Fantasy Book Club discussion
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A Song of Ice and Fire- Overrated?
Interesting concept Deedee.... To each her/his own. I wouldn't consider the Lannisters the "heroes" just yet. You have a long way to go in the series. Many twists and turns to come. No one family is "the hero " of this. They are all on this roller coaster ride together. Some stay on it longer than others, some get pushed off before their time, and some not soon enough. I think you'll really enjoy the ride as well!
funny how many ppl think they see this series right through... see, this is one of things he uses so well, he makes you think you know whats going on, only to screw you in some unexpected hole lol... and then, he uses the POV so well, you see stuff happening through ppl's eyes and fully reflecting themselves... which naturally obscures your view of the field as well, makes you think like you know.... and the you get Littlefinger and his likes, and he screws you better than his whores loland I wouldnt go into comparing him with Tolkien, those two are sth totally different and pretty much uncomparable... not cos GRRM is "worse writer", but they "represent" two wholly different brands of fantasy
Here, I named two of my March´s babies after Targaryens:
Miniature Phalaenopsis Orchids: Viserys (left) and Daenerys (right). Both 10 weeks old.
Are they not cute?
I haven't read it (mostly because I don't like reading series until they are finished or will definitely be finished) but I have watched most of Season One of the the TV series. It certainly does have shock value in an almost out-of-the-blue horror sort of way. But overall I am convinced that GRRM set out to write the fantasy equivalent of The Sopranos complete with surprise deaths of major characters. That may make it more realistic but it comes across as gimmicky.
Paul wrote: "But overall I am convinced that GRRM set out to write the fantasy equivalent of The Sopranos complete with surprise deaths of major characters.."Except for the part where the first book was published 3 years before Sopranos went on air. ;)
Evilynn wrote: "Except for the part where the first b..."+1 Good one!
not overrated in my opinion. I love it for the same reason I love house politics in Dune
I wouldn't say A Song of Ice and Fire is overrated, if people like it enough to rave about it then good for them but I would say it's definitely not to my taste.I remember finishing A Game of Thrones and thinking that it wasn't fantasy and was very boring.
Lilyan you are not the only one who did not /does not like the ASoIaF series...In my opinion the author tried to write a fantasy novel but he wanted to give it a sense of reality, he wanted to make the world, the characters, the story more belivable. In order to do that he combined it with some history. In the end he got (in my opinion) something the is neither fantasy nor a historical ficton...It is....something. The focus point is on history instead of the magic and that in a FANTASY NOVEL! Does not work in my opinion....OK, I understand the desire for realism, for wanting to make everything belivable but he could have used other methods...For example Robert Jordan gets the same result in WoT be describing in detail the traditions, customs, language of the Aiel... or describing in length the magical system....
Another reason why I do not like the novels is because from the first volume I had the impresion that you get when you just enter a room full of people that you do not know and from the conversation they are having you have to guess what they have been talking about before you got there. In a situation like this you have to be patient and wait and wait and maybe at a point you will got it. For example I do not understand how Lord Stark could be so stupid and warn the queen that he knows the truth about the assassination of Lord Jon Aryn. I mean he did not know exacltly what happend. Should I have been in his shoes I would have first asked myself how was it possible that Hand of the king was assassinated? How well was he guarded? How many sworn lords were at his disposal? In waht circumstances did he drank that poisoned drink? Who offered it to him? And other common sense questions...
I would rather read a book where the author offers me plenty of additional information. You might say that such a story might be predictable.Yes, it might but here comes the genius of the writer: he can twist the plot in an unexpected way and still make it perfectly logical.
Anyways, if I treat the novels more like a historical fiction ... yeah, they are ok..But I would rather reread Michel Zevaco, Alexandre Dumas or Sir Walter Scott...
How about Shakespeare? Isn't this a poor imitation of one, or a combination of the Bards histories? Bottom line, GRRM makes characters you care enough to spend your hard earned money on, to find out what happens next...., then kills them in immensely depressing ways, and we, as a group, keep buying the books hoping somebody we like lives and avenges the others!I'm sure Dorothy Parker would have something very witty to say about him and us!
