The Hamlet, by William Faulkner: August 2012

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

I read "The Hamlet" earlier in July, and got so caught up in the influx of Snopeses in Frenchman's Bend that I just gave up other reading and went straight on through the other 2 novels in the trilogy. I am halfway into "The Mansion" (#3). The more I read of Faulkner the more I am convinced of his genius. I'll save discussion until more people have had a chance to get into it..

[Christopher]

I just opened a present from myself to myself that I got in the mail: a three-volumed slipcased set of the Snopes Trilogy! And I got it for almost the same price as a new paperback version of The Hamlet! I'll start on it after I finish The Optimist's Daughter, which shouldn't take long at all.

[Jessie J]

Christopher wrote: "I just opened a present from myself to myself that I got in the mail: a three-volumed slipcased set of the Snopes Trilogy! And I got it for almost the same price as a new paperback version of The H..."

Christopher, when you said that, I thought I'd check the Kindle price, and you can get the Modern Library trilogy for the same price as "The Hamlet" standalone price ($11.99). Went ahead and bought it!

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

You are both wise to get the trilogy. When it comes to Snopeses, you can't read just one!

[Cyndee]

I agree with Diane. happy Reading it completely.

[Jessie J]

Working on "The Hamlet." I enjoy reading the Snopes works more than the others (from what I recall in college). I did notice that there's a little less of the stream of consciousness writing in "The Hamlet," so that might be it?

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Christopher wrote: "I just opened a present from myself to myself that I got in the mail: a three-volumed slipcased set of the Snopes Trilogy! And I got it for almost the same price as a new paperback version of The H..."

Congratulations on that fine present to yourself. That was a present I made myself several years back. It's a beautiful set. And, of course, each is a wonderful read. I wouldn't be surprised if you continued right on through the trilogy once you've read "The Hamlet."

Enjoy!
Mike
Lawyer Stevens

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Jessie wrote: "Working on "The Hamlet." I enjoy reading the Snopes works more than the others (from what I recall in college). I did notice that there's a little less of the stream of consciousness writing in "..."

It's really interesting that you say that. I also found Faulkner to become more and more accessible the longer he wrote. There is a definite change of style, I think. But then consider his short stories that appeared in "The Saturday Evening Post." Most accessible, early in his career. But Faulkner combined those short stories into much more complex works. I'm really interested to see how the discussion of "The Hamlet" develops. Keep us posted on your progress!

Mike
Lawyer Stevens, who shows up eventually in the Trilogy. *grin*

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Diane wrote: "You are both wise to get the trilogy. When it comes to Snopeses, you can't read just one!"

I agree, Diane. And those Snopeses bear watching. *ahem* Headed down to the drug store to have a strawberry ice cream with V.K. Ratliff.

Mike
Stevens

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

I want to officially recognize Wallstreet Panic Snopes as my favorite name for a fictional character ever. Whatever else the Snopes family has or does not have in the way of character, their Mama (which I guess in this case is Mr. Faulkner) sure knew how to name 'em. Mink, Flem, Ab......and Snopes as a surname suggests something that crawled up out of a hole in the ground.

[Thing Two]

I've just started The Hamlet and am laughing at the quirkiness of the characters. Having also finished The Optimist's Daughter, I liken Faulkner's characters to the Texas clan in Welty's book. There's definitely a class distinction being drawn, and it makes me wonder - are there other regional US works which draw such distinctions between the economic classes, or is it just Southern authors who make fun of their less-erudite neighbors? And then, are the characters portrayed in these books life-imitating-art or art-imitating-life? Which came first - the writing or the rednecks?

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

The Rednecks definitely came first, and authors, being the observant creatures they are, picked up on the advantages of using the characteristics of the type to enhance their tales. You couldn't have had "To Kill a Mockingbird" without the Ewells, or anything written by Erskine Caldwell or Rick Bragg, or practically any other southern author of note. For that matter, it's hard to find a southerner who isn't one himself, or comes from a family rife with them. I say this with affection, since, just like any separation of people into groups, there are shades and gradations of the type. With rednecks, there's "trashy" which no one wants to associate with, and "good ole boys and gals", which is something to be aspired to. And anyone who has grown up in the south knows which is which, without any explanation of the difference.
Faulkner was adept at portraying both types. But I think he would have put himself into the Southern Gentleman class.

