Geoff > Status Update

Cody wrote: "Jesus. Guys: my perspective: strong exhibition of mob mentality going on toward Wastrel. Discourse, not draw-and-quarter.

That’s just my etic perspective, though. I’ve got no skin in this game, a..."

error must be corrected.

David wrote: "Cody wrote: "Jesus. Guys: my perspective: strong exhibition of mob mentality going on toward Wastrel. Discourse, not draw-and-quarter.

That’s just my etic perspective, though. I’ve got no skin in..."

By your metric? By mine? By what means?

Complex stuff, buddy.

“Error must be corrected.”

You writing Radiohead lyrics now?

Cody wrote: "David wrote: "Cody wrote: "Jesus. Guys: my perspective: strong exhibition of mob mentality going on toward Wastrel. Discourse, not draw-and-quarter.

That’s just my etic perspective, though. I’ve ..."

It's only natural for tempers to flare some when discussing the state of the world. If you look back I think you'll find Wastrel's post was actually rather insulting ( Depending, of course, on how many Sanders voters were actually willing to vote for a woman.] etc).


As for epistemology, I think one can dispute the idea of a thriving economic recovery since '08 by pointing to certain demographic data; for instance, the fact that life expectancy continues to drop in the US

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-li...

But it’s an ideological circle jerk without dissent, no? And flame feeds flame.

As for life expectancy: we both know there are far more than socio-economic factors that must be included. Ex: wholesale addiction to pharmaceuticals, and its rise since in the last decade.

Error is beautiful.

How is it without dissent? W and I were just disagreeing... just like you and I are now disagreeing.

David wrote: "Cody wrote: "David wrote: "Cody wrote: "Jesus. Guys: my perspective: strong exhibition of mob mentality going on toward Wastrel. Discourse, not draw-and-quarter.

That’s just my etic perspective, ..."

Like I said, not specifically you. Just the timbre is awful toward anyone with a differing opinion from the mass.

One way: how can we move forward now?

Other, rude take: Bernie lost: like I told you from the outset, never had a chance: get the fuck over it: find your next cause.

See? That’s rude. Yes: Error can be corrected, but courtesy needn’t go out the window.

Absolutism is exhausting.

Cody wrote: " Just the timbre is awful toward anyone with a differing opinion from the mass."

Cody, you know I love you and respect you, but I have to say the discourtesy arose from Wastrel's first comment above. Which, honestly, isn't a big deal. I think some degree of conflict is probably healthy right now, for all of us, and is a calculus of how much we care.

I appreciate you stepping in as peacemaker, fulfilling your role as elder statesman in this GR orbit, but there is a time to every purpose, my friend. And if Wastrel feels strongly enough to get snarky with me, that in and of itself is useful for me. It teaches me something. For my part, aside from some despairing commentary and doomery, I think it's been pretty civil.

In any event, I missed this...

It's not clear if you want there to be dissent or if you want everyone to agree; the two are actually contradictory.

David wrote: "It's not clear if you want there to be dissent or if you want everyone to agree; the two are actually contradictory."

(that was directed towards Cody)

David wrote: "David wrote: "It's not clear if you want there to be dissent or if you want everyone to agree; the two are actually contradictory."

(that was directed towards Cody)"

How did you miss the parenthetical where I said it wasn't necessarily you? That it was you and I three-years ago, but not especially now?

As for elder statesman: you mean OLDER. I do believe you're the elder GR member in that you've been here longer. Yes, I'm older. Perspective is a helluva thing.

Dissent: again, what it is confusing? CLARITY: dissent is good, but being pricks is not...(apply liberally to life). No one comes to see the light by being spoken to like they're an asshole (I used the 'light' as you started hewing toward ecclesiastical in your post). I'm not defending Wastrel as much as pointing out that this thread is charged with far too much self-edifying feedback that turns to bloodsport if anyone FEELS differently. Maybe relativism?

You told me that you could feel that change in the air, that you were positive for humanity. Why not focus toward that, rather than daisy-chain dogma among the already like-minded? Did Bernie's capitulation kill that belief? I can't believe that it did, or that means you would have seen him as a Messiah. What is wrong with attempting to entreat Wastrel (or anyone) with positivity rather than invective? In the game of politics, doesn't much of this come down to arithmetic, thus it being antithetical to keep others at bay by an inability or unwillingness toward civility.

