Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
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why guys have a hard time with vf
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I have no problem whith VF books, unless we deal whith the case of the heroine that loves the alpha-asshole after the sexuall assault. If this happens I start to think she has some loose screws in her brain and don't care anymore about the book
i think its fine if people are not into VF books. I know some women who arent into them as well for the same reasons you listed. when i try to explain in general why women tend to like this style of book, the closest comparison i can think of is big tent pole shoot em up movies or videogames. This genre is generally loved by guys and women (broad stroke generalization here) tend to not favorite them. A guy looks at it and say "whats not to love?" where as a woman would say "well, the plot's stupid. and really? how many people has he killed? this isnt even remotely realistic." yes. they arent realistic or even physically possible. but its fun.
When im reading VF books, 80% of my critic filters are turned off. i am reading VF to go on a fun silly rollercoaster. I dont approach these books the same way i do "regular" novels or other genres.
Kamil wrote: "I have no problem whith VF books, unless we deal whith the case of the heroine that loves the alpha-asshole after the sexuall assault. If this happens I start to think she has some loose screws in ..."I completely agree. I picked up this book once thinking it was going to be just a normal paranormal fantasy, and then the guy raped her while she was asleep and I immediately put it down. I can put up with a lot in terms of chliche fantasy, but when someone falls in love with the guy who raped her, I draw the line.
Marz wrote: "Kamil wrote: "I have no problem whith VF books, unless we deal whith the case of the heroine that loves the alpha-asshole after the sexuall assault. If this happens I start to think she has some lo..."I gotta wonder what the heck kind of books you are stumbling onto when I read the this kind of stuff...
I've been reading these books for years and years. I've read hundreds of them and yes, in the very beginning of the genre back with things like The Flame and the Flower or Rosemary Rogers stuff there was the raping and then "falling in love'. But that hasn't been a main part of the genre for a very long time.
Mari wrote: "i think its fine if people are not into VF books. I know some women who arent into them as well for the same reasons you listed. when i try to explain in general why women tend to like this styl..."
I very much agree with you and its why I sometimes have a hard time joining in vf discussions because some books like Ill Wind to me are just an easy light and fluffy fun book that I get somewhat lost in the fantasy of and at the end of it will be able to briefly say what I enjoyed and didnt enjoy but find that I cannot be analytical with a book like this, I could more with picks like Silent in the Grave that was much more of a character study to me which I liked, also
The Iron Duke there was so much more world building it was easier to discuss
I do think there are two main types of readers and im not going to be sexist and assign sex lol, but I think there are those who love the action and blood and gore and cant be bothered with the plot and those who prefer characters to study a bit more and a plot to sink their teeth into. Thats my two cents worth anyway lol
Ill Wind
Jute wrote: "Marz wrote: "Kamil wrote: "I have no problem whith VF books, unless we deal whith the case of the heroine that loves the alpha-asshole after the sexuall assault. If this happens I start to think sh..."to make an example; in 'club dead' what;'s the first thing bill does once he gets rescued? (the moment in the trunk of the car)
Mod
Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", even though she h..."So many paranormal romances are like that and it's 'ok' because they are destined
Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", even though she h..."I found one of her books on sale at the bookstore and thought I'd try it. I'm used to the whole dominant/destined pnr dynamic, but OMG! So. Much. Stockholm. Syndrome. It read like a warning pamphlet from a domestic abuse prevention agency. Couldn't finish it.
Jessie wrote: "Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", e..."Okay..I have to take it back now. I do remember reading one of her books and not liking that dynamic.
Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", even though she h..."Ugh, yes, this. The stalking theme is a constant through many of the books, but some are way worse than others (I read a whole bunch of them when I had mono for six months, and can't actually stand them when I'm not running a constant fever). There was one book of hers in particular in which there was really no other way to describe what the "hero" did to the main character other than rape, but it was all right because he really loved her and she was his chosen and she learned to love him blah blah blah.... Yeah, no.