Thomas wrote: "How about Shakespeare? Isn't this a poor imitation of one, or a combination of the Bards histories? Bottom line, GRRM makes characters you care enough to spend your hard earned money on, to find ou..."Bingo
Thomas wrote: "GRRM makes characters you care enough to spend your hard earned money on, to find out what happens next...., then kills them in immensely depressing ways, and we, as a group, keep buying the books hoping somebody we like lives and avenges the others!"Rofl. You nailed it. Though, I have totally lost faith that he will give the series any kind of conclusion that I will find satisfactory. Therefore, I have written my own ending. I am delightedly happy with it. :)
and they lived happily in the afterlife ever after :D ?
Lára wrote: "Here, I named two of my March´s babies after Targaryens:Miniature Phalaenopsis Orchids: Viserys (left) and Daenerys (right). Both 10 weeks old.
Are they not cute?"
They are LOVELY! Orchids are so delicate, and difficult to cultivate...congrats!
well, I started watching 3rd season of tv series last monday. Not sure if I´m going to watch all of them, since I´m not used to watching television, but so far it seems like this season is the best one yet. I like Tyrion almost more than Petyr Baelish. and if we´re going to see more of the walking dead, it´s going to be great. and if all of the "main" characters die, I might like the series after all.
In my opinion ASoIaF is one of the most misanthropic pieces of fiction out there. It would be one thing if the story focused on good people trying to make the most out of a shitty world (Tryion for example). But SOOO much time is spent wallowing in how terrible the world is and how pretty much everybody and everything sucks. I can only assume that wallowing in pessimism is the intent of the story.
GRRM's story is basically about how good intentions are punished, cruelty and wickedness pay off and the only way to win is to throw morality under the bus (or carriage I guess). Sorry I have no interest in reading something like that.
Oh, I thought we went over all this before, but always glad to see it start again:)If nothing else, this thread inspired me to start reading ASOIAF, basically I discovered one of the best books ever (in my opinion)
Stewart wrote: "In my opinion ASoIaF is one of the most misanthropic pieces of fiction out there. It would be one thing if the story focused on good people trying to make the most out of a shitty world (Tryion fo..."Except that in the actual books, rather than the 'image' of the books, cruelty and wickedness don't pay off. The 'bad guys' have an even worse survival rate than the 'good guys' in the long run.
Overrated? No, I don't think so. Not to everyone's taste? I would agree with that.
This thread is pretty old, but I just wanted to say, Lilyan, you're NOT alone. I absolutely loathed the first book. I forced myself to finish it over more than a month. I wouldn't say it's overrated, but I personally didn't feel like it was high fantasy; I found that classification misleading.Couple of reasons why I hated it:
-I didn't feel attached to any of the characters. Doesn't make for much of a page turner if I don't care about what happens to anyone.
-I didn't like how each chapter had a heading with a name. That's probably what contributed to me taking so long to read the book. If "Sansa" ever cropped up, I'd throw the book down and neglect it's existence for several days. Then I'd pick it up again hoping she'd get her face smashed in by a cudgel.
-It was really lacking elements of the fantastical...It felt more like some historical fiction from another dimension.
-You're going to say (view spoiler) but 1) they took forever to appear and 2) I saw that "plot-twist" coming from miles away. I enjoy complex world-building with creative magic systems, so this story didn't resonate with me in general.
-Dany was (view spoiler) It really didn't sit well with me.
-The descriptions had a tendency to be repetitive. For example, (view spoiler).
If you adore this book, that's fantastic for you. But please, don't look at people who happen to dislike it like they have three heads (I've gotten quite a bit of that from acquaintances and friends).
The only thing I miss in this series is magic.But Melisandre kind of took care that,I know she is a cleric,but there is also the old woman on the hill that the Brotherhood without Banners goes to see.
As far as fantasy,there was dragons,giants and a group of undead.
But I personally loved the Thomas Covenant Series,and I know alot of people did not.I didn't think they were crazy for not liking that series back then and I won't feel that way about people not liking the ASOIAF series.
Everyone has their own opinion.
As far as fantasy,there was dragons,giants and a group of undead.
But I personally loved the Thomas Covenant Series,and I know alot of people did not.I didn't think they were crazy for not liking that series back then and I won't feel that way about people not liking the ASOIAF series.
Everyone has their own opinion.
