Reading with Style discussion
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Fall 2012 General Questions & Answers
thanks, I submitted the request. The whole Acorna series and Acorna's Children series is not even on the lexile score list. I also read another YA book that wasn't on the list. That was a library book so I don't have it with me anymore.
Jayme - I've looked at BPL for Acorna's Children, and these books are not shelved as YA. So, you can certainly include this one with style points.
GR has it shelved as YA. Ok that's cool because I can pick up some extra points. Thanks Elizabeth.
Jayme(the ghost reader) wrote: "GR has it shelved as YA. Ok that's cool because I can pick up some extra points. Thanks Elizabeth."We only use the BPL designation.
I need suggestions for Square Peg. I get hung up with the Veteran's Task, the Betchel test, the Octoberfest, and to be continued task. It's hard to find a book that exempts all four of these tasks.
Rebekah wrote: "I need suggestions for Square Peg. I get hung up with the Veteran's Task, the Betchel test, the Octoberfest, and to be continued task. It's hard to find a book that exempts all four of these tasks."Thru posts 744, those that have been claimed for Square Peg are:
20
119
172
221
422
451
521
538
690
I'm looking at reading The First Family: Terror, Extortion, Revenge, Murder, and the Birth of the American Mafia by Mike Dash for Square Peg.I think he's a UK author, it was published in 2009, it's nonfiction so the Bechdel won't be a problem, and I don't think he's a veteran author. Anyone else see somewhere that it fits?
10.1 Square PegCanvey Island by James Runcie
A Dangerous Inheritance by Alison Weir
Kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson
The Snowman by Jo Nesbø
Revolution 1989: The Fall of the Soviet Empire by Victor Sebestyen
Most Underappreciated: 50 Prominent Social Psychologists Describe Their Most Unloved Work
The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo by Stieg Larsson
I and II Samuel by David F. Payne
Rebekah wrote: "What about Daniel Defoe"You might be alright with Moll Flanders, if she doesn't go talking to other women too much :)
Art Garfunkel has read Robinson Crusoe, Journal of the Plague Year, A Tour through Great Britain, Jonathan Wild ... but not Moll Flanders as far as I can see.
Oh poo! Moll Flanders is the only one of his I have read! What about Daniel Deronda? Maybe I can do the an Alison Weir book. I didn't realize she wouldn't fit 2o.8.
I was planning on Heart's Blood by Juliet Marillier as it doesn't seem to fit any of the tasks from what I can tell ^_^
Rebekah wrote: "Oh poo! Moll Flanders is the only one of his I have read! What about Daniel Deronda? Maybe I can do the an Alison Weir book. I didn't realize she wouldn't fit 2o.8."George Eliot fits 20.8, so no to Daniel Deronda.
Liz M wrote: "And Daniel Defoe also fits 20.8"Oops so he does! I was only looking at his novels.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Rebekah wrote: "I need suggestions for Square Peg. I get hung up with the Veteran's Task, the Betchel test, the Octoberfest, and to be continued task. It's hard to find a book that exempts all four..."Thanks, Elizabeth! Those are the ones Liz listed. Except for the NF specific subject ones, I have read them all. In fact I used Kidnapped for Square Peg in another challenge. I'll keep looking.
Ok I think I have found one!I saw one of RL Stevenson's books worked but it was one I had already read, but how about another of his books? The Master Of Ballantrae was pub in 1889, 4 words in title, 6letters in Robert and he was born in UK. I didn't see it on the Garfunkel list, no color, main character is under60, is NF, not about elected office but about the Jacobean wars, no imaginary scary monsters, not part of a series, not a group read, not on rural or gothic list in top150, no lgbt, not in a lab, does not pass betchel test, RLS did not pub over 20 yrs, did not commit suicide .
So can I use it? please?
Rebekah wrote: "Ok I think I have found one!I saw one of RL Stevenson's books worked but it was one I had already read, but how about another of his books? The Master Of Ballantrae was pub in 1889, 4 words in tit..."
