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The Truth War
finding the truth of Christianity.
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When someone claims Jesus came to them in a dream: do we immediately assume it's TRUTH? Many Christians would say YES.I behave just like Thomas: and question everything.
Tradition means something, we have lost a lot of tradition, particularly within the Protestant faith. Certain branches of Catholicism (not Roman Catholic) actually don't put as much emphasis on the Bible as they do tradition. I suppose a lot of it has to do with our views of God. In the Western world we place a lot of value on evidence and the scientific method and we value views of God that follow suit with that. Not all the world views God that way, and I think that is okay. I am not sure that entirely answers your question.
Tradition is wonderful. But it's not truth.I think the only way to view God - is through the Bible. :)
Anything else is just chaos. That is how the world views God.
I am not sure you are right. I am not sure the truth of God is even fully available to us. See Romans and Paul's comments on the foolishness of God being greater than our greatest wisdom. Tradition is how we interpret the Bible, since lots of tradition is gone much of the original meaning of the Bible is gone. Divorce and the creation story are two examples that come to mind. Truth is always filtered through our own biases.
Some basic thoughts on a pretty broad topic:When I think of truth, I think of Jesus, who said that He was the Truth. And I think that which draws us closer to Christ is of the truth; what pulls us away from Him is not.
When I think of tradition in the Bible I think of the Pharisees, and all the extra rules that they'd added to the law. I think tradition isn't wrong in itself, except where it contradicts or usurps the role of scripture - which seems to happen a lot.
The Holy Spirit brings clarity to the scriptures. It is possible to know the Bible inside out and not know Christ. Seminaries are infamous for this kind of instruction. The Holy Spirit also brings revelation to specific areas of our life and those of others (as in dreams, words of knowledge, and many other ways) but I do agree that for believers, the logos word should be pursued and followed before one should regularly expect the rhema word of God...of course, He ultimately decides and does what He pleases in this :)
Interesting Emily, because I see it completely the opposite. The Pharisees were so concerned with what was written they lost sight of what was important. I think this is a huge problem in the church, what is written becomes more important than the relationship with God. It allows us to judge and condemn, abuse and dismiss. It becomes our stumbling block. But I do completely agree with your first paragraph, that which draws us closer to Christ is truth.
That's what I was trying to say, but maybe it wasn't clear...when I pointed out about seminaries knowing the written word without knowing Christ.
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. Personally, I am not sure where I stand on it all. I find it is human interpretation of the Bible that causes trouble more than the Bible itself. But there are plenty of passages, like the final chapters of Ezra where the men divorce their pagan wives and abandon their children, to be problematic. We aren't very honest about these kinds of problems when we talk about them. That is where tradition and traditional understanding come into play. Sometimes there were undercurrents in Jewish and early Christian culture that bring forth different meaning from a passage than what we in the 21st century tend to see. So what is truth there? When two interpretations of the same passage conflict, whose truth is right? This topic intrigues me quite a bit.
It's a good discussion. Another aspect is that everyone carries a different part of God's DNA, so to speak. We all reflect His creativity in diverse ways, and the Bible makes clear that in assemblies, every believer holds a different piece to a much larger picture puzzle. This is integral in seeing truth, too.But I think of Isaiah 45:19 and how the mysteries of God are open to us who are faithful to pursue Him. So if we're genuinely asking Him, He's going to bring us to more amazing truths.
P.S. I also struggle with those places in scripture where God seems unfair, like the end of Ezra. On the one hand, the OT is full of types, and so if for example the Amekelites in 1 Samuel are a type of the flesh, and the last person down to an infant had to be destroyed, it's understandable cognitively but repulsive emotionally, and really awful to read. But I'm beginning to see these passages more as God's holiness than His cruelty. He HAS to manifest the wrath and the judgment, not because He's mean-spirited, but because He is so holy and He is beholden to Himself.
I agree, and I hadn't heard about the Old Testament being full of types. Interesting perspective. I think the OT was much more honest about God's power, and that both good and bad come from Him. They acknowledged God's power over the universe much more than we do in our modern culture of "God is good, Jesus is love, and Christians are happy" culture.
Emily wrote: "P.S. I also struggle with those places in scripture where God seems unfair, like the end of Ezra. On the one hand, the OT is full of types, and so if for example the Amekelites in 1 Samuel are a t..."Amen
I agree with Rod. The Bible is enough for me. Traditions of man are just that traditions. The only real truth is God's truth. This is the only way to view God. The rest begins to get chaotic and argumentative.
But that is just it, Janette, what makes your interpretation of the Bible right compared to others? So much division of the church comes from this problem.
