The Sword and Laser discussion
What type of scenes you like to write
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I've never given any thought to "what" sort of scene I like to write the best... I suppose I most enjoy writing scenes that engage the landscape, that bring out the cold deep green of fast moving water under wind-torn cedars. A scene that brings the environment and character to a point where they interact on a level and in ways that most people might not think of.
Thaddeus wrote: "I have to admit, I do enjoy writing scenes with combat in them,"Ha, combat scenes are the worse for me. I'm on the second draft of a story, and in the first draft I pretty much just wrote 'and then there was a battle, and after that...' knowing I would have to go back and write it properly later. I dread doing so, and am sorely tempted to skip it, but a part of me feels like is really does need to be seen, at least a little bit.
For me, I love writing beginnings. These are the things which spring to my mind from sources unknown an entice me by hinting at stories I haven't yet fully conceived. There is so much potential in beginnings, before you have to work out all the nitty gritty details, when they are just a pretty piece of prose with sprinklings of intriguing ideas here and there; where you can create a setting or a character without having to obsess over the rules. I have folders full of beginnings, and so many delight me whenever I read them, forcing me to try and imagine a story deserving of them; curse my lack of skill! I also tend to write and re-write beginnings far too much when I do intend to develop my ideas into something greater. Even my essays for uni have winning introductions if not a lot else to recommend them, which I'm sure frustrates the poor people who have to read them. If only a good beginning was enough. *sigh*
To paraphrase Hannibal, I love it when a plot comes together.Seriously, after all the set-up, getting characters in the right place at the right time so that things can fall apart just so... it's the greatest thing in the world.
Of course, my typical novel planning revolves around knowing what the big scenes are going to be and writing the rest of the book to get there. It doesn't matter if it's revealing that character-defining bit of back-story, a desperate fight amidst the burnt ruins of a city, or a sultry romp through a little bedroom seduction; I know that the buildup was on the money when I find myself unable to stop writing until the scene is done.
I have an unhealthy love of footnotes. Whether they are being employed in an absurd, humorous sort of way, or just being used for asides or background information, I love reading them and I love writing them. I just started over a project I realized had to be in first person rather than third, and I had to get rid of the footnotes. It's so much more difficult to move forward, even though I know it was necessary.
I like writing set pieces; a scene where two players interact or something that moves the plot forwards. My novel started life as a whole string of these set piece scenes that I had to somehow link together.
Okay, okay, I'm going to sound 13, but I like writing sex scenes. Not for the sex, exactly. I think characters tell you a lot about themselves and their relationships by how they act when their inhibitions are down. Maybe that's the appeal of combat as well?But hardly anyone gets to read these. :)
I'm currently working on a novel called "649 shades of Ash", and it has to do with a young man who has to "catch" every girl in his college. It happens to resemble a certain kids game involving balls and monsters or something. The one thing I have learned how to do is writing sex scenes from the perspective of a 40 something who remembers doing it once in his 20s. Poorly defined metaphors and descriptions that defy logic are my favorite scene. Actually, no... I'm not doing that at all. Not even a pentology with 151 scenes in the first book. Nope.
Jenny wrote: "Okay, okay, I'm going to sound 13,"Haha, not to me it doesn't! I wasn't all that keen on writing sex scenes when I was 13; they made me blush!
But I definitely see what you mean, especially when it comes to guarded characters - you can show a side to them they would seldom otherwise reveal.
As I mentioned, I do enjoy writing fight scenes. Perhaps all that geeky role-playing I've done where I was the DM and had to choreograph the game.My first published novel got it's genesis from a random scene I put down on paper when I was stuck working on a 200k word "master piece". It was a scene with a young woman in a public house who was alone and in hiding. In trying to protect a barmaid, she ended up having to fighting her way out of the building. Being that she was a witch (a burning offense), she was reluctantly able to do that.
I found I liked the character so much that I had to figure out who she was. Eventually, I put down the "master piece" and wrote a novel with her story (Mother's Curse). The scene ended up in the final cut with a few modification.
However, all the talk of sex scenes now has me distracted...
Little character bits. Small moments of kindness. Any scene that leads up to a hug is pretty good.Fight scenes are fun too, especially if there's a lot of reversal and counter-reversal and so on. I like managing the flow of battle and figuring out the best way to show that.
Anything fast paced can be a challenge to write. Especially when there are multiple people in play.I don't like it when the same scene is retold from different points of view, especially when it is done for several people.
For me, I will include little bits of action that different people are performing, but shorten those sentence for pacing (as if the person with POV might have been looking around). I try to keep the POV mainly from one character, possibly using longer sentences and paragraphs for that person's time (giving emphasis to their actions.)