Mods, I just want to check that I did miss anything and this book qualifies, please. Thanks!
It looks good to me, Rebekah.
About BPL Catalog:When I went to plan for the Winter Challenge, I noticed a big change in the way books came up in the catalog, at least on my iPad. It's now more like my local library catalog. Before, you could see a complete list of all the titles and formats and what their listings were on the opening page so you would see easily that a book was YA or YA Assignment. It doesn't work that way anymore so you have to open each item to see the listing. This is probably what happened to Christine and it is why I just asked about A Christmas Carol. I guess this problem will be avoided if our 15 point itineraries are approved in advance, but also I wonder if a book that is considered a classic whether on the canon or not or YA assignment or not should just be ok. As always, I'm just trying to weigh in on what might be a problem that causes some not to have fun with the challenge in a way that still respects the idea of sticking to worthy reading. (If you don't know me, I'm a high school librarian and champion of YA books. Many are written with lots more sophistication than George RR Martin, for example).
Karen, perhaps that is an iPad issue. I just checked it for a book I am currently reading which is shelved as TEEN in my local library (The Scorpio Races) and got a list of all the branch library selections as before.
Bea wrote: "Karen, perhaps that is an iPad issue. I just checked it for a book I am currently reading which is shelved as TEEN in my local library (The Scorpio Races) and got a list of all the branch library ..."It well could be. I haven't tried it in a while on my computer at work. I will today, thanks!
Karen, that is not the way BPL appears on my desktop that I use to enter books in the scorekeeping program.ETA: I should clarify that electronic editions and video are separate from books, and continue to be so. I always use a book entry, not even large print, when I check for YA status. When the library circulates multiple ISBNs of a book, they will have separate listings. I usually choose the first such listing. That said, it is important to look around and do the research.
Christine wrote: "It's just demoralizing, ... Didn't realize I had to open each and every listing to make sure not a single one of them listed it as YA."Christine, I felt so bad when I saw this happen to you a few days ago that I submitted a Lexile request for The Magnificent Ambersons. I know it probably won't get done in time to help you, and that you have already moved the book to the main challenge. I had downloaded the book from Project Gutenberg a few months ago, read part of it and skimmed more of it. Surely it will be given an impressive Lexile when they get to it. And as you mentioned, it was good of Elizabeth to help salvage a few points for you anyway.
I might not try to do the 1.5 tasks in the future.
I am not doing ABC's this time and don't plan to do LLL in the Winter challenge. I don't want to risk overlooking one of the BPL listings, and then finding out that my whole plan has been ruined. I've been amazed at some of the titles that have turned out to be YA, and I've been amazed at some of the Lexile ratings too. The YA designations and Lexile ratings appear highly unpredictable to me. I really wanted to do LLL with the city of Pittsburgh. LLL is a neat idea. But between the risk of missing a YA designation, and the risk of getting far into a book and finding out that too much of it takes place away from Pittsburgh, I decided to forget it. I'm just going to concentrate on finding books and points for the main challenge.
Most importantly, I don't intend any of these comments as a criticism of the system or the moderators. I understand the need for black and white rules that don't require judgement calls. And I do thank the moderators for the countless hours they give for no compensation to keep this fantastic group going. I have no bright ideas to improve the system. I just wanted to express some sympathy for Christine, and explain why I am avoiding the sub-challenge for now.
The classics are quite often used in classrooms for teaching, so that they are more likely to turn up YA than others. It's why we chose to ignore YA designations for those books on Bloom's canon. And remember, just because it is YA, doesn't mean it won't be allowed in the sub-challenge, and that all YA are allowed in the RwS 10-and 20-point tasks, with restrictions. If you wish, you can always ask one of us to double check a title about which you have a nagging feeling.
