English Mysteries Club discussion
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Leslie wrote: "Carol wrote: "I just read Edmund Crispin's The Moving Toyshop. What fun! Oxford on steroids: dons rampant, students couchant, & Gervase Fen drinking & detecting at large. A fast-paced puzzle of daz..."Me, too! Is it because she's just not very willing?
Carol - I'm a big Moving Toyshop fan as well!
Just finished Whose Body? Curious to read more regarding Wimsey's character development.
Karlyne wrote: "I haven't read that one in a while, Carol, but I always find the murder rather gruesome. I don't remember racist remarks, so I'm wondering if I just passed over them as a sign of the times or if I have a censored version? Not only gruesome but highly improbable!
My edition is a Fontana published 1962. My library doesn't have this book to compare editions.
I think Karlyne that it is a sign of these times & that these Golden Age writers weren't particularly racist but just parrotted the attitudes of the age.
When I finish the book I'll quote the phrases in my review!
***Carol*** wrote: "I think Karlyne that it is a sign of these times & that these Golden Age writers weren't particularly racist but just parrotted the attitudes of the age."But isn't that what racism is? Not so much personal hatred as parroting biased attitudes & actions. For the victims, the devil's in the impact more than the intentions. Which is not to blame the great writers from Shakespeare to Marsh & onward, only to stay vigilant ourselves.
Carol wrote: "***Carol*** wrote: "I think Karlyne that it is a sign of these times & that these Golden Age writers weren't particularly racist but just parrotted the attitudes of the age."But isn't that what r..."
I'm not sure if I can explain it properly but I think some people would be racist/sexist/classist no matter what their upbringing where as some wouldn't.
Also some parrot an attitude that they may not have had in real life. I read somewhere that Christie was fond of her childhood servants - yet in her books she was pretty much always derogatory about the female ones.
Carol wrote: "***Carol*** wrote: "I think Karlyne that it is a sign of these times & that these Golden Age writers weren't particularly racist but just parrotted the attitudes of the age."But isn't that what r..."
I think it's often unthinking, and that's not an excuse but, as you say, is the reason to be vigilant.
& to watch what comes out of your own mouth!I think attitudes to what is acceptable have changed a lot! I know some racist terms that used to be bandied about in NZ but I haven't heard them in years.
We're living in a period of rapid social change - both progress and reaction - so it's good to keep in mind that in the past that was not so. Change happened, but much more slowly; lots of people just accepted what their elders did and said. I don't like the censoring of books; I think we need to read as written but keep in mind how lucky we are to live now and not then.
Jean wrote: "We're living in a period of rapid social change - both progress and reaction - so it's good to keep in mind that in the past that was not so. Change happened, but much more slowly; lots of people..."I agree, Jean. If I find a book too offensive then I have the option to not read it. But I like to make my own decisions.
Leslie wrote: "Anyway, I am curious why you think Alleyn & Troy have "one of the most uncomfortable romances in detective fiction"… "Sorry Leslie missed this!
It's like watching 2 stiff legged animals pacing awkwardly around each other. My memory is that is just became painful to read!
I'm thinking I liked Tey a lot less than other readers possibly because I read uncensored & they didn't. I could reread sometime - I still have my Kobo desktop even though my Kobo has died.
We think alike, Karlyne.As for Alleyn and Troy . . . their relationship made me wonder how the British ever managed to reproduce.
That made me laugh, Jean!And, Carol, I came to Tey late and I've only read a couple. I adored Brat Farrar and loved Daughter of Time, but The Man in the Queue was... mediocre.
Jean wrote: "We think alike, Karlyne.As for Alleyn and Troy . . . their relationship made me wonder how the British ever managed to reproduce."
I must look up Marsh's Wiki page to found out more about her background.
Karlyne wrote: "That made me laugh, Jean!
And, Carol, I came to Tey late and I've only read a couple. I adored Brat Farrar and loved Daughter of Time, but The Man in the Queue was... mediocre."
