Gail Simone's Blog, page 1163
October 6, 2011
Hi Ms. Simone, I am really interested in your run on Secret Six, and I was explaining to my girlfriend about the mixed sexualities on the team and she is also really interested. I find DC doesn't collect comics in trades/hardcover near as well as Marvel. W
Thanks!
They first appear in Villains United, and then the next is Six Degrees of Devastation. That second one is out of print right now and expensive on ebay but is available on the DC comics app and Comixology, I think.
Then the ongoing series goes, UNHINGED first, DEPTHS second, and then i get confused. :)
You can start with either Villains United or UNHINGED pretty easily, I think! Good luck and thanks!
Hi Ms. Simone, I am really interested in your run on Secret Six, and I was explaining to my girlfriend about the mixed sexualities on the team and she is also really interested. I find DC doesn't collect comics in trades/hardcover near as well as Marvel. W
Thanks!
They first appear in Villains United, and then the next is Six Degrees of Devastation. That second one is out of print right now and expensive on ebay but is available on the DC comics app and Comixology, I think.
Then the ongoing series goes, UNHINGED first, DEPTHS second, and then i get confused. :)
You can start with either Villains United or UNHINGED pretty easily, I think! Good luck and thanks!
My Special Yell Thing: gailsimone: My Special Yell Thing: So, apparently Catman's bi. Yay for...
My Special Yell Thing: So, apparently Catman's bi. Yay for him, and for bi readers now…
The one thing I still disagree with is Scandal. I still don't see how showing her love life and sex life is really a problem…we didn't show her as pandering to the male gaze, her relationships with Kay and Liana were never about the straight male gaze in any particular sense. It was just that she was the romantic of the group. She says she's gay explicitly twice, I think, the rest is just story and her character, and I think many of her most memorable moments are non-romantic, such as her relationship with Bane.
I guess that bit puzzles me a little, to be honest. I agree that it would have been nice to see more of Creote and Savant together on panel, even as supporting characters, but I'm not sure I see what having Scandal's romantic life getting less screen time would do that's positive.
As part of that, I also disagree a little that we haven't been reminded of other sixers' sexuality, even if they didn't have as much of a romantic turn as Scandal. Floyd's heterosexuality came up often, as did Bane's desire for Spencer.
The odd thing for me, and this isn't about your post, but, man, since this book started, I've been hearing about the clear romantic vibe between Floyd and Blake, just endlessly. I found it all charming and amusing, I never denied it, it's mentioned in many, maybe most of the reviews and commentaries. I don't think 'bromance' covers it…it's clear that Floyd and Blake care more about each other than they are comfortable admitting and sometimes, they seem almost obsessed with each other. I think that subtext has always been there like a neon sign…but Black and Lawton aren't really any good about talking about their feelings, and Blake, who is the superhothot dude of the group, has never really expressed much in the way of his feelings sexually in the book for ANYONE but Huntress, so she is looming large in his sex life, which excludes others. Jeannette is in the same boat—she's bisexual, but her obsession right now is Floyd. But she TALKS more about what she wants than Blake, so we at least had oblique reference to her openness to relationships with other women (which we see in her hatred/attraction with Amazons).
I talked about Deadshot's reaction if Blake had come out to him on another thread—my initial thought was, yeah, Lawton would probably have some shock. Then I thought, no no no, it's much more Lawton if he already knows and could not care less. It's not that he's so enlightened, it's that he genuinely doesn't give a shit what other people do because he's not a hypocrite. Of all the Six, Blake is probably the one least likely to show his feelings, even more so than Lawton. I always felt the 'Secret' Six meant secret as in personal, not secret as in covert.
My opinion is that Blake is fired by an animal impulse, he wants what he wants, he doesn't care what Lawton or anyone else things, and when someone gives off the scent, he responds in an animal way. His feelings for Huntress hurt and confuse him, they take him out of his own control. He doesn't like it, he resents it. But he still pursues it.
This is starting to sound a little inside, but that was the approach I had for the characters. I don't know if it's obvious but I MISS WRITING THE SECRET SIX. :)
Anyway, fun comments, thank you for giving me the opportunity to present what was in my head at the time. I agree, again, with the idea that it would have been lovely to show Creote and Savant in their downtime. And you're right, they did become very popular supporting characters…Savant was originally supposed to die in the first arc he appeared in but he immediately struck a chord and Creote followed soon after. The dichotomy was that giving two guys lots of page time in the ONLY successful female team superhero book in DC and Marvel history seemed like it would be doing a disservice to the core team, as well. The perils of a team book are always about balance and panel time!
WAIT..JEANNETTE IS BI?!!!!! love love love love love!
