Geoff > Status Update

Cody I was talking generally, man. I know you are not a Trumpet!

David wrote: "(Sorry, I don't mean to be flip about the history of communism, although I do think it's usually written with a heavy dose of victors' justice and a whitewashing of capitalism's often comparable cr..."

If both ideologies, Capitalism and Communism, have wrought murder and suffering, rape and theft, perhaps the problem is us. Just us. We're animals sick with language deluding ourselves into belief that we could build a society leaving out our nightmares. I think we probably can't. I think it's the peculiar genius of our species that whatever the prevailing ideology of the day, rest assured we can twist it to spell D-O-O-M.

ATJG wrote: "David wrote: "(Sorry, I don't mean to be flip about the history of communism, although I do think it's usually written with a heavy dose of victors' justice and a whitewashing of capitalism's often..."

While there is truth to this, I think it's kind of narrow thinking to say "Well shit, we tried two ways and they didn't work - fuck it." Maybe a third way? Or a fourth?

Geoff wrote: "ATJG wrote: "David wrote: "(Sorry, I don't mean to be flip about the history of communism, although I do think it's usually written with a heavy dose of victors' justice and a whitewashing of capit..."

I agree. Even certainty of failure is no absolution of the responsibility to do what's right. I just think the classic argument between Capitalist and Communist ideologies is us once again blaming on our boots the faults of our feet.

Geoff wrote: "David is pointing out this problem. "

Humor me and look through his updates... MANY of them openly discuss the need for a violent uprising as a necessary means to his Marxist end. I'm not the only one who has noticed this.

I'm not interested in debating/discussing prior atrocities in the name of x or y economic approach. I'm talking about a person on our board who is actively proposing such measures take place NOW for his economic ideal.

Nick wrote: "Geoff wrote: "David is pointing out this problem. "

Humor me and look through his updates... MANY of them openly discuss the need for a violent uprising as a necessary means to his Marxist end. I'..."

David's just being honest, Nick. He has the integrity that many Marxists who enjoy the comforts of Western consumer culture do not.

Moreover, the only way Capitalism maintains its stranglehold is at the business end of a rifle. It's permanent violence. You could at least acknowledge that much and meet David's honesty with your own in equal measure.

The reason so many Marxists accept violence as a necessary outcome of massive societal change is because the wealthy and powerful would certainly commit violence against the poor and oppressed rather than give up their privilege and wealth. Marxists recognize old orders don't go away without a fight. Many would say the structure of our police/law/legal/prison system is this very fight being enacted against the poor and oppressed right now. ATJG is right - David is accepting as truth that violence is the way of change, or at least has been. Look at the civil rights struggles in the south, for a limited and immediate example. There Will Be Blood is a fantastic title for that movie about a ruthless capitalist.

I have heard directly from the mouths of Republicans that they would rather go out in a blaze of gunfire than give up a single one of their guns if they were banned. This kind of thing. When blacks protest on city streets because they feel they have no voice in the sociopolitical sphere, militarized police show up en masse. This kind of thing. There will be blood.

And do I have to reiterate that there is blood, all the time, here and all over the world, so that we might live in our relative comfort and peace?

Geoff wrote: "And do I have to reiterate that there is blood, all the time, here and all over the world, so that we might live in our relative comfort and peace?"

You don't have to reiterate but you should. People don't like remembering that their iphone contains ore from failed African states where warlords command phalanxes of child miners. It's uncomfortable to remember our friendly reality is predicated on astonishing suffering. Reiterating with the aim of wider acknowledgement is the least we can do.

ATJG wrote: "Geoff wrote: "And do I have to reiterate that there is blood, all the time, here and all over the world, so that we might live in our relative comfort and peace?"

You don't have to reiterate but y..."

Yup

Geoff wrote: "The reason so many Marxists accept violence as a necessary outcome of massive societal change is because the wealthy and powerful would certainly commit violence against the poor and oppressed rath..."