In the end, I think it comes out a bit of less is more. If I can't get some description in directly, I might hint at what occurred or working something into dialogue later. Perhaps someone was injured and will get a chance to make a comment about how they got the gash in their leg. Or someone might brag at the fire about how they dodged three sword thrusts and danced around their opponent.
If I can't get the description in somehow, I just leave the extra bits out of the story and to the reader's imagination.
Of course, that's just my current style (which grows over time as I find more things that work).
Dialogue.I love writing dialogue. Rapid fire exchanges between to people who sling barbs. I know Gilmore Girls isn't the most popular of shows in some areas but I loved the rapid fire exchanges. I love Joss Whedon's dialogue (and song writing). I love when two characters of mine get into it in a way that I stop listing who's talking and I just let them go back and forth.
As to sex.... I can write it but I much prefer to write the before and afters, those moments where you do see how someone reacts to waking up in bed with someone they're not sure they wanted to.
Lastly I'm really coming to like doing moments of internal dialogue. I was just getting the hang of it with FantastiCon but with my web novel I think I'm starting to delve into it in a way that works. Not the "I should get a beer, she said to herself." that I would written 10 years ago, but where the prose is just what she's thinking as she goes along. I'm finding that style creeping into my other work as well.
Rob wrote: "I love writing dialogue. Rapid fire exchanges between to people who sling barbs. I know Gilmore Girls isn't the most popular of shows in some areas but I loved the rapid fire exchanges. I love Joss Whedon's dialogue (and song writing). I love when two characters of mine get into it in a way that I stop listing who's talking and I just let them go back and forth."
Have you seen any Aaron Sorkin shows like the West Wing? He's a king at this too. You can always tell which episodes of Gilmore Girls are written by Dan Palladino instead of Amy Sherman, because they don't have that feeling to them.
Rob wrote: "Dialogue.I love writing dialogue. Rapid fire exchanges between to people who sling barbs. I know Gilmore Girls isn't the most popular of shows in some areas but I loved the rapid fire exchanges..."
Writing funny, back and forth dialogues that achieve Gilmoreness (or Whedonness) is a ton of fun for me as well- the only problem I have is finding a balance in tone between the fun dialogue and the serious context. Like, one of the most brilliant things about the Scoobies is that they continue being these hilariously witty/entertaining people even under extremely dire circumstances. Somehow even when the dialogue is light the show can get very dark....and finding that balance is a struggle.
Yup. Dialogue. I love writing dialogue. In fact, when I'm stuck, I find the best solution it to get two characters talking and let them figure out where the story should go.
Jenny wrote: Have you seen any Aaron Sorkin shows like the West Wing? He's a king at this too. You can always tell which episodes of Gilmore Girls are written by Dan Palladino instead of Amy Sherman, because they don't have that feeling to them. Even as a (gasp) conservative I loved West Wing (yay Ainsely!) and I'm kinda loving Newsroom. I love the dialogue writing on it but there are times that I kinda get distracted by what I find are grandstanding. Meh. Whateva.
I actually started watching Gilmore Girls because I caught the episode that starts with Luke and Lorelai arguing about Starwars Episode III. For those who don't know the exchange:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE7Q6G...
Oops.. that's in.. German? Wow. Impressive. Hangon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYakQz...
"He's got all these powers but he can't scurry?"
I'm almost a slave to dialogue. I had a character end up becoming bisexual because it made for a good round of whitty banter and before I knew it... she's come out.
Of course the fun of that was talking to my Mother In Law after she read it and asked "Was Torri gay? There was that one line and it bugged me the entire book."
I find dialogue difficult to write. Convincing dialogue anyway. I'll read it back later and think 'this is bollocks...' So I plug on and keep writing dialogue scenes in the hope that one day I'l write a good one.A couple of weeks ago I wrote a first kiss. It was really awkward and stretched over two days of story time, with several 'near misses'. That was really fun to write :)
The problem I have with dialogue is that I find I often get into three or four way conversations. This is awkward because you have to put Bob said, Ethan said at the end of each line. Anyone worked out a better way of doing that?I also find action quite hard to write. I tend to visualise the scene as a movie and trying to describe what I see in words, and still sound good, is difficult.
That was the annoying thing about John Scalzi's Redshirts, as read by ensign Wheaton - it was all Dahl said, Duvall said, kowalski said, Dahl said...Was driving me potty after a while
While I know some writers hate people who use Responded, Commented, Shared, Observed, etc instead of just saying "Said" I find that it really breaks up the monotony of dialogue and makes it easier to re-read.I also like to put in action that's happening while the dialogue is taking place, such as where someone is looking, or what they're doing with their hands, or if they're standing still vs pacing.