Absolutely she is…I feel a bit weird here because I thought I'd been pretty clear about that in the scripts, especially when she's facing Artemis and Diana.
The backstory is that she and Scandal were lovers in a Russian gulag, but decided they are better as friends.
In DCnU continuity, have the other Batgirls (Cass, Stephanie, Charlotte) existed or is Barbara the one and only?
Whoops, sorry if this reblog looks messy. I haven't figured out how to cleanly reblog asks.
I'm not 100% certain about Cass, but I personally don't believe that it's possible for Steph to have been Batgirl. Barbara's paralysis only lasted three years, so there's just no way to fit all of what happened to both girls in that timeframe. Moreover, Tim has been aged back down to sixteen, right? Steph is supposed to be one year older than he is, which would put her at seventeen. Steph's connections to others haven't been confirmed—-i.e., did she date Tim when he was Robin? Was she still pregnant at fifteen/sixteen?—-so it's difficult to judge who she is in the reboot continuity.
We know (as far as I've been told, and the last that I've heard) that she wasn't a Robin. This is problematic, because if she wasn't a Robin, she didn't die. If she didn't die, she didn't go to Africa for a year. If she didn't go to Africa, she never had the time and the distance to reflect on what—-and who—-she was fighting for back in Gotham. I feel like she transitioned from fighting because she was trying to prove that she was good—-and not an apple bound to fall close to the rotten old Cluemaster tree—-and fighting because it was right. She's always been quick with the quips and raring for action, but I think that people forget how Steph was back in her pre-Robin days.
The Stephanie that Brian Q. Miller left us with in Batgirl #24 is a different person than the Spoiler that we were introduced to in the 90s. She was veeeeery clearly the product of the 90s, and fit the tone of Robin back then—-a 'teen problem' given a name and a face. The plots and characters were driven by issues that Oprah and D.A.R.E. were trying to drill into the youth of the time. Stephanie was a pregnant teenager from a broken home, not unlike Tim's other friends (who were regularly engaged in things like peer pressure to have sex, smoking (killer) marijuana, cancer, class bullying, and school shootings. In retrospect, there's a slight element of after school special parody going on in 90s Robin, and so there are issues in updating Spoiler!Steph for today's target audience.
Anyway. Steph was a latchkey kid who, without parental supervision, engaged in unprotected sex and got pregnant. This is probably what she was known best for in her pre-Robin days. She has that go get 'em determination, but back then she was angry. She was resentful. She became Spoiler to get back at her father, and to keep him from sucking her mother into another dependency spiral. When she finally got to face her father, she tried to strangle him with a length of chain. On more than one occasion, Tim had to force her to go back and save the lives of criminals. She continued to fight crime because she was an adrenaline junkie, and because she had a big sloppy crush on Timmy the Boy Wonder—-not because it was right or wrong, necessarily.
Working alongside Bruce—-for everything bad that came of it, during and after—-changed that in her, I feel. In Batgirl #53, Steph has a team-up with Cass that triggers memories of what it was like to grow up with a criminal for a father. As Robin, she questions what it will take to save girls like her from the cycle of particularly violent abuse that was commonplace in Gotham—-and there is no answer for her then. Ideas on choosing to fight in Gotham vs. surviving in Gotham percolated in that year abroad, and it redefined who she is when she is masked—-no matter what that mask may be. When the Batgirl mantle was thrust upon her, she decided that she was going to take the Bat symbol and make it mean hope, instead of just vengeance or justice. She took an active role in being someone brighter and more visible than a bat-shaped figure for the criminals to fear.
Since her time as Robin has been taken from her, that change may not have happened. Unless they calm her down from the start, she won't have transitioned from a vigilante who fights for Gotham, and a vigilante who fights to survive in Gotham. If that sounds like mincing words, I apologize, but it is significant. In Detective Comics #796, she almost accidentally kills Mr. Zsasz. She swoops in to save Batman from getting julienned, and if Bruce hadn't broken his nose beforehand, her automatic strike would have been a killing blow. Survival was first in her mind, thanks to years of hard knocks and trauma, so she looked to end fights without realizing that that was what she was doing. She was roughshod and reactionary. In order to fight the way Bruce Wayne decreed, she had to fight for something bigger than herself—-and she had to stop continually fighting the ghost of her upbringing.
Once that thread gets plucked away, more events unravel. She became Spoiler at fifteen, had her baby at sixteen, and crashed through War Games not long after that. So, if she is still a year older than Tim, she's seventeen. She just recently had her baby, if she had a baby. For all we know, she may not have ever met Tim.
This leaves me wondering who Stephanie is going to be in this new universe. The events that led to her becoming Batgirl have either been officially removed, or exist in that grayish limbo zone where all of the secondary characters are hanging out and discussing the good old days, so no: I don't think that she could have been Batgirl.
