Summer by Edith Wharton (Ch 10-18)

[Jamie]

This is for the discussion of Summer by Edith Wharton (Ch 10-18).

[Casceil]

I finished this book yesterday. I found it haunting. Some people commented on the opening thread to the effect that they did not really like Charity. I'm not sure we were necessarily supposed to like her, so much as to try to understand her, and watch her developing understanding of the world and people around her. I have ordered a copy of the book of Edith Wharton's letters, with the letters to the man who may have been the inspiration for Harning. (Letters she asked him to destroy, but he didn't.) I think I am going to have to read more about Wharton's life. "Summer" was so different from Age of Innocence. I am now very curious about the author.

[Carol]

I also just ordered The Letters of Edith Wharton by R. W. B. Lewis from the library and The New York Stories of Edith Wharton.

[Diane]

Casceil wrote: "I finished this book yesterday. I found it haunting. Some people commented on the opening thread to the effect that they did not really like Charity. I'm not sure we were necessarily supposed to..."
Good point Casceil. I think my real dislike of her was her lack of curiosity. She lived in a small town devoid of culture but would not go away to school, she worked in the library but was unfamiliar with the books. She really wanted a knight on a white horse to give her a life rather than find her own way.

[Casceil]

Who doesn't want a white knight to carry them away? I think her motives were a little more complicated than just lack of curiosity. Her reasons for not going away to school seemed to have more to do with her perception that Lawyer Royal needed her around, or else he would be totally alone. Since she had not gone to school, her lack of interest in the books could be because she hasn't read much, and they don't look appealing. The books are old, dirty, and probably smell, and are no doubt full of long sentences made up of unpronounceable and unintelligible words. She does have a goal, to make enough money at her library job to get away. Through much of the book she seems very self-centered, but closer to the end she does seem to be trying to do what might be good for others (giving up Harney so he can keep a prior promise).

[Jamie]

Casceil wrote: "Who doesn't want a white knight to carry them away? I think her motives were a little more complicated than just lack of curiosity. Her reasons for not going away to school seemed to have more to..."

I agree with you but I didnt really see her as self-centered. She really wasnt given much in life but a roof over her head and good living conditions so I dont think she felt like she owed anyone anything. I thought she was independent (as much as she could be). I'm not sure if she was trying to do the right thing by giving up Harney but I guess she was. She truly understood they were different and she could never fit into his world. She knew she would hate it and it wouldn't work even though she knew he cared for her (which I'm am unsure of). I think she wanted to always be with him but she never wanted to marry him until she was pregnant.

[Casceil]

I think she loved the idea of marrying him, but only if it was his choice, and not a shotgun wedding. She had too much pride to marry him if he was compelled by outside forces to marry her.

[Casceil]

What did you think of the apparent transformation of Lawyer Royal?

[Jamie]

Casceil wrote: "What did you think of the apparent transformation of Lawyer Royal?"

Good question. He is what makes this book stand out for me but I can't really decide what I think. Did you take it that he was big into drinking and gallivanting before his wife died or did it start after? I think he had his weaknesses but he wanted Charity safe. Maybe they could finally connect on a friendship level since they both felt the sadness of loss. He had to leave the city because he couldn't make and he lost his wife. I think he finally felt sympathetic towards her.

On Wikipedia it says some versions say she took the brooch from the doctors and others say she ended up giving the doctor all the money Mr. Royall gave her. Mine was the later. What about you guys?

[Casceil]

In mine she gave the doctor all of her money.

Like Jamie, I was not sure what to make of Mr. Royal's change in demeanor at the end. It seemed to start when he gave the speech about how he had returned to the town "for good," and hoped that others would also come back to the town to do good and make the town better. He has offered to marry Charity a couple of times earlier in the book, but she didn't want him. He becomes much more assertive about it at the end, when he knows she is pregnant, and that she has tried to go back to the mountain. So he becomes the knight who carries her off, and he seems to care for her in a much more tender way than he has previously.

[Becky]

I had a really hard time thinking kindly of Charity after she mistreated books ;)


I dont know that she is supposed to be a sympathetic character. I think that the reader is supposed to feel trapped with her, alienated from everyone else by distaste, a different background, money, and secrets. I feel like with Harney Charity has this cathartic explosion. She has always just wanted to escape, but like the library, she also doesn't want any responsibility.... and until she became pregnant thats what she got.

When she went up to the mountain I wanted yell. I was just like, really, you're going to be that foolhardy and stupid? You know when you just want to shake characters out of it. You're staring straight at what they do, and you are just going to go along with it? I was very frusterated by it.

I thought Wharton's frequent comparisons between Charity and animals was very illuminating. She "slinks", "hides in the shadows", and is always commenting on her "animal sensations."