Elise wrote: "Overrated? No, I don't think so. Not to everyone's taste? I would agree with that."Did we have a poll (Goodreads and not just Fantasy team? I mean, to see the results, whether is Elise wrote:..."
or
Not to everyone´s taste? No, I don´t think so. Overrated? I would agree with that.
What do you appreciate about the series?
(view spoiler)
I appreciate too much main characters to count
(I am not trying to be rude, I´m just curious)
Can we solve this question at all?
I don't know that Ice and Fire is overrated. It's a good series, if more political than I prefer.What surprises me is that it excites people more than Martin's short stories, which are where he really excels. Check out Sandkings or Portraits of His Children. Or, for that matter, his fantastic novel Dying of the Light. Those should be getting more attention.
B. wrote: "I don't know that Ice and Fire is overrated. It's a good series, if more political than I prefer.What surprises me is that it excites people more than Martin's short stories, which are where he r..."
I've read only his vampire novel, fevre dream, or what it its name? It was ok-ish, but not especially. So that cured me from wanting to try anything else by him.
But you know, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder....so does quality.
I appreciate him for ASOIF.
I do not think that it is overrated at all. It is a weighty book; there is much to discuss in it, both with respect to morality and literature. I find the series thought-provoking. I enjoy his writing style, although there are lapses (as there are in all works), and I definitely found the characters compelling.
To each his own -- I find Joyce and Faulkner unbearable, but that is blasphemy to the Establishment. No one should feel forced to like ASoIaF. But I think the claim that the books are bad or vacuous would be very hard to sustain.
Kris43 wrote: "I've read only his vampire novel, fevre dream, "Not Martin's best work. I strongly recommend either his short stories or Dying of the light (links above). Miles above Fevre Dream.
Overrated ??? No def not ! But I do think some people are over analysing the whole thing !! Just chill and enjoy it ! If not ....... Well then just move on .... It's not hard !!!!
[quote]People actually compare Song of Ice and Fire with The Lord of the Rings and that´s one of the reasons why I think it´s overrated, as not rated with too many stars but rated as great as Mr. Tolkien´s trilogy even though, at least in my opinion, it is not even near it. [/quote]Though in generally the same genre ("Fantasy"), LotR and Tolikens work are dissimilar enough where to compare them really does neither author any favors.
I'd even argue that the two works are in completely different subgenres. LotR would be "Epic/High Fantasy", while "GoT" would be "Low fantasy".
I also think both sagas are a product of their times, and rightly so. Imagine if someone tried to air "Breaking Bad" back a few decades ago? SImilarly, I don't think Martin's grim style and propenstity for unusual sexual escapades, incest, killing priamry characters, etc. would have gone over as well, even in the fairly recent past.
That said, I think it's apparent that both authors put quite a bit of thought into their worlds, and that comes across in the pages of their books.
Sorry for the wordiness.
But Ulitimatley, I think it's a matter of personal taste.
I was NOT, repeat NOT, a fantasy fan, before I read GOT.I HATED....HATED.... the POV, style for about 2/3 of the first book until I got used to it. Then when I had to read another book, by another author, I missed it terribly. ( go figure)!
I didn't really care too much for certain characters, but they grew, changed, and even matured, if you will with each book.
Was every book a winner? NO NO NO!
Were they all worth 5 stars NOT NOT NOT!
But..... Is GRRM a gifted writer? 7 Hells yes!
There is a world out there that is detailed, down to the stitching on Tyrion's britches, the components in the breakfast he ate and the 2 different colours of his eyes.
Not to mention the complex relationships between the 7 kingdoms, 7 Gods and 7 Hells, faceless killers, the Narrow Sea, Dancing Masters, the greatest city that ever was and ever will be, the unsullied, the wall, and what's beyond, in every direction.
For someone who gets distracted by anything that moves.... To be able to read these books 3 times and continue to enjoy them, and love, hate, adore and be disgusted by many of these characters is a pleasure.
Just because we dont agree with what a character may think, or do, doesn't mean we can't enjoy reading about them!
Ned was nearsighted and refused to see the future, but what a MAN!
Littletwistedfinger is one of my favorite characters of all times! Without him there would practically be no story!
And cray cray Catlyn... Woah.... Talk about bad decisions!
And Arya... Has the worst sense of direction and timing in the world but I love her.