And that breaks my heart a little, I won't lie. Her comics will always exist, but she has been stripped of much of what made her a uniquely powerful positive influence—-and no, taking Batgirl from her was not what dragged her into the murky mire. Her life events have been contorted pretty badly with this piecemeal reboot.
All that being said, my challenge—-and okay, maybe my prayer—-to DC is this: build her up again. It's possible to update Stephanie to this generation of teenagers, and to make her accessible to girls who are desperately looking for heroines like her. She absolutely does not have to be Batgirl to be that hero. To me, what makes Steph great is that we all know someone like her—-someone who has had to work for everything, who fails often and spectacularly, but who keeps trying and is so genuine in her hope and optimism, you cheer for every one of her small victories. So, uh. I probably over-answered your question. Sorry!
Beautiful words, as always, but I have to disagree with some of it.
Stephanie did begin as Spoiler as a reaction against her father. She enjoyed it because of the rush, and because of Robin. But as early as Robin 26, she was thinking of the larger implications of what she was doing, of the people who were being hurt in her city. "Maybe Gotham needs a Spoiler."
I don't think Spoiler was merely an act of rebellion, either. She genuinely didn't want her father to hurt anyone else. Yes, it was wrapped up in her own vengeance - but even then, it was more for Crystal than her. "I wanted Daddy Dearest out of Mom's life for good."
One of the first things she did as Spoiler was to hunt down Jim Murray - not to satisfy any thirst for vengeance, but to stop him from harming anyone else.
Yes, in those early days, she was very much an adrenaline junkie, and struggling so fiercely against a past and parent that tried to define her. But she also genuinely wanted to protect people. She's angered when others are wronged. She's distraught if she can't help.
As Robin continues, we see her grow and mature. By Robin 100, she's at peace with what other people think of her. She still has those insecurities, and a ferocious temper, but she's far more focused as a vigilante, and far more confident in herself.
I also don't think a more ruthless morality need be related to recklessness, or immaturity, nor mutually exclusive to fighting for a higher purpose. Going for a kill can save a dozen more lives. It would have, if Batman had let her. I don't think it was her survival Stephanie was thinking of.
What I guess I'm saying is - Stephanie didn't really need that year to truly become a protector, a real force for good, a beacon of hope. She didn't need the Bat to be that kind of hero. She already was.
This thread is amazing. Thanks for this post.
The more I read of this stuff, the more I think Steph's history smashes the wall of new 52 thinking. If there are no superheroes or villains out of the closet until five years ago, Steph's dad could be an issue. And the amount of time involved in her key stories is tricky, as you point out. Your thoughts are elegant on the topic—I think they are hoping for simple backstories, which she doesn't have at this point.
Wish I had better answers, but I just don't know their thinking on this yet.
In DCnU continuity, have the other Batgirls (Cass, Stephanie, Charlotte) existed or is Barbara the one and only?
Whoops, sorry if this reblog looks messy. I haven't figured out how to cleanly reblog asks.
I'm not 100% certain about Cass, but I personally don't believe that it's possible for Steph to have been Batgirl. Barbara's paralysis only lasted three years, so there's just no way to fit all of what happened to both girls in that timeframe. Moreover, Tim has been aged back down to sixteen, right? Steph is supposed to be one year older than he is, which would put her at seventeen. Steph's connections to others haven't been confirmed—-i.e., did she date Tim when he was Robin? Was she still pregnant at fifteen/sixteen?—-so it's difficult to judge who she is in the reboot continuity.
We know (as far as I've been told, and the last that I've heard) that she wasn't a Robin. This is problematic, because if she wasn't a Robin, she didn't die. If she didn't die, she didn't go to Africa for a year. If she didn't go to Africa, she never had the time and the distance to reflect on what—-and who—-she was fighting for back in Gotham. I feel like she transitioned from fighting because she was trying to prove that she was good—-and not an apple bound to fall close to the rotten old Cluemaster tree—-and fighting because it was right. She's always been quick with the quips and raring for action, but I think that people forget how Steph was back in her pre-Robin days.
The Stephanie that Brian Q. Miller left us with in Batgirl #24 is a different person than the Spoiler that we were introduced to in the 90s. She was veeeeery clearly the product of the 90s, and fit the tone of Robin back then—-a 'teen problem' given a name and a face. The plots and characters were driven by issues that Oprah and D.A.R.E. were trying to drill into the youth of the time. Stephanie was a pregnant teenager from a broken home, not unlike Tim's other friends (who were regularly engaged in things like peer pressure to have sex, smoking (killer) marijuana, cancer, class bullying, and school shootings. In retrospect, there's a slight element of after school special parody going on in 90s Robin, and so there are issues in updating Spoiler!Steph for today's target audience.
