How do you deal with Ender's Game?

[Catching]

I had a more or less love/hate relationship with this book, mostly centered around the fact that the main character is a kind of wish fulfillment revenge fantasy aimed at kids and young adults who have been bullied. (Ender's actions toward other kids who are bullying him is generally approved of within the narrative, and Ender is generally held to be an natural expert at human interactions even while being an "outsider" because of his intelligence.)

[Tim]

Have you read the sequel, "Speaker for the Dead"? As it addresses the issues you are grappling with.

[Sheila]

That's what I was told by a fan a couple days ago (I have the same response Rena does). But I evaluate books on their own impact - not to be judged by a later entry in a series.

[Bill]

How do I deal with it...

I pick the book up.

I read it to the end.

I put the book down.

...oh, how do I deal with the issues in the book!!! Oh, okay...

First off, they thought they were in a war. They were losing that war, so they took what they felt was the best course to win that war: breed a super-general, one with the necessary ruthlessness to do what needed to be done, but at the same time with the compassion not to just toss away the lives of his men just because he could.

I don't get the whole "revenge fantasy wish fulfillment" argument. His behavior wasn't condoned so much as conditioned into him. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to win the war.

Also, it was made very clear that if he had known what he had done to the boys he fought with, it would have destroyed him (much as the knowledge that he had destroyed the buggers hurt him deeply later on).

The fact that the buggers weren't actually an enemy to start with wasn't apparent to anyone until after the Xenocide plowed through them like a tornado through a trailer park, and it was only apparent to Ender because of the playground he found on the bugger world.

[Isabel]

!!:D
I completely loved the book. I saw it as a growing up ( talk about a harsh childhood) but I did take note of the different kinds of relationships he made as well as some of the controversial topics that Ender had to face and pick sides on. Truly a great book.

[Tim]

BTW, I think of it as a psychology book.

[Link]

Two words for me--cognitive dissonance. I find myself applauding (or disliking) a character's actions, and then almost immediately feeling, well, just a little uncomfortable with my reaction. And I really love any work that makes me feel, makes me question who I am, or what I believe (and why I believe it). A favorite. Glad you found (and liked) it!

[Elise]

I've often seen Ender's Game labelled as YA fiction, and for the very reasons that are being discussed here that seems to me to be so totally wrong. While it may not ever reach the classic status of something like Catch-22 it has a lot of the same anti-war feel.

I have no problem reconciling my liking for the character of Ender with his actions. I think that he is so young and innocent that he truly is completely duped by the adults around him. He really does think that this is all one big computer game. He's been taught to win his games at all cost and like a good obedient little boy (he's barely more, after all) he goes through with it right to the end.

And while the deaths of his two bullies are shocking, there is no intention to kill in him and the message seems very clear that the adults are deliberately placing him in a situation where he feels that "it's him or me". Human beings fight for their own survival without the normal level of rational thought when placed in a situation like that.

I always took it to be a book about a child desperate for approval from authority figures. As Tim said, its very much about psychology - everything is happening inside the head of whichever character currently has the POV.

[Артём]

Elise wrote: "I've often seen Ender's Game labelled as YA fiction, and for the very reasons that are being discussed here that seems to me to be so totally wrong. While it may not ever reach the classic status of something like Catch-22 it has a lot of the same anti-war feel."

Are you saying "anti-war is bad for young adults", or what?

[Elise]

What I'm saying is the book has far more depth and complexity than your average YA book - compare it to something with sparkly vampires! Seems a shame that it is often seen as something aimed at 12-year-olds. I really can't see it that way myself.

[Артём]

Elise wrote: "What I'm saying is the book has far more depth and complexity than your average YA book - compare it to something with sparkly vampires! Seems a shame that it is often seen as something aimed at 1..."

How can you like this book if you consider young adults less capable of grasping some "depths"? It must feel very unrealistic to you, no?

