Geoff > Status Update

(I've drunk)

I think Streeck sort of ends up agreeing with his compatriot Heidegger... waiting on a god

All I can say is, it's a luxury to be able to look down on Budweiser rather than look up to it. Drink Hite for a while and you'll be hankering for the King of Beers. Though Hite imitators "Flite" and "Hi-5" are even more horrifying... near-beers that taste like asparagus.

howl of minerva wrote: "While there is a BeyHive, I am in it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free."

That might be the best comment of this young year right there.

This morning from Mr Grumpypants on his toilet break (I am sorry but I remain convinced that these tweets are sent when he is sat on the crapper):

"Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election. Sorry, people want border security and extreme vetting."

and

" I call my own shots, largely based on an accumulation of data, and everyone knows it. Some FAKE NEWS media, in order to marginalize, lies!

re the second one, clearly the reports about Bannon's power are getting under his skin!

re the first, well...my 5 year old deals with criticism better than the President of the United States of America.

So, the 19%, his cult, they will see those tweets and get all riled up about the plague of fake commie news trying to take down the Trump/Bannon Empire of Tellin It Like It Is Truth Squad Patrol - but pretty much the rest of the world knows this is utter childish nonsense, and moreover just embarrassing for adults, not to mention presidents, to be acting like this. The point being - this can't be effective, right?

But yeah, the second one is clearly about letting the world know his wee-wee is bigger than Bannon's

Geoff wrote: "The point being - this can't be effective, right? ..."

I think in the long run, no. His weak points are out in the open, which is very poor negotiating from someone supposedly "the greatest negotiator in the world". He looks pathetic.

I think our tactic should be to keep going on about how Bannon is the real power - this should annoy Trump enough that he will have to fire him, just to prove he da man.

Jonathan wrote: "This morning from Mr Grumpypants on his toilet break (I am sorry but I remain convinced that these tweets are sent when he is sat on the crapper):

"Any negative polls are fake news, just like the..."

and she doubtless has much less to be criticized for. Oops, maybe that means if the Donald were criticized less he would handle it better. I doubt it though, he would just have less occasion to notice it. What he did notice would still produce rage, IMHO.

Jonathan wrote: "Geoff wrote: "The point being - this can't be effective, right? ..."

I think in the long run, no. His weak points are out in the open, which is very poor negotiating from someone supposedly "the g..."

Which one will get rid of the other first?

Ted wrote: "Which one will get rid of the other first?"
Now that's an interesting idea. Bannon has actually said he sees himself as Trump's Thomas Cromwell...

Jonathan wrote: "His weak points are out in the open, which is very poor negotiating from someone supposedly "the greatest negotiator in the world". He looks pathetic. "
Hmmm. The thing is, he's making the running, he's setting the agenda - everyone has to respond to him, and that could wear down the opposition and make those who are wavering about being on Trump's side get sick of protest, and therefore side more with him.
(Thanks to both Scott Adams of Dilbert fame, and J.M. Greer of the Archdruid Report for that idea - so not mine originally, but as soon as I saw it, I thought, yeah, all the headlines are about what people are doing about Trump, he's pushing everyone and they have to react to him, no time to do much else.)

I reckon someone big in the Democrats needs to start making their own agenda and pushing him on other issues: e.g. what the hell he's doing about jobs and to improve healthcare for poorer Americans.

Antonomasia wrote: "and make those who are wavering about being on Trump's side get sick of protest, and therefore side more with him.."

I really don't understand this reasoning. We should stop protesting Rump ; we're just pushing reasonable people into his clutches (?!). Of course we should be pushing our own agenda ; but one big piece of that agenda is protecting what we've already won. If anything, the protests need to be bigger so people (and especially dem politicos) will get the message that there is a real live politically realistic alternative to what Rump is doing to the country. [and too but of course Rump is setting the agenda ; he holds the most powerful position in the history of the world]

We should stop protesting Rump ; we're just pushing reasonable people into his clutches (?!).

I didn't say that people shouldn't protest just because that might happen. (although TBH I've never had much time for demonstrations and marches as opposed to community work and practical stuff.)

The only one I can think of that seems to have achieved anything in recent times in a Global North (ish) country was the abortion protests in Poland.