Christine wrote: "Bea wrote: "Karen, perhaps that is an iPad issue. I just checked it for a book I am currently reading which is shelved as TEEN in my local library (The Scorpio Races) and got a list of all the bra..."I looked at the catalog again at work and although there are still a lot of versions of a book like Dickens A Christmas Carol, it looks like there has been a bit of a change if you just search by keyword. It looks like it's important to specify a "title" or "author" search to get a more compact list that doesn't have pictures and then click on the book and the whole list opens as usual. One thing I do is regularly check Lexiles instead of BPL and try to stick to 800 Lexiles for all of my books that are classics (because if a teacher in Brooklyn assigns the book to a class to read it will be YA assignment, so literally any book a teacher chooses could be assigned to that category - at my school that would include The Kite Runner, for example, and it has an 840 Lexile.). I don't check popular current literature that I know is adult and would be unlikely to be taught, but I do quick Lexile checks on just about everything else.
I consider that there are only 2 listings because the electronic versions, videorecordings and complete works are not applicable. You never have to click those. I usually use keyword, but sometimes there are too many listings and not for the specific title, at which time I use either the title or author search.
Christine wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I consider that there are only 2 listings because the electronic versions, videorecordings and complete works are not applicable. You never have to click those. I usually..."ebooks definitely count - it's that BPL never lists those editions as YA. We are interested in titles, not editions, and an ebook/video, etc., is just a different edition of a book.
I think the BPL designations are telling its users where they can locate a book, so the designations are actual locations within the physical buildings. Ebooks are in the ether. That's why they don't get the YA designation.
Christine wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "it's that BPL never lists those editions as YA. "Had no idea about this."
You're new enough, you probably also don't know that last Spring we changed from keeping score in a spreadsheet to using a custom program using a database as it's underlying platform. The books that you read for this challenge are entered in a separate table with the information available to us in succeeding challenges so that we don't have to keep on looking up the same information over and over. My part of the "job" is to enter those books in the database, and do the research for the information we retain. Thus, I've learned a lot about BPL.
I'm getting excited for the 10 and 20 point tasks! Any hints;)?
Karen GHHS wrote: "I'm getting excited for the 10 and 20 point tasks! Any hints;)?"I'm sorry, we're a bit behind in getting them together. No hints, but hopefully you can see something in print this weekend.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karen GHHS wrote: "I'm getting excited for the 10 and 20 point tasks! Any hints;)?"I'm sorry, we're a bit behind in getting them together. No hints, but hopefully you can see something in print t..."
I'll be looking forward to it! Thanks for the work it takes to approve our Location plans.
Christine wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "so the designations are actual locations within the physical buildings."Wow. So it would be heavily subject to change then. I see that the particular listing is "Clinto..."
Am I right about this or does the library decide to assign it to the YA category? In that case, I guess it wouldn't be subject to change, but it still would be a local decision.
I don't see any reason to think any BPL YA designation is subject to change. The part that might change is the Lexile score, if and when Lexile runs it through its program and makes a determination. We will be happy to add such a determination to the book table.Karen, I think the library makes its own designations and also works with the schools with classroom assignments.
Christine wrote: "I don't have a suggestion - but I wonder if there might be a simpler, less subject to change way to determine YA status..."And this is why we've chosen the method we have, in all its imperfections. We debate this issue once or twice a year and have yet to find a better solution.
And unless/until we discover a better method, I would prefer to stick with what we've painstakingly worked out and incorporated into our database.
Christine wrote: "OK, well I won't pretend to understand how this works. Just seemed to me since they attached a particular school name to it, that it might mean it was just for when particular schools were using the book in a classroom. "I think Clinton Hill is the name of the library that holds that copy of the book, not the name of a school.
http://www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/...
Liz M wrote: "Christine wrote: "I don't have a suggestion - but I wonder if there might be a simpler, less subject to change way to determine YA status..."And this is why we've chosen the method we have, in al..."
Sorry, Liz, to have jumped in on this again. I do love to talk about it! I really do respect your wishes for the challenge and don't want to make it tougher on you!