[Tony]

What do you guys think of the implications that have been made of Card having written the novel as an apology for Hitler? I like to believe this is not the case, but now that I've read some of the arguments for it, it has tarnished my favorite sci-fi novel of all time.

If this is too political or an improper place to ask this, I apologize. I've just been wrestling with these implications for a while.

[Tim]

People love to fabricate issues so they can be righteous. It's really much better to ignore such things.

[Bill]

Tony wrote: "What do you guys think of the implications that have been made of Card having written the novel as an apology for Hitler?"

I think someone is smoking too much of the wacky tobacky if that's what they got out of Ender's Game. Where is this published, and can we firebomb them now to save the rest of the world from their insanity?

I don't see how the book in any way, shape or form condones the kind of genocide Hitler engaged in. In fact, Ender felt remorse over his role in the defeat of the buggers; an allegorical Hitler would have partied his butt off, and maybe had some lampshades made from bugger exoskeletons.

I'm just baffled that anyone could have come up with such crap.

[Elise]

There are certain criticisms of Card that are difficult to argue down so readily (homophobia being the most consistent and obvious in certain books) but an apologist for Hitler?

Think about the wider context and the whole message of the book (via the Hive Queen at the end) - Michaela said it above - "if we had kissed, it would have been the miracle to make us human in each other's eyes; instead we killed each other."

Ender is almost destroyed when he realises it wasn't all a game, he only survives it because he is so young he still has a tiny core of resilience left.

[Catching]

Tim wrote: "Have you read the sequel, "Speaker for the Dead"? As it addresses the issues you are grappling with."

Not satisfactorily IMO. The issue I was grappling with was Card's penchant for isolated iconoclastic geniuses that no one really understands (except the reader who is meant to sympathize with the iconoclastic genius) and who are always, always right.

[Catching]

Elise wrote: "What I'm saying is the book has far more depth and complexity than your average YA book - compare it to something with sparkly vampires! Seems a shame that it is often seen as something aimed at 1..."

...When someone starts talking about how unsubtle YA is, I am tempted to throw Christopher Stasheff novels at them. Or John Ringo novels. (joke) May I suggest Megan Whalen Turner's Queen's Thief books as an extremely subtle and awesome example of YA?

[Catching]

Michaela wrote: ""Revenge fantasy wish fulfillment"?!

Really?!"

Yes, really. Ender is every smart kid who has ever been bullied and misunderstood. You are meant to sympathize with him, and be gleeful when he "out thinks" his bullies and fights back. When I was much younger (and being bullied for being in "special ed") Ender's game was very much revenge fantasy for me!

[Elise]

Rena wrote: "Elise wrote: "What I'm saying is the book has far more depth and complexity than your average YA book - compare it to something with sparkly vampires! Seems a shame that it is often seen as someth..."

I'm actually not trying to denigrate all YA fiction here, some of it is very good, but some of it is insulting to even mildly intelligent young people (sparkly vampire being a case in point - though a very lucrative one). The point I was trying to make (and doing a very bad job of!) is that just because a book's protagonist is a child should not mean it is automatically lumped in with children's fiction.

I don't know about anyone else, but I was/am far more capable of reflecting and reading for the underlying meaning of a book once I had a bit of life experience than when I was 12/13/14 (the roughly typical age I tend to assume YA is aimed at, for all it is far more widely read). I remember still seeing the world as very black and white when I was that age and so many of the issues in this thread are all about one's reactions to the subtle moral shades of grey in this book.

(Some YA books do try to look at such subtleties, but they are the intelligent exceptions rather than the rule. I suppose that is true for many adult books too - so, fair enough, I withdraw all statements that could be seen as derogatory towards YA fiction. Though I still think that this (and many other books) are a very different experience (even if equally valuable) in your teens/pre-teens, than in your twenties or thirties, for instance.