Like I said, I will fuck off. I'm going to as this takes time away from anything else I could be doing (eh, stabbing myself with a pencil; shoving onions in my eyes). I was simply pointing out the disparity between the gentlemen I know IN REAL LIFE versus their avatars on here. I prefer the former, and don't see the need for dividuation.

To parry: The kingdom of Heaven is within.

xx
Old Man River, soon dead of age (written from my dotage)

Cody wrote: " One way: how can we move forward now?"

I think that's precisely the bone of genuine contention, and there's no real consensus.

ATJG wrote: "Cody wrote: " Just the timbre is awful toward anyone with a differing opinion from the mass."

Cody, you know I love you and respect you, but I have to say the discourtesy arose from Wastrel's firs..."

Jesus! I thought David wrote that. Fucking phones.

Everything still applies, excepting a few things. My only point was you all have the power to rise above. I see you all do it everyday.

Back to those onions

Cody wrote: "David wrote: "David wrote: "It's not clear if you want there to be dissent or if you want everyone to agree; the two are actually contradictory."

(that was directed towards Cody)"

How did you mis..."

The past week has been a rather trying time for optimism, with the plague and so on. I think civility is a good quality in everyday life, but I must humbly opine that when it comes to political discourse "civility" is usually a trope to manufacture consent.

David wrote: "Cody wrote: "David wrote: "David wrote: "It's not clear if you want there to be dissent or if you want everyone to agree; the two are actually contradictory."

(that was directed towards Cody)"

Ho..."

Well I contend that’s a convenient trope excusing acting in whatever way the royal YOU see fit.

Plague? Really? Nothing should defeat optimism, especially something as common as death.

Plague? Why not pestilence? Bring the other two horses while they’re saddled.

I cited an article on demographic data, and another on Warren's political record... if you think that's intolerably uncivil, that sort of proves my point.

David wrote: "I cited an article on demographic data, and another on Warren's political record... if you think that's intolerably uncivil, that sort of proves my point."

David, we all know that you posted those links to data and information with your middle finger.

BTW, wanna catch up at the guillotines in Central Park later this weekend?

Trying to wrap my head around a complete shutdown of the global economy and/or hundreds of thousands of excess deaths in the US in the coming months. Seems like things about to get really uncivil.


http://links.org.au/mike-davis-covid-...

Ian wrote: "David wrote: "I cited an article on demographic data, and another on Warren's political record... if you think that's intolerably uncivil, that sort of proves my point."

David, we all know that yo..."

David,

Coyness is nice/and coyness can stop you...

You’re acting as if your altruism exceeds others’. Ian is right: you’re playing a role. You understand that. We all are: I’m elder statesman, you’re young agitator. But, come on, if civility equals consent to you, our calculi are too far apart to even bother broaching.

As to your ‘plague’ incivility: YOU still control your behaviors. Why must others’ theoretical incivility excuse yours (or mine, etc). I’m sorry, but I believe there is honor and dignity and that these are inviolable within each of us.

Cody wrote: "Ian wrote: "David wrote: "I cited an article on demographic data, and another on Warren's political record... if you think that's intolerably uncivil, that sort of proves my point."

David, we all ..."

Cody, it's not a "plague" in quotation marks; it's been declared a global pandemic by the WHO. And my tone was not a response to anyone's theoretical incivility but a response to W's patently rude and ignorant comments about Sanders supporters, but for fuck's sake who caaaaaares. Why are you so intent on getting offended on his behalf?

David: you wrote PLAGUE. This isn’t the plague. Per your metric, words do matter.

Again: it’s about the hyena-mentality, not him.

You realize if he was being rude about Trump you’d champion him, right? It’s just not YOUR guy, so he’s wrong. Yet again, absolutism is frightening to me.

As is your first statement that began all this: ERROR MUST BE CORRECTED. That was what has been upsetting: that you think of yourself as a corrective. You’re not. You’re biotic matter rapidly hurtling to death and attempting to cleave onto meaning somehow.

Would you correct MY errors? Would you like if I proposed to correct YOURS?

The role of ingenue is filled. And relying on the sources you do for your information is something you may want to reassess. Vetting is a thing; well, used to be.

Anyone needs any toilet paper, your luck is out of shit. Plague.