Anyway. Steph was a latchkey kid who, without parental supervision, engaged in unprotected sex and got pregnant. This is probably what she was known best for in her pre-Robin days. She has that go get 'em determination, but back then she was angry. She was resentful. She became Spoiler to get back at her father, and to keep him from sucking her mother into another dependency spiral. When she finally got to face her father, she tried to strangle him with a length of chain. On more than one occasion, Tim had to force her to go back and save the lives of criminals. She continued to fight crime because she was an adrenaline junkie, and because she had a big sloppy crush on Timmy the Boy Wonder—-not because it was right or wrong, necessarily.
Working alongside Bruce—-for everything bad that came of it, during and after—-changed that in her, I feel. In Batgirl #53, Steph has a team-up with Cass that triggers memories of what it was like to grow up with a criminal for a father. As Robin, she questions what it will take to save girls like her from the cycle of particularly violent abuse that was commonplace in Gotham—-and there is no answer for her then. Ideas on choosing to fight in Gotham vs. surviving in Gotham percolated in that year abroad, and it redefined who she is when she is masked—-no matter what that mask may be. When the Batgirl mantle was thrust upon her, she decided that she was going to take the Bat symbol and make it mean hope, instead of just vengeance or justice. She took an active role in being someone brighter and more visible than a bat-shaped figure for the criminals to fear.
Since her time as Robin has been taken from her, that change may not have happened. Unless they calm her down from the start, she won't have transitioned from a vigilante who fights for Gotham, and a vigilante who fights to survive in Gotham. If that sounds like mincing words, I apologize, but it is significant. In Detective Comics #796, she almost accidentally kills Mr. Zsasz. She swoops in to save Batman from getting julienned, and if Bruce hadn't broken his nose beforehand, her automatic strike would have been a killing blow. Survival was first in her mind, thanks to years of hard knocks and trauma, so she looked to end fights without realizing that that was what she was doing. She was roughshod and reactionary. In order to fight the way Bruce Wayne decreed, she had to fight for something bigger than herself—-and she had to stop continually fighting the ghost of her upbringing.
Once that thread gets plucked away, more events unravel. She became Spoiler at fifteen, had her baby at sixteen, and crashed through War Games not long after that. So, if she is still a year older than Tim, she's seventeen. She just recently had her baby, if she had a baby. For all we know, she may not have ever met Tim.
This leaves me wondering who Stephanie is going to be in this new universe. The events that led to her becoming Batgirl have either been officially removed, or exist in that grayish limbo zone where all of the secondary characters are hanging out and discussing the good old days, so no: I don't think that she could have been Batgirl.
And that breaks my heart a little, I won't lie. Her comics will always exist, but she has been stripped of much of what made her a uniquely powerful positive influence—-and no, taking Batgirl from her was not what dragged her into the murky mire. Her life events have been contorted pretty badly with this piecemeal reboot.
All that being said, my challenge—-and okay, maybe my prayer—-to DC is this: build her up again. It's possible to update Stephanie to this generation of teenagers, and to make her accessible to girls who are desperately looking for heroines like her. She absolutely does not have to be Batgirl to be that hero. To me, what makes Steph great is that we all know someone like her—-someone who has had to work for everything, who fails often and spectacularly, but who keeps trying and is so genuine in her hope and optimism, you cheer for every one of her small victories. So, uh. I probably over-answered your question. Sorry!
I'm scared out of my wits about what the DCnU has planned for Steph and Cass. They've said that Steph is still going to be Spoiler and the prospect of her not ever being Batgirl at one point saddens me. Though I wouldn't really much care too much seeing as how she'd still be in the DCnU. If they'v effectively killed off her personality that was built up in Miller's Batgirl run I just…don't think I'd take it well. I fell in love with Steph for many reasons and her quirky hopeful personality was one of them. Even reading through Miller's run of Batgirl still makes me feel on my bad days because Steph's in general just makes me smile like crazy no matter what.
This goes double for Cass, nobody better mess with my ninja-girl. I really hope that most of her past is intact too. I mean, I can understand Steph not having the chance to be Batgirl due to the new timeline, but I hope Cass got her time. She deserves that much. Both deserve so much more for the cruddy things that have happened to both these girls.
It's lovely that the hopefulness in Steph was a big reason why people responded to her so deeply. Makes me happy and hopeful every time I read it.
Cass is intimidating. Those Puckett issues are so good, so clever. I don't know if ANYONE really captured that in the same way.
In DCnU continuity, have the other Batgirls (Cass, Stephanie, Charlotte) existed or is Barbara the one and only?
