The Sword and Laser discussion
This topic is about
Assassin's Apprentice
2012 Reads
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AA: Negative Review. Fair Warning.
A guildmate from WoW told me about Robin Hobb's books years ago and I only got around to trying them last fall. The writing was a little odd at first but I fell in love with the characters so the writing style was forgivable.I hope no one is discouraged from reading it because of this thread. Get to know Fitz and these books will keep you up all night reading. I'm holding back from reading the last book in the Tawny Man trilogy because I don't want the story to end.
If you bought it on Kindle you can return it within 7 days and get your money back. If a book doesn't grab me right away I put it on my To Read shelf so I can try it again someday.
Just a comment about "lem" threads in general. I'm not sure why a new thread has to be started. Why not wait for a main discussion thread, post your ideas and generate comments within the main thread?
Ctgt wrote: "Just a comment about "lem" threads in general. I'm not sure why a new thread has to be started. Why not wait for a main discussion thread, post your ideas and generate comments within the main thread?"This is my main point of critique. As I tried to point out there are a lot of ways to think of a question that still brings up why you didn't read a book but doesn't simply revolve around this one thing.
In this case you could have asked:
"I started to read this book, but the first two paragraphs annoy me to no end, so I decided to quit it. Did anyone else feel the same way? What are your feelings about this style of writing?"
-or-
"I started to read this book, but the first two paragraphs annoy me to no end, so I decided to quit it. What are your personal pet peeves that you find so unforgivable that you might immediately stop reading a book?"
-or-
"I started to read this book, but the first two paragraphs annoy me to no end, so I decided to quit it. How much time to you usually give a book before you decide you're done with it? Is one page enough? Ten? Fifty? Should I read further?"
-or-
"I started to read this book, but the first two paragraphs annoy me to no end, so I decided to quit it. Does it get better and would you say that I should give it another chance?"
So there. Four different angles from which to attach the particular issue Darren had that might lead to tons of useful and fun discussions. Instead it read like a cranky statement of personal discontent with a header (now changed) that basically accused the other members of the forums (or at least some of them) of being an "Enforced Positivity Police".
I know it's easy to read something into internet posts that wasn't intended, but the tone to me sounded rude and condescending and there didn't seem to be any desire for an interesting discusssion implied.
Since when is the Microsoft Word grammar checker the pinacle of book criticism? She writes in the passive voice --- so what?
Mike wrote: "Since when is the Microsoft Word grammar checker the pinacle of book criticism? She writes in the passive voice --- so what?"Sometimes I want a +1 or Like button for Goodreads. This is such a time.
I found the language to be old fashioned at times, but to me that just goes along with the semi-medieval setting of the story. In fact, as I started to read it I found it a refreshing change of pace from the books I've been reading lately, which have had a more modern voice. So for me, the voice that Hobb chose to use really helped set the stage even further in terms of the feel of the time period, and gave me an idea of what to expect in the world she was creating.
Darren wrote: "3) You really think I should rather have derailed a thread of people sharing their enjoyment of the book with my review? I thought starting a new thread which made it clear it was not favourable to the book would allow people who wished to avoid such things the opportunity to avoid them."While I understand what you were trying to do, I much prefer a discussion that encompasses both positive and negative. There have been several posts in this thread that would have really added to the overall discussion but now may have been lost amidst the "chaff". For me, a completely positive discussion is just as useless as a completely negative discussion.
Jazon wrote: "Internet Trolls become Twitter Gangsta's if you feed them after midnight"Eek.
But Casey... I can't sing on key!!!/rebel
Casey wrote: "Come on damn it – lets all sing Kumbaya and get along.http://youtu.be/p3MiD_U4CHQ"
I half expected a rick roll.
http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ
Rick wrote: "But Casey... I can't sing on key!!!/rebel"
No worries, just sway to the rhythm and snap your fingers from time to time and a high groovy-factor will be obtained.
