Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
VII. Support GR Authors
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Are 1 star reviews really that helpful?
Rp wrote: "No. What you did instead is tell them: "I do not like the way you cooked this. I think you should take it out of the oven earlier.""Actually, saying something like that would have earned me a hand across my mouth -- hard. Perhaps your parents were okay with a child criticizing an adult, but mine certainly were not. You could either eat what was put in front of you, or go hungry. Period. There was no "I don't like this" allowed.
(I didn't know what most vegetables actually tasted like until I was an adult and learned not to boil them to death ... but that's a story for another time.)
I choose not to eat certain foods now that I had to choke down as a kid. I don't want to choke down poorly written books as well. :-(
Whoa... Did Rp seriously just equate my parents' cooking to a book? And equate my behavior vis à vis my parents to that vis à vis an author of said book? Suggest that I should treat and respect an author the same way that I treat my parents? Are you kidding me???Pete wrote: "... res ipsa loquitur."
Indeed, sir. Indeed.
Sharon wrote: "Actually, saying something like that would have earned me a hand across my mouth -- hard. Perhaps your parents were okay with a child criticizing an adult, but mine certainly were not. You could either eat what was put in front of you, or go hungry. Period. There was no "I don't like this" allowed."
I had strict parents too, except mine's taught me to be productive in my criticism, as oppossed to silencing me like a censor (By the way, when was the last time censorship produced good books? Never? Thought so).
"I choose not to eat certain foods now that I had to choke down as a kid. I don't want to choke down poorly written books as well. :-("
Being selective is fine, pretending that every person should cook in the same way is not. Every book must be judged by it's own merits and virtues, as every meal should be judged by it's flavour and taste.
I had strict parents too, except mine's taught me to be productive in my criticism, as oppossed to silencing me like a censor (By the way, when was the last time censorship produced good books? Never? Thought so).
"I choose not to eat certain foods now that I had to choke down as a kid. I don't want to choke down poorly written books as well. :-("
Being selective is fine, pretending that every person should cook in the same way is not. Every book must be judged by it's own merits and virtues, as every meal should be judged by it's flavour and taste.
Serban wrote: "@SharonDo you practice the same behavior vis-a-vis your kinds? This isn't about not revealing in a review the flaws of grammar, but the way in which one does it. You can be tactful, or you can be ..."
I chose not to have kids. :-)
My reviews are civil, but direct.
Rp wrote: "Being selective is fine, pretending that every person should cook in the same way is not. Every book must be judged by it's own merits and virtues, as every meal should be judged by it's flavour and taste. "And what on earth makes you think that I (or anyone else, for that matter) lack the discernment to be able to do so? I don't pick up books on the premise that I will not like them; quite the opposite. If you look at my average for reviews here on GR, you will see that it is 4.37. I rate pretty damned high.
Every book I pick up *starts* with 5 stars; what happens after that is, for good or ill, up to the author. I will not hesitate to call out piss-poor editing, grammar gaffes, etc.
I don't expect there to be only one story in the world. How absurd and boring that would be. I *do* expect that a book be presented in a professional, polished manner. I don't think that is even remotely unreasonable.
Linda wrote: "No, dear heart, those shelvings are how other people see me, not how I see myself or the standards I set for myself."
Your point? If I say that I am the best X ever and turns out I am pretty bad, then who is in the wrong here? My audience, or myself?
Your should take a step back and reflect on that. I say that honestly.
"My reviewers, raters, or shelvers are entitled to their opinions of me and my books, right, wrong, stupid, malicious, generous, kind, misguided, delusional, affectionate, critical, laudatory. But their opinions of me and the standards by which they judge me are not the same as my own standards."
Good writters attract good crowds.
"You are new here, Rp, and so far you have only rated one book. It's nice that you've made a friend."
On Goodreads? Of course, never been to this site before (when did I claim otherwise?). Does not means I am limited by that, and neither should you. That is why I ask you again: Where is your masterpiece? I would not mind reading it and then giving you a detailed review. If it is as good as you present yourself, then I will take off my hat and say "Well, this author is a loud critic but has a solid background to back her up. This work of hers truly emits grandeur." However, if such masterpiece is lacking or even non-existant...
ETA: soon wrote: "Whoa... Did Rp seriously just equate my parents' cooking to a book? And equate my behavior vis à vis my parents to that vis à vis an author of said book?"
What is this I do not even... Do you know understand what an "analogy" is?
Your point? If I say that I am the best X ever and turns out I am pretty bad, then who is in the wrong here? My audience, or myself?
Your should take a step back and reflect on that. I say that honestly.
"My reviewers, raters, or shelvers are entitled to their opinions of me and my books, right, wrong, stupid, malicious, generous, kind, misguided, delusional, affectionate, critical, laudatory. But their opinions of me and the standards by which they judge me are not the same as my own standards."
Good writters attract good crowds.
"You are new here, Rp, and so far you have only rated one book. It's nice that you've made a friend."
