THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
Break Out Area
Gregg wrote: "Say what!?!Gamer Leaked Classified Information To Prove Developer Got Tank Wrong
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/inst......"
What a twit! (Putting it very politely.) Just showing off but giving away secrets all the same. He was lucky they didn't make more of it.
Considering the age of the vehicle it would be surprising if most of the information wasn't available to the public at this point anyway. Gotta love Janes
Challenger II's pretty long in the tooth now. The British Army's moving on to smaller things.
Most of the West's armor is pretty long in the tooth. It happens when there isn't much need for it.
Yeah, I understand that the service manual is technically still classified, but I'd just like to point out (for the sake of some perspective) that this is essentially equivalent to leaking a service manual for a Sherman in 1971... This is no doubt obvious, but I completely understand the gamer's frustration. I still remember how furious I used to get, back when I played 'Panzer General', about the shitty equipment models & shoddy dating of weapons systems, etc.
Even TOAW, which is far better, doesn't always get that stuff perfectly right. I mean, what are they going to do, hire the likes of us as researchers? Any gain in accuracy, however substantial, could get pretty expensive pretty damn quick in that scenario I expect...
Only if the M4 was still in service in 1971. There's also the unimportant fact that you shouldn't go shouting your trap off. Otherwise I suspect a few of us might just have said a few things we shouldn't.
The M4 (mostly in the form of upgrades like the well-known Israeli "Super Sherman", admittedly) was, in fact, still in service in 1971, Jonny. All over the world...
For the record, and just in case anyone has somehow gotten the wrong idea, I do not advocate leaking classified information as a corrective measure against poor quality research or design on the part of video game designers.
Jonny wrote: "Only if the M4 was still in service in 1971. There's also the unimportant fact that you shouldn't go shouting your trap off. Otherwise I suspect a few of us might just have said a few things we sho..."It was in service in the Israeli Army I believe.
Jonny wrote: "Challenger II's pretty long in the tooth now. The British Army's moving on to smaller things."Smaller and worse ... the new ones are dangerous to their occupants! :-)
Just saw an article in 'Politico' on current events in Afghanistan (https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08... here's just one quote from the article:"Mark Jacobson, a former Pentagon official and combat veteran who was a senior NATO official in Afghanistan, believes too much focus was given to preparing the Afghan military to repel a foreign army rather than a home-grown insurgency like the Taliban.
'We failed in trying to make the Afghan army in our own image,' he said in an interview. 'We tried to create regiments and brigades when we needed to create an army and police force that was basically special forces designed specifically to beat back an insurgency, not to defend the Afghan borders against outside conventional attacks.'
Am I fucking hallucinating??? Practically the entire Indo-China studies community, plus large numbers of assorted Viet Nam War veterans, have been warning anyone who would listen in the U.S. Government and military since at least 2003 about making the same fucking stupid mistakes in Afghanistan & Iraq that were made in South East Asia all those years ago. More than one book was even published on precisely that topic. Obviously none of them listened. Needless to say, I was nearly frothing at the mouth with rage when I finished reading this article.
I would be willing to bet that right now, as I type this, some smart-ass in Kabul is setting his laptop to play 'White Christmas' over and over and over again.
"The temperature in [Kabul] is 105 degrees and rising"...
Liam wrote: "Just saw an article in 'Politico' on current events in Afghanistan (https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08... here's just one quote from the article:"Mark Jacobson, a..."
True, but it's tough to defeat insurgencies that have foreign support. The Vietnamese communists had that from Russia and China and, for understandable political reasons, the US wasn't eager to go to war with those countries. For equally understandable reasons, America isn't going to start a war with a duplicitous Pakistani government that's nominally an ally, but has elements that support the Taliban.
Another parallel is that many Americans came to see the war in Vietnam as lost and not worth fighting. Many Americans have reached the same conclusion about Afghanistan, but we haven't been as vocal about it, likely due to all the other terrible news over the past few years (and the absence of a draft, unlike in Vietnam) The Obama administration also reached the conclusion that the war was unwinnable as far back as 2009 (that was when unofficial US peace feelers to the Taliban started)
If the Afghan government and military that we have spent years of effort and billions of dollars investing in can collapse so quickly after a US withdrawal, that suggests the mission wasn't viable in the first place (another parallel to Vietnam) Then again, we don't know how quickly this government will collapse, or how quickly the Taliban will advance. I'm also not sure if the Taliban will ever take over the entire country. During the civil war in the 1990s, the Taliban did control the south, but the Northern Alliance was in control in the North, and they had backing from foreign countries as well.