[Larry]

Diane said: ..."good ole boys and gals", which is something to be aspired to ...

Having lived mostly up North I have always thought of good ole boys as "cronyism among men who have known each other for a long period of time." I have never heard of a good ole gal!

[Thing Two]

For that matter, it's hard to find a southerner who isn't one himself, or comes from a family rife with them.

But what is it about the South that generates a whole class of "others"? Is there another region in the US with such distinctions? I know we separate by ethnicity, but do we ever separate by class - not economic, but etiquette!

Faulkner was adept at portraying both types. But I think he would have put himself into the Southern Gentleman class.

Welty, too, would consider herself in the "Lady" class, as I'm sure would O'Connor, McCullers, Twain, and Chopin. Are there any old Southern writers NOT in this class? (Rick Bragg is too contemporary to count.)

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

And in England, there's the titled gentry and the Cockney, where both schooling and diction separate the two, along with people in between. Maybe Sophia could help us out with this one? Are there English "rednecks"?

[Jessie J]

As my daughter says, "there are rednecks everywhere." They are just called something else. I've always associated it with an economic class, myself, but that may just be part of the whole.

[Sophia]

Diane wrote: "And in England, there's the titled gentry and the Cockney, where both schooling and diction separate the two, along with people in between. Maybe Sophia could help us out with this one? Are there English "rednecks"

The links between schooling and diction grow ever more tenuous. Whether or not you go to a public (fee paying school) has less and less to do with class (and how you sound) and increasingly more to do with how much money you've got. In fact these days a ‘posh’ voice isn’t necessarily a good thing.

We still have a North/South divide, but there are some very wealthy people in the north just as there are poor people in the south.

So, rednecks in the UK tend to be poor and working-class (and more likely to be northerners), but not necessarily...

[Randall]

Class is rife in New England. I don't know about any portaits of such in novels, but there is this ditty I remember from a Pete Seeger song (sorry, I can't remember which):

Welcome to Boston,
The land of the bean and the cod.
Where the Lodges only speak to the Cabots,
And the Cabots only speak to God.

[Sophia]

The original quote is from the song written by Arthur J. Marsh (1895-1966) adopted as the State Song on 9/3/1966

[Zorro]

Remember this?

The Long Hot Summer (1958)

Storyline
Ben Quick arrives in Frenchman's Bend, MS after being kicked out of another town for allegedly burning a barn for revenge. Will Varner owns just about everything in Frenchman's Bend and he hires Ben to work in his store. Will thinks his own son, Jody, who manages the store, lacks ambition and despairs of him getting his wife, Eula, pregnant. Will thinks his daughter, Clara, a schoolteacher, will never get married. He decides that Ben Quick might make a good husband for Clara to bring some new blood into the family.

Paul Newman ... Ben Quick (Flem Snopes)
Joanne Woodward ... Clara Varner
Anthony Franciosa ... Jody Varner
Orson Welles ... Will Varner
Lee Remick ... Eula Varner
Angela Lansbury ... Minnie Littlejohn
Richard Anderson... Alan Stewart
Sarah Marshall ... Agnes Stewart
Mabel Albertson ... Elizabeth Stewart
J. Pat O'Malley ... Ratliff

[Zorro]

Will someone please help me understand the end of book two?(p. 141-145 in my book) (in italics)

THE HAMLET Book 2 Eula Ch. 2.

[Thing Two]

Zorro wrote: "Will someone please help me understand the end of book two?(p. 141-145 in my book) (in italics)"

It's Faulkner.

[Zorro]

That really helps to get this discussion moving along!

[Zorro]

Zorro wrote: "Will someone please help me understand the end of book two?(p. 141-145 in my book) (in italics)

THE HAMLET Book 2 Eula Ch. 2."