JR Ward did that to me too, I think because I read too many of her books in one go after a friend loaned them to me. I hit the "Alpha Male Tolerance Threshold", and just had enough with setting up these interesting, independent female characters, only to have their personalities pretty much erased once they hook up with the alpha males who insist they stay in the house and look pretty and don't worry your little head about it dear, I'll take care of everything. But it's somehow okay because it's totally for their own safety or some crap like that.
I guess that's the reason I tend to shy away from some of the more "traditional" romance, and even some of the paranormal romance. Some of the authors I enjoy write heroines that are strong without being bitchy and continue to be strong even after hooking up with the guy. The Mercy Thompson series is one I like. The Hollows is a good series, even though the main character is screwed up and ends up falling for the wrong guys repeatedly, she doesn't rely on them to save her ass. The Jill Kismet series is another. I guess what I'm saying is I like a happy medium. I think authors can write a story where you can have a strong woman who meets a strong male without having any alpha male/rape scenes and the main character still seems to be able to take care of herself afterwards. Just maybe not that often.
The only problems I've had with romance books is that sometimes the plot is secondary to the romance. It feels like the whole thing is just an excuse for these two characters to bang. Also when the male love interest is a complete and total douche but you know the girl is going to fall for him anyway, that bothers me a bit too.
Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", even though she h..."Yes - I checked out that book from my library (whatever the first one was.. Dark Prince or something... because it popped up when I was looking for something else) and was one of the few that I've stopped after the first few chapters..
Mari wrote: "i think its fine if people are not into VF books. I know some women who arent into them as well for the same reasons you listed. when i try to explain in general why women tend to like this styl..."
Ironically I am into those shoot em up movies and video games, too...
@Reid I wonder have you read any of the other past picks? Because what you're describing as issues with the romance genre (and I won't argue, there is a lot of that out there) doesn't necessarily extend to everything that the "vaginal fantasy" title refers to... originally meaning just something that's usually written by a woman or at least features strong female primary character, in sci fi or fantasy genre and has a romance element... Silent in the Grave and Kushiel's Dart (is that the first one? I'm on book five or so but I think so) for instance I recall as being particularly strong stories apart from the romance.. (Well, you can't take the sex out of Kushiel's Dart, but that's it's own thing.)
It's stuff like this which is part of why I couldn't at all stand Mists of Avalon - a Camelot/King Arthur mythology book from the perspective of Morgain (normally refered to as Morgana or Morgan le Fey). Some parts of it seemed rape-y to me - I know it was supposed to be all Druid and Earth Mother/wicca-like female empowerment, but it still totally read as a young girl being forced to have a sexual experience EARLY (like 13 or earlier), and I could barely even make it a 1/3rd of the way through the book. I really like the Camelot type of tales... but... Ugh!!!However, it wasn't JUST that super feminism turning me off (and the quasi-rape scene) but I also just HATE the main character, Morgain! I can usually like villains... but this wasn't even that I loved to hate her, I just TOTALLY COULDN'T STAND her. And I tried so hard to read more of the book, because it was one of my roommate's favourites. This one WAS plot heavy.
I found myself rooting for Uther. UTHER! (Who I thought it was awesome when he was played by Anthony Stewart Head - aka Giles from Buffy, but even then I still didn't side with the character most of the time.)
Normally, I like plot/character-heavy books. However, to me, Ill Wind had enough of that. It was a fun ride. There are romance novels with far less. (I still read children's and YA books if they have an interesting sounding plot, so something light like that doesn't bother me, if it's fun.)
So romance just needs a different genre name, like how "dolls" became "action figures" and suddenly it was all cool. They are the same thing, but it's only ok for boys to play with one of them.
it's not cool to change names. When I read romance that's what I want. Calling dolls action figures it's just something stupid and will not change the fact that the boy is playing whith dolls
Kamil wrote: "it's not cool to change names. When I read romance that's what I want. Calling dolls action figures it's just something stupid and will not change the fact that the boy is playing whith dolls"kamil I'm pretty sure this is a bit of a joke on the prior poster's part.. But again there is a point... Though to you it doesn't matter to someone else the name can be the barrier.. Heck, I am a woman and I used to balk at romance novels...