Whoops, sorry if this reblog looks messy. I haven't figured out how to cleanly reblog asks.
I'm not 100% certain about Cass, but I personally don't believe that it's possible for Steph to have been Batgirl. Barbara's paralysis only lasted three years, so there's just no way to fit all of what happened to both girls in that timeframe. Moreover, Tim has been aged back down to sixteen, right? Steph is supposed to be one year older than he is, which would put her at seventeen. Steph's connections to others haven't been confirmed—-i.e., did she date Tim when he was Robin? Was she still pregnant at fifteen/sixteen?—-so it's difficult to judge who she is in the reboot continuity.
We know (as far as I've been told, and the last that I've heard) that she wasn't a Robin. This is problematic, because if she wasn't a Robin, she didn't die. If she didn't die, she didn't go to Africa for a year. If she didn't go to Africa, she never had the time and the distance to reflect on what—-and who—-she was fighting for back in Gotham. I feel like she transitioned from fighting because she was trying to prove that she was good—-and not an apple bound to fall close to the rotten old Cluemaster tree—-and fighting because it was right. She's always been quick with the quips and raring for action, but I think that people forget how Steph was back in her pre-Robin days.
The Stephanie that Brian Q. Miller left us with in Batgirl #24 is a different person than the Spoiler that we were introduced to in the 90s. She was veeeeery clearly the product of the 90s, and fit the tone of Robin back then—-a 'teen problem' given a name and a face. The plots and characters were driven by issues that Oprah and D.A.R.E. were trying to drill into the youth of the time. Stephanie was a pregnant teenager from a broken home, not unlike Tim's other friends (who were regularly engaged in things like peer pressure to have sex, smoking (killer) marijuana, cancer, class bullying, and school shootings. In retrospect, there's a slight element of after school special parody going on in 90s Robin, and so there are issues in updating Spoiler!Steph for today's target audience.
Anyway. Steph was a latchkey kid who, without parental supervision, engaged in unprotected sex and got pregnant. This is probably what she was known best for in her pre-Robin days. She has that go get 'em determination, but back then she was angry. She was resentful. She became Spoiler to get back at her father, and to keep him from sucking her mother into another dependency spiral. When she finally got to face her father, she tried to strangle him with a length of chain. On more than one occasion, Tim had to force her to go back and save the lives of criminals. She continued to fight crime because she was an adrenaline junkie, and because she had a big sloppy crush on Timmy the Boy Wonder—-not because it was right or wrong, necessarily.
Working alongside Bruce—-for everything bad that came of it, during and after—-changed that in her, I feel. In Batgirl #53, Steph has a team-up with Cass that triggers memories of what it was like to grow up with a criminal for a father. As Robin, she questions what it will take to save girls like her from the cycle of particularly violent abuse that was commonplace in Gotham—-and there is no answer for her then. Ideas on choosing to fight in Gotham vs. surviving in Gotham percolated in that year abroad, and it redefined who she is when she is masked—-no matter what that mask may be. When the Batgirl mantle was thrust upon her, she decided that she was going to take the Bat symbol and make it mean hope, instead of just vengeance or justice. She took an active role in being someone brighter and more visible than a bat-shaped figure for the criminals to fear.
Since her time as Robin has been taken from her, that change may not have happened. Unless they calm her down from the start, she won't have transitioned from a vigilante who fights for Gotham, and a vigilante who fights to survive in Gotham. If that sounds like mincing words, I apologize, but it is significant. In Detective Comics #796, she almost accidentally kills Mr. Zsasz. She swoops in to save Batman from getting julienned, and if Bruce hadn't broken his nose beforehand, her automatic strike would have been a killing blow. Survival was first in her mind, thanks to years of hard knocks and trauma, so she looked to end fights without realizing that that was what she was doing. She was roughshod and reactionary. In order to fight the way Bruce Wayne decreed, she had to fight for something bigger than herself—-and she had to stop continually fighting the ghost of her upbringing.
Once that thread gets plucked away, more events unravel. She became Spoiler at fifteen, had her baby at sixteen, and crashed through War Games not long after that. So, if she is still a year older than Tim, she's seventeen. She just recently had her baby, if she had a baby. For all we know, she may not have ever met Tim.
This leaves me wondering who Stephanie is going to be in this new universe. The events that led to her becoming Batgirl have either been officially removed, or exist in that grayish limbo zone where all of the secondary characters are hanging out and discussing the good old days, so no: I don't think that she could have been Batgirl.
And that breaks my heart a little, I won't lie. Her comics will always exist, but she has been stripped of much of what made her a uniquely powerful positive influence—-and no, taking Batgirl from her was not what dragged her into the murky mire. Her life events have been contorted pretty badly with this piecemeal reboot.