[Catching]

Michaela wrote: "I think Ender is used and out-thought far more than he out-thinks anybody. But okay... lol :P"

And at what point does that invalidate my point. Oh, wait, it doesn't. You're meant to sympathize with Ender over any other character's viewpoint, even when Ender does something like decide that he is going to "end" a bullying situation by attacking someone first. The series is pretty much geared toward "Ender is always right and misunderstood, pobre Ender."

[Olga]

I thought that the end was actually not a bad one - the understanding between two worlds was achieved and the buggers trusted Ender to take care of their future. So it could have been so much worse...

[Tony]

I only brought up the Hitler issue above 'cause it seems to have taken root from an article written by Elaine Radford, right after the publication of the original Ender's Game novella, on the subject. It has now evidently become a hotly debated issue around the net.

I'm not condoning this train of thought, I was just curious if anyone else had any thoughts on the subject.

[Clint]

Elise wrote: "I'm actually not trying to denigrate all YA fiction here, some of it is very good, but some of it is insulting to even mildly intelligent young people (sparkly vampire being a case in point - though a very lucrative one..."

The first time I read Ender's Game I was somewhere in the age range of 9-12. I have read it uncounted times since. I can certainly appreciate the fact that I understand far more now than I ever possibly could when I was younger and reading this book. But I suppose that leaves the question of whether the age system used to grade books are modeled after the movie system or board game system?

In movies the age allowed is based solely on how much negative content is contained within (violence, language, sex, etc.) If this is how the books are graded then with only small argument is Ender's Game placed correctly in YA. Now, board games use a system judging the average age at which a person can comprehend the rules and understand the motivation of the game (which usually translates to "what age can the CHILD comprehend..."). In other words it is based on how much a person understands. So if we were to grade books on this system (which would be supremely difficult) then I can see how there would be some merit to Ender's Game being more than YA fiction.

Here's the thing. I read this young, in approximately the YA-age bracket, and though I didn't FULLY appreciate (And to be honest, probably STILL don't fully appreciate) the intricacies and ramifications resultant from the book's details I still enjoyed it young and do now as well. It has always forced me to ponder some of these same question that have been brought up in this thread and many other questions. I haven't always come to conclusions but it has triggered introspection (and admittedly I've considered those "subtle moral shades of gray" now more than ever before.)

So basically, Elise, I fully agree with your whole post to which I'm replying. (And frankly no one has yet explained to me why Bella "fell in love" with some guy because he was stalking her. Oh, it gives me the creeps to think that my daughter might read something like that and think that it portrays real love! Or my son, and have him think that is how to engage a relationship!)

BTW I sincerely appreciate you're willingness and ability to take a second look at what you have written. Typically, I detest reading threads because it so often is littered with comments by those who are unwilling to even look at what they had written from any view but their own and too rarely allow that their previous assumptions were made out of the misinterpretation or lack of information. So, again, thank you! It's refreshing and shows great character!

[Bill]

Tony wrote: "I only brought up the Hitler issue above 'cause it seems to have taken root from an article written by Elaine Radford, right after the publication of the original Ender's Game novella, on the subject."

Once I had the name, I Googled it with Ender's Game and read the "essay" in which she does her comparison. It reads like a hatchet job of a fictional character.

Her reasoning? Hitler killed a lot of non-Aryans; Ender killed the buggers. Ender had a rough childhood; Hitler had a rough childhood. Hitler didn't bang his sister; Ender didn't bang his sister.

Therefore, by her absolutely FLAWLESS logic, Hitler == Ender.

I didn't bang my sister... I must be Hitler, too!!! I don't have a sister, but so what!!! Logic, damnit!!! :-0

After looking at her Wikipedia page, though, I have to say... she's just jealous that she doesn't have the fame Card has from just one novel.

[Elise]

Clint wrote: "Elise wrote: "I'm actually not trying to denigrate all YA fiction here, some of it is very good, but some of it is insulting to even mildly intelligent young people (sparkly vampire being a case in..."

Well it appears they upset an awful lot of people and I really DON'T want to speak badly about YA fiction in such a generalising way, it's unfair. Some of the very best selling are such poorly-written trite trash, but that's true in any genre. (Dan Brown, anybody? *Awaits lynching by Dan Brown fans*)

[Elise]

Err... loosely.