C

Cody wrote: "And relying on the sources you do for your information is something you may want to reassess. "

You're saying I should stop citing Business Insider?

David wrote: "Cody wrote: "And relying on the sources you do for your information is something you may want to reassess. "

You're saying I should stop citing Business Insider?"

David,

In a few words, I think you should unplug for a bit. Business Insider is hardly objective reportage. Differentiate data and fact.

I’m also saying that the very fact that my mere proposal of being gentlemen—everyone—has elicited this response. I’m sure you can follow that argument.

I didn’t toe the line, ergo I must be corrected. If you can’t see that’s what you’re doing, I’m sorry for agitating the agitator.

Meanwhile...all of this expenditure could’ve been put to something far grander.

Isn’t it a pity, George?

Cody, genuinely curious, why are you ignoring W's bad faith (suggesting all Bernie supporters are misogynists, for one, in a long litany of bad faith arguments against Sanders and his supports) and just focusing on David's pithy defense of his claims?

Cody wrote: "David wrote: "Cody wrote: "And relying on the sources you do for your information is something you may want to reassess. "

You're saying I should stop citing Business Insider?"

David,

In a few w..."

The joke was that Business Insider is not a Marxist publication; I actually often read/cite sources whose authors' worldview is contrary to my own. Jonathan and I have disagreed on Israel before. I hardly think our exchange above amounts to acrimonious mud-slinging. Regardless, you're free to view me as a rude young(er) man, but I'd prefer to focus on issues of substance.

Ian wrote: "Cody, genuinely curious, why are you ignoring W's bad faith (suggesting all Bernie supporters are misogynists, for one, in a long litany of bad faith arguments against Sanders and his supports) and..."

Because I despise gang mentality. Honestly. If he’s a fucking idiot—Wastrel—then why bother? But the idea that I proposed mere mutual respect from intelligent people being so beyond David’s grasp rankles. And, honestly, the passive-aggressive thing is childish and tired.
This has naught to do with Wastrel: it has to do with the fact that I know these men, and none would act so ungainly in person.

David wrote: "Cody wrote: "David wrote: "Cody wrote: "And relying on the sources you do for your information is something you may want to reassess. "

You're saying I should stop citing Business Insider?"

David..."

And all I proposed was to do so in a way becoming the very heart I know beats within you, friend. Then, this. Your deep humanity will always overcome factoid bullshit churned up by the non-stop news edifice. I believe this too.

xx

From my point of view, these echo chambers arise because the hatred of outsiders is so toxic. I try to look in at this thread every now and then, but it's page after page of, in essence, telling me (and the overwhelming majority of the left wing, and most of the independents, and all of the right wing) to go fuck myself. Not just that we're wrong or that you don't like us, but that we're evil, unconscionable, traitors (well, those of us who live in your country, at least), that any vaguely intelligent person who was not evil would inevitably agree with you. Why? Because we want to improve the world, rather than compete in saying how much we hate it (a weltzschmerz that, as I say, I find strongly objectionable in its privilege).

[we're only supporting Biden to "save the gravy train", we're "grotesque", it's "sick and horrible", we wouldn't support Sanders in the general, Biden is a "septuagenerian dementia patient", his victory will "kill us", "every election is voting for leg loss", Biden supporters have made a decision "devoid of information, and utterly confused", he's a "shit candidate", "what the fuck is wrong with 'BBQ' Joe Biden", Bloomberg is a "piece of shit" and people who backed him were corrupt and should be "permanently banned from public office", Warren "genuinely disgusts me", "what the hell is wrong with Warren", only "abusive Bernie Bros" appropriate "grasp" the severity of the situation, everyone else is a "centrist hack", Warren is "grotesque and craven", "I hope Sanders never apologises for [abusive behaviour by his supporters] again", if we "get our feelings hurt" by abuse we should just just "log off", etc etc etc]

On three specific points:
- I didn't say that Bill Clinton decreased incarceration. I explicitly said that he didn't. I said that the last time the "Obama/Biden/Clinton left" were in power, they decreased incarceration for the first time since Lyndon Johnson. The last time the O/B/C left was in power was the Obama administration (Obama was President, Biden was Vice-President and Clinton was Secretary of State, while Obama took many policy ideas (including Obamacare) from Clinton's campaign platform - so I think that characterisation is fair).