Oh c'mon, you can say that about anything... like terrorism and Islam. It doesn't make it acceptable.

ATJG wrote: "You don't have to reiterate but you should. People don't like remembering that their iphone contains ore from failed African states where warlords command phalanxes of child miners. It's uncomfortable to remember our friendly reality is predicated on astonishing suffering. Reiterating with the aim of wider acknowledgement is the least we can do. "

I hate to break it to you, but that's not caused by capitalism.

Nick wrote: "ATJG wrote: "You don't have to reiterate but you should. People don't like remembering that their iphone contains ore from failed African states where warlords command phalanxes of child miners. It..."

Please see above comment regarding faults of feet blamed on boots.

Well acceptable isn't what I was getting at. It's just real. I find aspects of reality unacceptable all the time, yet there they are.

And Nick, it's totally, 100% capitalism's fault.

Geoff wrote: "Well acceptable isn't what I was getting at. It's just real. I find aspects of reality unacceptable all the time, yet there they are."

So him calling for a violent uprising is totally cool with you?

Geoff wrote: "And Nick, it's totally, 100% capitalism's fault."

No, it's not. You already stated the problem: "failed African states where warlords command..."

Nick wrote: "Geoff wrote: "Well acceptable isn't what I was getting at. It's just real. I find aspects of reality unacceptable all the time, yet there they are."

So him calling for a violent uprising is totall..."

Gee, Geoff, why are those African states "failed"? Probably because they're backwards people who resist full integration of global free market policies, right?

ATJG wrote: "Nick wrote: "Geoff wrote: "Well acceptable isn't what I was getting at. It's just real. I find aspects of reality unacceptable all the time, yet there they are."

So him calling for a violent upris..."

Yes, these are all part of the same web of fuckery

The entire concept of a "failed state" is only conceivable in a world where capitalism sets the terms and is the determining agent.

Nick wrote: "Love David avoiding every question and point Cody brought up. He's lost his fucking mind. Enjoy your pipe dream of a communist Utopia. Your openness for violence in the name of Marxism is complete ..."

The French election is non-violent. Where was I espousing violence?

I have read extensively about the holomodor and the terror. To say I was denying it is ridiculous. Cody was changing the subject (and, if it's relevant, grossly inflating the body count Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin). Neither you nor him have been willing to even acknowledge the demographic catastrophe in the former USSR.

If you voted Donald Trump (for the very noble reason of wanting lower taxes to buy more first editions haha), you are in favor of violence. Anyone who supports the US military-industrial complex is in favor of violence, but, based on these past weeks, Trump especially.

The only one denying atrocities would be yourself. Are you willing to acknowledge any of the killing fields of capitalism? It's not clear that you ever read any history, but take a gander at the Cambridge History of the Cold War:
'Between the onset of the global Cold War in 1948 and its conclusion in 1990, the US government secured the overthrow of at least twenty-four governments in Latin America, four by direct use of US military forces , three by means of CIA-managed revolts or assassinations, and seventeen by encouraging local military and political forces to intervene without direct US participation, usually through military coup d'etat ... The human cost of this effort was immense. Between 1960, by which time the Soviets had dismantled Stalin's gulags, and the Soviet collapse of 1990, the numbers of political prisoners, torture victims, and execution of nonviolent political dissenters vastly exceeded those in the Soviet Union and its East European satellites. In other words, from 1960 to 1990, the Soviet bloc as a whole was less repressive, measured in terms of human victims, than many individuals Latin American countries. The hot Cold War in Central American produced an unprecedented humanitarian catastrophe. Between 1975 and 1991, the death toll alone stood at nearly 300,000 in a population of less than 30 million.' -from the Cambridge History of the Cold War, vol. 3, pp. 220-1

@Nick, oh and I'm seeming to recall that you once said the death penalty isn't used often enough in this country.

So your commitment to non-violence doesn't impress for a fucking second.

You ever consider that someone on one of these threads might have friends in prison or in the criminal class? think we're all clutching our precious-ass first editions?... But of course any talk about redistributing wealth is tantamount to unacceptable violence.