If I may:
“I’m a vampire.”
Emma blinked. “Okay. You think you’re a vampire. So this is some game? Like a Detroit By Night Role Playing game or something?”
“No,” Regan shook her head. “Like I’m really a vampire. I died, rose again, drink blood, and have super-smell.”
Emma sniffed the air. “You don’t smell dead to me.”
“I mean,” Regan clarified, “I have hyper smelly sense. Like, I can tell you that you were snacking on your sister’s famous chocolate and caramel rice crispie treats tonight, and that the messenger girl has been thinking about getting home to have sex with her boyfriend for the last hour.”
Emma shook her head. “No way. That’s freaking insane. You can’t be a vampire.” She stammered. “I mean you’re so not the vampire type.”
Regan stood up a little straighter. “What about me makes me not the vampire type? You think you’d make a better one?”
Emma relaxed a little. “Well maybe not me, but when was the last time you heard of a vampire accountant?”
“Vampires have money,” Regan answered coolly. “So they have to have some accountants to manage it and keep it hidden from things like the IRS.”
“Don’t you mean ‘people like the IRS’?”
“I’m pretty sure the IRS qualifies as a soulless entity.
Not one said in the whole mix and I like to think it flows well...
Another one of those "personal preference" things I suppose but I prefer "said" to other tags. I think some action with regards to dialogue works but too much is annoying. I used to employ a lot of adverbs such as "coldly, cautiously, etc. But as my writing style changed, I began trying to make the dialogue run as if it were on goose-greased rails.But hey, everyone has their own taste.
@Charles – You don't have to ascribe dialogue tags after each line of dialogue. Far from it so long as you provide an anchor every now and then to string the reader along without losing them. Of course if you have a section of pure dialogue with four people, then you'll need to use more of the "Bob said" sort of tags. But if Fred can "nod at bob after, during, or before Fred speaks" we can reduce the need for a "Bob said" tag in order to identify Bob as the talker.
Haha, but be sure to avoid classic mistakes; when all characters are nodding, turning, tilting their heads or shrugging before every sentence, it can sound extremely silly. I wrote something once so full of 'she turned to him' and 'she shrugged' and 'she turned away' that when I read it back it dawned on me that my character looked somewhat like a spinning ballerina suffering some sort of epileptic fit! Needless to say that had not been what I was aiming for, and I changed it pretty quickly in favour of a few more 'he said, she saids' and paying closer attention to what the characters might actually be doing, which probably involved a hell of a lot less shrugging and turning!
@Ruth - Agreed. But I think one or two action tags in a block of dialogue with four or so talkers isn't over the top. Though I completely agree that you don't want your characters to bob around like they're on strings :)Less will always always always be more.
Absolutely. I think that's why writing dialogue is so hard: It's a delicate thing which has to be carefully balanced - too much of any one thing (and that includes too many inventive alternatives to 'said') and it becomes a mess. It's easy in script format, but for novels, I find it really hard to make a conversation sound natural.
I once wrote a story based on people I knew, and writing dialogue was so easy! I just wrote how I knew they talked. That's when it clicked - you just have to know your characters that well too. (Easy, right?)
It may sound cheesy, but my favorite scenes to write are those where I feel the character is engaged. Every time I feel the character's engagement, I feel engaged. Many long fictions require exposition, narrative bridges, or scenes you know have to be there but don't compel. I've spent a long time finding ways to cut or tweak these, and have come to adore when characters feel authentically into their dialogue-arguments, or chase scenes, or quiet moments of exhaustion, or personal revelations. I'll be into any scene where it feels like the characters are truly clicking.Related to the dialogue discussion, I was terrible at it for years. It was easily my worst area in fiction. It took a lot of experimenting and studying other authors to improve, but I noticed when I started enjoying it was around the same time peer-reviews came in much more positive, and I sold a few of my dialogue-only stories.
Jenny wrote: "I once wrote a story based on people I knew, and writing dialogue was so easy! I just wrote how I knew they talked. That's when it clicked - you just have to know your characters that well too. (..."So should I treat my first draft more as a "getting to know you" exercise for the characters, and worry less about getting other aspects (plot etc) right? And having done that, be prepared to pretty much write the whole thing from scratch for the second draft (with the obvious benefit of now knowing the characters much better)?
Serious question, btw. I'm starting to wonder whether what my writing suffers from is "trying too hard"...