Amber Dawn wrote: "Kamil wrote: "it's not cool to change names. When I read romance that's what I want. Calling dolls action figures it's just something stupid and will not change the fact that the boy is playing whi..."I got the joke but I also am a guy that played whith both dolls and action figures
Kamil wrote: "it's not cool to change names. When I read romance that's what I want. Calling dolls action figures it's just something stupid and will not change the fact that the boy is playing whith dolls"I read a book that was all about the fantastic, and involved time travel, but contained a prominent romance arc. It could legitimately have been marketed as alternate history fiction within the SF&F aisle; and in fact, it didn't really belong in a "vanilla" romance genre; but that's what it was labelled as and marketed as.
There's stuff in the SF&F aisle with less deviation from the normal rules of reality. There's stuff in the SF&F aisle with more intense sex scenes and romance arcs that are more central to the non-romance plots. So why was it labelled a romance?
Because that's what the author/publisher/agent expected to sell more books with. Genre labels are 100% about marketing. And the romance label is one that's marketed nearly exclusively to women. Men are subject to normative pressures which discourage us from reading things labeled as romance novels.
Some men can get away with violating the norms of masculinity. For others, it's pretty hazardous. Yeah, it would be nice if men could get into reading romance novels directly without getting flak for it, but if a new genre label can be helpful in making that transition, that's great.
On The Dolls vs Action figures remarks I think of Dolls as squishable or comfortable to hold while action figures are rigid and hard so there is a distinct difference.I will refrain from mentioning all the romance books I read when I was just a wee toddler as I devoured books and those were what were around..
If the plot sucks but the characters are interesting I will generally read the book. If the plot is good but the characters are dull I will generally read the book. If the plot and the characters suck I wonder who slipped one of those darn Gor books (partially a joke) into my reading pile with a different cover.
Nancy Atherton springs to mind when I think of 'romance' books as there are generally romances interwoven into the stories but it has good plotting and interesting characters.
Image matters to people so of course guys aren't really going to want to read books where its about talking about feelings and understanding the inner womanlyness all men need to get into touch to understand her.
Must back away from jumping onto soapboxes about how perception of books translates into the reality of who will read them.
Tomas wrote:Some men can get away with violating the norms of masculinity. For others, it's pretty hazardous. "I tend to get a little irked with the relabeling myself. There are a few series I read that are pretty much straight paranormal fantasy or urban fantasy, though there may be a relationship underlying story line. These are not what I would call romance novels, but every time I go to the book store to pick up the newest novel in the series, there it is, in the romance section. I think what most publishers don't get (cause I'm pretty sure it's the publishers doing this, not the authors), is that if they let the books speak for themselves, they'd get a wider audience from both genders. And yeah, maybe we could come up with a new genre, but at the very least, make them stop mis-shelving my books!
Kamil wrote: "it's not cool to change names. When I read romance that's what I want. Calling dolls action figures it's just something stupid and will not change the fact that the boy is playing whith dolls"I hate when names are changed! It just screams "girl things aren't good enough for boys, we must rebrand them!"
imo, it's an extension of how women are still seen as "lesser" than men, and related to how a man would be shamed by a lot of people if he wanted to wear a skirt or a dress.
Caitlin wrote: "I hate when names are changed! It just screams "girl things aren't good enough for boys, we must rebrand them!" imo, it's an extension of how women are still seen as "lesser" than men, and related to how a man would be shamed by a lot of people if he wanted to wear a skirt or a dress. "
Speaking as a man who wears skirts on a regular basis - masculinized, rebranded, and relabeled skirts, commonly known as "kilts," but let's be honest, a kilt is really a type of skirt - I wouldn't be able to get away with that without the relabeling. The only forward progress I've seen in breaking that particular gender stricture has been through the instrument of relabeling and rebranding.
I'm six feet tall (making me two inches taller than the average man claiming to be six feet tall), am close to two hundred pounds on a muscular build with a 40" chest, speak in a deep bass voice, and have a serious beard. If I were a more feminine-looking or sounding guy, I would have to be careful about when I wore kilts.
As it is, I usually have just enough spare projected masculinity to get away with it even in less friendly subgroups. I've been only occasionally offered violence for not conforming well enough to the masculine role.