Nick wrote: "Casey wrote: "Come on damn it – lets all sing Kumbaya and get along.http://youtu.be/p3MiD_U4CHQ"
I half expected a rick roll.
http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ"
I'll be honest; I don't really understand the whole rick roll thing... I feel out of touch with this aspect of social behavior :)
Darren, When you say ...You really think I should rather have derailed a thread of people sharing their enjoyment of the book with my review?...it feels like you're missing a point that several people have made. You might be dodging this deliberately in which case I'm wasting my time, but in case not...
A negative review or comment about a book by someone who's read it or read a substantial portion of it is, I think, 100% fine and isn't even derailing. When done well, negative reviews illuminate the discussion just as much as positive ones. However, you didn't write a review. You can't. You read ONE page. You can't say anything about the plot, character, world-building or even, really, the writing throughout the book since you read so little of it. That's what rubbed people the wrong way.
It's a conundrum - if a book thoroughly annoys someone and does so early on, how do they express that? Some would say "Just move on, say nothing" but who knows... maybe what annoys that person about a book will piss off a substantial minority of others too. However, I think a reviewer still has to realize that their opinion will likely be dismissed if their comments are based on a single page or some very short number of pages. This brings up the 'how much do I need to read in order not to be subject to this criticism' question. Honestly, for me, it's about 100 pages but I kind of like the idea that if you've read the free Kindle sample, that's enough for the most part (the exception being a super-short sample). If someone has read that much and the tone really grates I think it's fine to comment then. After all, there's giving a book a fair chance and then there's masochism.
Finally, my first comment here was in reply to someone - I wasn't commenting just to pile on; I wanted to note that some of the early comments were reacting in part to a very different thread title that colored those comments.
Casey wrote: "Nick wrote: "Casey wrote: "Come on damn it – lets all sing Kumbaya and get along.http://youtu.be/p3MiD_U4CHQ"
I half expected a rick roll.
http://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ"
I'll be honest; I don't re..."
it's a common thing for video uploader to upload tempting videos or flash animations, but when you play them you get rick astley's " never gonna give you up"
just to make sure the song we sing have a S&L accent here goes http://youtu.be/FmwViE4YKLU
@Kamil - Wow, that's both hilarious and disturbing... I am afraid this has affected my thoughts for the remainder of the day. Very awesome, thank you!I understand what a "rick roll" is, I just don't understand why it is funny.
This is more my speed:
http://youtu.be/mWBvcJAXwu4
I've already finished this book. It took me a grand total of three days.I really loved the read. And it has made me seek out her other stuff.
So thanks for the adventure!
Im going to restate this because there is a point being missed.I don't give a flying crap if he read the first sentence and "lemmed" it and thought it was horrid.
I have a serious issue with the idiocy,and the bad (edited by me to prevent hard feelings)behavior of RATING A BOOK ONE STAR that was admittedly not even began. I think we are entrusted with a faith that we are bringing honesty and a certain set of ideals to people who are sincerely interested in knowing the facts before they dedicate some hours of their life to a book.
When someone outwardly admits they rated a book without reading even a portion of they should not have the right to rate books as it taints the whole concept.
So shoot me I have very strong morals.
I thought a place like goodreads with well-read and intelligent people populating its numbers would be a haven from and a step above the crap you get from 14 year old fan boys on a video game site. It appears though The internet as a whole is the new bridges and roach motels for trolls and things that skitter in the dark anonymity of the net without any accountability.
Integrity, it used to have a meaning now it just takes up space in the dictionary.
Paul wrote: "I have a serious issue with the idiocy,and the douche like behavior of RATING A BOOK ONE STAR that was admittedly not even began."a little harsh there man. A little harsh.
Micah wrote: "Paul wrote: "I have a serious issue with the idiocy,and the douche like behavior of RATING A BOOK ONE STAR that was admittedly not even began."a little harsh there man. A little harsh."
Well my apologies if that is so but it seems that to be heard you need to yell. Part of my training as it were. When you get someones attention they are more willing to hear the meat of what you have to say.