David wrote: "Nick wrote: "Love David avoiding every question and point Cody brought up. He's lost his fucking mind. Enjoy your pipe dream of a communist Utopia. Your openness for violence in the name of Marxism..."

But none of it was capitalism's fault. What could you do when they refused peaceful integration into US-led Free World? You couldn't just let the commies take over. The US had to go in to save those people from themselves!

That might look like sarcasm but I had this said to me in earnest by an pologist of the military industrial complex in almost exactly the same words. At least this explains thinking patterns within American establishment and its cheerleaders.

Capitalism and imperialism are bedfellows. Have always been. The world looks so much better when you're on the giving end. I think that's why there isn't enough acknowledgment in the US (and prior to that in Europe) of the crimes their own capitalistic systems have committed in the name of first civilisation and empire and later for the sake of "freedom and democracy."

Don't get me wrong. I love freedom and democracy - the one that comes without the quotations marks.

David's anger is entirely justified - it's infuriating talking to people (mostly on the right) who are completely fine with turning a blind eye to kidnapping and forced labor of children in mines, whose limbs are sometimes hacked off, if it supplies us the minerals we need for our iPhones or wedding rings, but are horrified and demand action if a black teen breaks a shop window in Baltimore protesting police brutality.

David wrote: "@Nick, oh and I'm seeming to recall that you once said the death penalty isn't used often enough in this country."

Wrong. I said I support the death penalty. And I really could care less if your best friend is on death row. Being a proponent of the death penalty because someone brutally murdered a family is hardly the same as espousing death in the name of your political ideal. Am I supposed to feel sorry for someone in jail because they committed a crime (and even more absurd, sorry that you're friends with them)?

You reference my "precious first editions" a couple times, which really seems to strike a chord in you. I won't apologize for living a comfortable life after busting my ass to get here (no, I wasn't given a silver spoon).

David wrote: "But of course any talk about redistributing wealth is tantamount to unacceptable violence. "

Don't even pretend you haven't been preaching for a violent uprising since November.

My recent involvement in this thread was not to discuss prior death tolls under different economic regimes... or Trump... or tax cuts, or whatever other bullshit diversion you're trying to employ.
It was purely to call YOU out. I really don't give a shit what retarded ideology you prescribe to, but don't expect everyone to just sit back when you're sending endless updates calling for a "barbaric" uprising.

Geoff wrote: "David's anger is entirely justified - it's infuriating talking to people (mostly on the right) who are completely fine with turning a blind eye to kidnapping and forced labor of children in mines, ..."

Except I don't turn a blind eye. Human (especially child) trafficking is by far my number one philanthropic cause. You see, I don't just hoard my "precious first editions" as David loves to point out.

I don't think David was calling for a "barbaric" uprising - he was saying the alternative to socialism is a future of capitalist barbarism. But I don't want to put words in his mouth.

And good for you, Nick, that's a cause in need of great attention and action.

Geoff wrote: "I don't think David was calling for a "barbaric" uprising - he was saying the alternative to socialism is a future of capitalist barbarism. But I don't want to put words in his mouth."

If that was his intent, then it was poorly stated... but I got tired of all the veiled (some not so veiled) calls for violence he puts out. At the end of the day, I don't care what his ideology is or what the hell he reads... but I do care about someone inciting/proposing violence for a political/ideological purpose.

Geoff wrote: "And good for you, Nick, that's a cause in need of great attention and action."

Yes, it is. An epidemic that I agree most turn a blind eye to or flat out don't know how bad it is (especially in our own country).

I have a friend who is a lawyer specializing in saving women who have been trafficked in the US - she does crazy, intense, great work. I was also directly involved in helping a woman who had been trafficked from Romania, but that is a long, long story.

Geoff wrote: "I don't think David was calling for a "barbaric" uprising - he was saying the alternative to socialism is a future of capitalist barbarism. But I don't want to put words in his mouth."