I haven't seen any reports that the military is pressuring Biden to change course on Afghanistan. They are certainly aware that the only alternative is for Biden to restart a war he has already decided to end. And a war that Biden was skeptical about since Obama's 2009 decisions regarding that war.
If there ever was an obvious path to victory in Afghanistan, I guess I never saw it, nor did anyone else who mattered. Also, I remember that almost every year this war has gone on, the ISAF commander in Afghanistan would make some kind of statement (usually in a press conference or interview) that the US was "turning a corner" in the war; they used that sort of phrase over and over again for years. I also recall that America announced an end to "combat operations" in 2014, and again in 2015.
Don't mean to go on a rant, but those are the thoughts that come to me as the news gets worse and worse.
U.S. 8th Air Force vet singshttps://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapi...
https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/wwi...
Today in S. Korea August 15th is the holiday, National Liberation Day of Korea, that commemorates the Allied victory over Japan and ended Japans occupation and colonial rule from 1910-1945. The holiday is know as Gwangbokjeol, meaning "The day light returned."
Doubledf99.99 wrote: "Today in S. Korea August 15th is the holiday, National Liberation Day of Korea, that commemorates the Allied victory over Japan and ended Japans occupation and colonial rule from 1910-1945. The hol..."Thanks for that bit of interesting information :)
Liam wrote: "Just saw an article in 'Politico' on current events in Afghanistan (https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08... here's just one quote from the article:"Mark Jacobson, a..."
No, Liam, you are not hallucinating but you are correct. The moment they announced they were going into Afghanistan, I knew it would end like this. The parallels with Vietnam are significant: not always knowing who the enemy is; trying to keep a weak (puppet?) government in power; local armed forces that have no real confidence/commitment to fighting; total absence of a realistic political plan or exit plan; completely failure to 'know your enemy'; failure to take history into account – not just Vietnam but the fact the the British, who had a massive technological and quality advantage, got kicked out of Afghanistan in 1842, most of them being wiped out on their march through the snowy mountain passes to Jalalabad.
An author who wrote about that – First British/Afghan War – after interviewing many survivors wrote that it was:
... a war begun for no wise purpose, carried on with a strange mixture of rashness and timidity, brought to a close after suffering and disaster, without much glory attached either to the government which directed, or the great body of troops which waged it. Not one benefit, political or military, was acquired with this war. Our eventual evacuation of the country resembled the retreat of an army defeated.'
Hmm ... a bad show all round, despite the heroics of the troops on the ground – the PBI always pay the price of the politicians' folly.
Politicians always think they know best but they don't learn from history and they don't listen to words of wisdom.
Jerome & Gary- Thank you both for your much more thoughtful responses to my ranting & raving. Apologies for not responding in a more timely fashion- my internet access got cut off at 9:01 am last Monday, and is just now starting to work again to some extent. This was probably due to my finally losing my patience with the intermittent service over the last three months, and calling AT&T customer service to raise hell. Oh well, if it works better from now on it will be worth it. My computer's keyboard is still messed up though, so I'll respond further to the actual comments when I have more time...
As far as "the heroics of the troops on the ground", I am reminded of the words Kipling wrote to commemorate, somewhat bitterly, the death of a classmate:
(From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier')
"A scrimmage in a Border Station-
A canter down some dark defile
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail."
I hate to quote that scandalous old imperialist, racist bastard, but there it is...
I don’t regret going into Afghanistan. Our object at the time was to get Bin Ladin and any of his cohorts. Took ten years but we got him. In Pakistan. Pakistan is a whole other subject. We should have got out after we got Bin Ladin but we didn’t. Eisenhower foresaw that problem: It’s called The Military/Industrial Complex.
I would like to wish everyone here who celebrates this day - A HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!For those who don't, Happy 25 November
happy wrote: "I would like to wish everyone here who celebrates this day - A HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!For those who don't, Happy 25 November"
Thanks, Happy. The same to you and yours.