[Erik]

Ender was used by adults, and for all his intelligence he didn't see it coming. That was the point, after all--that if he knew what he was doing, he couldn't actually do it. No one could. But the adults thought it was necessary. They were all mistaken. I don't think the book is anti-war so much as it is about misunderstandings.

As for the Hitler thing--I think some people have taken an irrational dislike to Card because he's a Mormon and has some views that are unpopular in literary circles. There's really nothing to such arguments. The whole point of the book is that the Xenocide was unnecessary.

As for the idea that the book is some sort of adolescent revenge fantasy--I don't think I read the same book they did.

[Barakiel]

I am glad you raised the topic :D
I felt heavy afterward. Hopeful, yes, but mostly heavy with thought or melancholy. I am very much a black and white kind of person which made this book a disconcerting read for me. I think what got to me most was the ending and how unfair everything was toward Ender. It was, bluntly put, a rape of his innocence. On one hand the military was justified, but on the other they weren't. The scales just don't balance out right for me.

There is so much more to think about. I think I'll take a day off before reading the next book, just to mull over some of the ideas and moral dilemmas Card presented.

[Steve]

It's just a story.

[Karen]

I always thought the book was more about how, when you control information, you control what people believe and how they react. If Ender had known that the 'games' were real, would he have participated? Or would he have chosen resistance, sabotage or mutiny? The adults controlled the information he received to maintain their own power over him.

Just goes to show that, no matter how smart you are, if you are depending on someone else for information, you are in their power, whether you realize it or not.

[Joe]

Very interesting thread! I've read Ender's game several times... I'm a huge fan of OSC (even if he does write the same story over and over, it's a great story).

I can see why someone would see it as bullying revenge, but really Ender is MORE bullied by the government... I think its more about 'ends justify the means' than bullying.

You could also look at in the context of 'nature vs. nuture'.. would Ender have been a violent criminal without the military? Or a scientist?

Incidently, it drives me crazy when this book gets called a Young Adult novel. I understand the marketing, Young Adult novels are now marketed to adult women who wouldn't otherwise read sci-fi and fantasy, and it's working, but billing it as a 'fun action in battle school' does the book a great disservice.

[Ben]

Nature is vicious

if you watch wildlife shows on TV animals are remorselessly killing other animals. There are also many types of wildlife going extinct on earth right now.

This book to me struck me as what would happen if America was the first nation to have contact with aliens, they would attack quickly just in case the aliens attacked first.

The thing to consider is why didn't the buggers try to communicate, just because they were attacked they could have kept trying to communicate. Why wouldn't both sides keep trying to communicate and broker peace?

I think the process of training soldiers to be killing machines is quite a concept.

[Bob]

I really liked Ender's game but I struggle with the fact that Card is a hard core Republican and I feel dirty buying or supporting someone who's beliefs are so far astray from my own.

[[deleted user]]

Michael wrote: "I really liked Ender's game but I struggle with the fact that Card is a hard core Republican and I feel dirty buying or supporting someone who's beliefs are so far astray from my own."

Actually, Card is a registered Democrat, but doesn't feel the need to agree with everything the Left does, just as he doesn't agree with everything the Right does. He's actually fairly balanced in his beliefs. He does hold to a couple of beliefs that some would consider extreme, but so does everyone else.

[Bob]

Dave wrote: "Michael wrote: "I really liked Ender's game but I struggle with the fact that Card is a hard core Republican and I feel dirty buying or supporting someone who's beliefs are so far astray from my ow..."

Registered Dem or not, He is against gay marriage, He told people to vote for John McCain in the last Election and he threw his support behind Newt this time around. He is a Republican through and through.

[[deleted user]]

Michael wrote: "Dave wrote: "Michael wrote: "I really liked Ender's game but I struggle with the fact that Card is a hard core Republican and I feel dirty buying or supporting someone who's beliefs are so far astr..."