Notice I did not insult a person only a behavior that some people tend have ...in general. I'm sure Darren is a wonderful person and has just brought a problematic issue to light so thank you Darren. I would love to buy you a coffee sometime (my treat) and get your thoughts on this and other points of integrity and ethics.
Jazon wrote: "Fire!!! Fire in the building!!! Everybody run!!!"Hey, now! That behaviour is illegal in the theater... of my mind, where you all live.
This thread will now be summed up. By only reading one page, someone quit. A one star rating was given, which is, honestly, a bigger troll move than posting this thread. Reviews are based on the tacit understanding of the entire book. The point of this thread was to start a fight, it seems. The mission, was therefore accomplished.
That was passive voice, brah.
The real problem here is that a real, critical reviewer will NEVER Lem a book. Chuck it in a fireplace and be morally outraged like Ben Kenobi did to his apprentice Anakin, sure. But a real reviewer won't talk about how mind meltingly bad a book like Mr. Darcy, Vampyre is if he or she throws it to the ground even three quarters of the way in. At least, not if he or she wants to discuss it in a literary circle. Unless it's Sword of Shananahahaha
, because the literary merits of the first sentence of that book alone was the subject of one of my 400 level grammar classes back in the 90's. We mapped that first sentence on the blackboard for about three hours before the professor begged for mercy and we tried to do one from The Hound of the Baskervilles instead. On a final note, thanks for making me have to read this book pick now. Yes, I have been drinking Dr. Pepper and Seagrams 7. It was from a convention back in February. I'm going to go sit down now.
Jim wrote: "Jazon wrote: "Fire!!! Fire in the building!!! Everybody run!!!"Hey, now! That behaviour is illegal in the theater... of my mind, where you all live.
This thread will now be summed up. By only r..."
Thank you I enjoyed that...Dr. Pepper and Seagrams? Have to try that...
Paul wrote: "Well my apologies if that is so but it seems that to be heard you need to yell. Part of my training as it were. When you get someones attention they are more willing to hear the meat of what you have to say."And here I have been going through life learning and living the exact opposite.
Paul wrote: "Jim wrote: "Jazon wrote: "Fire!!! Fire in the building!!! Everybody run!!!"If you get the mix right, you almost can't taste it. And the mix is usually to drink about a quarter liter of the 2L bottle and then refill that with the Seagrams. Stir. do not shake, for obvious reasons.
Ooops, Im being Cypherpunk, sorry about just jacking the thread.
Micah wrote: "Paul wrote: "Well my apologies if that is so but it seems that to be heard you need to yell. Part of my training as it were. When you get someones attention they are more willing to hear the meat o..."Micah: "And here I have been going through life learning and living the exact opposite. "
Well then I guess drill sergeants owe ALOT of apologies.
I was constantly told differently for the first 30 years of my life as well but reality is something different then proverb.
We need to Lem more creatively or this is just going to get boring. I'm going to read the entire book except for the last word. And then I'm never going to let you guys forget it.
@darren, I think I skipped the first chapter of the book, or read quickly through it. I don't remember any of that. The actual story is really good, and I'm sorry that you're missing out on it. The first chapter, basically the prologue, is written far differently from the rest of the book.
I finished the book. I found Fitz annoying and sort of a crap magnet. I wish there was more on the Fool; he was my favorite.
Darren wrote: "@Paul Any book written poorly enough that one can't even make it through a single page without cringing is pretty much a prime candidate for one star. I can't imagine giving such a low rating to an..."See I was worried at the first couple of pages myself but Im glad I continued as I ended up loving the story (80% through) I looked at some of the stuff on your read list (ive never had the time to complete mine here :)) and you taste isnt that far off from mine to be honest. Love the great comic guys, The Bard :), Naomi Novik, and on, even dying to get to joe Hill's Novels since I love Locke & Key (even have the card game) so its too bad you didnt see where it went.
I'm glad you did respond though, I suggest you give it another shot even if its just conditional 50pages or whatever just so you can see that the style you read isnt the norm for the book.
