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Drums of Autumn
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Drums of Autumn Group Reread! Topic Question, post 113 page 3
I have been doing the rereads slowly gearing up for the next book. I have enjoyed some of the conversations that we have had on here also. It will probably be a couple of weeks befor I start DOA though.
Thanks! I just want to make sure there there's still enough momentum to warrent me doing questions and stuff.
I will! I admit that I got side-tracked on the Voyager re-read... and it's one of my favs in the series! But ya'll have introduced me to some great books and other series... like BDB (Wendy!).But since Drums is among my least fav of the Outlander series, it would do me good to re-read it and discuss/vent with this great group.
LOL, BDB is an excellent distraction!
I'll be doing the re-read as well. I was a little busy with other things for Voyager, but should be able to contribute with DOA.
Wendy....sorry I've gotten sidetracked reading other books so I'm still only about 1/2 through DIA. If the topic is one I can comment on without reading the book (from memory) I'll add to the discussion.
I am still on board with the re- reading group. I just been waiting for the 1st of July to roll around. I also get to read about one of my favorite characters besides Jamie and Claire, and that is Young Ian. He is so funny, especially when he enter acts with his Uncle Jamie.
I am actually way behind, still rereading DIA, but i'll participate based on what I can remember. I just went through rereading the discussions of the Outlander and DIA rereads, they were so fun to read!!
Eeek I'm the exact opposite...I'm way ahead. I started out with everyone, but then I just got caught up in the stories and couldn't help myself (apparently I have no self-control when it comes to the Outlander series hehe). I have less than 200 pages left in ABOSAA and then on to AEITB, which will be my first time reading!
Ahh how exciting Wendy! Let us know what you think of Echo when you finish it!
I am listening to Drums of Autumn and I have about 4 or 5 chapters to go. Once I start I just can't stop!
Wendy wrote: "Eeek I'm the exact opposite...I'm way ahead. I started out with everyone, but then I just got caught up in the stories and couldn't help myself (apparently I have no self-control when it comes to t..."Wendy...hope you enjoy AEITN as much as I did; think one of the reasons I've been side-tracked reading books other then Outlander is because I know once I get to the end of the books already published it will be more difficult to wait for #8 :D
I forged ahead and re-read DOA back in March. Now I'm stuck on TFC...just can't seem to get into it when I try to pick it up.I found that I enjoyed DOA much more during the second read. For me, the main reason was Roger. I became a big Roger fan over the course of the books. The poor guy suffers so much!
I also wanted to try to be more neutral towards Bree during my re-read. I found that I sympathized more with her the second time (despite some of her bone-headed decisions!).
Loved Lord John's part in this book as well.
I am a big Roger fan also. I think we really start to get to know him here.
DOA was the most difficult book to get through for me. Since this is the beginning of the Frasers living in the colonies, the setting, tone, and pacing changes and is different from what I was used to. I'm sure after the reread I can learn to appreciate this installment more since so many new things happen.
Wendy F wrote: "Hi Guys!Here's the forum for our group read of Drums of Autum.
How many people are still taking part in these rereads?"
I am still rereading with the group. I am on vacation this week so I may not start reading right away but I will definitely comment when I can.
I just started today and I have to say " ah young Ian and Rollo I love them" I absolutely love the part when Ian is trying to convince Jamie that Rollo catches his own fish to eat and he opens Rollo's mouth and tells Jamie to smell Rollo's breath. ;-)
I'm still participating but haven't started my reread of DOA yet. Have to finish a couple books that I'm in the middle of first. This will be my second read of DOA and looking forward to it :)
I'm still hanging in there following along. I haven't had much time to participate, but I enjoy checking in when I can and reading some of the discussions. I've fallen a little behind.... only 53% thru Voyager, but I plan to continue and will start DOA as soon as I'm finished with Voyager.
I'm still here. Started DOA yesterday
I am half way through DOA for the second time. I am in!!!!
I have yet to crack it, actually... but I'll get started in the next few days. Can't wait for the discussion!
It seems like we've still got a few people taking part, great!In the first three books there was a lot of adventure, not a lot of settling down. I always felt there was a story divide from the first three books to the next 3. Did you guys feel like we entered a new phase with this story, and how?