Wikipedia says that this section is:

"Ratliff's fantastic allegory of the Flem's sale of his soul."

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

Zorro, sometimes you don't know what's happening in Faulkner until much later in the book, or even in another book that follows. Don't try to make sense of it, just go with the flow.

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Zorro, for what it is worth, here is my interpretation of the last italicized portion of Book Two of "The Hamlet."

This is an allusion to Faust told by V.K. Ratliff. Flem Snopes is the equivalent of Faust selling his soul to the devil, or the Prince of Darkness. Flem is selling his soul by marrying Eula a woman whom he knows is pregnant with another man's child. Flem will do whatever is necessary to improve his position, his ultimate goal to gain respectability in the community. You will see Flem's actions continue through the end of the Hamlet and further in the final two volumes of the Snopes trilogy. Just who is the Prince in this section? Logically, it could be Jody Varner, for he indicates he's going to show the old man, Will Varner how you handle these matters. But on a broader range, almost all of the inhabitants of Frenchman's Bend are looking to get the best part of the bargain. Perhaps the Prince is the entire Hamlet. I hope this helps somewhat. That's what it meant to me. See The Hamlet: A Concordance To The Novel by Noel Polk.

Mike

[Zorro]

Hey! a Concordance! Now that would be helpful.

I read The Sound and the Fury, As I Lay Dying, and A Light in August with Oprah, and she had experts on video to help with this kind of questions. But I could use a concordance for sure.

[Zorro]

Thank you both.

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Zorro wrote: "Hey! a Concordance! Now that would be helpful.

I read The Sound and the Fury, As I Lay Dying, and A Light in August with Oprah, and she had experts on video to help with this kind of questions. ..."

Zorro wrote: "Hey! a Concordance! Now that would be helpful.

I read The Sound and the Fury, As I Lay Dying, and A Light in August with Oprah, and she had experts on video to help with this kind of questions. ..."

There's a ton of Faulkner reference materials out there. I like Polk. He is the editor for all of Faulkner's works in the Library of America. I have access to our State's Virtual Public Library through our public library. It's helpful!

Mike

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Zorro wrote: "Thank you both."

Everitt wrote: "Mike,

Thanks so very much for helping Zorro out. Sorry I wasn't able to be of more assistance on this one yet."

Aw, shucks. T'weren't nuthin'.

Mike
V.K. Ratliff, stepping in for Lawyer Stevens

[Zorro]

I have just finished reading about the poor kid who was in love with the cow. I don't know which is worse - poor ole Lester Ballard and the dead women in Child of God (which I also just finished reading a few days ago) or this poor boy.

I can really see Faulkner's influence on Cormac McCarthy in his beautiful descriptions of the country-side and the sympathy that they both inspire in the reader for these grotesque characters.

[Sue]

I'm not sure who/where it was discussed but thanks for the mention of the kindle Snopes Trilogy. I had a copy of The Hamlet from the library, complete with yellowed pages and small, very black print that was making my eyes hurt. Sampled the trilogy and downloaded it. Much more comfortable!! and now I can read the other books too.

As for the reading, I'd forgotten how dense the reading can be, the words and words flowing along and pulling me with it. Haven't read Faulkner for years (maybe since just after college).

[Zorro]

I have all three books in one on the kindle as well, and I am so glad that I can enlarge the print.

[Sue]

Zorro wrote: "I have all three books in one on the kindle as well, and I am so glad that I can enlarge the print."

It's great, isn't it. (and adjust the background color, etc). so nice for the eyes. I can now get into the flow of the book much easier. And I liked the introduction too.

[Zorro]

Is there a church in The Hamlet?

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Ah! Now that you mention it, I don't believe there is. And it's a long way to Jefferson. Of course, Faulkner wasn't much of a church goer himself. He did get married in College Hills Presbyterian Church in Oxford.

[Zorro]

Community/church is pretty important in the south...I wonder about lack of spiritual life and the attitudes of the people in these families.

[Zorro]

I went back and did a kindle search. Yes, there is a church owned by Will Varner.

