Ender’s Game
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How do you deal with Ender's Game?
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I would guess that Ender's Game will be read when Twilight is forgotten.
You said to be nice . . . So I'm not going to say anything . . . Except for this . . .
This comment system needs likes or something like that. Damn facebook habits.
I think that like many books perspectives change when you read it at different times in your life. When I read it when I was 12 or 13, I saw Ender as struggling to win and being able to win in an intelligent way. I brushed some of the more disturbing parts away as those students being bad or evil (I've always been a good vs evil story lover). I was empathetic with the situation with the buggers. It was a tragic beauty. The government control was a part of the book that just seemed like "the Man" kind of feel. They are evil, etc. Reading it as an adult, obviously there is a different perspective. The government/military control of Ender and the rest of Earth is astounding. While Ender represents the best in us, he has also be bred with a killer survival instinct. He is lead to believe that if no one helps him, he will not survive. This is exasperated by his siblings, specifically by Peter.
The war changes from simply a tragic, beautiful, end to a situation that questions morality in a way that is more frightening to an adult.
So for me, I think that this book is good for YA. Those students that understand it, will be pushed to think more about themselves and their surroundings. Those that don't, get to enjoy an exciting book. Battle school is pretty awesome. I also don't believe that books should be banned or challenged, etc so that might bias me there.
Finally, despite Orson Scott Card's beliefs, I believe he is a masterful storyteller. I have always loved everything that he writes and that might be because there is always a question of what is humanity in everything he writes. But at the same time, I choose not to care much about him as a person (aka following his blog, twitter, etc) but rather as an amazing Sci/fi writer.
great book! i'm currently reading it again, and am so happy i came across this thread. only great books can inspire such thoughtful dialogue. a BIG thanks to everyone for sharing!
Michael wrote: "I really liked Ender's game but I struggle with the fact that Card is a hard core Republican and I feel dirty buying or supporting someone who's beliefs are so far astray from my own."I'm pretty square on the liberal side and even though i encountered this book when i was young and untainted by political views one way or the other (4th grade) i still do not think an authors political views should get in the way of a appreciating a good piece of art. i honestly didnt find out how diffrent his views were from mine until like last year and i found it more funny then anything, i don't really understand your disgust.
It left me hopeful. It kind of reminded me of the after effects of the wars against the Native Americans. We destroyed many cultures, yet in the end many of the tribes were able to rebuild and were able to prosper again. There is always hope that tomorrow will be a better day than yesterday.
Marc wrote: "Michael wrote: "I really liked Ender's game but I struggle with the fact that Card is a hard core Republican and I feel dirty buying or supporting someone who's beliefs are so far astray from my ow..."I've stated that I enjoyed the story and I'm not opposed to reading more of his work. I just refuse to buy any of his books because I don't want to support someone who most likely gives money to the LDS church which supports anti-gay rights movements. I can enjoy the work of the man without supporting his agenda, that was suppose to be my point.
Артём wrote: "Elise wrote: "I've often seen Ender's Game labelled as YA fiction, and for the very reasons that are being discussed here that seems to me to be so totally wrong. While it may not ever reach the c..."If you think Young Adults can't read about tough, deep subjects you should read The Fault in Our Stars by John Green. In one chapter a character talks about several philosophers. This book is written for young adults. Not all YA books are about vampires.
I used my copy to chip away at the old crusties under the rim of the toilet bowl. you know what? that doesn't really add anything to the conversation, does it? anyway, what i got from the book was that adults are shitty and control what the young know and don't know.3/5 book. overrated. beginning to show its age. oh, and some of you, leave the author's personal politics out of a story discussion.
Matthew wrote: "... overrated. beginning to show its age..."You know what? that doesn't really add anything to the conversation either.
Why do you think the book's overrated and beginning to show its age?
I can see someone thinking that... some of the tech shown as 'futuristic' (like the monitoring of the kids, the game at battle school, the remote flying of the ships. I remember when I first read it thinking Locke and Demothenes could never actually gain any influence as anomyous 'internet' personalities... boy was I wrong.While some of the things are a little closer to 'real' now, I think enough of it isn't that it still nicely qualifies as futuristc.