Relabeling seems like a very necessary transitional step in opening up traditionally female modes of attire to men. And it seems to be working. I even have some more conservative relatives who seem to accept the kilt when they would likely not accept a skirt - because the kilt invokes traditional Celtic heritage and is all rugged-looking rather than girly.
From my perspective, it's never really seemed like a question of "Is this girl-stuff good enough for me?" It's been more like a question of "Am I going to get rocks thrown at me for violating the strictures of the masculine gender role?"
To be honest there might be another things that might be the reason of guys having a hard time; most of the male alphas have long hair and to someone that can't grow a strong mane it might be frustrating
Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", even though she h..."I clearly see your point. I have been stalked, many of us have. Everyone has to be extra careful without becoming reclusive, anti-social or a jerk. So seeing it in a certain book, where this bastard literally chases her, overcomes her, some-kind of weird dominating conquest takes place and the mc then on cue falls for him( I have read some very good Lesbian and Homosexual lit.that has the same theme. Even a few pages of that stuff can throw me right out of the mood to read anymore of it.). I know I am hyper analyzing this, but the gist is this: If it's in a romance novel, the effect seems to be used frequently. It even crops up in many novel's later books. So it does disturb me to see that 'effect' used. In real life that's not heroic, it's psychotic.
Amber Dawn wrote: "Kamil you made me laugh. :)"I've been reading touch the dark and the description of the males pursuing cassie ( she had a reverse harem basically) is that of a rockstar despite it was mentioned that vampirism doesn't change anyone's apperance. I don't believe they had anyone that looked like David Bovie back in the XV century
Kamil wrote: "To be honest there might be another things that might be the reason of guys having a hard time; most of the male alphas have long hair and to someone that can't grow a strong mane it might be frust..."Oh! I HATE that they have long hair! I mean, not always, but when EVERY MALE in the book has LONG hair... that's frustrating to ME!
Felicia wrote: "The only author I really found offensive with the M/F dynamic was Christine Feehan (?), where literally the dude stalked the woman for the whole book because she was his "chosen", even though she h..."I agree as far as her Dark and Leopard series go but I like her Ghostwalker series very much. It's still alpha-male driven but I find that since the female leads are dealing with past trauma the male leads are a bit more sensitive.
I agree, I don't really find long hair on men attractive usually. @ kamil I have been reading those too... We should chat about it
Amber Dawn wrote: "I agree, I don't really find long hair on men attractive usually. W kamil I have been reading those too... We should chat about it"I find it attractive when they actually care for their hair (ie conditioner if it needs it, brush it occasionally, tie it back if required). I think a lot of guys aren't given the info they need on the maintenance long hair can require.
Caitlin wrote: I find it attractive when they actually care for their hair (ie conditioner if it needs it, brush it occasionally, tie it back if required). I think a lot of guys aren't given the info they need on the maintenance long hair can require. ..."
Good point. To me it's just a not that logical turnoff. I think once in a blue moon it might look attractive (or in fiction set in a historical area where dudes wore their hair long regularly) but otherwise it just makes me think skeezy and or lazy.
To sum it up... we don't have a problem whith vf, it's the genre that has a problem whith us.
Amber Dawn wrote: "Caitlin wrote: I find it attractive when they actually care for their hair (ie conditioner if it needs it, brush it occasionally, tie it back if required). I think a lot of guys aren't given the i..."
Maybe I'm one of the few who likes long hair on a guy, but my husband has long hair. I can see how you might see it as skeezy if it's not properly depicted in a book, but I never tend to envision bad 80's rocker hair, since the hubby has this long silken mane. Lol. It cracks me up, since I have about an inch and a half of hair on my head, and won't let him cut his.
Though I DON'T get why all the guys in a book have to have long hair, that doesn't usually make sense. Maybe if it's a period piece, yeah. But if they're vampires, or whatever, and they're all from different times, it wouldn't make sense for them all to wear long hair...