On Goodreads? Of course, never been to this site before (when did I claim otherwise?). Does not means I am limited by that, and neither should you. That is why I ask you again: Where is your masterpiece? I would not mind reading it and then giving you a detailed review. If it is as good as you present yourself, then I will take off my hat and say "Well, this author is a loud critic but has a solid background to back her up. This work of hers truly emits grandeur." However, if such masterpiece is lacking or even non-existant...
ETA: soon wrote: "Whoa... Did Rp seriously just equate my parents' cooking to a book? And equate my behavior vis à vis my parents to that vis à vis an author of said book?"
What is this I do not even... Do you know understand what an "analogy" is?
Dude, I know exactly what an analogy is. And your analogy failed. For multiple reasons.Furthermore, I find it very interesting that like Serban, you don't know the difference between empathy and sympathy.
Serban wrote: "@SharonAnd I totally respect that. But if you had, wouldn't you teach them to question things? "
It is really rather difficult to speculate on how I would rear children I didn't want, Serban. I suspect that I would have taught them critical thinking, which is not quite the same thing.
Again, my reviews are civil, but direct. I can swear like a stevedore with Tourette's syndrome, believe me -- but that has no place in a review.
Sharon wrote: "And what on earth makes you think that I (or anyone else, for that matter) lack the discernment to be able to do so?"
People who judge everyone by the same standard will never be fair.
"I don't pick up books on the premise that I will not like them; quite the opposite. If you look at my average for reviews here on GR, you will see that it is 4.37. I rate pretty damned high."
Which is fine, you do not have to like every single book. That is not my point.
"Every book I pick up *starts* with 5 stars; what happens after that is, for good or ill, up to the author. I will not hesitate to call out piss-poor editing, grammar gaffes, etc.
I don't expect there to be only one story in the world. How absurd and boring that would be. I *do* expect that a book be presented in a professional, polished manner. I don't think that is even remotely unreasonable."
Ergo, you expect people to live up to their 5 stars. I do not. Every book I read starts with no score at all, and I only rate it after finishing it. A good rate for me is won, not given, and to do that I need to also be fair. Again - I cannot expect a Gene Roddenberry-quality book from someone who has just begun writting their fiction.
People who judge everyone by the same standard will never be fair.
"I don't pick up books on the premise that I will not like them; quite the opposite. If you look at my average for reviews here on GR, you will see that it is 4.37. I rate pretty damned high."
Which is fine, you do not have to like every single book. That is not my point.
"Every book I pick up *starts* with 5 stars; what happens after that is, for good or ill, up to the author. I will not hesitate to call out piss-poor editing, grammar gaffes, etc.
I don't expect there to be only one story in the world. How absurd and boring that would be. I *do* expect that a book be presented in a professional, polished manner. I don't think that is even remotely unreasonable."
Ergo, you expect people to live up to their 5 stars. I do not. Every book I read starts with no score at all, and I only rate it after finishing it. A good rate for me is won, not given, and to do that I need to also be fair. Again - I cannot expect a Gene Roddenberry-quality book from someone who has just begun writting their fiction.
Rp wrote: " Every book I read starts with no score at all, and I only rate it after finishing it. A good rate for me is won, not given, and to do that I need to also be fair. Again - I cannot expect a Gene Roddenberry-quality book from someone who has just begun writting their fiction."
How nice for you. Everyone is entitled to review books in any way they so desire. I have chosen a different methodology from yours. And guess what? Neither one of us is wrong.
If my standard is that a book be professional, polished, well-edited and entertaining, how on earth is that "unfair"?
I am reasonably sure that I already posted a link to my lengthy blog post on *exactly* how I go about rating and reviewing books. You are welcome to go back and look for it if you so desire. I have both objective and subjective criteria. There is nothing more fair than having objective criteria: that covers things like grammar, editing and so on. What is subjective is whether or not the story kept my attention, I could relate to the characters, etc.
It appears that your entire methodology is subjective and, again, neither one of us is wrong.
Okay:This book was horrible. It was littered with typos, spelling errors, homonyms, formatting blunders; the story was dull and as slow as molasses; the characters were wooden, the dialogue dry. And the cover was dreadful. At 99 cents, I overpaid.
Uncivil bullying or acceptable harsh criticism?
Abigail wrote: "David, I try to focus in the story. But when misplaced or non-existent commas have me confused as to what's happening and who's and whose is messed up, I CAN'T focus on the story because I'm too b..."<You are exactly right! Misuse of pronouns and commas trip me and I get confused and mad at the book. I am an appellate lawyer. The first rule is do not make the justice mad at your brief due to errors in punctuation, spelling and clarity.
Reading is my entertainment. Reading on my Nook, I have discovered a world of talented new authors. After writing my reviews, three or four authors have emailed me thanking me for a criticism. That makes me feel so humble. It is possible that I am communicating with authors destined for greatness. Forgive me for running on so.
Linda wrote: "Now, what was that about glass houses?"
Your point? Tell me where I contradict myself? (Since that is what you are implying).
I do not read every book that comes across my way. But when I do read a book, I do not judge them all by the same standards. I take all factors possible into account. You, evidently, do not. And that is why you are an hypocrite. Bashing indie authors because they do not have expensive editors is stupid.
ETA: soon wrote: "Dude, I know exactly what an analogy is. And your analogy failed. For multiple reasons."