- the idea that "there was no recovery" is ridiculous, and, again, deeply privileged. Unemployment has fallen from 10% to 3.6%, that's pretty important. Average real hourly wages have risen something like 20-25% since the early Clinton years (before that, they'd fallen consistently since the mid-70s), despite flattening and even dipping under Bush and Trump, thanks to big increases in the late 2000s and in the 2013-2016 period (on paper there was also a big increase 2008-2010, but that's a bit illusory as unemployment was still rising, so more of the growth actually took place in the later period). The home foreclosure rate has fallen from 2.3% to under 0.5%. When Obama took over, around 640,000 were homeless; when the recession was ending around 2012, that number had fallen to 620,000 (the fact it fell at all at a time when unemployment had risen sharply and GDP had contracted is itself impressive!); in Obama's second term, that number fell to 550,000 - a 10% decline in just 4 years. [under Trump the fall has stalled, and by 2018 it had risen to 553,000]. In particular, the number of unsheltered homeless fell by nearly 25% in Obama's second term. Real incomes have risen, real household debt has fallen, and the ratio of debt to disposable income has fallen from nearly 120% to around 80%.

So yeah, the US has seen a recovery.

- I didn't think it was, relatively speaking, 'insulting' to note the reality that Sanders particularly appeals to men, and particularly to men who are skeptical of voting for a female candidate. He also has the support overwhelmingly of highly sexist voters, although I'm not suggesting that those are a majority of his supporters (though they're certainly loud).

- oh, and on that life expectancy point: that shows that for the first 6 years of Obama, life expectancy rose. It only fell (slightly) the last two years of the administration, at a point when both houses had been handed to the Republicans (by "Democrats" who felt they didn't need to vote because the party hadn't done enough to pander to their "enthusiasm"...)


But yeah, I'll leave you guys alone again now. Oh look, Twitter's been taken over by Sanders supporters screaming about how the coronavirus pandemic is a great thing because it'll be a "boomer remover" and all boomers deserve to die. Great to see where this movement is headed...

Wastrel wrote: "From my point of view, these echo chambers arise because the hatred of outsiders is so toxic. I try to look in at this thread every now and then, but it's page after page of, in essence, telling me..."

Further clarity: BBQ Joe Biden was a joke. I don’t give a fuck about him, Sanders, Trump or any of them. Stupidly I do care about you guys.

Just a note from me - I respect all of you, this site, and this thread. I think we also need to allow a little venting from time to time in safe, anonymous spaces like this. Times are scary, frustrating, exasperating, heartbreaking. Nerves and tempers are frayed. Sometimes we need a bit of echo chambering just to reassure and keep us sane. Sometimes we need to be able to overreact and be given lenience.

Jonathan wrote: "Just a note from me - I respect all of you, this site, and this thread. I think we also need to allow a little venting from time to time in safe, anonymous spaces like this. Times are scary, frustr..."

Fantastic.

Meanwhile in the real world, people are looting the liquor store on my street. Because overreaction doesn’t have a rippling effect.

Ta, gents. Off to stand in front of my house with a goddamn rifle because of overreaction.

Remember me well!

Wastrel wrote: "From my point of view, these echo chambers arise because the hatred of outsiders is so toxic. I try to look in at this thread every now and then, but it's page after page of, in essence, telling me..."

Gotta admit it’s a strange kind of recovery when life expectancy continues to decline because the working class is killing them selves en masse, no?

@wastrel, since you love statistics so much, feast your eyes on this


https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/articl...

Cody wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Just a note from me - I respect all of you, this site, and this thread. I think we also need to allow a little venting from time to time in safe, anonymous spaces like this. Times ..."

Cody - that wasn't a dig at you! It was not meant to be a dig at anyone! I was just trying to express the fact that all of us (me included) are on edge right now.

@W, consider that your assumptions are false

https://www.salon.com/2020/03/09/ther...

A general note to British friends and comrades: please kindly refrain from lecturing Americans on “privilege” when you all have the NHS and we are facing a once-in-a-century pandemic without anything vaguely comparable.

Stay safe, everyone. I’m watching guys buy ammo by the THOUSANDS. Hand to God.

Be good to one another.

Cody

Cody wrote: "Stay safe, everyone. I’m watching guys buy ammo by the THOUSANDS. Hand to God.

Be good to one another.