Mike wrote: "I finished the book. I found Fitz annoying and sort of a crap magnet. I wish there was more on the Fool; he was my favorite."There is a whole series on the Fool :) Fool's Errand, Golden Fool and Fool's Fate. A very interesting character! You probably do need to read the rest of this series first though, as it's a continuing story.
The fool is the only person that shows up in all of The Realm of the Elderlings novels, which all of her books, but the Soldier and Son Trilogy.
Kevin wrote: "The fool is the only person that shows up in all of The Realm of the Elderlings novels, which all of her books, but the Soldier and Son Trilogy."minus Rainwilds Chronicles
"Any book written poorly enough that one can't even make it through a single page without cringing is pretty much a prime candidate for one star.Let me rephrase that for you:
"Any reader so intolerant that they can't read more than one page of a book is pretty much a prime candidate for the label of troll"
You continue to ignore that you didn't review the book because you didn't read any of it. You'd have some credibility if you'd said this after reading ~50 pages or so, but 1? You're a troll.
AS to Paul's point - when reviewing a book on a site like this I think people should keep in mind that they're part of a community and that their reviews are relied upon by others. However, sadly, trollish, snarky reviews like this get attention. I was reading another review of this book which was also negative... and only in the comments did the reviewer admit she'd not read more than a couple of chapters. To me, that's breaking faith with the people who are reading your review as an opinion on the book unless you clearly state early on that you only read to point X in the book.
Darren wrote: "I lemmed this already. I started in on it this morning, and the first thing I start asking myself: "Is she seriously writing in the passive voice?" The answer was, yes. The first page should be t..."
I read through about half the comments and honestly didn't care about any of them. Everyone has their opinion and I have nothing to say for or against any of them. Everyone has their opinion and trying to shot down or talk up any of them is moot in my opinion.
This comment is directed toward the original post that started all of this.
I think you are entitled to your opinion and in fact I won't try telling you that it was amazing because I haven't even gotten it yet. I do think that giving it a little more time is fair, but if you have to muscle trough it then hey it's not for you. There are plenty of books that grated on me because I didn't enjoy the writing style much. Maybe I'm not justified in forcing myself to finish books I don't like. Nothing wrong with either.
My only issue is calling it a review. To me that says you read the WHOLE thing and your review of it is that you didn't like it. I don't think one page can really be considered a review.
If anything this thread has just pushed me to try it out even more now. I'm curious to see your points about the first pages and curious to see if I'll enjoy it. Which I'm sure your voicing your opinion was not at all to try to persuade people against reading it. All in all I see no harm from your opinion.
the passive tense might not appeal to many but it's somehow a necessity, since the main hero, the one the whole trilogy focuses on is Fitz and we only get to read his POV but at times he's conciousness isn't ellaborate enough to form thoughts and the word must be seen thgrough the prism of what happens to our adorable ass's app.
Tenses have active forms and passive forms.Passive and active are not in themselves tenses.
I have no problem with people forming an opinion of a book within a paragraphs. I am upset by the poor grasp of grammar on display in this thread.
haven't had a chance to start this book yet, but with all the defense of it...I can't wait to start. So apparently the troll/negative/trash talking post has had the opposite affect on me. Of course people can't skip this thread. It's like watching soaps...only for sci fi and fantasy fans.
Kate wrote: "Tenses have active forms and passive forms.Passive and active are not, in themselves, tenses.
I have no problem with people forming an opinion of a book within a paragraph. I am upset by the poor grasp of grammar on display in this thread."
FTFY :P
Valerie wrote: "haven't had a chance to start this book yet, but with all the defense of it...I can't wait to start. So apparently the troll/negative/trash talking post has had the opposite affect on me. Of cou..."Finished today (four days read) loved it for its great storytelling and the way the writing so easily became imagery and feeling for me...not much action a lot of everything else you read for though.
Kate wrote: "Tenses have active forms and passive forms.Passive and active are not in themselves tenses.
I have no problem with people forming an opinion of a book within a paragraphs. I am upset by the poor g..."