Please provide them? I see it as a perfectly functional analogy. In fact, I will make it again:
I do not expect a 5-star meal from the starting restaurant next door as I do not expect a 5-star book from an starting indie author.
I do not judge all restaurants by the same standards just as I do not judge all books by the same standards.
"Furthermore, I find it very interesting that like Serban, you don't know the difference between empathy and sympathy."
Dictionaries, online and offline, disagree with your assesment.
Your point? Tell me where I contradict myself? (Since that is what you are implying).
I do not read every book that comes across my way. But when I do read a book, I do not judge them all by the same standards. I take all factors possible into account. You, evidently, do not. And that is why you are an hypocrite. Bashing indie authors because they do not have expensive editors is stupid.
ETA: soon wrote: "Dude, I know exactly what an analogy is. And your analogy failed. For multiple reasons."
Please provide them? I see it as a perfectly functional analogy. In fact, I will make it again:
I do not expect a 5-star meal from the starting restaurant next door as I do not expect a 5-star book from an starting indie author.
I do not judge all restaurants by the same standards just as I do not judge all books by the same standards.
"Furthermore, I find it very interesting that like Serban, you don't know the difference between empathy and sympathy."
Dictionaries, online and offline, disagree with your assesment.
Rp wrote: " Bashing indie authors because they do not have expensive editors is stupid."
Um, some of us writing here *are* indie authors ...
BTW, why would you go to a restaurant expecting a crappy meal just because the establishment just opened? Do you assume that the restaurateur lacks the discernment to hire an experienced chef for his or her kitchen? Or, for that matter, that they have never had a restaurant before? Or had any training in the hospitality business?
You really have come out swinging in this group, for reasons that I am at a loss to understand.
Sharon wrote: "Um, some of us writing here *are* indie authors"
Point being: Not everyone has the same amount of resources at their disposal.
"BTW, why would you go to a restaurant expecting a crappy meal just because the establishment just opened? Do you assume that the restaurateur lacks the discernment to hire an experienced chef for his or her kitchen?"
Do you expect a $5 meal to taste like a $50 meal? Which one do you judge harsher and which one lighter? I for one do not judge them in the same way. I eat both for different purposes. One is for filling the stomach, an immediate hunger. The latter does not have to be bad, but it is definetly not international cuisine, and I know that.
"You really have come out swinging in this group, for reasons that I am at a loss to understand."
I am just a book critic like yourself, just discussing what I deem to be fair and unfair.
Point being: Not everyone has the same amount of resources at their disposal.
"BTW, why would you go to a restaurant expecting a crappy meal just because the establishment just opened? Do you assume that the restaurateur lacks the discernment to hire an experienced chef for his or her kitchen?"
Do you expect a $5 meal to taste like a $50 meal? Which one do you judge harsher and which one lighter? I for one do not judge them in the same way. I eat both for different purposes. One is for filling the stomach, an immediate hunger. The latter does not have to be bad, but it is definetly not international cuisine, and I know that.
"You really have come out swinging in this group, for reasons that I am at a loss to understand."
I am just a book critic like yourself, just discussing what I deem to be fair and unfair.
Serban wrote: "...I believe I mentioned what empathy is. I've outlined some context for the average indie author. Empathy does not imply losing your own point of view. But if you cannot put yourself in one's shoes, how can you claim to understand them? ..."Keeping or losing one's POV has NOTHING to do with empathy. Because English isn't your native tongue, gonna give you a break on this.
Empathy = the ability to put oneself in another's shoes due to having experienced the same or similar thing.
Sympathy = not having experienced the same thing yet able to "feel" for the other person.
What's the difference? Experience.
So if I've never lost a child, I can't empathise with my friend who did. But I can sympathise with her.
Thus, being a non-author, I can't empathise with authors. See?
etc: typos
To add to this discussion on editing digital books/releases:I'm sorry, I know I'm going to step on toes, but this issue gets under my skin a bit. As an aspiring indie author and having worked on my current WIP for not quite a year, when I want my story to be finished, I want it to be finished. Done. That means edits, grammar, content, scene structure - everything. That way I don't get bogged down having to go back to my previous story and make changes. It gives me time to write more stories.
What would people say if J.K Rowling had sent out only a half finished/edited version of Harry Potter for consumers to buy for full price? Or if Suzanne Collins only gave a poorly edited version of "The Hunger Games" and said "Oh, I can always go back and add stuff in because I'm releasing it digitally!"
No, just no. When you put your work out there, as an author, as a professional author - put the best foot you have out there to begin with. Put your best effort out so that you don't have to go back make edits. Finish your stories and consider them finished when you put them out, so you can focus your efforts elsewhere, either in the promotion of the book, interacting with your readers, or even writing another story. Seriously.
When you put your work out there, it's out there. Even if there is the possibility for you to alter content, the likelihood of some readers going back to read it after you put out an incomplete or not thoroughly edited work is not high. Your paying customer audience are not your beta readers - they want a story that immerses them and grips them from the get-go, and to get their money's worth. Take care of the beta reading before you put out your work. Sure, people can check a preview for a book, but for me - it's a lost sale for that author if I see that they can't take the time to do proper editing to their work, regardless of background, regardless of anything else but the writing, which is what I judge a book on. If it's only half finished or half edited and up for sale, makes me think that the author doesn't care about the quality of their work - at all. Point blank. For some, that might be a harsh view, but I'm sticking to my gut with that.