The protests need to be larger and more frequent, and need to not dwindle over time (though that is practically inevitable) ... For instance I and the significant other are going to do all the science/climate marches, as her career is literally at stake. Uh and the future of the world. Since I'm in DC, I will pretty much be showing up to as many protests as feasible.

Hell, I might go spit on his Trump hotel on Penn Ave. right now. It's just two blocks over.

Geoff wrote: "Hell, I might go spit on his Trump hotel on Penn Ave. right now. It's just two blocks over."

Do you think if you did that that it'd result in his impeachment?

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Geoff wrote: "Hell, I might go spit on his Trump hotel on Penn Ave. right now. It's just two blocks over."

Do you think if you did that that it'd result in his impeachment?"

I mean, if you believe in the multiverse theory, there's gotta be one of the infinite universes out there where it could result in his impeachment - and there's no telling if this is that one or not.

Geoff wrote: "Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Geoff wrote: "Hell, I might go spit on his Trump hotel on Penn Ave. right now. It's just two blocks over."

Do you think if you did that that it'd result in his impeachment?"
..."

Only works if you can get your spit to fly like this:

Ian wrote: "Only works if you can get your spit to fly like this:
"

Interestingly enough, I've been working on getting my spit to do this for months now. Crazy coincidence you happen to bring it up here.

John Bercow! Crazy name, crazy guy! (to quote Private Eye's long-running columnist Glenda Slagg...)

Geoff wrote: "Interestingly enough, I've been working on getting my spit to do this for months now."

For handy tips on technique, check out Jim Knopf und Lukas der Lokomotivführer .

Manny wrote: "For handy tips on technique, check out Jim Knopf und Lukas der Lokomotivführer"

I have no idea what this is or how that might help, but I am intrigued.

Apparently Trump just said the media is conspiring to cover up terrorist attacks

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-cla...

oh and also that thing about negative polls being "fake news" but it's so hard to keep up, he said that yesterday and it seems like really old news

Sometimes I can't help but actually like Trump. Isn't this the fairest analysis of US foreign policy from an American president in quite a while?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/v...

Ha, yeah - my favorite line of his was maybe when he said "I love the poorly educated"

"I don't know of any government leaders who are killers" - Bill O'Reilly; oh bullshit

howl of minerva wrote: "Sometimes I can't help but actually like Trump. Isn't this the fairest analysis of US foreign policy from an American president in quite a while?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/v......"

The Swedish proverb is Ur barn och dårars mun skall man höra sanningen. "You'll hear the truth from children and crazy people".

Is US-Russian rapprochement a bad thing for the world? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know.

Yeah, the "U.S. isn't so innocent" thing is hard to disagree with...

@howl, depends what they gonna do with it. Make war on China? Let Russia invade the Baltics and Ukraine? Squeeze the liberal / social democratic values associated with the EU?

howl of minerva wrote: "Is US-Russian rapprochement a bad thing for the world? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know."

Other things being equal, clearly it is good, but I would say it does rather depend on the way it's done. For example (this is purely hypothetical, note), I don't think it would be good for the world if the close relationship between the US and Russian leaders caused the leader of one country to stage a major terrorist incident so that the leader of the other country could implement a controversial piece of policy.

Obviously that was only intended as a reductio ad absurdum. But it shows that it wouldn't always be a positive thing.

Antonomasia, I assume all your scenarios were purely hypothetical too?

Trump is sort of an idiot savant - maybe 95% idiot, but the savant part is still there ; amid all the garbage he spits out there are weird pearls of truth;

the only thing is, he also lacks any integrity or consistency whatsoever; in that interview howl posted, he also claims he was opposed to the Iraq war from the beginning, which isn't actually true

so I don't take him very seriously when he claims he wants to pursue detente with Russia

***1848 - Communist Manifesto is published - hells yeah!

I'd have used "speculative" rather than "hypothetical", but that's splitting hairs; they're all based on ideas I've heard in articles at some point in the last few months. The ganging up on China one was the most so - I've read a few bits and pieces speculating about war in the South China Sea, but don't think any of them mentioned Russia as a potential ally of either party.

@David / 1848 - and the year of several revolutions in Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolut...

(apols if knew of these already)

one of the great revolutionary years in history... 2017? perhaps we're coming up on another one?

Antonomasia wrote: "I'd have used "speculative" rather than "hypothetical", but that's splitting hairs; they're all based on ideas I've heard in articles at some point in the last few months. The ganging up on China o..."