Janette wrote: "I agree with Rod. The Bible is enough for me. Traditions of man are just that traditions. The only real truth is God's truth. This is the only way to view God. The rest begins to get chaotic a..."Totally right. God says to stay away from traditions of men. So must learn the bible as commanded so you can know what to separate yourself from. It is like this: Jesus fellow shipped with sinners but knew by His heart-since He was the living word- what not to be involved in and not to be a partaker of their sins He was separate enough not to sin. He chastised the religious leaders for their traditions. He said we are not better than Him to not do by example how he lived. They would not have crucified Him if he did not stand up against this. We would have no substitute for sin then. There is commandments to do like Him, so I will do it. The word of God above any traditions and as he did you can be among people that do that,_traditions- but keep your heart clean from it- standing against it if it does come to that.
K quote:"...what makes your interpretation of the Bible right..."
This is the new favourite argument I get from atheists and very confused liberal Christians. And its a fair question.
But as always - I think God is 2 steps ahead of us. Its amazing how a child can read the Bible, and a senor citizen can read it, and God gets his points across both ways. The real problem is us 15 to 45 year olds who read it and confuse everything.
A secret to reading the Bible is: what was the author trying to say? Or one step further: what was God trying to say?
Imagine standing before God and having him say, "Why didn't you just believe exactly WHAT was written?" The poetic parts are poetic, the historical parts are historical, the visionary parts symbolic.
I know lots of people who don't want the Bible to means what it says. And these people are Christians (so they claim.)
Emily quote:
But I think of Isaiah 45:19 and how the mysteries of God are open to us who are faithful to pursue Him. So if we're genuinely asking Him, He's going to bring us to more amazing truths.
I think if our heart is right with God certain truths will become known. But from studying past theologians I doubt any of us has a fully right heart. So our truth is somewhat limited.
But just like the thief on the cross - we get enough information for salvation.
Rob I think you're on to something here. I agree with the problem being those 15-45 who confuse things. Using me for instance (I'm 18), I prefer to read the bible, pray, and research every aspect of the bible. I don't require anything fancy or complex nor do I want to complicate the word. If it's an apple call it an apple, don't chop, dice, mix, add, or divide it and make it unrecognizable as an apple. Also, I ask a lot of questions (both to God and others) and make sure all assumptions can be proven throughout the word and confirmed in the spirit. I think the attitude when need to have is 'God I'm wrong I know absolutely nothing. I'm dumber than a rock so I need you to show and reveal to me your will and your truth.' and not 'I'm right and they're all wrong and I'ma use this to prove them all wrong and me a true righteous Christian.' See with the second thought process we're open to allow our own understanding to interfer and we miss out on learning all that God was trying to teach.
Rod, I think atheists and liberal Christians counter with these questions because there are a lot of whacky teachings out there. These people are quite adamant that their truth is Truth. I believe there are a handful of core Truths and the rest is up to interpretation. A question I had posed to me once was: does Jesus really expect us to cut off our arm to prevent sin? These are good questions because this passage isn't clearly poetic but neither did He begin requiring His followers to chop limbs off. How about issues such as divorce, alcohol, creation, do those actively sinning belong in church, war, etc? There are varying opinions on these, who's right? Which denomination is right? Are others going to hell if they believe differently than you?
We also need to be careful dismissing some of the things liberal Christians see of Christ. While I dismiss any theology that diminishes the deity of Christ, I greatly appreciate their focus on the life of Christ.
K wrote: "Rod, I think atheists and liberal Christians counter with these questions because there are a lot of whacky teachings out there. These people are quite adamant that their truth is Truth. I believ..."Cutting off of the arm will be literal during the millennium. Everything fits together like a puzzle with pieces that go in the right slot.God could care less about opinions of anyone. It is the truth of His word that he cares about. there are also many Christs and Jesus. God is particular that you are believing in the true one according to the scriptures In Corinthian 15. These things also ( Other Christs and Jesus-es) mess with the deity of Christ- which means anointed by the way-the Antichrist by the term is anointed.the word of God is right always.
I see the bible as being the Word of God, and it was a good thing that it was sealed so that it could not be added to. But in saying that, the Word of God is not limited to the bible, essentially the bible is the history of God's words to his people, yet his words continue even now and I think some have learnt to depend upon the bible instead of just listening to God, but indeed what God will tell us now will not differ from the bible as God doesn't change, but how God influences your life etc and his words to you, is God's words to you...and God's WordI think in our modern society to try and tell non-believers that the bible is flawless is pointless, because it was written by men and women and they will obviously know that. Sure we don't even know who wrote sections of the bible, such as Revelations has three possible authors! Most likely being the disciple John, another candidate is John the Presbyter who was John's disciple on Patmos... other books in the Bible as I said we don't know who the authors are, and maybe never will !! Plus there is an argument that the decision made by the council that decided which books to go into the bible may have made mistakes, some of the books they left out can show great insight and flesh out parts of the bible story which are incomplete, for example The Book of Enoch.