Jon Snow is insufferable...and needs a good spanking, but I think he'd enjoy it too much.
All in all, Tyrion is awesome......
And Tywain is amazing.
( yes I've read all the books so far) this is meant to be spoiler free.)
If you ACTUALLY READ the books, you would realize that Dany was "taken"
Far too young ( yes yes yes I know....but it's not our culture )
But Kahl took great care.......read it again all who want to argue!
Her brother was the psycho!!!!
I don't condone the act, I don't excuse it!
But you need to make sure you read GRRM's words not your concept of what happens in his books.
Nuffield said.....Eyehavenofilter!
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "I was NOT, repeat NOT, a fantasy fan, before I read GOT.I HATED....HATED.... the POV, style for about 2/3 of the first book until I got used to it. Then when I had to read another book, by another..."
Well that put a smile on my face this morning, well said, sir:)))
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "I was NOT, repeat NOT, a fantasy fan, before I read GOT.I HATED....HATED.... the POV, style for about 2/3 of the first book until I got used to it. Then when I had to read another book, by another..."
nicely put, loving the map collection btw, meaning to get the cookbook so I can cook some Dornish hot meals when my digestion gets its ... together LMAO :D
I love a Song of Ice and Fire! Can't wait for the next book!! (If RR Martin ever finishes it!)
I think that aSoIaF has dropped off in quality --- it seems to me that GRRM lost control of the story in the last two books, and he's taking longer and longer to churn them out and they sort of meander now.I did like the premise of a more "realistic" medieval setting, and I enjoyed all the surprise character deaths and political intrigue.
Shadowdenizen wrote: "[quote]People actually compare Song of Ice and Fire with The Lord of the Rings and that´s one of the reasons why I think it´s overrated, as not rated with too many stars but rated as great as Mr. T..."You do know what "saga" is, though?
And no, ít´s not the same genre (Fantasy), I agree with that.
since we´re all writing our opinions here, I say Martin is not a fantasy writer at all.
He´s a historical fiction, with some fantasy (dragons) elements writer, but nothing more.
I´ve seen all 3 seasons of Game of Thrones series and I am going to read his "popular/best" books, too, even though I´ve already given up the first one two times.
I can't wait for the next book to come out.
I mean,obviously I have to.
I mean,obviously I have to.
Lára wrote: "since we´re all writing our opinions here, I say Martin is not a fantasy writer at all. He´s a historical fiction, with some fantasy (dragons) elements writer, but nothing more.
..."
I quite agree. He has taken a particularly bloody period of English history and embroidered around it, and that's his skill. I don't say that to diminish the books, which are an amazing read; but I don't think it's fantasy in the normal sense.
You could say much the same, by the way, of Guy Gavriel Kay, and I would be the last to do him down.
I bought the whole collection and read a Game of Thrones (1st book) two days ago. What I think, now:
1. he knows how to write
2. wow, they actually included almost everything in the tv show
3. there´s little you can find out reading a book, after watching tv show - it´s not worth it
4. tv show made things more bloodier and more phornographic
5. we're following the stories of children
6. after so much talk about YA, isn´t this book YA too, I mean since a book where a teen as main character is considered a YA? Or is this actually a middle grade book? It could be.
7. too much history and mythology
8. definitely overrated
LOL! thinking of those books as y.a. is hilaarious, although I don't think the fans will be amused. interesting points you bring up lara
Lára wrote: "3. there´s little you can find out reading a book, after watching tv show - it´s not worth it"Well, that one made me smile, considering on the amount of things told in the book, that haven't made it into the tv show.^^
Mpauli wrote: "Lára wrote: "3. there´s little you can find out reading a book, after watching tv show - it´s not worth it"Well, that one made me smile, considering on the amount of things told in the book, tha..."
Really!