'Retarded ideology' - jesus christ, man. Well, guess what, I think reading Ayn Rand is gay as shit.

(that seems to be about the level at which you're capable of engaging with ideas)

I said 'socialism or barbarism', not 'socialism and barbarism' ; after reading all of Bottom's Dream, you have still failed to master the conjunction.

David wrote: "I said 'socialism or barbarism', not 'socialism and barbarism' ; after reading all of Bottom's Dream, you have still failed to master the conjunction. "

Funny thing about conjunctions...

When you say:
Capitalism is doomed. Socialism or barbarism, now more than ever. "

It is logical to assume you're proposing EITHER socialism OR barbarism... especially given the context of nearly ALL of your prior posts on the subject.

If you wanted to equate capitalism with barbarism, then you need to work on sentence structure.

Your petty attacks humor me by the way. First editions... Bottoms Dream. They must feel so good to get off your chest!

Nick wrote: "It is logical to assume you're proposing EITHER socialism OR barbarism... especially given the context of nearly ALL of your prior posts on the subject."

Right. That's not the same as calling for a barbaric uprising. I'm saying the current system is failing and we need to build an alternative; if the alternative isn't socialism, it's going to be barbarism.

David wrote: "Right. That's not the same as calling for a barbaric uprising. I'm saying the current system is failing and we need to build an alternative; if the alternative isn't socialism, it's going to be barbarism. "

I'm glad you're clarifying, because you can certainly read it the way I did. And I know Cody read it that way as well.

Nick wrote: "Your petty attacks humor me by the way. First editions... Bottoms Dream. They must feel so good to get off your chest!"

If my petty attacks humor you, it's clear my citations and arguments leave you cold. You simply ignore them. So there's no getting through to you.

Look, bro, I always cite my sources. You should feel free to do the same.

David wrote: "Nick wrote: "It is logical to assume you're proposing EITHER socialism OR barbarism... especially given the context of nearly ALL of your prior posts on the subject."

Right. That's not the same as..."

It seemed to be the word 'communism' that set Cody off; we had an exchange about it above that you apparently ignored.

David wrote: "If my petty attacks humor you, it's clear my citations and arguments leave you cold. You simply ignore them. So there's no getting through to you."

What am I supposed to refute exactly? I wasn't in here to dispute x people died under y or z economies.

Cody was frustrated you dodged his arguments/questions. I don't personally care to partake in them. I think it's pretty obvious neither you nor I are going to change our minds about economic ideals.

Er, possibly Cody and I were dodging each other's arguments.

In my opinion, it's a dodge to respond with 'what about Stalin!' to any critique of capitalism.

I take his point that the history of really existing communism has been incredibly brutal (indeed, I thought I acknowledged as much immediately).

Perhaps it was flippant of me to say that communism may still save the world. It was meant as an endorsement of Melenchon, whose surge in the polls I take as a very hopeful sign. The EU is failing badly; it would be great if a leftist leader could harness this populist discontent, rather than leaving it to a right-wing goon like Le Pen to exploit.

David wrote: "Er, possibly Cody and I were dodging each other's arguments.

In my opinion, it's a dodge to respond with 'what about Stalin!' to any critique of capitalism.

I take his point that the history of ..."

David,
Have you seen Adam Curtis's film "HyperNormalisation" from last year? He has some theories towards the end on why, in this age of populist upheaval (even in the US when the left had a movement in the Occupy folks), the left seems to be constantly losing ground when you'd think they'd be able to seize power with the supposed democratizing force of the internet. It's a compelling thesis about hegemony and the left's rejection of hierarchy (also about the failure to realize the effect of echo-chamber and the voicelessness of the "democratized" internet, how corporations were the ones winning in the left's online war against Trump).

Anyway, probably one of the most important films, I think, out of this whole mess.