I enjoy writing scenes that introduce characters and gives the reader a peek into what the characters are like as people, their behavior, attitude, etc.I like to write scenes that deal with what the characters are dealing with internally and emotionally too.
There have been a few action scenes I've enjoyed writing, particularly a chase scene I wrote a few months ago, though the story as a whole for me was a disappointment so I trashed it.
Ruth wrote: "Thaddeus wrote: "I have to admit, I do enjoy writing scenes with combat in them,"Ha, combat scenes are the worse for me. I'm on the second draft of a story, and in the first draft I pretty much j..."
Same here for the beginnings, I have SO many stories I've begun and then just let sit because I'm like, "Well, I started you...now write yourself!" I'm TERRIBLE with writing the middle of any story.
I usually know what ending I want, but if I don't know/love the characters enough (since I usually think of characters first and the story branches off from them) then I never finish. Or I might love them but just need a bit more development for them in my own mind.
So, beginnings and endings, no problem. Getting there? UGH!
Tim A wrote: Serious question, btw. I'm starting to wonder whether what my writing suffers from is "trying too hard"... It's always possible to try too hard and mess up a piece through overthinking, but never neglect that some things take a lot of work. Twain, Hemingway and Fitzgerald each went through over twenty different endings to their masterpieces.
Out of curiosity, have you ever taken some books with good dialogue and marked them up to analyze how they succeed?
Tim A wrote: "So should I treat my first draft more as a "getting to know you" exercise for the characters, and worry less about getting other aspects (plot etc) right? And having done that, be prepared to pretty much write the whole thing from scratch for the second draft (with the obvious benefit of now knowing the characters much better)?"Obviously everyone has their own way of writing. But I would suggest that you treat your first draft like you're falling timber. Just get the trees on the ground and worry about limbing, bucking, and leaving trim for later. Unless you are some sort of genius that the world has yet to encounter, you will never write a perfect first draft to anything outside of emails and perhaps shopping lists (though I think shopping lists even need revision from time to time). Point being, you might be getting in your own way if you are thinking about plot dynamics, dialogue construction, etc. I think it's great to have these things in mind depending on how you operate but isn't the main job of writing getting the story out or getting the trees on the ground? Trust me, there will be time in that hell known as revision for any modifications you'd like to employ. Was it Stephen King who said something like, "Write your first draft for yourself and all following drafts for other people." So just get the first draft out and onto paper or into memory and worry about how to make it shine later.
Outside of writing, one of the best ways to improve your writing is to read. Find something that grabs you and try and understand why. Find dialogue that spits sparks or rolls nicely along and try to figure out what makes it do that. Of course, the more diverse your reading, the more types of writing styles you will encounter.Note:
I don't mean to come across like a know-it-all bastard, as there are numerous things I am ignorant to. I'm just trying to lend some good advice that others have given me in the past with respect to writing.
Combat scenes are the most exciting, but the build-up and aftermath are just as important, otherwise the combat loses emotional impact. Guess I like writing all of it at this point, and seeing it come together as a best-effort.
The problem I have or had most often in the early years was over-writing. Too much detail. Gotta know what to leave in, what to leave out. Explaining the thruster over-drive technology gets in the way of the race to the planet surface, or dodging laser beams.
I like writing a raging argument. Not the kind of heated discussion but the mean, nasty kind where everyone comes out emotionally bruised.It is a good way to exorcise my inner bitch and avoid such arguments in real life.
Thanks for the thoughts. As you say I think the priority is to write "stuff" -- get trees in the ground -- and worry less about what those trees are or where they are. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether there are two drafts or twenty (although obviously by draft 19 I may have lost the will to live ;))Yeah I'm also reading pretty much anything I can get my hands on regardless of genre, from hard scifi to romance, crime to to classic, horror to kitchen sink drama (actually I think that *is* horror!), Heck, even 50 shades! and all sorts of authors from well known to indie (the Kindle daily freebies are a wonderful source...) Getting through 1, sometimes 2 novels a week. Gotta have time to write too lol!
I like science investigation and dialogue. It has to be understandable and appropriate, though. My SF tech is approachable and I deliberately make it accessible to the common reader. I tread very lightly on hard SF topics. I love scenes of irony or humor. Especially during dating and relationships. I love conflict and misunderstandings with lovers.