[Sue]

I'm near the beginning and seem to recall an early mention of Flem going to church on a Sunday during the respectability days (that little black tie) once he lived in town.

[Zorro]

In your part of the South, do you call a store, a church, a school, and a blacksmith shop, with a few houses around them, a hamlet? I have never heard 'hamlet' used in Texas.

[Jeffrey]

I have finished The Hamlet. What a great ride. Much more accessible than the masterpiece Absalom, Absalom!. If you have struggled with other Faulkner's this is a great place to start. Like Diane, I will be reading the other two books in the trilogy fairly soon. If any one is interested I have posted my review http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

[Diane, "Miss Scarlett"]

Zorro, I am from a tiny little place in NC called Catsburg. There was a store and a church, and everyone there was related in one way or another, but I never heard it called a hamlet. Maybe that's a Mississippi term.

[Jessie J]

Zorro wrote: "In your part of the South, do you call a store, a church, a school, and a blacksmith shop, with a few houses around them, a hamlet? I have never heard 'hamlet' used in Texas."

I don't think it is referencing any Southern term. By definition, that's what the place is. I'm not a Faulkner scholar, but one of the experts on here may be able to put their finger on a specific meaning for the reference (the medieval/primitive nature of the settlement perhaps?. Titles are generally there for a purpose.

[Zorro]

Jessie wrote: "Titles are generally there for a purpose. "

Yes, Jessie, and this is exactly why I wanted to discuss Faulkner's use of 'hamlet' as the title.

What a sad place this hamlet is to call 'home'. The "self-defining", "self evident" nature of 'home' = hamlet used for Frenchman's Bend speaks volumes about what these people are missing in their lives.

[Jessie J]

Everitt wrote: "When I get stuck on a word I tend to go back to one of my old weird hobbies: etymology.

Words represent ideas and by looking at the historical transformations of a word we can sometimes understan..."

I knew one of you would find a great explanation. I like it.

[Sue]

Just finished The Hamlet portion of the trilogy today. Aside from a portion of Eula's chapter that I found a bit unfathomable, I really enjoyed this book, with Faulkner's creative use of language and construction, the apparently highly fertile and seemingly without scruples Snopes clan, so many features. i'm looking forward to returning to complete the trilogy after I read the September books.

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Sue wrote: "Just finished The Hamlet portion of the trilogy today. Aside from a portion of Eula's chapter that I found a bit unfathomable, I really enjoyed this book, with Faulkner's creative use of language a..."

You're going to love the other two volumes. Lawyer Gavin Stevens joins the cast.

Mike

[Sue]

I look forward to meeting him Mike -- and learning why he became your alter ego.

[Thing Two]

Finally getting around to writing my review. Even though I nominated this, it wasn't my favorite. I enjoy Faulkner in small bursts.

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

[Lawyer, "Moderator Emeritus"]

Sue wrote: "I look forward to meeting him Mike -- and learning why he became your alter ego."

I suppose poor Lawyer Stevens needed a better agent than Atticus Finch. He's overlooked as a legal literary character. *smile* And, of course, his nephew Chick Mallison can never measure up to Jem and Scout.

However, Gavin Stevens had a number of things to say as a lawyer that are, in my opinion, as important as some of Atticus' musings. My favorite:

“Some things you must always be unable to bear. Some things you must never stop refusing to bear. Injustice and outrage and dishonor and shame. No matter how young you are or how old you have got. Not for kudos and not for cash: your picture in the paper nor money in the bank either. Just refuse to bear them.”
― spoken by Gavin Stevens, Intruder in the Dust

That quote has been heard by more than one jury during my years as an Assistant District Attorney. It earned me the epithet of "a shade tree philosophizin' guv'ment attorney" from an older and considerably jaded defense attorney. I often wished to have that title cross stitched and framed.

I figured Mr. Faulkner wouldn't mind. He might even haven given a wry laugh at the thought.

I suppose there can only be one Atticus Finch, though so many lawyers aspire to his lofty status. But the world is likely to find more Gavin Stevens. And that is how I chose him as my alter ego.

Mike
Lawyer Stevens