Rp wrote: "Do you expect a $5 meal to taste like a $50 meal? Which one do you judge harsher and which one lighter? I for one do not judge them in the same way. I eat both for different purposes."Now you're moving the goalposts. What you originally said was this: "I do not expect a 5-star meal from the starting restaurant next door ..."
If I were a lawyer, I would move to strike your answer as non-responsive. Instead, I will rephrase the question: do you really go to a new restaurant expecting it to be lousy and that the chef and owner have no skills and experience?
Obviously, McDonald's Hamburgers =/= Gordon Ramsey Steak. But that isn't the analogy you made at the start; it's just how you tried to follow up.
In any event, yes: if I pick up an author's first book, I expect to read something polished, professional and entertaining. It doesn't matter whether they were published by Billy-Bob's Little House of Books or Penguin. Sometimes, my expectations are not met -- and it still doesn't matter whether they were published by Billy-Bob's Little House of Books or Penguin.
I gave two stars to "Anna Karenina." It was polished and professional, but I did not find it entertaining.
Rose wrote: "What would people say if J.K Rowling had sent out only a half finished/edited version of Harry Potter for consumers to buy for full price? Or if Suzanne Collins only gave a poorly edited version of "The Hunger Games" and said "Oh, I can always go back and add stuff in because I'm releasing it digitally!"
Would you like to be judged by the same standards critics judge the authors you named?
Having said that, I will refrain from further replying (as I have said all I wanted to say, further chatting is unnecesary as all of you have seen my argument).
I would like to thank Sharon for her politeness despite our difference of opinion, and the OP for making the thread.
A minor edit: Sharon wrote: "If I were a lawyer, I would move to strike your answer as non-responsive. Instead, I will rephrase the question: do you really go to a new restaurant expecting it to be lousy and that the chef and owner have no skills and experience?"
No, but I would not expect it to be 5-stars either. Perhaps it is, perhaps not. But I give them the benefit of doubt. Price also helps measure (once again, I do not expect the same from a free meal than from a high-cost meal).
Would you like to be judged by the same standards critics judge the authors you named?
Having said that, I will refrain from further replying (as I have said all I wanted to say, further chatting is unnecesary as all of you have seen my argument).
I would like to thank Sharon for her politeness despite our difference of opinion, and the OP for making the thread.
A minor edit: Sharon wrote: "If I were a lawyer, I would move to strike your answer as non-responsive. Instead, I will rephrase the question: do you really go to a new restaurant expecting it to be lousy and that the chef and owner have no skills and experience?"
No, but I would not expect it to be 5-stars either. Perhaps it is, perhaps not. But I give them the benefit of doubt. Price also helps measure (once again, I do not expect the same from a free meal than from a high-cost meal).
Rp wrote: "I would like to thank Sharon for her politeness despite our difference of opinion"I see no reason to *be* disagreeable just because we disagree.
Edited to add: Thanks for your response to the restaurant question, BTW. I go in to every dining experience fully expecting to enjoy it very much. :-)
Rp wrote: "...Would you like to be judged by the same standards critics judge the authors you named? ..."Does Rose have a choice? Are there different levels or grading in standards for authors?
Rp wrote: "Rose wrote: "What would people say if J.K Rowling had sent out only a half finished/edited version of Harry Potter for consumers to buy for full price? Or if Suzanne Collins only gave a poorly edit..."I expect readers to bring whatever experiences they will to the table when it comes to consuming/judging/rating a work. For me, I am both a reader and a writer - I recognize that the reading experience is different for all people, and there are many ways to judge a book. To say there are standards? Yeah, absolutely. Do I want to be judged for the quality of the work I put out? Sure. Take it for what it's worth. But I want to make sure I put the best darned effort I can out there. Whether it's a 5-star, 1-star, or somewhere between as rated by readers, I can take that and whatever reasons the reader/reviewer may give. As long as I know that I did the best that I could do, then I'm content. But I know that I open the floor for it to be judged as soon as it's put out into the world, and whatever judgment may come with that, bring it.
If people want to juxtapose the quality of my work with those big names, go ahead. I'm not afraid of that. I realize that this industry has standards on different scales and I expect to be judged by that. But even still, the work I do should speak for itself, without excuses, and I hope in the future that it does.
M. M. Kaye is one of my favorites. That lady can write.
ETA: soon wrote: "Rp wrote: "...Would you like to be judged by the same standards critics judge the authors you named? ..."Does Rose have a choice? Are there different levels or grading in standards for authors?"
It appears to be Rp's opinion that there are. I would have to disagree, at least as concerns the basics of writing. And I do hope and expect that reviewers would hold my writing to the same standards as they would any traditionally published writer. I certainly did my best (and, since the issue of money keeps coming up, without spending any of that) to meet those standards, both in my narrative and in the mechanics. I would be insulted if I were judged, "pretty good, for an Indie."