Tim A wrote: "So should I treat my first draft more as a "getting to know you" exercise for the characters, and worry less about getting other aspects (plot etc) right? And having done that, be prepared to pretty much write the whole thing from scratch for the second draft (with the obvious benefit of now knowing the characters much better)?"Rather than that, I would write some character back-story first. If you write a story without some basic idea of plot, it can seem rather aimless. Sometimes this works, but often it doesn't, so I tend to think it's a good idea to get to know characters 'off-set' first. I had real trouble with one particular character once who I just couldn't get a feel for. He was running around being great and making witty retorts and demonstrating these adorable little quirks he had, and all these were good things, but I just couldn't feel anything within him. I realised he was kind of hollow, serving my main character rather than being a character in his own right. I decided to sit down and have a long conversation with him one night, and when I did that he, reluctantly at first (he wasn't sure I cared), began to reveal some of the major events in his life which had a real effect on his current situation. I'll never put that conversation in the book because it is worthless to the story (plus I respect his privacy), but now that he has confided in me and discussed his history, he has become a solid, living breathing person, and no longer the shallow shell I was struggling with.
It isn't something which comes easy to me, like beginnings, but when characters open up to me, it is a wonderful feeling.
Casey wrote: "Note:
I don't mean to come across like a know-it-all bastard, as there are numerous things I am ignorant to. I'm just trying to lend some good advice that others have given me in the past with respect to writing. "
Of course! I'm no expert either, but I love to write, and I will share my views and opinions in the hopes that it will help or be of interest to others. I'm also enjoying reading the suggestions here, and finding out what people love to write, and what they struggle with. This is a great thread. :D
The way I approached my novel (I'm still writing the first draft) was to lay out the story first. I wrote about 25 pages detailing the sequence of scenes that the plot would go through. The ending was somewhat more vague than the earlier bits as I only worked out how to tie up all the threads when I got half-way through the first proper draft! I then started to write, roughly following that outline but changing it here and there as the story took its own path.My main character is very detailed because a) he's based broadly on me and b) I had been thinking about the story for years before I even starting thinking about writing it down. Other characters are very two dimensional - even one dimensional! - as they are slotted in to play off the main character or move the plot along. I don't worry about this as, for me, the purpose of this first draft is to just get the story down (and given it's taken 6 years so far, that by itself is quite an effort!*). When I've finished the first draft, I shall have a conversation, as Ruth put it, with each of the characters to work out who they are before I write the second draft, which should be better informed.
With the back-story stuff, I've written loads of it in the first draft. Practically the whole history of the setting is somewhere in the story. I did this to explore how things came to be as they are in the story, both to inform the story but also because I plan this story to be the last in a series and, by plotting the history for this story, I have detailed the background for the stories I have yet to write. Most of this background stuff - probably amounting to about a third of what I have written so far - will be culled in the next draft.
* I should note that this is not because it is a long novel, quite the contrary in fact, but because I never find the time to write. I also have the added complication that I am a slow writer!
I love writing about the few moments just before something big happens. I love the feel of complete mundaneness of the scene, nombness of the characters on the surface. But underneath, characters are charged with emotions because of the extraordinary things that is coming. That makes them hyperalert and causes them to experience their surroundings and the passage of time differently. I love that briesf moments of time when everything seems extraordinary and time just stops.
That moment where, briefly, everything seems normal and happy, and the nightmares haven't started, and the blackhats haven't brutally murdered the MC's younger sibling and the world hasn't gone to hell in a handbasket. I have a special name for that magical brief moment. I call it... Page 1.
Seriously though, I do like a good build-up, when nothing's actually happened but you can cut the tension with a knife, and as you say everything seems hyper-real and seconds last for hours...
Tough question...I like writing elaborate sequences. Sometimes it's action, sometimes it's just having lots of pieces come together. I always breath a sigh of relief when I look it over and it actually makes sense.
This is going to make me sound like a sadist, but I love writing the Falling Action/Catastrophe parts of the story. The scenes where the characters have just been dealt a not-necessarily-literal killing blow, especially if I can throw in a existentially terrifying twist. There's something about making characters suffer that makes them seem more human and sympathetic to readers that I find very satisfying as a writer.As for my writing process, I try to stick to the adage introduced by Sean Connery's character in Finding Forester: "Write the first draft with your heart, and the second one with your brain." However, when writing in the sci-fi/fantasy genres, I tend to break this rule, because so much thought has to go into world building.
i like to write scenes that happen during a siege ( in the short moments of rest from the battle) that's where I can work on characters [ how they react to the situation, how they act knowing it might be their last night( sex scenes involved)]. I also like to write dialogues that put some character's wits at the test against an oponent; everyone loves riddles
The half a chapter I wrote tonight has both, best of both worlds.
Anyone else have a type of scene they particularly enjoy writing?