Don't focus on that look at it as a book about gifted kids. It reads much differently. But as far as your thoughts go, that is life, war is part of life and while we might not like it, the strong do what they have to do to survive. What happened to the enemy was no different than what our countries all try to do during a war, including making the enemy seem like lesser beings.
I thought it was an alright book overall. I get the books messages, one being fighting your inner demons; which Ender was trying to become more like Valentine than Peter, but inneviatably failed; at least on a sub concious level. The book also expressed how a people can change, and we often destroy it before we realized it has changed.
I really liked the book but by the end i felt like my brain had been sucked out with a straw. :P
Yes, and, given Card's subsequent ranting about homosexuals and other crazy stuff, I completely buy into Radford's contentions about the book; I read the story in Analog and refuse to read the "novel" (won't give Card or his ilk a penny).
The short story was, in my opinion, pretty darned awful.
The only thing that gave Card any real traction back then was his win of the Campbell award for best new writer in '78 - and that win comes under a cloud of uncertainty: whole swaths of the country never received their mail-in ballots (remember, pre-internet), meaning that none of the nominees from the east coast were properly represented in the voting.
Once the movie based on the book is a flop, I think we can all thankfully say goodbye to Mr. Card, and good riddance. If I had kids and they assigned Ender's Game to them for a school read, I'd pull my kid from the class - I wouldn't want him or her to have such awful, hate-filled, revenge-fantasy-wish-fulfillment ideas put into their head by a raging homophobe.
Tony wrote: "I only brought up the Hitler issue above 'cause it seems to have taken root from an article written by Elaine Radford, right after the publication of the original Ender's Game novella, on the subje..."
Taken by itself, the book raises profound questions about the interaction between human intelligence and military/political policy. We are not machines, ultimately, even when bred that way and indoctrinated to be that way. The book is very violent at times and the Ender character takes a bit of a non-chalant, practical approach to violence that can be off-putting. But in the end, the lessons learned really result in uplifting the positive aspects of human existence and exalt the existence of love in our lives. For those who have read the book, its the philosophy of Peter versus that of Valentine (Ender's siblings).So even though I struggled through much of the book, because of the coldness I saw in the characters, in the final analysis the book satisfied on an emotional level. Ultimately, Valentine's side wins.
I just read it, and it is rightly considered a classic.
I thoroughly enjoyed the book and was quite astonished by the ending. It felt to me that Ender's empathy was acknowledged but never fully displayed throughout his training, other than tactically to get ahead of enemies. The building of the giant that the buggers left for ender feels so poignant. The moment where he enters is quite terrifying for the reader, but ender has been through the ringer, his fear is meaningless by that point. What really twists my brain is the relationship between the computer that generates ender's fairyland, ender himself and the hive queen. Within the story, both the buggers and the computer could access his thoughts were trying to influence them. This is happening simultaneously to his military training which exerts a more heavy handed, far less subtle but very effective influence on ender, that he himself is aware of. I really need to reread the last few chapters to explore this and to try and understand how this three-way relationship influenced the outcomes. For me the book has a strong theme of nature vs nurture (I'm a geneticist I love that kind of discussion) .I finished the book two days ago and to cope I've been flicking through these discussions and wondering do I want to read any sequels that might either dispel or enhance the magic I felt when reading it.
Sarah J wrote: "I thoroughly enjoyed the book and was quite astonished by the ending. It felt to me that Ender's empathy was acknowledged but never fully displayed throughout his training, other than tactically to..."I think you'd really enjoy "Speaker for the Dead", given your scientific bent. I can't recommend the other two that follow.
I also think you'd enjoy "Ender's Shadow", both for getting to relive "Ender's Game" from a different viewpoint, and, well, genetics come into play too!
Sarah J:The sequels are definitely different.... I'd actually recommend you read 'Ender in Exile' next if you want to continue the series... it's the next book in the story chronologically.. it fits between Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead.
I actually didn't like the 'Shadow' series... it's basically a re-telling of Ender's Game through Bean's eyes... it deals more with the politics of Card's future Earth more than anything.