And Serban: you seem to have changed your argument from saying that Indie's shouldn't be held accountable for editing (see top of previoius page) to saying that we should be civil in our reviews. I personally believing in remaining civil at all times. But I can't control how others review my books, I can only consider if their critique can be in any way useful to me--and then remember that reviews are, at least historically, meant to help readers find books they wish to read (and to make authors take to drink, but that's a different issue).
In fact, if I accept any distinctions or levels of writing quality, it has to do with genre, not who published the book. I do not hold genre fiction to the same standards as literary fictions--in terms of sophistication of plot and beauty of language. Note that I still hold them to a pretty stict standard of plausibility of plot and competance of language.
Maybe I am too strict. After all, I hold advanced degrees in English Lit and have taught composition. But. . . my 13-year-old manages to write grammatically-correct and accurately spelled and punctuated sentences, usually first time around. I expect any high school graduate to be able to do as well (and was, I admit, consistently disappointed when my Freshman Comp students repeatedly proved they couldn't).
But I call it pride in workmanship, and I call it professionalism, to not publish anything that has not been edited, revised, proofed, and re-read within an inch of its life.
Many writers also fail to realise that the misplaced comma, or the incorrectly spelled word, can catastrophically change the meaning of a sentence. Obviously none of us are perfect. And that is why all writers, no matter how skilled, require good editing and proofreading. Good editing exposes plot inconsistencies, pacing issues, and characterisation issues along with many other problems that all authors face. When we write, we are often so far inside the story, that we are blind to some of our own errors. Proofreading exposes grammatical errors, formatting problems and spelling issues.
Even multiple proofreads and professional editing may sometimes miss things. BUT if we writers are blind to our own faults, and unwilling to learn, then we do ourselves an enormous disservice.
Rp said: "Would you like to be judged by the same standards critics judge the authors you named?"
When any writer, be they indie, self published, or traditionally published, puts their work out into the public domain, they will be judged by the same standards as experienced and highly professional writers whether they want to be or not.
I'd love a well known critic to pick up my book and read it. (I'm not as sure that I'd like to read their review afterwards, but the same applies to any review, really.) BUT, I'd be mortified to hear that they put it down because of my spelling, grammar, or punctuation. If they didn't like the genre, or the actual story, well, that's a different matter. That happens. None of us likes everything we read.
Small errors happen, even with the best proofreading, but they happen occasionally, and the same error doesn't occur repeatedly. However, if, out of say 60,000 words, a significant proportion of them are poorly spelt, punctuated, or ordered, then the writer has a problem with basic skills that they need to rectify before the work is ready for publication.
As a reader, I don't want to read a book that leaves me confused because the author doesn't know the difference between there, their or they're, or where the apostrophe does or doesn't go in the word its, or what tense the author is writing in. I read because of the story, but the story can be destroyed by the writing.
And if anyone is wondering - I'm from Australia, which is why I'm writing with rather less use of the letter z. :)
Serban wrote: "@ETAPeople often confuse the words empathy and sympathy. Empathy means ‘the ability to understand and share the feelings of another’ (ex: both authors have the skill to make you feel empathy with ..."
*sigh* From one foreign speaker to another, I hope that you'll agree that using a word technically correct by definition does not necessarily mean that it's correct in context. Especially when the language is not our native tongue? (I can still hear the howls of laughter from my relatives due to some of my unintentional mistakes.) And I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this because it's a red herring and derails the discussion.
And before you ask, it's irrelevant because in the context of any negative review, it doesn't matter whether or not a reader/reviewer can empathise or sympathise with an author. A book is a product and the reader is its consumer. I think about empathising/sympathising with an author of a poorly-written book about as much as I would empathise/sympathise with the contractor who incorrectly installed my water heater and flooded my basement.
On-topic: Yes. I believe an honest one-star review with accompanying reasons can be very helpful to both the writer and readers who are wondering whether to pick up a book. When there is no reason given or reasons which are obviously mean-spirited, pointless or directed at the book for reasons which have nothing or little to do with the book itself, then no. Those kind of reviews help nobody. I myself have written a one-star review. On a book I didn't finish no less. Some here would say I shouldn't have written a review on a book I didn't finish, but my opinion of what I had read up to point I closed the book was not going to change through another two hundred pages. My reasons for not continuing through the book I stated in my review. It was a mess of a book and not even indie published. I actually felt I would be doing other potential readers a disservice by not informing them of the problems the book had.
Off-Topic: To start. I feel that anyone who publishes a book should intend for their book the best it should be. The idea that "It's digital, I can fix it later on." is absolutely absurd. It's lazy and shows how little the author actually cares about the content that they put out.
The idea that indie authors should be held to a different standard and "cut some slack" is equally absurd. There are no "minority" bookstores or ebook sections. When you put your book out there, you are competing with the books from the big companies for space on the reader's shelves. You don't deserve a little extra leeway just because you published it yourself. If anything, readers expect more out of you because of what you have to compete with.
Like it or not, there is a standard for published books. It includes a decent cover and proper writing. Filling a book with misspellings, plot holes, and bad grammar and then whining that you should be held to a different standard because you're an indie author deserves a slap in the face.