Basically, it seems to me that the question of whether rapprochement between the US and Russia is good or not depends on the terms. If it makes Russia more like a free democracy, it's good. If it leaves both countries roughly unchanged, it still seems pretty clearly good. If it makes the US into a Russian-style kleptocracy, it's very bad.

Until recently, I wouldn't have paid much attention to the third scenario.

You guys are FAR more intellectual, mentally facile and well-read to grok the business major Trump. I am from and I now live among the lower classes and the underclass who voted Trump into office, and I accurately predicted he'd win because I listened to my under-educated Fox News elders and conservative relatives and my frustrated young Sanders-supporting boy cousins who hated Hillary. Many of them cannot tell the difference between fake news and honest reporting. Most of them were distracted or eagerly grasped the ideas behind not having good wages and benefits because of the non-Christian non-English speaking non-white races taking their jobs for minimum pay.

I also say now Trump is trying to start a skirmishing or war (Iran or China by poking them with taunts and threats, Russia by giving Putin Potemkin support to go and reclaim eastern European states) in order to win a second term in office. It is what happened with Bush W. Almost everybody was quickly figuring out by W's second year he was too stupid to re-elect for a second term. The 9/11 attack is what got Bush W. re-elected, not love or respect.

Trump is NOT an intellectual who reads the Great philosophers or 18th-century political tract conversations, nor does he sprinkle his conversation with quotes from revered Great Thinkers from books the ancient Greeks or Romans left behind. He considers himself an under-rated genius, scorned by the intelligentsia. His number one determination is revenge on pointy-headed professors like Obama. I think he decided to run for President after the journalists' roast, and I think he hated the Obamas not because of their race, but because of their class - the intelligensia.

Poor ignorant non-reading underclasses and lower classes are most jealous of the supposed and actual joys of the moneyed and educated upper-classes because of their money and education, and they want their share of it, enjoying more often the sensual delights of drunkenness and video games and blood sport gambling and sex with beautiful bimbos (either gender). It is not because of learning the joys of lofty memorized quotes from famous Great Books or fun clever repartee.

I certainly haven't heard a single college-educated talking head discuss in depth or repetitively mention the real necessity of White American Males to go back to school and study math and science if they truly want to get back to work. There is a Realpolitic reason the tech companies are hiring educated smart foreigners to work for them, and why they pass on the native undereducated whites of America.

You fellows are obviously in love with being intellectualized and educated, and are enjoying yourselves trying to upstage each other with smart comments (I wanted this smartness myself at one time, so I embarked on a self-taught GreatBooks education with the help of a friendly librarian), but to understand That Asshole Phucker's appeal and why he won, you have to go to a place more academically stupid and emotionally primitive - it is all about primeval caveman jealousy, revenge, and a desire for goodies and the battle for goodies (the winning fight over the enemy being as important as the spoils) - the temporary high feelings and satisfactions of alcohol drugs blood sports and sex place in the brain, which is what rules the less-educated. I know how this sounds, but it is the truth of undereducated white males. I was raised by a man with a sixth-grade education surrounded by men who worked in factories, warehouses, manufacturing plants, who beat their wives and kids after coming home from work, having spent their paychecks on beer and bets. American men are a little bit more educated today, but most of them still cater to the same primitive drives of lazy easy pleasures over studious long-term planning or rewards. Studying math or science for years is not what the average man will do, even to save his life.

Trump is selling a primitive class war to the male masses, not hard work or reading or studying for a degree. He also is looking for real war with a country, any country willing to be taunted into doing battle with us. He fears not being re-elected since he knows his kleptocracy will be exposed even to his supporters in time.

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "You guys are FAR more intellectual, mentally facile and well-read to grok the business major Trump. I am from and I now live among the lower classes and the underclass who voted Trump into office, ..."

Thank you April, I totally agree with you. Sorry if the tone of my comments seems wrong for discussing Trump, but hey, this is Geoff's thread.

Kind of. Have bad luck with your health, maybe fuckup with money a bit, or never had much in the first place, and you may well feel closer to the "left behinds" and their resentment than to highly paid professionals and politicos who were in your year at university. The difference might be, though, where you turn that politically - e.g. Sanders rather than Trump.

Antonomasia wrote: "Kind of. Have bad luck with your health, maybe fuckup with money a bit, or never had much in the first place, and you may well feel closer to the "left behinds" and their resentment than to highly ..."