All that being said, my challenge—-and okay, maybe my prayer—-to DC is this: build her up again. It's possible to update Stephanie to this generation of teenagers, and to make her accessible to girls who are desperately looking for heroines like her. She absolutely does not have to be Batgirl to be that hero. To me, what makes Steph great is that we all know someone like her—-someone who has had to work for everything, who fails often and spectacularly, but who keeps trying and is so genuine in her hope and optimism, you cheer for every one of her small victories. So, uh. I probably over-answered your question. Sorry!
The fact that DC is not saying anything about them makes me believe Steph was never Batgirl. Cass, I hope, is safe, because removing her time as Batgirl would remove most of her character and I don't think DC is that stupid. Then again, is not like DC hasn't done that before… remember Evil!Cass? Yeah.
Removing Steph's time as Batgirl would piss me off, but it would harm her character less, so I can deal with that.
Part of me wants both characters far away from the Batgirl title, because DC seems set on having Babs be The One and Only Batgirl That Matters, so maybe if they have their own identities we won't have to worry about DC sending them to Limboland every time they want to go back to the iconic one. Let Babs be Batgirl till she's in her 50s for all I care. Just stop benching the other two.
I have seen that kind of thing several times, that Babs is the 'One, True Batgirl,' and that sort of thing. I don't think it's necessary, at all. I liked Wally better than Barry, Ryan better than Ray, and Kyle better than Hal.
I don't see why Cass couldn't have been Batgirl. I did originally say that if no one picked up those two characters I would try to work them in Batgirl, and while I think that would be great fun, it DOES feel like hanging a lampshade on a demotion, to some degree, so I've changed my mind about that. I think they deserve better than being supporting characters in Babs' book.
I can't see DC putting out a Steph book, to be honest, at least not right away. Even with a great artist and the perfect writer, it didn't sustain sales, and if they take away the 'Batgirl' name from Steph, odds are it would have an even harder time finding an audience. If it were up to me, I'd put her in a team book, but one that focuses on her. Have her be the leader.
Cass, however, I think she could and should have her own book. Sales were dropping at the end, but that was for a number of reasons and the fans obviously miss her. Give her a book, make sure it's very different from the other bat-titles, and put a great artist over Kelly Puckett scripts and I bet it'd sell in really strong numbers.
Here's hoping. Cross your fingers.
In DCnU continuity, have the other Batgirls (Cass, Stephanie, Charlotte) existed or is Barbara the one and only?
Whoops, sorry if this reblog looks messy. I haven't figured out how to cleanly reblog asks.
I'm not 100% certain about Cass, but I personally don't believe that it's possible for Steph to have been Batgirl. Barbara's paralysis only lasted three years, so there's just no way to fit all of what happened to both girls in that timeframe. Moreover, Tim has been aged back down to sixteen, right? Steph is supposed to be one year older than he is, which would put her at seventeen. Steph's connections to others haven't been confirmed—-i.e., did she date Tim when he was Robin? Was she still pregnant at fifteen/sixteen?—-so it's difficult to judge who she is in the reboot continuity.
We know (as far as I've been told, and the last that I've heard) that she wasn't a Robin. This is problematic, because if she wasn't a Robin, she didn't die. If she didn't die, she didn't go to Africa for a year. If she didn't go to Africa, she never had the time and the distance to reflect on what—-and who—-she was fighting for back in Gotham. I feel like she transitioned from fighting because she was trying to prove that she was good—-and not an apple bound to fall close to the rotten old Cluemaster tree—-and fighting because it was right. She's always been quick with the quips and raring for action, but I think that people forget how Steph was back in her pre-Robin days.
The Stephanie that Brian Q. Miller left us with in Batgirl #24 is a different person than the Spoiler that we were introduced to in the 90s. She was veeeeery clearly the product of the 90s, and fit the tone of Robin back then—-a 'teen problem' given a name and a face. The plots and characters were driven by issues that Oprah and D.A.R.E. were trying to drill into the youth of the time. Stephanie was a pregnant teenager from a broken home, not unlike Tim's other friends (who were regularly engaged in things like peer pressure to have sex, smoking (killer) marijuana, cancer, class bullying, and school shootings. In retrospect, there's a slight element of after school special parody going on in 90s Robin, and so there are issues in updating Spoiler!Steph for today's target audience.