No one yet has provided a persuasive reason why is it improper to review a book you didn't finish.
I try to give books at least a 3 star unless something really makes me mad in it. Like if a characters so irritating their a heart attack risk or if someone I really like dies.
Pete wrote: "No one yet has provided a persuasive reason why is it improper to review a book you didn't finish."I may or may not have said this already; if I am repeating myself, I apologize. I have reviewed books I didn't finish. In the review, I said *why* I didn't finish. (For example, when I tried to read Shōgun in high school, I could not keep all of the characters straight. I gave up. I might pick it up again, LOL.)
I received a 1 star review from someone who said she only read 30% of the book. I have no problem with her only reading 30% of the book, hating it and not wanting to continue. This is what her review should have said and nothing more. However, she then proceeded to point out issues she had with the plot, issues that would have been resolved had she read the rest of the book. My book is not for everyone. No book is. I think reviewers need to take this into account when posting scathing reviews. Grammar, typos, poor writing are fair game, but if the book is not for you and you can't be bothered finishing it, then maybe think twice about giving it a poor review.
The happy ending though, is that the day after this 1 star review I sold 9 copies and then got a couple of good reviews!
Chris wrote: "I received a 1 star review from someone who said she only read 30% of the book. I have no problem with her only reading 30% of the book, hating it and not wanting to continue. This is what her revi..."I don't really see the problem there, personally speaking.
If someone had issues with the plot up until that point and they know the reasons why they had the respective issues, it's a fair aspect to examine. And if it were enough that it wasn't addressed by that point of the book, that would also be a fair point to make. An educated guess or inference isn't an invalid point to make for someone who was unable to finish a book. You can still give a critical assessment and negative review of a book if unfinished.
In my own personal reading habits, I don't typically do DNF reviews because I have a hard time putting a book down even if I don't like it (personally because curiosity carries me through it). But I respect the fact that others do it and find it helpful to see what issues they had up to the point in the book they reached, and what conclusions they draw. No person views a book the same way, and there's no right/wrong way to interpret or draw conclusions from a work.
Sharon wrote: "Pete wrote: "No one yet has provided a persuasive reason why is it improper to review a book you didn't finish."I may or may not have said this already; if I am repeating myself, I apologize. I ..."
Sharon, I think perhaps you missed the "Im" in "improper."
;)
Wow! This topic has taken off like wildfire! Lol.
There are reasons why it would be best to read a book in it's entirety before writing a review of it. Whether is it improper or not depends on the reasons one stops reading. In cases of storyline, characterization, and explanation of events, it can always be the case that things you don't understand are explained further on. Personally, I can empathize (oop, there's one of those words again) with a writer who feels the whole of a review is unfounded if it starts "I don't understand X and couldn't continue without it." and X is explained in detail deeper into the book. Granted, some books are just bad and as happens, were published with some glaring plot holes. In this situation, I would feel a DNF review is improper, though it may be telling that the author needs to work more on foreshadowing or setting the explanation for something out in pieces throughout the book rather than one lump explanation much deeper in.
In the case of putting a book down due to it being poorly written, a negative review actually feels proper. I delved into some of my feelings on that subject in my previous post(#219) so I will endeavor not to repeat myself here. Suffice to say, a badly written book needs to have a warning of such on it so that other readers aren't duped into wasting money.
by: ETAAnd before you ask, it's irrelevant because in the context of any negative review, it doesn't matter whether or not a reader/reviewer can empathise or sympathise with an author. A book is a product and the reader is its consumer. I think about empathising/sympathising with an author of a poorly-written book about as much as I would empathise/sympathise with the contractor who incorrectly installed my water heater and flooded my basement.
Well put! I think the same thing. Sometimes we buy a product, whether it's a mixer or a new shirt or a book, and it just doesn't work for us. My feelings about it shouldn't be based on what the creator was thinking when they developed it. It should perform as advertised. If I buy a book that is on the market for sale and requires an expenditure of my hard-earned $$, I expect to at least get something that follows the most basic rules of grammar, spelling and punctuation. If I end up unhappy with the way the author portrays the story, well then it is a question of, did I really pay attention to what the book is about? If so, and I feel it was misrepresented, it should be my prerogative to rate it as such. That is how I felt about the one book I ever rated with 1 star, and if I could have given it no stars I would have! Whether or not a book has the backing of a major publisher should have nothing to do with it. As we all know, that is not always the indication of a great, or even a good book.
Pete wrote: "Sharon, I think perhaps you missed the "Im" in "improper.""
Actually, I didn't. It was a roundabout way of agreeing with you.
Allow me to explain. According to Disneyland cast members, the most frequently asked question is "What time is the 3 o'clock parade?" Now, that seems like it's a no-brainer, but the answer they're trained to give is "It will be starting on time, and you will want to be in a good position around 2:30 PM to make sure you and your family can see." That's what's really being asked.
So, I am guilty of giving the 3 o'clock parade answer in order to agree with you. :-D
Allow me to explain. According to Disneyland cast mem..."I've worked there--actually the most popular question is "Where is the bathroom?" :-)
But I get what you're saying--what people ask is not always what they want. (and yes, they do ask about the 3 o'clock parade.)