I agree, in DOA there is not a lot of adventure. It is Jamie and Claire finally settling down and where Jamie is not always running from someone. The best part of Jamie and Claire coming to America is that Jamie finally does what he was meant for, he becomes "Laird" of Fraser Ridge. That is what he was born to do and he is doing it.
I do like the storyline of Brianna and Roger as well.
Although DOA does get a little slow at times it is well worth the read.
There is a lot of action in DOA, even though our main characters are settling down. The journey to establish Fraser's Ridge, being attacked by raiders on the river, fighting with a bear, Bree and Roger's journey back in time,Roger toiling on Bonnet's ship and meeting his ancestors, Bree's unfortunate encounter with Stephen Bonnet, Roger getting the crap kicked out of him by his in-laws and taken to be a servant in the Indian camps...This became my second favorite in the series after the re-read! (After ABOSAA)
There's definitely action, but it's just different. It's not the constantly on the run, looking over our shoulder for redcoats, or this, or that. It had a different type of flow to it. It's more like the action you might see on a Homestead and less the action of a wanted man.
Oh but I still want that man. Jamie will always be a very wanted man ;-)
Diane, I love it! :-)
Hahahaha, wanted for LOOOOOVE!
Yes, I did notice a distinct change from the first three books. There is a more "settled" feeling from Jamie and Claire, and that's nice... they never got to settle for very long at Lallybroch, and Fraser's Ridge (once they get there and start the settling process) seems to become, slowly, what I'd hoped they be able to find at Lallybroch - HOME. A place to begin and end; a place of belonging - a community, eventually. (view spoiler)It's also the beginning of a new era... and a new war. DG said that the 1st three books are about Scotland and her bid for independence under Prince Charlie. These books are about America's bid for independence from Britain - same enemy, but different people and different factions. Jamie is, after all, a warrior - a chieftan - a laird; no matter what else he might be (printer, smuggler, farmer, etc.), Jamie is a warrior. So it follows that, especially in this time period, we're going to see Jamie get involved in the Revolutionary War. And once again, it breaks my heart. They might have a bit more info on the war, but not a lot about North Carolina and it's participation in the events leading up to the Revolutionary War. And, of course, we're going to get a lot of that starting in DOA.
So much I learned that I didn't know about that time period! Don't know about ya'll, but I never learned about the "Committees of Safety" and the like. I'd never heard about all this unrest in the back woods. I knew that many things were blamed on the Native Americans that were really settler-related, but I'd no idea the extent and the build up of all of this.
I just got a free Kindle book "Angry Mobs and Founding Fathers: The Fight for Control of the American Revolution" yesterday that I'm excited to read. It's supposed to talk about the two "sides" bidding for independence, and how the Founding Fathers were NOT in agreement with the chaos and lawlessness and power-hungry grabs that these mobs were into - mobs like the Brown brothers. DG introduced me to all of this and whet my appetite to know and learn more.
Then... there's the whole Bree/Roger thing. I honestly didn't expect them to do what they did. Dunno why, but it never occurred to me. And they certainly bring a "fresh" perspective on life in the Colonies in the 1760s-1770s. While we see America/the Colonies through Jamie's eyes (how cool was his reaction to the mountain and the strawberries?), we see the *time* through Bree's and Roger's eyes.
Hafta admit, this is *not* my favorite book in this series. There's a lot of brutality in this book, and it seems, in the books that follow. It's easy to have a rose-colored glasses picture of the time and the land - thinking that because they're in the back woods, what could possibly happen to spoil the idealic homestead/pastoral vibes? Huh! We start off with a hanging, for goodness sakes! And then Stephen Bonnet... The slavery issue is front and center. The chaos & mobs become front and center, along with the burgeoning bubbling of the revolutionary cauldron - the Loyalists versus the... what are they called in this book?
I've wondered if I'd have known half the stuff that Claire, Bree, and Roger seem to know and remember about America's early history? I don't think so - I'd know general things and the "big events", but that's about it.
And, as I've likely said before, there are aspects of Jamie's behavior in this book that I don't like. And probably that's why I don't care for this book; I feel as though he behaves out of character towards Roger, because of how he acted out of character towards Stephen Bonnet - almost as if he takes it out on Roger. And, in part, I think this happens, because Jamie *wants* to be safe - to not have to look over his shoulder every minute in this new land. But that illusion is crushed quickly for Jamie, and I think that he wants to try to preserve it for Claire, so he decides to try to "protect" her from seeing and knowing things that might threaten that feeling of safety for her. And then Bree, of course. But all of it backfires in a horrendous, tragic, and life-changing way. And I don't like that Roger becomes the unwitting victim - partly because, in comparison to Jamie, Roger is a beta-male, and I think he gets the "blame" for what happens (almost as if he deserved it), because he's not the alpha-male like Jamie. And that's just not the case. You can clearly see and know that Roger fought tooth-and-nail, but against Jamie and Young Ian?