He's also pro-amnesty for illegal immigrants, a decidedly non-Republican plank. My point is, he's not an ideologue for either party. But I can understand your feelings about it being difficult to support someone who's beliefs differ so much from your own. Especially something as polarizing as gay marriage.

[Joe]

I think OSC's political beliefs are much more about his religion than a political party.

I was a little off-put by his gay marriage remarks/stance as well, but I decided I could happily enjoy a good story without agreeing with the authors political and religious views.

[Bob]

Joe_santoro2099 wrote: "I think OSC's political beliefs are much more about his religion than a political party.

I was a little off-put by his gay marriage remarks/stance as well, but I decided I could happily enjoy a ..."

I do understand that as I've read Ender's Game and enjoyed it, when I read it I did have some idea of his beliefs but still enjoyed the book. However I think in some of his later books his beliefs show up more in his stories. I've decided if I read anymore of his books it will be library copies or borrowed books. I don't want to give money to someone who might use it to further hateful agenda's.

[Tom]

An agenda is not hateful just because it disagrees with your personal beliefs. It's simply a differing viewpoint.

As for Ender's Game, I always thought of it as a story about the power of love and empathy. Ended defeated the Formics so completely because he understood them completely, but in doing so he couldn't help but love them, and if you read the rest of the series, Ender's extraordinary empathy and love drive his actions to restore the Formics and redeem himself.

[Scott]

I think a lot of people missed the point. Like a lot of SF stories, this is a cautionary tale. This is what could happen if we go to extremes. You have children waging a war without really realizing what they are doing and they do it too well.

And I don't think you can really know a writer's personal beliefs and shouldn't like or dislike an entire book because of that. You are being as biased as you claim he is by doing that. Card's beliefs are his business and unless it actually impacts the story, then they are irrelevant. If you are going to judge Card for his beliefs and statements, then you have to judge all of them equally. Do you really want to do that? I don't.

[Joe]

Good point, Scott. While OSC has made his person views public, and they've shown through in some of his other books (Empire comes to mind), they're certainly not on display in Ender's Game.

While I can to some extent understand not wanting to support monetarily someone you feel is promoting ideals you disagree with, I can't see it taking away from your enjoyment of a great book :)

[Robert]

It is hard to keep separate an author's books from the author. That's why I generally don't go out of my way to find out too much about the author. Ender's Game is still a good book, regardless of what I think of the author. It's hard to balance the Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead against the author's enthusiastic support of the Iraq War. The weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist sound like something right out of his books. His position is inconisistent with the ideas in his books, but that doesn't mean the book is bad.

[Amy]

Can I just start by saying that I'm really loving this thread?

What struck me most about this book and series was Ender's empathy and capacity for love. I can't imagine being able to love an enemy so completely as Ender does, but it's one of the things I admire most about him in the series. He's one of those characters that stays with you long after you've finished the book.

I don't agree with the idea of this being a "revenge fantasy wish fullfillment" but it's an interesting view point. While other people in the book might have approved of Ender's actions towards his bullies Ender did not. Seeing Ender's struggle with the consequences of his actions was heart breaking at times. And this struggle continues through the rest of the series as he tries to make amends and come to terms with the choices he made.

The ending is bittersweet and gave me a lot to think about. On the one hand Ender is free from the toils of Battle School and the earth is saved. On the other hand this was accomplished with the genocide of another species. Not an ending I'm happy with.

I think if I had stopped reading the Ender series with Ender's Game I probably wouldn't have loved the book as much as I do, because the ending is unsatisfying. The series as a whole though is wonderful and provides resolution to many of the issues created in Ender's Game.

I was disheartened when I learned of OSC's stance on gay marriage, mainly because I associated him so closely with Ender and Ender's capacity for love. In the end though, it hasn't affected my love of the series.