My take on one star reviews is that I actually hope that writers who don't proofread their books before publishing them SHOULD get them, as a message to let them know that their product is substandard. I don't hand them out a lot, but I have written one before. In my case it was because a book was marketed as one thing but contained nothing of what it said it would provide me in terms of knowledge. I felt cheated, and I wasn't happy about it.
And to the poster talking about being judged next to J.K. Rowling--you do realize that Harry Potter was her first book? And she was a nobody when it was published--just a divorced woman writing in a coffee shop.
Damn straight I want to be compared with that.
Judy wrote: "And to the poster talking about being judged next to J.K. Rowling--you do realize that Harry Potter was her first book? And she was a nobody when it was published--just a divorced woman writing in a coffee shop.Damn straight I want to be compared with that. "
You and me both, LOL.
Thanks for chiming in as a DL cast member; I don't have primary experience, but the 3 o'clock parade story really stuck with me after reading The Disney Way: Harnessing the Management Secrets of Disney in Your Company. (I am also kicking myself for not buying the t-shirt I saw during our visit last September, which had Goofy asking "What time is the 3 o'clock parade?" :-) )
Great conversations, y'all.In regards to a review stating the reader DNF because she didn't understand X, which author says you need to keep reading to find out...
If the suspense of finding out X was poorly done or not engaging, then I'm not going to read the rest of the book to find out. But that's just me. Someone else might love that kind of writing, which is why it's important to have it in the review.
Whoa, calm down everyone.I was simply trying to contribute to the discussion - something I probably won't do again - and using general examples from my experience.
If you read my comment, you'll see that I have no problem with her hating and abandoning the book.I also don't believe she would enjoy the book any more had she read to the end. My book has coarse language, violence, drug use etc. She listed her favourite books as romance, historical romance and the Bible. This is what I mean by "not for you". I'm not saying she had no right to dislike the book, be offended, whatever, and maybe this is a subjective point on my part. I find romance, Sci fi or fantasy is not for me. If I had cause to read it and found it so, I would probably abandon it and leave it at that, but that's just me. This point could no doubt start a new thread on its own. My mother used the term "not for me" when she read the book, maybe that's why it's front of mind.
My issues with my particular review was that my reviewer made statements that were inaccuarate. She wasn't saying she she couldn't understand or follow the plot but rather, made what I believe to be inaccurate statements.
Here's an excerpt.
On top of that, Julian Jones, the so-called brilliant journalist, didn't write his news stories to include the "Who," "What," "Where," "When" and "Why" taught in any journalism class. (Untrue but not essential) Worse, the reader is supposed to believe Julian could get away with writing anything,(Journalists have no burden of proof, journalistic fabrication is not uncommon) with no proof to back it up,(Untrue. this is carefully set up and explained within the first 30%) and cause a cop to do whatever he wanted.(Explained in exposition) We're to believe these characters can drink and do drugs to excess,(true) but women still love them,(untrue) people still believe them (untrue) and no behavior is unacceptable. (Untrue. There are clear consequences)
These weren't the only problems she had with the book and she did make several good points which I took on board and I expressed my gratitute to her in a message. I also addressed the same issues I have here. I have amended the book accordingly, so in that way the review ws helpful
And I completely agree with you on the point of generic 5 star reviews. These help no-one. I did send a message to a reviewer who gave me a five star review - my one, bad experience of a review swap - and he told me he read it but I'm not convinced.
Hope this clears everything up.
Chris wrote: "On top of that, Julian Jones, the so-called brilliant journalist, didn't write his news stories to include the "Who," "What," "Where," "When" and "Why" taught in any journalism class. (Untrue but not essential) Worse, the reader is supposed to believe Julian could get away with writing anything,(Journalists have no burden of proof, journalistic fabrication is not uncommon) with no proof to back it up,(Untrue. this is carefully set up and explained within the first 30%) and cause a cop to do whatever he wanted.(Explained in exposition) We're to believe these characters can drink and do drugs to excess,(true) but women still love them,(untrue) people still believe them (untrue) and no behavior is unacceptable. (Untrue. There are clear consequences)"As a former journalist, I can tell you that journalistic fabrication is not even *remotely* common amongst actual, ethical practitioners of the craft. In fact, if you are going to publish something, you had better be able to prove its veracity lest you find yourself staring down a libel suit.
And, we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Jeff Costello is me. I make no secret of that. It's the name I registered with Amazon over 10 years ago. He's the main character in my favourite movie. The comment I made was the same one I made on other forums. A burden of proof is not the law.
I could argue the semantics of common, not uncommon but my protagonist fabricating a story is my premise. Believe it. Don't believe it. Entirely up to you.
I've done my best to explain how and why he did it.
Linda wrote: "If I take my car to the mechanic and he puts ATF in the crankcase and windshield wiper solution in the radiator, but then apologizes because he's just an amateur and can't afford to learn how to do it right, should I cut him some slack?"That's not a fair comparison. A better comparison would be if you bought a Ford vehicle but the name was spelled FROD. aha Would you ask for your money back over a mispelled word that has nothing to do with the operation of the vehicle? Thats how I view mispekked words, if it doesnt effect the story then the heck with it. You read a book for it's plot, not it's spelling.