Agreed. Reading books just makes you someone who reads books. It doesn't determine your class position in society; it doesn't even indicate your level of formal education.

I, uh, am going to refrain from publicly sharing my annual income, the things I've done for money, the kind of society I associate with in life, but ... I'll just say I don't think my case particularly conforms to April's notions.

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I certainly haven't heard a single college-educated talking head discuss in depth or repetitively mention the real necessity of White American Males to go back to school and study math and science if they truly want to get back to work. "

Just to authenticate myself here ;; just the other night I ran into a buddy of mine at a metal show. He fronts one of my fav local black metal bands. Dude's in school right now, majoring in bio=chem or some shit that's way beyond me (we agreed that the calculus was way beyond us both.) He used to drive a forklift. He's the kind of white working class dude everyone talks about. Getting himself edumacated. And loving the books.

His band is playing this Friday ; so if you're in town, why don't y'all come out. It'll be epic!

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Just to authenticate myself here"

oh, and not that it matters ;; but I'm one of those white working class males too.

Geoff wrote: "...I mean, if you believe in the multiverse theory, there's gotta be one of the infinite universes out there where it could result in his impeachment..."

Then, if you believe in the multiverse theory, there must be at least one universe in which the multiverse theory is false, and there must be at least one in which our universe isn't in the multiverse, and thus the theory collapses upon itself, and I win.

Give me a dollar.

Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Just to authenticate myself here"

oh, and not that it matters ;; but I'm one of those white working class males too."

Yup, there's really no telling the humiliations a person goes through to pay their rent; literary allusions or elevated diction is hardly any indicator of being in the 1%

I, and a great deal of people I know, are working class cooks. We work with quite a lot of undocumented immigrants. Guess which side we're on?

I think there is more radical class consciousness turned against capitalism/the state (not to even begin with Trump) than the narrative of "working class white males" leads on. Poor badly educated people can still be compassionate and still know who the real enemy is. They are not all easily misled by demagogues.

April said; "You guys are FAR more intellectual, mentally facile and well-read to grok the business major Trump."

You sell yourself short April. Your take on the matter is highly competent; and coincidentally substantially my own.

But, I think that we are talking about two different matters, which all too often get confused in the repartee. What you've eloquently addressed is; "What factors lead to Trump's popularity?" When the thread gets a bit serious, the other thing being discussed is "What is the proper philosophy amd/or morality for a US President, US voters, and the nation as a whole?

I don't suspect that much agreement will be reached on either question; but at the very least it should be easily recognized by anyone with half a brain which issue is being discussed.

Beyond that it's very easy for one to form a point of view based only on one's own experiences, or the lack thereof, which is "validated" through the similar points of view in one's immediate vicinity. Some do it with cynicism, while others do it intending sincerity. Sam Shepherd covered this well in "True West."

I fully agree that the white working class or lower middle class does not get any consideration or respect. This has been written of numerous times both in the US and UK. But, they are no one's political darling and they bought Trump's rhetoric, maybe out of not having any other choice. To complicate this I knew a couple; he a priviliged college professor and she an educated starter in the working class. Their biggest argument was that he thought more should be done for the working classes and she called them the scum of the earth.

I also agree that Obama is a pointy head; but that's not a dismissal. That he was totally inconsequential for eight years is. Now someone with an axe to grind will call me a racist; to which I'll be ignored in saying; "No, I'm a competent-ist."

Trump has pushed a lot of buttons; liberals, ones who stand for equality, ones who don't want war, ones fearful of democracy's end, women, etc. etc. etc. His legacy remains to be seen. But one thing seems certain; it won't be business as usual and if legally permitted US borders will not be open to just anyone who wants to enter. NEWSFLASH. This is nothing new for a nation which always had immigration quotas and requirements.

The thing I find most funny here is that we furiously debate as if these GR posts had any effect on the outcome. They do not.

Larry wrote: "...The thing I find most funny here is that we furiously debate as if these GR posts had any effect on the outcome. They do not."

This opposes all intellectual pursuit. Metaphysicians AND physicists also fail to have any effect on outcomes through their struggles to understand. Should we, then, not attempt understanding, nor publish what we learn?

Larry wrote: "The thing I find most funny here is that we furiously debate as if these GR posts had any effect on the outcome. They do not. "

I've found this thread to be hellishly important.