The way I deal with ENDER'S GAME is by focusing on The Game. At one time or another I've owned most of the sequels, but the only one that I could really get into was ENDER'S SHADOW; and even that one, I had to skip over most of the non-game parts. But I've re-read The Game parts of those two novels many times. I like the idea of retelling the same story from another character's POV. I may do that with one of my own science fiction novels. But I don't want my sequel to be more authoritative than the original, which is the case with ENDER'S SHADOW. @hg47
For me the point of the book was about learning and understanding. Humanity is still destroying what it doesn't understand and will go on doing so, but one person can make a difference.
Philip wrote: "For me the point of the book was about learning and understanding. Humanity is still destroying what it doesn't understand and will go on doing so, but one person can make a difference."You may be right, Philip. For me the philosophical and sociological "message" of ENDER'S GAME is secondary to just enjoying the story of "the game." But let's not forget that the Buggers attacked us first (because they couldn't understand us); which put Humanity (or as I like to say, Huwomanity) into a zero-sum game: either we survive or they survive. I do like the issue of adversaries who can't even communicate with each other; and the Bugger Queen's attempts to communicate (with Ender, if I am understanding the story correctly) just gave him bad dreams. @hg47
How to deal with Ender's Game? Read the rest of the series. It deals in-depth with the emotions xenocide caused in Ender and society as a whole; and attempts to reconcile that.
Elise wrote: "Clint wrote: "Elise wrote: "I'm actually not trying to denigrate all YA fiction here, some of it is very good, but some of it is insulting to even mildly intelligent young people (sparkly vampire b..."I must say i have no problem reading YA fiction/fantasy even if it does include sparkling vampires. If you do your homework you can see that she in no way intended her books to have a message she simply wrote out of pleasure and someone gave her a chance to entertain other people by publishing it. I dont understand why people put a limit on writting or fanatasy for that matter ITS A BOOK let it go. You didnt like, you didnt like it. Simlple. Move one, but dont use it as a negative comparison unless you have a real reason. The fact that it ended up under the YA catagory is out of her hands. But it did and some of us enjoyed the work that followed.
Besides in no way shape or form did i read Enders Game and thought of twilight O_o. Really?? it seems to me people are just itching to find a new reason to "hate" it.
Back to the topic i agree that its all psychological. You take the book and its meanings as you interpret them. I have no problem rereading it over and over again.
Your comment..."Sorry if I sound like a nut, but I'm just wondering how everybody took it. :) A lot of people read it as a sort of action adventure, but I don't think that's what it is - Orson Scott Card said it's "Not a sports book, it's a book about human relationships" - and so it was a lot harder to read when I realized that the second time through. It's almost as if this truth is too raw to handle! lol"You should read the next 3 books. OSC originally wrote Ender's Game for adults but it came off as a young adult book. The next books (In Ender's Series not Bean's) take a step back from action and adventure and really get into relationships and probably get more into OSC's beliefs. In this thought they are alot more like the "second time" you read Ender's Game. And just to clarify there is still some action in the next three books. A lot of people said they were boring and drawn out but when you get into the charectrs and psycology of these books they are phenomenal.
Enders game is a great book. But I totally disagree with the ethics of the possible government we could end up with. Its just wrong, depriving an 11 yr. old of most of his life just so he becomes a killing machine is just plain wrong.
I think that at the heart of the book is the issue of what authority figures did to Ender. They stole him from his family (which admittedly, he wasn't close to, but still), deliberately alienated him from his peers, and forced him to commit genocide against his will. And on top of that, he is promptly exiled from Earth so that he would become an incendiary piece in earthly political power struggles. It was never really Ender's game, and he would have never been able to destroy the Formics if he had known what he was doing. I also want to say that I don't think an author's political or religious views should be any reason not to read a book. I'm buying the story, not its creator, and beyond the act of creation I don't think one has much to do with the other. Nor should readers read only what they already agree with; it is possible to understand but disagree with a different worldview.