Cody"

Honestly, Cody, I feel like that is the underlying dynamic of this whole discussion. You have more money than me and live in a house in Southern California. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to self-quarantine when you’re a small time hustler without any benefits who lives in a tiny apartment in San Francisco. I’m not asking you for pity or anything else, but simply consider that the difference in our circumstances is part of what makes us assign different value to the importance of being civil online.

David wrote: "Cody wrote: "Stay safe, everyone. I’m watching guys buy ammo by the THOUSANDS. Hand to God.

Be good to one another.

Cody"

Honestly, Cody, I feel like that is the underlying dynamic of this who..."

Hey David!

Go fuck yourself! I come from a fucking ghetto, kid. Gangland. Foreclosure. Eviction. Whatever money you suppose I have, I hustled every goddamn bit myself. And I’m self-employed: you think I have a single benefit? NOT ONE. You’re from Duluth. You CHOOSE to move to SF. I live around 32-million people—but I’m south of you so you can assume away in your basement. You’re a self-righteous prick. Sorry I chose to work for what you assume is luxury rather than fucking whine about shit.

Proof: why did you assume I was buying ammo? I was warning people of what I saw! I was at an outdoor store buying fishing lures as I’m going to take my daughter during her time off. Is that PRIVILEGE to you?

Enjoy your plague and sanctimony. I’m going to enjoy French literature, you ass.

See: there’s you incivility.

Cody wrote: "David wrote: "Cody wrote: "Stay safe, everyone. I’m watching guys buy ammo by the THOUSANDS. Hand to God.

Be good to one another.

Cody"

Honestly, Cody, I feel like that is the underlying dynam..."

mask comes off civility discourse: the rich lecturing the poor on their manners.

Someone has to be the adult here. Guess it’s me. I have to explain what’s going on to a 6-yr-old.

I politely ask for you to refrain from contacting me in any way, David. I wish you luck now and in perpetuity.

Cody

Just to put a different light on Bernie Bros narrative. Men may be the loudest and rudest on the internet but a big chunk of Sanders support is actually young women. Just putting that out there. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/gy...

Here are some more demographics on Sanders's coalition. White middle-aged men of the PMC might be loud and rude but not representative of the coalition.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...

Hi, y'all. Jumping in at random--noticing some anger--ignoring it. Just in case this message reaches someone with the option to vote in U.S. elections, the message is the same as usual: If your state hasn't had its primary yet, vote Bernie. When it's all done, vote for the Democratic nominee, whoever that is, and forget all else. Yes, it sucks that it's probably going to be Biden. Yes, it sucks that Biden can lose even more easily than Hillary, and voting for her and losing in 2016 was painful. Do it anyway. We can't handle a 7 to 2 conservative majority in the supreme court for all of the foreseeable future, we can't handle never-ending assaults on democracy, and we can't handle four more years of absolute incompetence and unabashed corruption. The biggest horror existing in America, sadly, is the electorate. If you sit this one out, or don't use your vote specifically to take Trump out of the white house, you choose to add to the horror. Can you imagine MLK saying "the system's against us, so just give up?" I can't. Be a hero, take down the fascists or go down fighting. And to our friends in nations other than the U.S., same message: take down the fascists, the nationalists, the xenophobes, and the militarists, or at least never give up the struggle. We've got countless compatriots just waiting for someone to show them what it means to stand up and fight for what's right.

Zadignose wrote: "Hi, y'all. Jumping in at random--noticing some anger--ignoring it. Just in case this message reaches someone with the option to vote in U.S. elections, the message is the same as usual: If your sta..."

Z

Great enthusiasm and sentiment. So weird to see the second state primary delayed. Concerning, yes. Yet...I remain hopeful. What else is there?

All the best to you

Y'all thinking there's still going to be an election in November?

Ian wrote: "Y'all thinking there's still going to be an election in November?"

In my heart, yes. Head, not so sure.

Strange days have found us.

The US Supreme Court has some quite aged judges. Nightmare scenario is several of them get coronavirus and Trump fills it out with his appointees. Could be right-wing for many years to come

Ian wrote: "Y'all thinking there's still going to be an election in November?"

A presidential election is a huge deal and more problematic and contentious to postpone, but although the UK is making few restrictions so far, our local and mayoral elections for May have been postponed by a year.

America should end. It's time.