Anyway. Steph was a latchkey kid who, without parental supervision, engaged in unprotected sex and got pregnant. This is probably what she was known best for in her pre-Robin days. She has that go get 'em determination, but back then she was angry. She was resentful. She became Spoiler to get back at her father, and to keep him from sucking her mother into another dependency spiral. When she finally got to face her father, she tried to strangle him with a length of chain. On more than one occasion, Tim had to force her to go back and save the lives of criminals. She continued to fight crime because she was an adrenaline junkie, and because she had a big sloppy crush on Timmy the Boy Wonder—-not because it was right or wrong, necessarily.
Working alongside Bruce—-for everything bad that came of it, during and after—-changed that in her, I feel. In Batgirl #53, Steph has a team-up with Cass that triggers memories of what it was like to grow up with a criminal for a father. As Robin, she questions what it will take to save girls like her from the cycle of particularly violent abuse that was commonplace in Gotham—-and there is no answer for her then. Ideas on choosing to fight in Gotham vs. surviving in Gotham percolated in that year abroad, and it redefined who she is when she is masked—-no matter what that mask may be. When the Batgirl mantle was thrust upon her, she decided that she was going to take the Bat symbol and make it mean hope, instead of just vengeance or justice. She took an active role in being someone brighter and more visible than a bat-shaped figure for the criminals to fear.
Since her time as Robin has been taken from her, that change may not have happened. Unless they calm her down from the start, she won't have transitioned from a vigilante who fights for Gotham, and a vigilante who fights to survive in Gotham. If that sounds like mincing words, I apologize, but it is significant. In Detective Comics #796, she almost accidentally kills Mr. Zsasz. She swoops in to save Batman from getting julienned, and if Bruce hadn't broken his nose beforehand, her automatic strike would have been a killing blow. Survival was first in her mind, thanks to years of hard knocks and trauma, so she looked to end fights without realizing that that was what she was doing. She was roughshod and reactionary. In order to fight the way Bruce Wayne decreed, she had to fight for something bigger than herself—-and she had to stop continually fighting the ghost of her upbringing.
Once that thread gets plucked away, more events unravel. She became Spoiler at fifteen, had her baby at sixteen, and crashed through War Games not long after that. So, if she is still a year older than Tim, she's seventeen. She just recently had her baby, if she had a baby. For all we know, she may not have ever met Tim.
This leaves me wondering who Stephanie is going to be in this new universe. The events that led to her becoming Batgirl have either been officially removed, or exist in that grayish limbo zone where all of the secondary characters are hanging out and discussing the good old days, so no: I don't think that she could have been Batgirl.
And that breaks my heart a little, I won't lie. Her comics will always exist, but she has been stripped of much of what made her a uniquely powerful positive influence—-and no, taking Batgirl from her was not what dragged her into the murky mire. Her life events have been contorted pretty badly with this piecemeal reboot.
All that being said, my challenge—-and okay, maybe my prayer—-to DC is this: build her up again. It's possible to update Stephanie to this generation of teenagers, and to make her accessible to girls who are desperately looking for heroines like her. She absolutely does not have to be Batgirl to be that hero. To me, what makes Steph great is that we all know someone like her—-someone who has had to work for everything, who fails often and spectacularly, but who keeps trying and is so genuine in her hope and optimism, you cheer for every one of her small victories. So, uh. I probably over-answered your question. Sorry!
No, not at all, that was fantastic!
Look, I would love to say a reassuring thing here, but there are two factors, one is that I don't know, a lot of timeline stuff is being worked out by editors, rather than writers. The other thing is, it's too important to get wrong. If I offer an opinion based on incomplete knowledge, people will be disappointed and upset no matter what the outcome.
Everything you said makes a lot of sense to me, I think it's a brilliant summation. If anyone asks my opinion on this, I'm definitely going to forward them to your post.
I think it's possible to squeeze Cass' time as Batgirl in there, just compress it. Or she could have STARTED as Black Bat with only mostly superficial revision.
But you make a pretty good case that Steph would be a lot harder to work in easily. Her history is very involved; multiple identities, several different career phases, and her biggest stories are a problem in the newer continuity.
What she needs is a great writer to bring her back and focus just on her, establish her history and future. Bryan would be my first choice but Kelly P. would be amazing as well.
Don't know, sorry. What I do know, which isn't much, I'm very reluctant to discuss at this point for the above mentioned reasons.
But thanks again, your post was amazing.
The Fluffy Singularity: Geek Girl Con This Weekend!
I'm doing this event because I really believe in it.
Some kickass women decided there wasn't a con that really said everything they want to say, so they got together and created one. I could not be happier.
The event is at the EMP building in Seattle, which is worth a visit on…
WHAT? You have to come say hello or it's TROUBLE for you!
Lost Oracle: Huntress Day
I need to celebrate something amidst the sad news dominating my Twitter feed, so now is as good a time as any to do a "quick" post on today's 'Huntress #1' a.k.a. 2011's Huntress #1, DCnU's Huntress #1, etc. Things is, there have been plenty of #1s for the Huntress — love her title as "Queen of…
Yay! Huntress Day!