Yes to the first two! I would love to get hold of Daughters of Time again.
I didn't like The Man in the Queue & Miss Pym investigates also pretty dire but (view spoiler)
I've had The Franchise Affair recommended to me as well. I should put it as a Want to Read
***Carol*** wrote: "Jean wrote: "We think alike, Karlyne.As for Alleyn and Troy . . . their relationship made me wonder how the British ever managed to reproduce."
I must look up Marsh's Wiki page to found out more..."
She had what was considered in the early 1900s as a 'privileged life' that was focused on the arts & theatre. From memory she studied painting at school. You should try and get hold of Black Beech and Honeydew her autobiography.
Ella's Gran wrote: She had what was considered in the early 1900s as a 'privileged life' that was focused on the arts & theatre. From memory she studied painting at school. You should try and get hold of Black Beech and Honeydew her autobiography. Thanks. There have been 2 biographies as well. I have a vague memory of her being interviewed on TV - very "plummy" voice.
***Carol*** wrote: "This article quite interesting http://www.criminalelement.com/blogs/..."
"the fact that she struggled at all with these issues sets her ahead of her contemporaries": really good point. She wasn't just parroting attitudes but struggling with what was right.
& so far her portrayal of female servants is pleasant - not contemptuous.
Jean wrote: "We think alike, Karlyne.As for Alleyn and Troy . . . their relationship made me wonder how the British ever managed to reproduce."
LOL!!
Karlyne wrote: "Jean wrote: "We're living in a period of rapid social change - both progress and reaction - so it's good to keep in mind that in the past that was not so. Change happened, but much more slowly; l..."I just read the shockingly racist emails exchanged for years by top officials in Ferguson, MO--a truly depressing reminder that it's far from behind us. http://ow.ly/Lpf3a
Nowadays when a writer shows such attitudes, it's to reveal what the protagonist is up against.
Carol wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Jean wrote: "We're living in a period of rapid social change - both progress and reaction - so it's good to keep in mind that in the past that was not so. Change happened, but much..."It's just plain sad.
Leslie wrote: "Jean wrote: "We think alike, Karlyne.As for Alleyn and Troy . . . their relationship made me wonder how the British ever managed to reproduce."
LOL!!"
IMO it got worse when Alleyn & Troy did reproduce & gave us young Rupert.
Larger-than-life detectives like Wimsey, Alleyn, & Campion reveal their feet of cardboard when they fall in love, & especially when they marry.
Carol wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Jean wrote: "We think alike, Karlyne.As for Alleyn and Troy . . . their relationship made me wonder how the British ever managed to reproduce."
LOL!!"
IMO it got worse when Alley..."
I think one of the reasons for their women being so hesitant is the realization of what it means to be a detective/policeman's wife. They were all intelligent women. I think I remember a Patricia Wentworth where the woman just couldn't face it and sheared off!
***Carol*** wrote: "& so far her portrayal of female servants is pleasant - not contemptuous."https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
I put my review up - & the controversial wordings are over 12 pages, not 2. Sorry about that.
Carol- I love all the Edmund Crispin novels. You will have a lot of fun reading the rest.
I am reading #11 in the Inspector Appleby series, A Night of Errors. I haven't gotten very far yet, but am enjoying Innes' sense of humor and the writing style.
***Carol*** wrote: "Jean wrote: "We think alike, Karlyne.Yes to the first two! I would love to get hold of Daughters of Time again."
I think by far my favorite Tey book is To Love and Be Wise.
I didn't know they were available from Gutenberg Ann. Good to know!
Arpita wrote: "I didn't know they were available from Gutenberg Ann. Good to know!"Not legally in the U.S. as her books aren't in the public domain here. The law is different in different countries, so individuals should check the availability for their location. Just saying...
Hmmm. I didn't check but I wondered why I was paying a few dollars for the few books I have bought by Tey from Amazon. Thanks Leslie for the clarification.