[Diane]

Casceil wrote: "Who doesn't want a white knight to carry them away? I think her motives were a little more complicated than just lack of curiosity. Her reasons for not going away to school seemed to have more to..."
I am not as charitable as you about her motives for not going away to school. There is seldom one reason for not doing something but I don't think any of hers were kindness to Mr. Royal. If a significantly older person who was my caregiver had an interest in me other than fatherly, I would not decide to hang around out of kindness to him. I suspect a deeper reason that even she could not have explained. Perhaps she was in her heart of hearts afraid of actually leaving or perhaps it was a "here I am but not for you" snub at Mr. Royal. Or perhaps she really just plain did not want to do school work or perhaps a combination to some degree of all those reasons.
If she truly wanted to escape the town, school would have been the perfect venue.

[Becky]

I agree with you except that I do not think she had any notion that Mr. Royall was harboring unfatherfly feelings for her until long after her school years.

I do agree though that for as much as she hated the town, the outside world scared her just as much. She had no sense of belonging any where, and was somehwat expecting someone to carry her out of the town as she had been previously carried off of the mountain. I think she was a very confused woman who had had to idea of a healthy, nurturing relationship, and that made her cold and disdainful.

[Diane]

I do agree though that for as much as ..."
Yes, you have expressed thoughts about her perfectly.
Sorry, it has been awhile since I read it and my lingering impression thought the going away school offer was after.

[Becky]

I do agree though that I thought that was particularly creepy.

I've seen this sort of action frequently in books for the 1600's to 1900's era... does anyone know if such actions by a guardian in real life was met with by contempt of their peers, or was it an acceptable development between a single guardian and his ward?

[Silver]

Diane wrote: I think my real dislike of her was her lack of curiosity. She lived in a small town devoid of culture but would not go away to school, she worked in the library but was unfamiliar with the books."

This is one of the problems that I had with her as well. On the one hand she wanted to act as if she was better than everyone else. And she was rude to particularly everyone else in the town. And I thought she treated Allyy horribly, considering the girl was just trying to help her and be her friend. Yet at the same time she really wasn't better than any of them. She lacked any real intellectual tendency. And not to sound mean, but she just came off as being haughtily but not particularly intelligent.

[Silver]

Jamie wrote: I'm not sure if she was trying to do the right thing by giving up Harney but I guess she was."

I do not think that her giving up Harney was so much an act of wanting to do the right thing but more of an act of her own pride. I think she just did not want to marry him if he was already promised to someone else before her. I think her giving him up was more because she was wounded at discovering the truth of the kind of person he was, than her acting selflessly for another person.

[Casceil]

Silver, I believe you are right that pride was a lot of her motivation. I'm not convinced it was her only motivation, but pride certainly was a major motivating force.

[Casceil]

Becky wrote: I thought Wharton's frequent comparisons between Charity and animals was very illuminating. She "slinks", "hides in the shadows", and is always commenting on her "animal sensations."
I found the comparison of Charity to animals an interesting counterpart to the way the author uses active verbs to make Nature an actor. (See my comments on earlier chapters.) Was Wharton trying to emphasize that we are all part of Nature? The Mountain is practically a character in this book.

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[Diane]

I got the book again from the library and re-read it. I do feel a little more sympathetic toward Charity on the second reading but, more importantly, am even more impressed with Edith Wharton's phenomenal skill.

[E]

Charity's behaviour seemed rather reckless and selfish to me. I suppose that's not uncommon for a young girl, but it made it hard to sympathise definately.

Was it really so certain the father of her child wouldn't return? It seemed to me she gave up on him without any fault of his own.

Its a small silly point, but it really bothered me that her pregnancy was never verbally spoken of between Charity and Royal. That's a major issue to just assume is understood.

[Silver]

Erin wrote: "Was it really so certain the father of h..."

After she found out the truth about Harney, that he was something of a womanizer (being he had previously promised to marry another woman before beginning his flirtation and seduction of Charity) she did not want him to feel forced into marriage with her out of a since of obligation for the baby.

She knew of situations where his happened with other women and how unhappy they were, so if Harney did not genuinely love her, and want to marry her out of his own choice (not out of duty) then she did not want to be married to him.

She did not "give up" on him so much as realized he was not the person she once believed him to be, and did not in fact see a happy future with him.

[E]

i understand. i was under the impression he already preferred to marry her without knowing about the baby. but if she fell out of love with him, that would explain why she didnt want to marry him.

[Silver]

Erin wrote: "i understand. i was under the impression he already preferred to marry her without knowing about the baby. but if she fell out of love with him, that would explain why she didnt want to marry him."

I am not so sure if it is a matter of her falling out of love, at least not entirely, but after she found out about his involvement with another woman, at the same time in which he was flirting with her, she doubted his own love and could not take the risk of committing herself to him if he never truly loved her.

I think that Harney is meant to be portrayed as a disgenuine lover who seduced the naive Charity without having any true intentions towards her. As Royall pointed out, Harney never spoke a word of any intent of wedding her until after that encounter when Royall caught Charity and Harney alone in the cabin and Royall brought it up. And then it was only after that, in which he told Charity he would marry her. So I do not think he ever truly intended or wanted to marry her in the first place, he was just looking for a good time as it were.