What do we look for when we love a person, don't we seek a person who is flawed but we see their flaws as perfect? God gave us free-will so that we would learn to love him freely, but he loves our imperfections out of mercy and understanding.So if we are flawed perfection, then so are things we create? So hence we have flaws in the bible, such as discrepncies between the gospels.... but those flaws are perfection. So the Bible is perfection, because it is flawed...
But some say it was God-inspired writing, well of course it was and I am sure God had a hand in protecting documents through time... but we too can be God inspired in God's words for our lives....
Differences between versions, between gospels etc are really not so important are they? What is important is that we love God and have him in our hearts and do our best to live according to his laws....
K wrote: "Rod, I think atheists and liberal Christians counter with these questions because there are a lot of whacky teachings out there. These people are quite adamant that their truth is Truth. I believ..."The principle behind cutting off a limb to avoid sin was not new. God was being consistent and I think you need to see it as a principle and a warning. In the Old Testament it was people groups they were told to totally destroy so that sin would not infect their nation. They didn't do it and as a result idols and false religions got a foothold that caused all kinds of problems.
Did Jesus mean it literally? I think rarely is your arm the problem. However, if the only way you can stop yourself from straying from God involved something like that -- I'm sure He considered(s) the soul far more important than the body.
Divorce was allowed - but only in certain cases - like adultery. I think many of these . . . questions that supposedly keep people apart can be easily solved by a deeper look at the Scriptures and a little more grace extended by just about everybody.
Alcohol is a great one. Clearly they drank wine in Biblical times. It was often watered down - and sometimes the water itself wasn't as easily to come by or "safe." The entire culture was different. There weren't supermarkets with endless choices of beverages. The Bible also has many passages that warn about too much wine and getting drunk. Do I think it's a sin to have a glass now and then? No. Do I think it's necessary? No. Do I think drinking can be a stumbling block and a weakness for many? Yes. It's a more expensive than average beverage that just isn't necessary and can cause more problems than I'd like so I choose to abstain. It is just my choice.
Creation is clearly outlined in Genesis. I don't think there should be any debate about that. Genesis is a history book - not poetry, prophecy . . . It is God explaining to us what happened. He was there - He knows.
Actively sinning. That's an interesting concept. I think it should be more like those who are in open rebellion in some way. I think there is a lot of sinning that happens by church members - especially those that like to call others on what they're doing. If someone is being very open about rebelling against God and still part of the church (attending and/or holding some sort of position) - then I think it should be handled according to Scripture. One person should go to them in a loving manner and try to talk to them about what they're doing. If that doesn't work, then a couple of the elders should go to that person together - after praying for that person and the situation. If that doesn't work, then God's word says the person should be asked to leave. You shouldn't have someone in open rebellion as part of the church. It can cause division. That doesn't mean you stop ministering to them though. Elders should continue to visit and try to help them in any way. Be a true friend in their time of crisis - and pray that God helps them find their way back.
War is throughout the Bible. God has specifically asked for battles to be fought. That's one reason why I have a hard time with those who think it's against Christianity to fight. Our God is a Holy God of Justice. That means that He sometimes declares war on those He has decided to punish or to protect the innocent. There is nothing wrong with a Christian fighting in a war as long as he behaves honorably.
I don't think people are going to hell if they believe differently than me. I think people should look to the whole of the Bible and base their beliefs on that. I don't have a "Margaret" faith - or whatever my Pastor preaches. I look to the Bible. I also don't pull one or two verses out -- it's Genesis to Revelation. Context makes all the difference.
Hi Margaret,I agree that its Genesis to Revelations, but yes context is very important, as Adam supposedly wrote the original story of creation, we don't actually know what the word 'day' meant back then, apart from a span of time. For example, the Mayans believed in a seven day creation too but each day represented many thousands of years. As I said context is important, but it can also be lost through time, so it is important to be aware of the issues involved. Remember that God created our Universe, and so he would have created it to fit his future needs, so he will work within the rules of the Universe becuase the rules of the universe are his rules. So creation of the earth would have been within the laws of the universe, within the laws of God. Gods laws are written into the very existence of everything. We say that in the new convenant the rules are written in our hearts, but it is more true than people realise.... it is written in to the fabric of our atoms!
Context does make the difference. Fa. Peter Snow has written a novel of Jesus of Nazareth as being present in the experience of modern people, based on his insights and discoveries over the years. Reading his Jesus: Man Not Myth and watching his YouTube vids (15) have been a profound and present experience for me and others. Peter Snow
It's interesting that there's 3 ways God could handle the creation account in the Bible:Imagine getting to Heaven after dedicating your life to trusting the Bible as clearly as possible. So the conversation with God about science and creation could be very interesting:
1) God says to a Christian scientist:
"I guess you're right - My WORD was totally confusing. And since it didn't agree with science I can see why you didn't trust it literally."