Candy wrote: "Amber Dawn wrote: "Caitlin wrote: I find it attractive when they actually care for their hair (ie conditioner if it needs it, brush it occasionally, tie it back if required). I think a lot of guys..." ok candy, that's just adorable :)
I don't think it's that I have a hard time reading VF books. The reason I prefer Dresden over some other books more romance focused is because often that romance doesn't tell a story. I'm all about the story. Dresden could star a female and I'd still read it because it's a good story. There is an author, Erin Kellison, she writes excellently but I was only barely able to force myself through her first story. I think her writing is fantastic but her stories lack. The two main characters meet, instantly have attraction.. and then the entire story she's built around them both derails and nothing happens. I can't think of an immediate VF story that I can say are worth reading. Primarily because I'm a little vague on which stories count as VF versus other fantasies genre. Near as I can tell it's a romance influnced fantasy story and I've read a few of those. Wicked Lovely comes to mind. It's pretty good. Some of the series better than the other though it has a really disappointing end novel.Nonetheless, it depends on the style. There just has to be more to the story than the Romance. There has to be a story to the romance. Unfortunately, alot of romances forget that they stil have to tell a story I find.
Lyson wrote: "I don't think it's that I have a hard time reading VF books. The reason I prefer Dresden over some other books more romance focused is because often that romance doesn't tell a story. I'm all about..."Unfortunately for a lot of VF that IS the story. Usually for more traditional romance than a lot of paranormal romance, or fantasy-based romance. I have a problem with that too, when I'm looking to read something else, as do lot of people. I think that's one of the reasons we all sit around and talk about the stuff we actually enjoy reading. There are some really stellar series out there that are very plot driven that just happen to have romance in them. I don't understand why all authors can't put both in a book. I mentioned in one thread that it irks me when I look for a new book in a favorite urban fantasy series and find it in the romance section, just because there happens to be some romance in the story.
Candy wrote: "Lyson wrote: "I don't think it's that I have a hard time reading VF books. The reason I prefer Dresden over some other books more romance focused is because often that romance doesn't tell a story...."Well. Like the Melissa Marr stories are a love story but there's great elements to it. She's chosen to carry a burden. She can't escape it. It's kind of awkward but she has to struggle with her change, feelings of attraction for a mythical being, while trying to sort out her feelings for an old friend. Etc. It's rather interesting.
The problem comes when the romance isn't explored. My sister used to read straight romance books and they all boiled down to "Woman meets man. Man is everything she wants. Relationship ensues. Fin" Usually with her spending a large portion talking abouthow she can never find the right guy and nonsense like that. I don't mind if the Romance is the story if it actually tells the story of it or if theres more to the story then the romance. There's one odd story I can't remember off hand but it was good and the story was all about the relationship. But there was things happening in the relationship itself. I wish I could recall it..
Off topic suggestion for you if you like urban fantasy: How Like a God by Brenda clough. It's one of my favorite books. If not my favorite book of all time.
Lyson wrote:Off topic suggestion for you if you like urban fantasy: How Like a God by Brenda clough I will definitely check it out. Anyone who recommends a book I haven't read gets to be my new best friend for at least 5 minutes ;)
Candy wrote: "Lyson wrote:Off topic suggestion for you if you like urban fantasy: How Like a God by Brenda clough I will definitely check it out. Anyone who recommends a book I haven't read gets to be my new b..."
WOoo Aww I missed my five minutes. It's an interesting read. There's one scene that's a bit touchy (Almost rape. But it's handled excellently) Just in the interest of fair disclosure.
As a guy, I don't have a hard time with VF romance at all. I have to say many guys aren't very in touch with their emotional intelligence so I am going to say if they have a problem with it I suppose it is related to that.
It's all about the author's skill at story telling and the writing .. it could be a story about a eunuch making cheese -- if it's done right :)
@Zachary ... TRUE THAT! sometimes the simplest solution is the accurate one.
Good discussion!The entire issue of what is Romance genre and what isn't is VERY fraught in the publishing world. Dianna Gabaldon's Outlander series created a huge stir 20 years ago. The author thought of it as Historical/Time Travel - the publishers pushed it as Romance, and the stores shelved it in SF/Fantasy as well as romance and historical.