Well, normally I'm wishing our illustrious moderator, AR, a Happy New Year after he's already there. So I'm getting a head start and wishing all a very Happy New Year. Surely it has to be better than the last two. Being part of this most excellent group always makes the day easier.
You beat me Mike 😂Happy New Year to everyone and like Mike, I hope we all have a better year in 2022.
Wishing everyone a very happy New Year and a healthy 2022!
That AR is always ahead of the game ...Mike wrote: "Well, normally I'm wishing our illustrious moderator, AR, a Happy New Year after he's already there. So I'm getting a head start and wishing all a very Happy New Year. Surely it has to be better th..."
This bought today contains no WW2, so I placed it here ?Directing Operations: British Corps Command on the Western Front 1914-18
Simpson, Andy
British Generalship on the Western Front 1914-1918: Defeat into Victory (Military History and Policy)
Robbins, Simon
Quantum Field Theory and the Standard Model
Schwartz, Matthew D.
Haig's Intelligence: GHQ and the German Army, 1916-1918 (Cambridge Military Histories)
Beach, Jim
British Artillery 1914-19: Heavy Artillery: No.105 (New Vanguard)
Clarke, Dale
Necessary Heresies: Challenging the Narratives Distorting Contemporary UK Defence (Whitehall Papers)
Bronk, Justin
A State of Fear: How the UK government weaponised fear during the Covid-19 pandemic Nudge nudge.
Dodsworth, Laura
Conventional Deterrence (Cornell Studies in Security Affairs), WW2, Yom Kippur, Nato vs Warsaw Pact circa 1983.
Mearsheimer, John J.
Some series reading there Simon!
Happy Lunar New Year everyone. It's the Year of the Tiger.
Doubledf99.99 wrote: "Happy Lunar New Year everyone. It's the Year of the Tiger."My next book will be:
In the Year of the Tiger: The War for Cochinchina, 1945–1951 by William Waddell.Just a coincidence.
Excellent choice MR9 and one that I am also keen to read! I may even follow you :)
That does look mighty interesting, but I really need to chill out with the number of books and CDs I've been buying recently; not to mention the fact that I need to get some reading done with the books I have stacked all around me at the moment... Hopefully one (or both) of you will review it when you're done! By the way, Manray9, are you familiar with Max Roach's 'Members, Don't Git Weary'? If not, I highly recommend it- I just got turned on to it a few months ago, and it's been in heavy rotation ever since!
Liam wrote: "That does look mighty interesting, but I really need to chill out with the number of books and CDs I've been buying recently; not to mention the fact that I need to get some reading done with the b..."Liam: I purchased that album around 1972. A fellow Baltimorean, Gary Bartz, played sax.
I'm not surprised. I expected that would probably be the case, for that very reason! Such a great record...
Damn, someone is selling the entire set of the HMSO 'United Kingdom Official History of the Second World War' series on AbeBooks, all 49 volumes. I don't know that I'd be willing to pay US$4500.00, but if that is your particular field of interest, it probably looks a bit more reasonable...À propos messages 2314-2324 above, there's a new article on the Afghanistan debacle in The Atlantic, which is stomach-turning but well worth reading: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...
A bit to digest there Liam! Thanks for posting the link to that article.
My daughter gave me a X-box 360 for Fathers Day last year and at Christmas a few new games. I am starting to get addicted to a number of the WW2 shooter games and my reading is starting to suffer. I will need to get some discipline into the time I set aside to play a game but its too much fun sometimes :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "My daughter gave me a X-box 360 for Fathers Day last year and at Christmas a few new games. I am starting to get addicted to a number of the WW2 shooter games and my reading is starting to suffer. ..."LOL. And I complain about work getting in the way of reading.
Its nice being retired 4ZZZ :)
fourtriplezed wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "My daughter gave me a X-box 360 for Fathers Day last year and at Christmas a few new games. I am starting to get addicted to a number of the WW2 shooter games and my reading i..."Work? Oh, I vaguely recall working. Many years ago.
Its starting to be a fuzzy dream for me as well MR9 :)
I dream of retiring some day... hopefully when I turn 62. 14 more years... *sigh*!
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
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Gamer Leaked Classified Information To Prove Developer Got Tank Wrong
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/inst...