(IN WHICH I DISCLOSE WAAAAAY TOO MUCH ABOUT MYSELF)

Alright guys,

This is where I lay my cards on the table and, I think, walk away from the game. I got 4 hours sleep last night because of this thread, and am literally shaking as a result. As some of you know, I was not well for quite some time (and some of you know why). My mental fragility hangs by an already precious thread; playing with that to argue ideologies is not worth the way I feel today. Tomorrow is my daughter's 4th birthday and I have to try to negotiate the nightmare that is Disneyland. The last thing I need to do is lose another night's precious, restorative sleep going round and round with you all here. It isn't worth shit compared to whatever happiness I can filch from my poisoned brain to give my daughter the simplest of pleasures.

I no longer feel the need to spit into the center of this circle jerk to keep the ideological stroking of the shaft going. There is a pernicious tendency here to attack cruelly what is perceived as even the slightest dissenting thought. I am likely aligned to the 90th-percentile with most of you, but even a whiff of me betraying otherwise brings out the worst tendencies in you all. Not one of you isn't vaunting your ideals from behind the luxury of distance (at least in relative terms to the injustices that are talking points here, i.e. Bengali Famine, institutional racism, etc.) I know that I am, but I also know about the realities of my own life. David and Geoff, you presume that you know about the "criminal class," "Black prison population," and "opioid addicted" as if you were alone. I have been to jail, as have many of my friends who have served substantial sentences. My brother is a lifelong speed freak who will likely die before 50. My first cousins are Black and live in Minneapolis and deal with a whole lot more shit than any of us do. One of them was killed by the police after an altercation stemming from drinking on the stoop. The majority of my beloved relatives (White, Mexican, and Black) are hopelessly caught in a cycle of poverty they never hope to escape. I am hopelessly dependent upon medical chemicals to stave off actual insanity. Need I go on?

So here's where I get shit off my chest:

David: you're young and idealistic. Try to stay both forever. You're also whip-smart. I have no idea if you advocate violent insurrection, but for your sake I hope you don't. You're a 113lb. gay White kid with glasses; you'd be the first against the wall.

Geoff: we're cool as shit. You have fantastic taste in music. You have a tendency to blow your lid and then calm down. I get it. Keep up the good fight.

Jibran: you're very bright, well-informed, and often open to differing perspectives (or at least try to be). But you've been reading As I Lay Dying since January and shit on its patois. Maybe more reading and less fire-stoking? Faulkner's the shit.

Nick: our friendship is proof that differing ideologies need not intercede when two people find human commonalities more important than political affiliation. But, yeah, reading Ayn Rand is gay as shit.

Manny: your levity here has often been appreciated. But like the famous bumper sticker says: "Sweden--Who Gives A Shit?" (joking)

Which just leaves one more thing...

There has been a lot of talk about dismantling the current political/military/infrastructural state of America. I hope you honestly assess the realities of what that would entail before taking any action. I realized something a long time ago: were the shit to hit the fan, it would come down to the haves v. the have-nots. What that means in a state of martial law is who is armed and who is not. Not money, not station, and certainly not what books one has read. In accordance, I have long amassed a cache of weapons to protect myself and my family from an oppressive government or violent individual if need be. I have never killed another living being, human or animal. I have been a moral vegetarian for 26-years, and am vehemently against the death penalty. But I am also a realist. If it comes down to the proverbial 'you' versus 'me' or my family, I know where my line in the sand is drawn: I'd mow every fucking one of you down without batting an eyelash. And there are millions more like me, people who realize that the only change they're going to affect is in the small tribe of loved ones they surround themselves with. All of your soapbox gesticulating will not amount to a pile of ash at the end of the day, nor will mine. We will be crushed, or do the crushing (speaking in terms of intra-national affairs). So, friends, I implore you: PLEASE reflect on what levels of depravity you are willing to stoop to in the vacuum created by a toppled infrastructure. Unless you are willing to go all the fucking way, better to stop before you get started. And remember that even the meek, like myself, will have the business end of an AR-15 trained on you. I hope beyond hope this day never comes to pass. Not for you, but for my kid (and yours). The dog has been fucked; you will have to continue to kick its corpse and assign blame without my participation, fellow travelers.