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Just finishing TO SEDUCE A SINNER by Elizabeth Hoyt. Love the series, but not crazy about explicit love scenes. Could be a bit more discrete in my opinion.
Mara wrote: "Just finishing TO SEDUCE A SINNER by Elizabeth Hoyt. Love the series, but not crazy about explicit love scenes. Could be a bit more discrete in my opinion."I felt that way about J.D. Robb's "In Death" series...
I'm not familiar with Gutenberg. Tell me more.
Kay wrote: "I'm not familiar with Gutenberg. Tell me more."Project Gutenberg is a nonprofit effort to digitize books in the public domain and make them available (for free). The main site, which I linked above, is in the U.S. so follows the U.S. copyright laws but there are other similar websites based elsewhere. The Australian one often has books (Tey for example) which are in public domain in Australia but not in the U.S. (The ethics of downloading such books I leave to each of us to decide for ourselves.)
There are other sites for public domain ebooks but most of them are just copies of the Project Gutenberg books. One worth mentioning is http://www.feedbooks.com/publicdomain, which sometimes has books not available on Gutenberg.
I am rereading the first Rumpole book (Rumpole of the Bailey) via audiobook. Frederick Davidson isn't my favorite narrator but he is pretty good as Rumpole.
I just finished another mystery, The Three Coffins (also known as "The Hollow Man"). While Carr's writing style isn't as good as his contemporaries Crispin or Innes in my opinion, this was an extremely clever mystery! Carr is a master of the "locked room" mystery and I can understand why this book was on the Guardian's list. 4*
Reading "Bernard Treves Boots" ... just reread "Hushed Up." Both English Mysteries in classic style.
I have been reading more American mysteries this year (just finished #5 in John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee series a few days ago, A Deadly Shade of Gold) but I did manage to squeeze in a reread via audiobook of Christie's first Tommy & Tuppence book, The Secret Adversary. Nadia May's narration made me like this 1920s spy thriller more than I had when I read it in print. A quick fun read.What are you all reading now that we don't have a book of the month?
My next English mystery will probably be the next Inspector Appleby book, The Paper Thunderbolt (otherwise known under the British title as "Operation Pax")...
I heard a radio interview with Sophie Hannah on the "world's favorite Christie" poll that's currently ongoing. The interviewer asked her what her favorite Agatha Christie was, and she gave him a bunch of answers, depending on what the meaning of "favorite" is. She had a "best all-rounder," "best murderer," etc. Although I've read all of the Agatha Christies, there are some that I don't remember, and Hannah mentioned five of them. So I've decided to reread those five. I've started with "Sad Cypress."
I just ordered "Sad Cypress", I dont think I ever read it. Thankfully my library had it.
Leslie wrote: "I have been reading more American mysteries this year (just finished #5 in John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee series a few days ago, A Deadly Shade of Gold) but I did manage to squeeze..."Much as I love Christie, I couldn't bear Tommy & Tuppence!
At some point this month I will read my June nomination for here The Clock Strikes Twelve I'm a bit behind with my reading this month though. Still haven't finished my May read for another group. :(
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I just finished the very first Tommy and Tuppence, I think they improved in later books.
THE MATCHMAKER by Elin Hilderbrand. I like it better than Ms. Hilderbrand BEAUTIFUL DAY.
Susan wrote: "I just finished the very first Tommy and Tuppence, I think they improved in later books."Definitely, they do. But Tommy & Tuppence were not Christie's best writing. Of course, Jean, you aren't a big Christie fan to begin with if I remember correctly!
Joan, I still run across Christie books I haven't read. Sometimes though I think it is a new-to-me book only to discover I have read it before just under a different title.
English Mysteries Club
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One of my all-time favorite mysteries!
@***Carol*** - I have the same feeling as Karlyne; did I just miss those remarks or did I read a 'cleaned up' edition?
Anyway, I am curious why you think Alleyn & Troy have "one of the most uncomfortable romances in detective fiction"…