I have noted though that several people who I've recommended the book to are no longer interested in reading Ender's Game since his views on gay marriage became widely known. I think they're missing out, but I completely understand why they aren't interested in reading his books. It's hard to separate an author's world view from his books, even if you're only seeing a part of that world view.

And while I don't go out and vet my authors and see if they share a similar world view, (who has time for that?), I can understand why people who learn of an author's stance on an issue they disagree with before they read the book might be put off from reading the author's books. I think that's a normal reaction.

[Darcy]

Joe_santoro2099 wrote: "I think OSC's political beliefs are much more about his religion than a political party.

I was a little off-put by his gay marriage remarks/stance as well, but I decided I could happily enjoy a ..."

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I still really appreciate the thought provoking themes Card brings to us, but I am saddened by the fact that I will no longer support him by actually buying his books.

[Bob]

Tom wrote: "An agenda is not hateful just because it disagrees with your personal beliefs. It's simply a differing viewpoint.

As for Ender's Game, I always thought of it as a story about the power of love an..."

Being against gay marriage, which is basically being against other people's right to love whom they wish, is what I'd call the definition of a hateful agenda. No matter who agrees or disagrees with it.

[Bill]

Michael wrote: "Being against gay marriage, which is basically being against other people's right to love whom they wish"

Stop right there. That's a very disingenuous statement you're making. No one is stopping anyone from loving who they wish.

Realistically, the only people for gay marriage are a.) gay people, b.) people who want to appear "tolerant" to their gay friends, or c.) politicians who are cynically trying to garner votes while making their opponents appear "intolerant."

It's a non-issue that has been overinflated into a wedge issue as a way to divert attention from the weaknesses of a candidate to address a down economy, and their lack of a plan to deal with said down economy.

Most of us don't care who marries who (legalize human-sheep marriages, for all I care).

[Lindsay]

I love this book. It demonstrates a sad reality--it's a story of power, of strategy, of war and destruction. But it's also a story of empathy and love. Reading the book alone without the others in the series leaves me a bit empty because this is what the human race is capable of and in the end, all Ender can do is try to make amends. But if you read the later books, it also shows so much more.

I read this series before I knew about Card's more extreme beliefs, but like so many other authors, I can appreciate the book(s) on one level and the author as a professional, but I strongly disagree with some of his ideas beyond the book.

[Joe]

This is indeed a very cool thread :)

I agree with Amy's comments a few posts back.... 'revenge against bullies' is definitely a minor part. If fact, Ender had to leave battle school for a while BECAUSE he was so upset that his bully solution was violence. Remember, in the end, and later in the series, he spends his time finding new life for the life he took from the hive queen. I don't think that has anything to do with standing up to bullies.

I REALLY don't want to make this thread into a gay marriage thread, but, to me, it's a non issue.

If a particular church wishes to ban gay marriage (or any other type of marriage, for that matter) they can feel free... I'll happily choose to (or not to) belong to it.

the GOVERNMENT needs to serve all it's people, not only people of a particular sexual preference (or race, creed, etc). Denying same sex couples marriage isn't about the principle, it's about denying them sharing their health care, being able to visit their loved one in the hospital when their sick, inheriting what they deserve when they die, etc. If politicians had any sense, they'd make a 'civil union' the only sort of union the government cares about, and leave 'marriage' to the churches.

[Robert]

That doesn't make a bit of sense. A dog is a dog, nothing you could ever do could change that. Marriage is what the law says it is. Marriage has never been unchanging, Marriage used to be one man and one woman of the same race.

[John]

I'm going to rerail the conversation before I get too upset about other topics.

Tony wrote: "I only brought up the Hitler issue above 'cause it seems to have taken root from an article written by Elaine Radford, right after the publication of the original Ender's Game novella, on the subje..."

A much better critique of Ender's Game can be found here: Creating the Innocent Killer

It discusses the morality of Ender's Game and what Card claims that morality is. It also directly addresses Radford's claim of the book being an apologia for Hitler.

It's heavily sourced and a lot of fun to read.