crowning blow.
On the other hand, the suggestion that authors ought to be paying to publish leaves me speechless, which is maybe a good thing.
And of course adding to the frustration and coloring my reaction is the ongoing issue of piracy. It's hard for me not to react with dismay and frustration when every other day I get a list of all the torrent sites where more work is being downloaded for free.So to read someone opining on the actual Amazon book buying page that they feel all short works should be free is bound to be disturbing.
Kindle owners can also share books. And there are sites where people lend books from Kindle to Kindle. So a lot of free books are out there.Also, almost all modern authors have web sites where you can learn about their work, before buying anything.
So I don't really see the reason for being disappointed about the lack of information or the prices.
The music business model gets quoted a lot, but I think a lot of people forget that most of the money in music comes from the gigs themselves and the merchandising (T-shirts, etc.) There are a lot more authors than there are speaking engagements and frankly I doubt if even my most devoted readers are dying for a JL T-shirt. ;-)
Paris wrote: "Charming, I apologize if I made you feel unwelcome or as an intruder. That wasn't my intention. No worries. I wasn't feeling bad about it - I just realized that my comment was kind of a non-sequitur.
However, now that you know what we are "venting" here about... What are your thoughts? Should readers pay for short stories (i.e. 20-30 pages)? Or should e-books this length be for free? "
OK, here is my perspective as a reader: I certainly don't think that any particular length "should" be free. My comment really was directed to the fact that this reader was unpleasantly surprised by the length. I have been disappointed with the length of something I bought before, and I've heard the complaint from many others as well.
Yeah maybe readers "should" do their research and figure out how long a story is before buying it. But they don't. Writers can't help disappointing readers by writing differently than the reader wishes they would - it is inherent in human endeavor. But they can encourage Amazon and/or their publishers not disappoint them with length.
I also don't see why readers shouldn't use reviews to complain about things they didn't like. The reviews are for the readers, not the writers. Other readers will find it useful to know that the story is 20 pages long, since, you know, Amazon doesn't tell them that. Again, you can't avoid all bad reviews, but you can avoid those caused by length-disappointment if you can make sure people know what they are getting.
I also don't see why readers shouldn't use reviews to complain about things they didn't like. The reviews are for the readers, not the writers. Other readers will find it useful to know that the story is 20 pages long, since, you know, Amazon doesn't tell them that. Again, you can't avoid all bad reviews, but you can avoid those caused by length-disappointment if you can make sure people know what they are getting. I agree -- I mean, I do think those THE INSTRUCTIONS DIDN'T COME WITH THE POOL reviews are not really the way to handle that stuff(for one thing, the vendor doesn't have a way of fixing that) -- but it was the suggestion that short fiction should be free that bothered me.
And the fact that it does say on the flipping cover A SHORT STORY BY JOSH LANYON. Short as in....SHORT. ;-D
But even then, it's fine to wish the story was longer, it's fine to say you don't care for short stories, I honestly don't care about any of that. It's the implication (or maybe my paranoid inferrence) that all short fiction should be free that created the nail-biting and angsting. And that response is, naturally, colored by my own understanding of how much my work is already pirated.
Admittedly it's a touchy subject for authors.
A song from I-tunes costs 0.99€ and I don't feel like complaining because it's not the whole album - are they still called albums nowadays? - As long as a short story is a complete short story - beginning, middle, end - I have no problems paying for it even if it's 20 pages long.The disappointment might come, as many others have stated, if it's not clear from the product page. Or if the page-location-file size count is fattened by advertising. Samhain does it a bit too much. When I am at 90% of the book and I expect it will finish in the next 10% and instead it finishes at 93%, it sort of upsets me, because it betrays my expectations.
When I am at 90% of the book and I expect it will finish in the next 10% and instead it finishes at 93%, it sort of upsets me, because it betrays my expectations.Oh, I know. SO disappointing. I agree.
Josh wrote: "I doubt if even my most devoted readers are dying for a JL T-shirt. ;-) ..."Josh, I'd buy a Josh Lanyon t-shirt! Let's see, who would be on the t-shirt?
Lori K wrote: "Josh wrote: "I doubt if even my most devoted readers are dying for a JL T-shirt. ;-) ..."Josh, I'd buy a Josh Lanyon t-shirt! Let's see, who would be on the t-shirt?"
Martini glass or best ever book cover? :-D
Or just a giant question mark?
Josh wrote: "Lori K wrote: "Josh wrote: "I doubt if even my most devoted readers are dying for a JL T-shirt. ;-) ..."Josh, I'd buy a Josh Lanyon t-shirt! Let's see, who would be on the t-shirt?"
Martini..."
No, I've already decided Kari can design it. Didn't she do a cover for you? It could totally rock.
I want "Jake is the hottest thing ever" on my t-shirt...
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I want "Jake is the hottest thing ever" on my t-shirt..."That'd be cute. Jeez, I pay $35 for concert t-shirts for my daughter that suck. I think Josh could get $30 easy. We get shirts made for the company outings for like $10 each he could profit $15 a shirt. US Mail is cheap for soft goods.
It's do-able.
Team Jake Team Adrien ?
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I want "Jake is the hottest thing ever" on my t-shirt..." LOLI think that the authors give us their time and their talent. To pay for it, even if it's for a short story, it's the less we can do :)
Lori K wrote: "Team Jake Team Adrien ?"You're a genius :D
Lori K wrote: "Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "I want "Jake is the hottest thing ever" on my t-shirt..."That'd be cute. Jeez, I pay $35 for concert t-shirts for my daughter that suck. I think Josh could get $..."
Darling, can I have a shirt with Adrien on the couch (a scene from the first book after he fainted) with the words "Come on, open up those baby blues". I have a thing for this scene. I don't know why. I find it so sexy.
I do appreciate that some readers have very tight budgets and that $1.49 for twenty pages might seem like much more to some than it does to me (I'm more concerned with whether or not the author told me a good story, and you have yet to fail me). But if that's the case, I have to wonder why they didn't bother to check out the page count before they bought the story in the first place, since that's where the value seems to be placed for this particular reader.
If it helps at all, I have no doubt whatsoever that you've got readers out there who would've paid double or triple for the same story. I've just put it on my own 'to buy' list and I'm sure I'll be one of them.