There's no accounting for taste, I suppose. This series is very polarizing. Everyone I know who has read the books either hated the first book and stopped or devoured the entire series. There was no middle ground. I happen to fall into the latter camp. I really like this series. I like the grittiness. I like the political intrigue. I like the fact that every character has to deal with the consequences of his or her actions and that sometimes that consequence is a gruesome death. I like the unfairness of Sansa's life after her father's death because life isn't fair. I like that Jaime Lannister went from a complete selfish bastard to someone who would actually give two thoughts to another person. He's one of my favorite characters now, second only to his brother Tyrion, who was seen as a manipulative asshole but is one of the most honorable characters in the entire cast. I like that those characters have grown and I like that Cersei hasn't because her head is too far up her own ass.I like that a series like this exists in the fantasy genre from an author who isn't afraid to tell this story, because it shows the breath of the genre as a whole. It works for me and, to me, this series isn't overrated at all. It's one of the best I've read. I recommend it to everyone who hasn't read it and if, after reading Game of Thrones, they don't like it, that's fine too.
Erikson has been mentioned on this thread. Again, no accounting for taste. I read Gardens Of The Moon and found it had some very interesting fantasy ideas wrapped in some of the most disjointed and confusing story structure I've ever had the misfortune to read. Life is too short for me to slog through nine more books like that, that, if Gardens was any indication, were in desperate need of a strong editor who could whip that stuff into something resembling a coherent story. His writing style is very minimalist and clipped. He has his fanboys too, who swear the man is the future of the genre. This makes me laugh because Glen Cook did it first twenty years ago and did it better.
tl;dr. The series isn't overrated at all. But rating a series like this -- really anything born of a creative endeavor -- is too subjective of an exercise. The art is in the eye of the beholder.
“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago.” Quotes for people in this group:
“Ever notice how 'What the hell' is always the right answer?”
“Words do not express thoughts very well; every thing immediately becomes a little different, a little distorted, a little foolish. And yet it also pleases me and seems right that what is of value and wisdom of one man seems nonsense to another.”
“It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.”
“As long as we are children, we have the ability to experience things around us--but then we grow used to the world. To grow up is to get drunk on sensory experience.”
“We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking.”
“The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.”
“The first duty of a man is to think for himself”
“No matter how you care to define it, I do not identify with the local group. Planet, species, race, nation, state, religion, party, union, club, association, neighborhood improvement committee; I have no interest in any of it. I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to.”
Quotes for series:
“The wealth required by nature is limited and is easy to procure; but the wealth required by vain ideals extends to infinity.”
“Be the change that you wish to see in the world.”
“If you're going to kick authority in the teeth, you might as well use two feet.”
“Time is a game played beautifully by children.”
“The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything.”
“Happiness consists in frequent repetition of pleasure”
“I never found beauty in longing for the impossible and never found the possible to be beyond my reach.”
“Expect everything, I always say, and the unexpected never happens.”
“A truth that's told with bad intent
Beats all the lies you can invent.”
“Thats not a bad word, hate and war are bad words, fuck isnt.”
Sayonara, people
“It takes too much energy to be against something unless it's really important. ”
I'm still underlining like mad in the forth book, and realizing how much I really missed the first 2 times through. I just love the little quips like " poor Lancel, he looks like he has one foot in the grave, but is he crawling in, or crawling out?" just these little " toss asides" have me in stitches!
Lára wrote: "“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago.” Quotes for people in this group:
“Ever notice how 'What the hell' is always the right answer?”
wtf ?
“Words do not express though..."
I actually liked the TV series far far more than the books...The books,especially the latter ones,are grossly over-rated I feel..The Wheel of Time or Mistborn are far better..and I just finished The Way of Kings..The Stormlight Archive promises to be the best of the lot..fingers crossed.
Sayan wrote: "I actually liked the TV series far far more than the books...The books,especially the latter ones,are grossly over-rated I feel..The Wheel of Time or Mistborn are far better..and I just finished Th..."I can feel you, there. I personally like the books way better probably because I read them before the tv show ever came out. I did attempt to read the Wheel of Time series, but I could not get into it..at all. I am anticipating Martin's next book, but must acknowledge that he isn't getting any younger, so I don't know if I'll ever get to finish the series
The thing about it that I find interesting is that there are almost no "bad guys" or "good guys" just varying shades of grey. Jamie Lannister, Tyrion Lannister, you like them at times and hate them at times.
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Game of Thrones #1 (other topics)The Emperor's Blades (other topics)
Dying of the Light (other topics)
Sandkings (other topics)
Portraits of His Children (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Neal Stephenson (other topics)Ayn Rand (other topics)
Now on to reading the next book in the series: A Feast for Crows