I also agree with teo
Scott wrote: "I think a lot of people missed the point. Like a lot of SF stories, this is a cautionary tale. This is what could happen if we go to extremes. You have children waging a war without really realizin..."I have disagree here. The dude posts his opinions constantly in his public forum, The Ornery American. He wants you to know his opinions. In general, his opinions are shitty and wrong. The guy is definitely off his nut. Despite this, Ender's Game is one of my favorite books, even though the author is a bit of a twat-hammer. So, I guess I kind of agree with the last part of your comment. Except for the judging part. I'm pretty comfortable with that.
George wrote: "Scott wrote: "I think a lot of people missed the point. Like a lot of SF stories, this is a cautionary tale. This is what could happen if we go to extremes. You have children waging a war without r..."Hey, George!
ENDER'S GAME is one of my favorite books as well. I also love the game parts of ENDER'S SHADOW. I own and have tried to read several of the other sequels, but they don't really work for me. I have no clue what Card's opinions are, or how whacky they are (I'm a bit of a nut-job myself); but those two novels have given me much pleasure over the years with many re-reads (just the "game" parts for SHADOW). I don't care what Card intended. I don't care what it all means. I care that it's an awesome story written in a way the moves me and locks me into the tale, and SHADOW gives added detail. @hg47
Stephen wrote: "Your comment..."Sorry if I sound like a nut, but I'm just wondering how everybody took it. :) A lot of people read it as a sort of action adventure, but I don't think that's what it is - Orson Scot..."I totally agree with you.
I love the book and the perspective it brings to the concept of protecting what you hold dear. Ender does everything because there's one person on Earth who truly loves him, and he knows it. Even though she willingly manipulates him into torturing himself in order to become the general that the Earth needs, the two siblings love each other more than anything else.A few random thoughts. I love how Card predicts the rise of the internet. I also think, however, that humanity pushed to the wall would have been more open to experiments like Anton's, which is what created Bean.
In the preface for some of his later books in the series, Card writes that Ender's Game was intended as a YA book, but when he saw how many adults loved it and realized that some questions were left unanswered, the sequels were directed at adults. I actually prefer books that leave questions unanswered, and although Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide were good, they weren't of the same caliber as Ender's Game. This book made Card's career, literally. The ending was ironic and oxymoronic, but I am content with that.
Speaking of the other books, what do people think of the Bean series as opposed to the Ender series?
I was always fascinated with the Bean character. I find his situation a bit more precarious than Ender's, and the character more complex. That being said, I haven't finished the Bean series. Or either series, for that matter.
I have multiple problems with Ender's Game: 1) its unrelenting Neo-Con world view, 2) its insidious use of of bullying upon Ender as a cheap rhetorical device to justify its militaristic wrath of God revenge jerk-off fantasy, 3) its abysmal prose. I'd also suggest that you don't have to scratch too deep to detect OSC's homophobia and Red-or-dead paranoia. All of which I could forgive (I don't need to agree with a novel to like it) if he could write - but he can't. Even for a SF novel this is poorly written crap. In defence of the novel: OSC actually gets the internet right in Ender's Game! Something William Gibson utterly fails to do. Also, while I don't like the novel I have to give it points for having a great concept and for at least having something to say. I just don't like the way it's being said.
My overriding feeling from reading Ender's Game is its sheer insidiousness... I find its use of Ender's bullying a nasty way to tap into a reader's own feelings of personal injustice at school or whatever. It's a nasty novel by a nasty writer.
Michaela wrote: "Glen wrote: "In the preface for some of his later books in the series, Card writes that Ender's Game was intended as a YA book, but when he saw how many adults loved it and realized that some quest..."Hey, Michaela! You are right! According to what I have read over the years, ENDER'S GAME wasn't even the story he wanted to write, just a story he got distracted by and sucked into, and sort of Had To Finish. When, all the time during the writing of ENDER'S GAME, there was this Other Story that he was Chomping At The Bit to get to and Write.
This story that Card got distracted by turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to his writing career. @hg47
Kip wrote: "I have multiple problems with Ender's Game: 1) its unrelenting Neo-Con world view, 2) its insidious use of of bullying upon Ender as a cheap rhetorical device to justify its militaristic wrath of G..."Hey, Kip!