2) God says to a Christian scientist:
"Why didn't you just believe it exactly as written? I made it as simple and clear as possible. Why must you people confuse everything?"
3) God says to a Christian scientist:
"You weren't meant to understand it fully. You are little morons with pathetically low intelligence - just be happy I bothered to tell you anything at all."
So whats the point of this exercise? God did indeed tell us some clear information about creating the cosmos. I think we can trust him. Even when many unbelieving scientists swear that it is just plain wrong.
I've read accounts by a few scientists who say the Bible is brilliantly accurate. I'll stick with them and the word of God.
If God gave us a lazy, poorly written, confusing, abstract, metaphorical written word then he's not a God we can really trust.
Is the Bible easy? NO. But it is accurate in a freaky brilliant sort of way. WE can trust him.
K wrote: "But that is just it, Janette, what makes your interpretation of the Bible right compared to others? So much division of the church comes from this problem."Here is the thing, I don't think My interpretation is always right. See I'm a sinner. If I can get away with it I can twist scripture to say what I want it to say. However, Like Valencia says I study Gods word with an attitude that I am a sinner & I have it all wrong & ask God to show me right. I don't automatically assume I must be right because I was raised in this church & we do that thing and this is what our denomination does. Anymore than I think you are wrong because you go to that church and do those things. That is why we have division in our churches - everyone wants to be right & everyone wants the other group to be wrong. Every denomination out there has to have some sort of false teaching in it. We will never find the perfect Christian church with the perfect amount of God's word in it until we are standing in the middle of Heaven. I learn something new about God's truth everyday by reading God's truth everyday - I get no part of God's truth by arguing church doctrine with anyone everyday.
Cesar wrote: "Hi Margaret,I agree that its Genesis to Revelations, but yes context is very important, as Adam supposedly wrote the original story of creation, we don't actually know what the word 'day' meant ba..."
Adam didn't write Genesis - Moses is credited with the first 5 books of the Bible - also known as the Pentateuch.
What so many people forget is that God actually literally spoke to Moses and some of the early prophets. I'm sure Moses got a very accurate accounting not just from what was passed down but from the Source.
Also there is a word used "yom" for day in the creation story in Genesis. The confusion comes because that word can mean: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural;
However, when you look at the passage in Genesis, it is pretty much always accompanied by a description of a single day - an evening and a morning, darkness and then light and so on - and then the next day of creation. If you accept the theory of time lasting a thousand or million years instead of one day . . . well then there would have had to have been a thousand years of darkness and then another of light and so on. Which just doesn't seem very practical to life of any kind developing, no matter what you believe.
I think it takes a lot less faith to believe that the day is simply a day - just like God wrote it.
Well said Margaret. Awesome!That was interesting Janette. Lately i've been telling people not to trust me - but to go read the Bible for themselves. :D
Janette wrote: "K wrote: "But that is just it, Janette, what makes your interpretation of the Bible right compared to others? So much division of the church comes from this problem."Here is the thing, I don't t..."
Janette, I totally agree with everything you wrote, I almost wrote something nearly identical to it but then erased it because I got the feeling anything I said was falling on deaf ears. I am not saying there isn't Truth or that the Bible isn't true, but rather we all read the Bible coming from different view points, that colors our opinions on what is truth. I use a little "t" to differentiate what I see as God's Truth and our truth, which pales in comparison.
Margaret wrote: "K wrote: "Rod, I think atheists and liberal Christians counter with these questions because there are a lot of whacky teachings out there. These people are quite adamant that their truth is Truth...."I agree with you that these aren't salvation issues, which to me means that they aren't Truth, they are truth. They are politics by religious names. And yes, context makes all the difference.
I remember being about 13 years old and hearing someone say, "those are Catholic Christians; they believe differently than us."
That got me started on my almost 30 year quest for truth. Truth either is or isn't. Does God want us to have actual truth about him? Many people would say "No, as long as we have faith."
So it took me years to figure out that finding truth means asking the right questions - and comparing.
I realized that either the Bible is 100% truthful or its a chaotic, lying, messy, rough draft of liberalism.
But it's not that simple. Truth must protect itself. IF the Bible is truth then God must be doing something to sustain it. Can there be truth within variety? Can 20 different translations of the Bible all be truthful? YES - if they are careful.
That was the easy part. The hard part is truth of Christian belief and behavior: like healings, tongues, prophecy, doctrine, denominations, God's personality, Jesus divinity etc.
AS a kid it was easy for me to see that many churches believe things that aren't really in the Bible. Catholic tradition is not in the Bible, many modern beliefs of evangelical Christians aren't really in the Bible either.
but then again; many Christians don't really think the Bible is all we need. We have 100's of modern revelations of God from all sorts of sources: people seeing angels, demons, Jesus, visits to Heaven/Hell, prophecy.
AS for me: the Bible is enough. WHat do you all think?