My Special Yell Thing: gailsimone: My Special Yell Thing: So, apparently Catman's bi. Yay for...
My Special Yell Thing: So, apparently Catman's bi. Yay for him, and for bi readers now…
So, apparently Catman's bi.
Yay for him, and for bi readers now slightly more represented in comics (as it were, considering Catman's still under the radar…
Well, again, this is very thoughtful stuff and I appreciate the kind words. I don't think you're being nitpicky at all, these are fair points. I disagree with a couple and a couple I have to mark down to missed opportunities, which ultimately is always going to be the fault of the creative team, including editorial.
Possibly my favorite thing about doing Volume II, which was fraught with editorial disagreements and artist problems (many of which were unfortunately unavoidable, like unexpected illnesses), was getting to finally put Savant and Creote together in canon. It was a similar thing to what I've said with Catman…I knew they were supposed to end up together, but the space wasn't there in my last few issues of Volume I to show it. So I was really happy to tell that story even if, in retrospect, I would have made some adjustments.
Let me just bullet point your other comments a little bit, if that's cool. Again, I think these are fair observations.
I think Creote was established as having loyalty to Savant, mostly. Savant wanted to try to make good with Canary and Oracle, and Creote had the connections in Russia, so that meant he was a good operative for that mission. He did it because Savant asked him to.
The one thing I still disagree with is Scandal. I still don't see how showing her love life and sex life is really a problem…we didn't show her as pandering to the male gaze, her relationships with Kay and Liana were never about the straight male gaze in any particular sense. It was just that she was the romantic of the group. She says she's gay explicitly twice, I think, the rest is just story and her character, and I think many of her most memorable moments are non-romantic, such as her relationship with Bane.
I guess that bit puzzles me a little, to be honest. I agree that it would have been nice to see more of Creote and Savant together on panel, even as supporting characters, but I'm not sure I see what having Scandal's romantic life getting less screen time would do that's positive.
As part of that, I also disagree a little that we haven't been reminded of other sixers' sexuality, even if they didn't have as much of a romantic turn as Scandal. Floyd's heterosexuality came up often, as did Bane's desire for Spencer.
The odd thing for me, and this isn't about your post, but, man, since this book started, I've been hearing about the clear romantic vibe between Floyd and Blake, just endlessly. I found it all charming and amusing, I never denied it, it's mentioned in many, maybe most of the reviews and commentaries. I don't think 'bromance' covers it…it's clear that Floyd and Blake care more about each other than they are comfortable admitting and sometimes, they seem almost obsessed with each other. I think that subtext has always been there like a neon sign…but Black and Lawton aren't really any good about talking about their feelings, and Blake, who is the superhothot dude of the group, has never really expressed much in the way of his feelings sexually in the book for ANYONE but Huntress, so she is looming large in his sex life, which excludes others. Jeannette is in the same boat—she's bisexual, but her obsession right now is Floyd. But she TALKS more about what she wants than Blake, so we at least had oblique reference to her openness to relationships with other women (which we see in her hatred/attraction with Amazons).
I talked about Deadshot's reaction if Blake had come out to him on another thread—my initial thought was, yeah, Lawton would probably have some shock. Then I thought, no no no, it's much more Lawton if he already knows and could not care less. It's not that he's so enlightened, it's that he genuinely doesn't give a shit what other people do because he's not a hypocrite. Of all the Six, Blake is probably the one least likely to show his feelings, even more so than Lawton. I always felt the 'Secret' Six meant secret as in personal, not secret as in covert.
My opinion is that Blake is fired by an animal impulse, he wants what he wants, he doesn't care what Lawton or anyone else things, and when someone gives off the scent, he responds in an animal way. His feelings for Huntress hurt and confuse him, they take him out of his own control. He doesn't like it, he resents it. But he still pursues it.
This is starting to sound a little inside, but that was the approach I had for the characters. I don't know if it's obvious but I MISS WRITING THE SECRET SIX. :)
Anyway, fun comments, thank you for giving me the opportunity to present what was in my head at the time. I agree, again, with the idea that it would have been lovely to show Creote and Savant in their downtime. And you're right, they did become very popular supporting characters…Savant was originally supposed to die in the first arc he appeared in but he immediately struck a chord and Creote followed soon after. The dichotomy was that giving two guys lots of page time in the ONLY successful female team superhero book in DC and Marvel history seemed like it would be doing a disservice to the core team, as well. The perils of a team book are always about balance and panel time!
Gail Simone's Blog
- Gail Simone's profile
- 1221 followers