Then there's Claire. She comes into her own as a doctor, starting in this book. Her life changes with her association with the Native American healers and shaman. It's like, in this book, Claire integrates all the "weird" and supernatural that she's experienced and stops fighting it - almost welcomes some aspects of it and uses it in her own healing methods. Claire seems to be more at home in her own skin. Is it because she's with Jamie? Or because she's actually a doctor and a surgeon and no longer concerned with "just being a nurse"? I think the age/maturity has something to do with it.
Lots of "new" beginnings in this book...
I dont think Jamie is acting "out of character" I think his character has changed from the first two books. There is a lot of things that has happened to him in the last 20 years and he definately is a different person now. We see some of this change in Voyager (with how he reacted to the whole Laoghaire thing and such) but the intensity was to get young Ian back and that was the main drive of the story. In this one I think we get to see more of what and who Jamie(and Claire) has become over the years. He has a more experienced outlook on his life now and I believe that is part of the setteled feeling. As most people get older they get a more settled contentment to their life. There is still a lot of action in DOA so I never before felt that it was a more settelet story than the others.
I never saw Jamie's actions as out of character either. I thought that it sucked for Roger, and the way things played out, but I thought Jamie's protectiveness was very like him. He has always had his own sense of justice, and he's a much harder man than he was in the first two books. He felt terrible for what he did, he bore the brunt of it even though he only reacted that way because he didn't have all the facts. It was hard for me to read, because I felt terrible for Roger, but it was all just a big misunderstanding all the way around.
The part that seems out of character for me is that once the misunderstanding was realized, Jamie still has hostility towards Roger. He feels he has lost Ian because of Roger. But really #1 one Roger was with the Indians because of Jamie and Ian's actions and #2 I don't doubt that Ian maybe would have ended up with the Indians anyway... he spent a lot of time hunting and what not with the Indians who's to say he wouldn't have run into the Mohawk and Works with hands anyway? If Jamie stops and thinks about that, perhaps he would give Roger half a chance and see what he has sacrificed out of love for Jamie's daughter. Jamie knows deep love with Claire and I kind of wish he'd recognize it in Roger and be appreciative that a man loves his daughter to the same depths that he loves his wife.
The whole Roger incident I blame on Bree.
I think that loss is irrational. It was wrong to blame Roger, but when you're grieving it's hard to think about what's right or wrong. Ian was gone and Roger was there. He lost his son essentially, and he got this guy he doesn't know at all. It reminds me of the way Jenny (view spoiler). Sometimes emotion is beyond rationalizing.
I guess just about everyone shares some blame for what happened to Roger:1. Roger - because he decided to use his real name (MacKenzie) and not Wakefield.
2. Bree - for not telling the whole story, including how she'd handfasted with Roger.
3. Jamie - for (IMO) being extra-hard on Roger a) because he thinks that Roger abused his daughter (even though he's convinced there's more to the story and he doubts Bree's version), b) because he blames himself for allowing Stephen Bonnet to go free from the hanging (in the beginning); IMO, Jamie doesn't want to let anyone else go without his brand of justice, which only makes the whole Stephen Bonnet thing that much worse when he learns the real/whole story about Bree.
Jamie would have been hard on any man who was planning to be with Bree, but all these circumstances and all that happened to them on the way to Jocasta's and Fraser's Ridge - I just think that Jamie was extra harsh, when previously he'd been merciful and clear headed and fair. I s'pose you could argue that he thought of Roger (at least at the first meet) as a true enemy, possibly along the lines of BJR; if that's the case, then yes - Jamie acted as Protector and Justice. And I agree with Fawn about how Jamie kept a grudge against Roger for things that weren't his fault for quite awhile. IMO, Jamie thought Roger a poor substitute for his almost-son, Young Ian.
But that's what's great about these discussions: we can each give our opinion and discuss/debate!