The Historians were offended because no matter how perfect her history was (and it is spot on!) the book had a time-travel element so it WASN'T Historical Fiction.
The S/F n Fantasy crowd were more tolerant, but were confused why this novel that is 99.9% historical was shelved SFF just because of a time travel inciting incident.
The Romance world was offended that a book that was equally concerned with history and the male perspective as it was with the female perspective and the central romance would even be CONSIDERED a romance at all! The Romance Writers of America even published an article detailing all of the ways Outlander defied genre conventions.
In the end run - all this dither was a tempest in a teacup and DG has become one of the best-selling authors of our time, her books are translated into nearly every language in the world, and now, when a new one comes out, stores often stock them in 3 or more areas of the store.
This is why I do not rely on 'official' labels for the books I read. Instead, I read blurbs, ask friends, and rely on the suggestions of book groups like VF.
Eddie Louise wrote: "Good discussion!The entire issue of what is Romance genre and what isn't is VERY fraught in the publishing world. Dianna Gabaldon's Outlander series created a huge stir 20 years ago. The author t..."
I completely agree with you here. Especially now when there is such crossover with Urban Fantasy and Paranormal Romance.
I know what elements I like in a story and what ones I'm not as thrilled to read. I look for those things and it doesn't matter a lot to me how the book is classified. Just how much I enjoy it.
Vaginal Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Ill Wind (other topics)Silent in the Grave (other topics)
The Iron Duke (other topics)
The Flame and the Flower (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Nancy Atherton (other topics)Rosemary Rogers (other topics)
A few separate points I'd like to touch on, the first being that on the whole I don't think any make has a problem with romance in novels. certainly none of the males (stright or gay) that I know have any issues with a heavy sub text of romance and relationship (smutty or otherwise).
I bring this up because many of the books I've been reading lately like the Dresden files have heavy relationship elements recurring throughout but clearly aren't romance novels. I can read novels with the same amount of sex and relationship focused content as my girl friend called something else because relationships make good subplots.
So why don't I reach for romance novels in the genre I like rather than the novels I do?
I think that it comes down to perspective.
When the mc is a crime solver meant to be read and relatable to both genders (be they male or female) it seems that the story is universal and easy for myself or the significant other to dive into. When the character is a crime solver written with the express purpose of giving women a romance novel, it seems to ruin some of the depth i'm able to feel and I have to wade through scenes and content that otherwise might have been quite appealing.
Now this isn't to say that romance novels are written poorly, I've enjoyed many of the romance novels I've read (despite if I knew they were at the start or not) but it seems to me that its detrimental to the genre in general to promote this sort of lopsided writing style.
Take for instance this months book ill wind compared to the Dresden files (several book recommenders link these as similar so I don't feel like its a harsh comparison) the characters from Dresden files are all flawed which makes them feel more real to me. Dresden wants to be a gallant knight but can never follow up despite his best intentions. Susan on the other hand is a somewhat cliche spunky journalist who rides an interesting line between using Dresden for information and caring deeply about him. This makes for their relationship to be interesting. There is an element of the unknown to there meetings. Does she just want to she him or does she want information? The other relationship of Dresden and Murphy is cliche yes but still interesting, two strong willed stubborn characters who love each other.
Take the main two characters for ill wind though and you have the near perfect mc, attractive and smart, strong willed and independent... And frankly kind of a pain in the ass. I'm all for strong women but at times it seems like she is strong just because the writer is trying to appeal to the strong independent market of women. She isn't strong willed for any reason other than "this character is the strong willed one" . then you have the martyr of a lead male in David. Good bye personality. is this the kind of men women desire in their fantasies? I'll take complex over bland any day.
obviously these books sell well so there may be financial motivation to writing like this but this kind of cliche 2d characters for me at least takes something away from whatever romance there is to be had in their relationship.
All romance novels I've read were
Chose one
A) weak and virginal woman with strong over bearing male
B) overly strong feminist stereotype with weak puppy dog male
C) mc who falls for the aloof unobtainable guy
Anyway. I'd be interested if any other guys feel similarly