I wish you all the best of luck, and hope we make it out alive.

Cody

Geoff wrote: "The entire concept of a "failed state" is only conceivable in a world where capitalism sets the terms and is the determining agent."

No. States fail for a variety of reasons, corruption, ethnic nationalism, historical hatreds, and scarcity being some of the prime culprits. None of these are unique to either end of the supposed left-right spectrum.

Cody, I'm actually 6'4" and 200 lbs...

Otherwise, I know. It sucks. Happy birthday to your lovely daughter.

Cody, I agree, all of us need to relax a bit. But such is the nature of politics, always have been, it gets the better of best people.

Anyway, this thread is a place to vent, or so I think. Nothing any of us say is going to topple anything (and being an outsider I know where to stop when American friends discuss their country's internal problems). No ill will against anyone, no harm done.

My best wishes for you and happy birthday to your daughter!

Ian wrote: "David wrote: "Er, possibly Cody and I were dodging each other's arguments.

In my opinion, it's a dodge to respond with 'what about Stalin!' to any critique of capitalism.

I take his point that t..."


I've never actually made it through the whole film. Primo late night youtube viewing, with a billion other tabs open.

I think the great social theorist Wolfgang Streeck does a similar thing with mapping the life-world of neoliberalism. Highly recommended, How Will Capitalism End?: Essays on a Failing System

Cody, that was pretty fucking amazing. Thanks man. (I'm reviewing the masters of my new album, or I'd respond more in-depth, so look for it in the next day or so - I too am trying to drain the last ounce of beauty I can find out of this shithole world in the only way I know how...) Good luck at Disneyworld. All things Disney give me the fucking creeps, so God be with you. Anyway, I don't think this thread is going to stumble onto any solutions for the eternal ills and blights of the world, but maybe we can vent into the void for a bit, and recover something of ourselves and something of each other out there too, through words.

Zadignose wrote: "Geoff wrote: "The entire concept of a "failed state" is only conceivable in a world where capitalism sets the terms and is the determining agent."

No. States fail for a variety of reasons, corrupt..."

Honestly I didn't think that through too much when I posted it. Sorry, I had pan con chicharron on my mind.

Geoff-Jibran-David,

Thank you all for your kind words. My 'mornings' are not easy, and this one was especially difficult. I hope I didn't come across as a pedant; it's a quality I thoroughly despise. As far as "mowing you all down," I hope you would do the same to me. I'd expect nothing less than no quarter were I posing a threat to you and yours.

The lingering specter of Disneyland has me shit-scared, so I'm sure that played a part in my splenetic venting. Deep breaths. Benzodiazepines. Deep breaths.

xo,

Cody

PS: Congratulations, David, on your impressive physique! (You know that only makes for a bigger target, right?)

You are not the only one that is shit-scared. I had to almost stop watching the news, and as for my Facebook, I only look at nature photos now. I have almost come unglued several times before this. I find PBS News Hour to be easier to watch.

But your great post here made me want to look at your reviews, which I found to be also brilliant. Thanks for the friendship.

Jessaka wrote: "You are not the only one that is shit-scared. I had to almost stop watching the news, and as for my Facebook, I only look at nature photos now. I have almost come unglued several times before this...."

Jessaka,

And I thank you for yours. I've entirely eliminated TV as well, except for, oddly, fishing shows. Reminds me of growing up.

Cody

And in the spirit of brotherhood-sisterhood, everybody sing along if you know it:

No one likes us
I don't know why
We may not be perfect
But heaven knows we try
But all around
Even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one
And see what happens

We give them money
But are they grateful
No, they're spiteful
And they're hateful
They don't respect us
So let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one
And pulverize them

Asia's crowded
And Europe's too old
Africa's far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't want to hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an all American amusement park there
They've got surfing, too

Boom goes London
And boom Paris
More room for you
And more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it'll be
We'll set everybody free
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby
There'll be Italian shoes for me
They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now