That is a good point Wendy. We are so use to Jamie being calm in situations when most people couldn't. I think your right emotions can certainly cloud rational thought. Lori, I agree with you on the discussions. Not only have I learned a great deal from Diana Gabaldon (more by the way then I ever did in History class) but I have learned a great deal from these dicussions as well. Also, I don't always agree with everyone, still it is still pretty great to see things from different perspectives.
I don't think Bree wanted Claire and Jamie not to work out. She knows how much her mother loves Jamie and if Claire returned she whould be miserable. Bree loves her mother too much to see her that way. And I think that Bree was adjusting to Jamie slowly but they were doing fine until Jamie had his doubts about the pregancy. Bree and Jamie are the same person, big personalities and tempers. They will argue and fight but still love each other always..just like Jamie and Jenny.
I don't know that I think Bree had to tell Jamie exactly what happened with her and Roger. She told him that Roger Wakefield would come, and it was obvious that she was in love with him. that was good enough. The problem was that Roger was going by 'MacKenzie' (which Bree KNEW, that's what makes me angry with her. it was a stupid mistake) and poor Lizzie thought that 'MacKenzie' had raped her. The thing that sucks is that I really feel like it was all just a big misunderstanding with horrible consequences.On that note, I think Jamie was angry at himself and it was just easier to focus it on Roger. Wrong, certainly, but these little flaws are what makes Jamie feel like such a real person and why it's so easy to fall in real love with him.
Jamie and Claire now have the opportunity to rediscover each other. I mean with all the adventures in Voyager, they hardly had any time. And while Ian is with him ( I really like him!) they finally get the chance.This is a whole new world for all of them.
As for Bree and Roger. Their story just adds another dimension to DOA. Bree is still feeling every bit the 20th century woman (and getting in trouble for it. Jamie is still trying to get used to being her father and making mistakes along the way. I mean what kind of practice has he had with dealing with a stubborn woman? Oh, yea, Claire!
This is one of my favorite books in the series.
Well I think that she didn't purposely hold back the MacKenzie thing. I think she just didn't really think about it much and gave him Roger's real name. And I'm not sure that I think the handfasting would have made much of a difference if he was looking out for someone named MacKenzie. Plus, she didn't really know Jamie. She wouldn't want to talk about something so personal with someone she didn't know, at least that's how I imagine I'd be.
Oh yeah, even if it was so hard to read and I dread it when I reread, it was definitely good for drama.
I'm not there yet, but did Bree know that Roger was going by MacKenzie? I didn't think she did - I thought that was part of the problem, and perhaps his part of the "blame", if there is any. More like a tragedy of errors...
Well Lizzie heard the name "MacKenzie" from someone, I could have swore that Roger said that's what he was going by when they saw each other. Maybe not though, maybe he just said that to Lizzie.
I believe that there is a definite divide between Voyager and DOA. They have decided not to return to Scotland and Ian is stuck (happily) in America for now. They are starting fresh almost at the same place as when they first met. Jamie has assets that he can’t easily change into cash and so is poor as a church mouse. They have no place to call home and they must rely almost solely on Jamie’s wits and the generosity of others.
Good grief, I wasn't getting any new posting notices from GR :( Now I'm behind. I have only just started my reread, or rather listen since I'm going the audiobook version this time round. After just getting to the part where Roger takes Bree to the Gathering in the states, I saw and listened to this DG facebook post - to hear what Roger's bodhran sounds like, this has a wonderful bodhran background. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TkQky...
When Roger came into the Public house (I forget what they call those places) some of the people he worked with on the ship were calling to him by MacKenzie, Roger never acknowledge them he only had eyes for Bree but Lizzie heard them call to him. I don't think Bree realized who they were calling, the only time Bree knew he used the MacKenzie name was when he performed.
I felt like I was jumping into a different world with this book, it became so different than the first three, and I initially didn't like it. As I continued reading and reached the 5th, 6th, and 7th book, I did eventually appreciate the rich details of this book and the way it sets up all the action for the second half of the series.I was never a fan of Brianna, and I became less of a fan after this book. She's always been too impulsive and immature. I did like her more in future books (view spoiler)
Stephen Bonnet is a controversial character. Some of us felt compassion for him, and even at times liked him. Some of us hated him and saw him for the villain he was. What did you think about Stephen Bonnet over the course of this book?
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Here's the forum for our group read of Drums of Autum.
How many people are still taking part in these rereads?