Our deepest apologies for upsetting you with this most grievous of offense, but I think your ire is best served on those who have not read anything that did not have a Kardashian or Snooki on the cover instead of people long removed from High School English but are still making an honest attempt to enjoy literary endeavors irregardless...
In other words PLLLLTTTTTTT to grammar police :D
regardless. not irregardless.prefix ir- means "not" (as it does with irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without", the word irregardless could therefore be expected to have the meaning "in regards to", instead of being merely a synonym of regardless.
Samurisloth wrote: "regardless. not irregardless.prefix ir- means "not" (as it does with irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without", the word irregardless could therefore be expected to have the meaning "in..."
Irregardless is an informal term commonly used in place of regardless or irrespective, which has caused controversy since the early twentieth century, though the word appeared in print as early as 1795.
The origin of irregardless is not known for certain, but the speculation among references is that it may be a blend, or portmanteau word, of irrespective and regardless, both of which are commonly accepted standard English words.
The usage dispute over irregardless was such that, in 1923, Literary Digest published an article titled "Is There Such a Word as Irregardless in the English Language?". The OED goes on to explain the word is primarily a North American colloquialism.
LOOK AT ME I CAN WIKI TOO!
What so colloquialisms are allowed now?"Irregardless" is stupid, you're adding two superfluous letters to a word to give no additional meaning.
What’s wrong with looking up facts in Wikipedia?
Go on say nauseous when you mean nauseated, write ax when you mean axe, hell write reading "reeding" and colour "color" and aeroplane "airplane"
If you abuse our language too much, eventually we wont be able to understand each other.
Wow, over 2 letters that are even acceptable language and has been used since 1795...we went from grammar police to grammar Nazi in a flash. Save your nausea for people that "text speak" or use made up Ebonics words not someone who used an acceptable colloquialism while making a statement that was in jest in the first place.The word has been around longer that any of us have save your fervor and fury for a worthy battle you have nary a beach to defend here my well intentioned but Quixotic friend.
P.S.
Colour was the original Spelling only is US is it different from the rest of the English speaking world.
and Ax is acceptable spelling
I hate it when people argue over grammer and spelling. I Love reading and putting my opinion across but i am some what rubbish at grammer! Then people moan and i feel like i shouldn't join in because of it.
I'm no fan of censorship but if there was ever a thread that deserved to be shoved down a supermassive black hole or fired into the heart of a red giant and then completely erased from memory Total Recall or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind style, it's this one. Yuck people, just... yuck.
Firstly let me say that in the title it states that this is a negative review, well i wouldn't call reading a page and lemming a book a "review" at all. Just because you're uninterested in reading this months pick doesn't mean we need a "what a terrible book thread', when in fact you haven't even read it. I would find it much more constructive to hear a negative review from someone with a keen critical eye,who actually read the entire book.
I myself will not be reading this months pick, but I have no need to start a thread about that fact. I just was not interested and have plenty other reading to catch up on. But that's the beauty of this book club isn't it? You simply do not have to read the book if you don't care for it. I just don't find it constructive to talk about how much you don't want to read it based on a first page. People really want to discuss the actual contents of the book good and bad.
I just would rather choose to read a book based on actual reviews not disinterested readers. "I read the back flap so I think this book suks!" I think not. I think we need to stick to threads that actually have constructive elements. Blatant unjustified negativity is in a word LAME.
Kirsten wrote: "Mike wrote: "I wish there was more on the Fool; he was my favorite."There is a whole series on the Fool :) Fool's Errand, ..."
Thanks for that comment Kirsten. I read Assassin's Apprentice when it first came out and never got back to any of the other books. I've just finished it again on Kindle and have been tossing up whether to get into the sequels. Much more likely to now.
The Sword and Laser
Books mentioned in this topic
Fool's Errand (other topics)Golden Fool (other topics)
Fool's Fate (other topics)
Mr. Darcy, Vampyre (other topics)
The Sword of Shannara (other topics)
More...
http://youtu.be/ICnlyNUt_0o ?