I was born in the US, but with spanish parents and no friends and I only completed 9 years of school, so yes I will not be perfect in my spelling or grammar. I don't think points should be taken off because of my lack of education or knowledge in the field of writing. I always say that for my first book The Hopeless Christiantic Is pretty good, considering my education and lack of expirience and knowledge in the field.
If you or anyone can not understand the troubles and struggles an indie author goes through and can not get by a few grammatical errors then simply put, you shouldn't read self published books.
It's like saying a movie stinks because of one bad actor. Sure it may bother a little, but you can't let one bad fruit ruin the entire crop.....whoa I just made that up haha..I forgot my point but there it is.
And to whoever it was. I've spoken with publishers, in person and over the phone. Most everyone who's in the industry I've spoken to have said virtually the same thing. The story is good, but it needs to be longer (less then 50,000 words) and correct the mistakes.....and of course dish out $3,000 :(
David wrote: "Linda wrote: "If I take my car to the mechanic and he puts ATF in the crankcase and windshield wiper solution in the radiator, but then apologizes because he's just an amateur and can't afford to l..."THAT is not a fair comparison. I am sorry you did not have things easy and are lacking education and knowledge, so try not to take any of what I'm about to say personally.
Are. You. Serious? The BEST comparison to be made when comparing a book to a car or truck is that the spelling is pretty much like the nuts and bolts that hold the whole damn thing together. When everything's in place, you don't notice a single one. When a couple or even a dozen are loose or missing, it's still generally not noticeable but when every other bolt or screw is lose, the whole thing starts falling apart.
Relly? Wtf? I could wryte a bock liek his by yur lojic and no body shuld be complaneing.
And I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of the people on this site are authors, and a lot of them are independently published. You saying none of them get you because we believe a book should be published with as few errors as possible is practically spitting in their faces. First off, no book is going to be perfect upon publication. The English language is so complex that I'll estimate maybe a couple hundred people across the planet actually understand every nuance of the language. But, when books are published, indie or big business, the readers have every right to expect them to be held to a basic standard of spelling, grammar, punctuation and with a basic understanding of how the language works. If you can't write a book under those basic standards, you have no right to complain when people write reviews for your work and call you out on all of it. To finish it off, if you can't write a book to those basic standards, AND you can't deal with being called out on it, maybe you simply shouldn't be trying to call yourself a writer. Period.
I found this post today, which is quite pertinent to the discussion.http://writerunboxed.com/2013/02/27/2...
An excellent article, with fascinating comments.
David wrote: "Linda wrote: "I don't think points should be taken off because of my lack of education or knowledge in the field of writing."Prepare to be disappointed.
In seriousness, this is why you hire an editor. I have read several lovely books where English is not the speaker's native language. I read a delightful memoir by a gentleman who left school in the 8th grade because his father passed away and, as the eldest son, he had the burden of looking after the family. In all cases, beyond colloquialisms, the language, spelling etc., were all standard. Why?
Editors.
Leonie wrote: "I found this post today, which is quite pertinent to the discussion.http://writerunboxed.com/2013/02/27/2...
An excellent article, with fascinating comments."
Great article! Thank you for sharing. :-)
Linda wrote: "Just the description contains multiple errors. How many people do you think are going to read "ramped" and know that the word you really wanted is "rampant"? How many other, less easily deciphered errors are in the book? We're not talking about "few grammatical errors." You have bunches of them in a single paragraph."This brings up another, related point. Your website, blog, etc., are part of your professional face to the world.
If your website, blog, etc., are rife with errors, I can only presume that your books are, too.
*Especially* if you (general you) are complaining that you can't afford an editor and should be given some sort of a free pass as a result. A badly written website/blog pretty much guarantees that the only pass you'll get from me is as I move on to someone else's work when I'm buying books.
I guess what I'm saying is that we, as authors, should have enough damned pride in our work to make sure that our websites, etc., that represent us as a *brand* tell the world that we're good at what we do. I can't speak for anyone else, but I work my ass off to put out a professional, polished product and really have no desire to be tarred by the "lazy indie who doesn't bother to edit" brush because some people want to make excuses for *their* lack of professionalism and expect to be cut some kind of a break because "it's my first book/I couldn't afford an editor/English is not my native language."
None of that flies with me. Be as angry with me as you want. Ford would not let something out of its factory that read "Frod." They have quality control standards. They know that it affects their branding and their product. The same thing applies to *us* as authors. If you do not understand that your website, your blog and everything else is part of your brand, I strongly suggest you read up on how to run a small business -- because that is exactly what you are doing, and you are damaging your brand and reputation before the customer even reads a single page if you think these things don't matter.
/rant
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Books mentioned in this topic
Complete Plain Words (other topics)The Hopeless Christiantic (other topics)
The Disney Way: Harnessing the Management Secrets of Disney in Your Company (other topics)
Shōgun (other topics)
Some Brief Advice for Indie Authors (other topics)
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I seriously considered using this up-thread, but decided I'd banged my head against a particular wall long enough ...