I’m surprised that you, with your “Incurable Romantic Seeks Dirty Filthy Whore” GoodReads avi, would come down so hard on ENDER’S GAME by playing the Politically Correctness Card (pun intended). Probably, I’m going to get into trouble for commenting on your post; I acknowledge that everyone is entitled to their opinion; I further acknowledge that my own opinions are flawed and biased, and not the better sort of sentiments that right thinking people should have. For example, I rank ENDER’S GAME #5 on my list of all-time favorite science fiction novels. “Bad, Harvey! Bad!”
1) Confess that even after Googling “Neo-Con” and wasting a quarter hour on different sites trying to make sense of it, all I can glean is that it’s some sort of intellectual conservatism that you think is an ultra-evil thing. I don’t care. I love the ENDER’S GAME story, and I love identifying with Ender.
2) You may want to edit your #2 to remove the double “of of” -- “its insidious use of of bullying upon Ender as a cheap rhetorical device to justify its militaristic wrath of God revenge jerk-off fantasy” – Don’t feel bad, Kip, I do that all the time; probably there is an even more serious grammar glitch in my reply. I have no clue what you meant by “militaristic wrath of God revenge jerk-off fantasy” but I did understand “bullying.” From my P.O.V. bullying in ENDER’S GAME is a semi-accurate presentation of the way children interact with each other; I don’t see it as a rhetorical device, but rather as necessary plot structure: any novel about children forming armies in some ideal way without any bullying would quickly lose me as a reader because I would be unable to suspend disbelief.
3) Well, personally, I like the prose. I think the prose of ENDER’S GAME is among the best of his work. That’s just me. As to “OSC's homophobia and Red-or-dead paranoia” I only hinted at lesbianism in my latest SF novel (does that make me homophobic?) and completely eliminated the male sex in the future (does that make me poster boy for the Female-Or-Dead movement?). @hg47
I love this book because it made me revisit and evaluate a lot of chapters in my life. While Ender’s Game is a story that takes part in the future, the situations that Ender faces are representative of the type of situations that many of us have dealt with in real life. As a matter of fact, I had an identical experience to that of the scene where Ender gets bullied when he first attends school. And like him, I had a difficult time dealing with the ethics of my actions in response to the situation. I think Ender’s game is a wonderful book that brings forth some of the most profound and complex of ethical conundrums for the reader’s consideration. The best part is that these conundrums are disguised in a wonderful and entertaining story.
Giacomo wrote: "I love this book because it made me revisit and evaluate a lot of chapters in my life. While Ender’s Game is a story that takes part in the future, the situations that Ender faces are representativ..."Hey, Giacomo!
Concur with your take on ENDER'S GAME. I also had to deal with a bit of bullying in school. @hg47
Bill wrote: "How do I deal with it...I pick the book up.
I read it to the end.
I put the book down.
...oh, how do I deal with the issues in the book!!! Oh, okay...
First off, they thought they were in a w..."
Yes, yes, yes! I agree with every word. I have not read the others in the series - other than Ender's Shadow - but i intend to. I think Orson Scott Card is a genius who deeply understands human nature. Personally, I think Ender's Game is an amazing look at how by manipulating the truth, we can control people. But at the same time, the human spirit can never be truly suppressed. Ender's Game is definitely a book I can reread over and over again.
How did I deal with this book? I left it on the plane because it was painful to read. Not my cup of tea.
Fred wrote: "How did I deal with this book? I left it on the plane because it was painful to read. Not my cup of tea."What was particularly painful to read?
Stephen: I found the book to be crafted for bright yet outcast kids. Perhaps, when I was younger I would have cared about the kid. Part of it is personal. Another part of it is that no one is special. We all end up in the grave, food for worms.
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When we love we do not truly judge, we seek to empathize, and come to agreement.
What I see now by these comments is how everyone finds depth in the book related to what is important to them, be it psycology, politics, religion, gay rites, etc.
However any way you look at it the main thrust of the book is empathy and understanding. The breading of a strong but compassionate genius who can save the world but could not do it with out fully empathizing with the enemy.
Any polarization or preference comes from the cultural context upon which it is built. For example, gay marriage, the premise of laws and philosophical thought are focused on breading and genetic advancement over personal preference. they may reflect the authors views, but it is entirely besides the point.