Karen GHHS wrote: "Sorry, Liz, to have jumped in on this again. I do love to talk about it! I really do respect your wishes for the challenge and don't want to make it tougher on you! ...":P No apologies necessary. My post above was a too abrupt way of saying that I hear you & am open to suggestions, but, alas, we (moderators & participants alike!) haven't found a better method yet.
Liz M wrote: "Karen GHHS wrote: "Sorry, Liz, to have jumped in on this again. I do love to talk about it! I really do respect your wishes for the challenge and don't want to make it tougher on you! ...":P No ..."
I didn't think it was too abrupt either. I enjoy the discussions, but don't want to upset anyone.
Sara Grace ('00-'05) wrote: "If this idea has already been rejected, just point me to the thread and accept my apologies for missing it."We did discuss this idea - here is at least part of the thread.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...
And just to make it perhaps easier to wade through, here is Liz's response:http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...
Has this suggestion been discussed before: Continue using Bloom's canon for deciding what books are exempted from the YA Lexile requirement of 800. But, instead of using only the title that actually appears on the canon, exempt everything that author wrote. Using Steinbeck as an example, since Grapes of Wrath is on the canon, then everything Steinbeck wrote, including East of Eden, The Moon is Down, and other disputed Steinbeck titles would be exempted from the Lexile requirement. (Sadly, though, Tarkington's The Magnificent Ambersons would still fall through the cracks. I had thought Alice Adams was on the canon, but I see it's not.)
How about using another library system? My library system Multnomah County Library http://www.multcolib.org/ is the second busiest in the country (by some measures) and doesn't list East of Eden or The Magnificent Ambersons as Y but does list Hunger Games and the Twilight series and seems to keep the same classification in all branches making it easier to search a title.
And, if you are interested, I would be willing to see if I can find out how they decide what is Y and what is not.
Sorry but I just can't remember the rule. For a mega finish which is true?100 pts - Challenge completion
100 pts - sub-challenge completion
100 pts - Mega
or
100 pts - Challenge completion
100 pts - sub-challenge completion
200 pts - Mega Finish
Rebekah wrote: "Sorry but I just can't remember the rule. For a mega finish which is true?100 pts - Challenge completion
100 pts - sub-challenge completion
100 pts - Mega
or
100 pts - Challenge completion
100 p..."
It is
100 pts challenge completion
200 pts Mega Finish bonus
and various bonuses for the sub challenge this season depending on how your ABC challenge went-75 points or 200 points.
I am in the process of moving my previously planned ABC list to RsW tasks. I think that The Scorpio Races would meet the Bechtel test, but, since I have returned the book to the library, I cannot verify it. I think I remember Puck talking with Dory about the races and about her pottery but is that enough? Has anyone read this book who has a better idea if it meets this requirement?
What if for the canon, you also included any book that has a Norton Critical edition (http://books.wwnorton.com/books/subje...)? If scholars have taken the time to write extensively about it and have edited a critical edition for it (It must be worth their time, for them to do this), then I think it would be considered canonical by academia (maybe not all of academia--but the canon is a very contentious subject). And the link has a very convenient list that can be ordered by date, title, or author.
And it would solve an issue that bothers me about Bloom's canon: his tendency to leave out a lot of women and multicultural authors.
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Reading with Style
Books mentioned in this topic
Tales of Unease (other topics)The Scorpio Races (other topics)
The Magnificent Ambersons (other topics)
The Scorpio Races (other topics)
The Master of Ballantrae (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Thomas Hardy (other topics)Arthur Conan Doyle (other topics)
Juliet Marillier (other topics)
Mike Dash (other topics)
Isabel Allende (other topics)
More...
I believe other members have had some success with asking the Lexile people to score a book: http://lexile.com/requestlexile/
Send in a request & if it receives a Lexile score before the end of the challenge, let us know & we'll update your score & the book data.