The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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A Study in Scarlet
Arthur Conan Doyle Collection
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A Study in Scarlet 2012 - Part One
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"“During the first week or so we had no callers, and I had begun to think that my compa..."
It also shows us how invisible some people in our lives are. For example, what does your mail person look like? UPS guy? Utility meter reader?
Mail person--slightly balding, glasses, mustache, permanent scowlSubstitute mailman--sends back any mail if he can't find the right apt. within 2 minutes.
Utility reader--enters the boiler room of the building. I never see him/her
UPS guy--leaves pkg with supt., I don't see him/her
In Chapter 4:...What's that little thing of Chopin's she plays so magnificently: Tra-la-la-lira-lira-lay." There have been a number of scholarly suggestions made about the piece that SH refers to here, one being that it is Chopin's Fourth Polonnaise in C Minor, which is a piano piece and was never played by Neruda:-
http://ignisart.com/camdenhouse/midi/...
Here is Rubenstein playing the Fourth polonnaise on the piano where you can hear the repetitive tra-la-la-lira-lira-lay phrase, so William Smith may have been right:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oig43...
He are some further references to the music of Sherlock Holmes:-
http://www.trussel.com/detfic/friedmu...
Lynnm wrote: "One thing that we haven't talked about are the Street Arabs. They play a role in many of the Sherlock tales."“During the first week or so we had no callers, and I had begun to think that my compa..."
The street children are called the Baker Street Irregulars, although that name is never used in A Study in Scarlet. It is a chapter heading in A Sign of Four. In that book Holmes refers to them as "the Baker Street Division of the private police force."
The Baker Street Irregulars is also the name for an organization of Holmes fans. Their two most famous members are Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman.
Here is a link to the Baker Street Journal, a magazine of Holmes scholarship that they publish:
http://www.bakerstreetjournal.com/
MadgeUK wrote: "'Arab' was a common expression for naughty children when I was young. My father often called me a 'little Arab'! It was part of the prejudice against dark skinned people of course, who were always..."How interesting. I live in Ohio, but my older relatives from West Virginia (WWII generation) still use that term for wild and unruly children. They pronounce it exactly as you remember MadgeUK with the emphasis on the first A. Nothing demeaning is intended. It just means a naughty child.
It is interesting how many English folkways still survive in that part of the US.
That is indeed interesting Amanda because there was a famous study by Laura del Col of West Virginia University in 1930 called The Life of the Industrial Worker in 19C England which went into detail about street children. In 1848 Lord Ashley had referred to 'more than 30,000 naked, filthy, roaming lawless and deserted children', in and around London.'Also, I found this article from Virginia University on an American illustrated magazine of the 1890s called The Yellow Kid which apparently satirised the lives of 'street arabs' in its cartoons and that magazine may have inspired CD, who visited America in 1894:-
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA04/wood...
Of course it is possible that the term came about as a result of the SH stories as they were very popular on both sides of the Pond when they were written. (The term 'street arab' is listed in my OED, under 'street', as 'a homeless child'.)
Street Arabs seem to have been much written about in CD's day so the term could either have predated or postdated the SH stories:-
http://bartleby.com/208/17.html
Watson makes mention of Holmes being an 'expert singlestick player, boxer and swordsman' - here is something on Holmes' various 'fighting arts':-http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/the...
http://www.wimsblog.com/2012/05/barti...
Deborah wrote: "If you have heard of John Elder Robson (brother to Augusten Burroughs), he and his son both has Asp. Syndrome. He has written two books about it (and lives 4 houses away from me ;-) ) "Thanks for the recommendation, Deborah! Sounds worth reading.
Madge, thanks for the info ... I'd really like to read more about his involvement in the peace movement and have a closer look at how his anti-German sentiment makes itself felt in the stories. Considering that Doyle was of Irish descent, it would also be interesting to reflect on his depiction of Irishmen - as for example the main character of The Valley of Fear.
Looking forward to discussing this novel, I've finished reading it a few days ago.
But since we're still reading A Study in Scarlet ;) ... Does anyone know how the British felt about the Latter Day Saints, back in the days?
Jo: I am putting some stuff about the UK and Mormons in the Background section so as not to clutter up this book discussion thread.
And we're going to be discussing the Mormon issues in the text in Part II (which is I will putting up in the next hour...)
Amanda wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "'Arab' was a common expression for naughty children when I was young. My father often called me a 'little Arab'! It was part of the prejudice against dark skinned people of course,..."That is really interesting, Amanda. And is surprising how many common terms cross the pond. It is more understandable today because of tv/film, but as Madge said, it may be possible that people in the U.S. use that term because of the Sherlock stories.
And thanks for the information on the Baker Street Irregulars group. And I had noticed that Doyle uses that term in later stories.
I will transfer the Mormon stuff to part II when you put that thread up Lynn.
Jo wrote: "The Valley of Fear.Looking forward to discussing this novel, I've finished reading it a few days ago.
Jo, I'm ahead as well. I finished The Valley of Fear and The Adventure of the Dancing Men.
I was going to begin the Bruce-Partington Plans, but then decided that I didn't want to get that much ahead. Instead, I'm reading some of the short stories that we aren't reading. Right now I'm reading the Red-headed League. Which is good...
(Regarding the term "arab")There is a town in North Alabama called "Arab," with the discussed pronunciation (rhyming with Ahab). I don't know it's history, but I'll see if I can find out.
MadgeUK wrote: "Jo: I am putting some stuff about the UK and Mormons in the Background section so as not to clutter up this book discussion thread."Ok, thanks ... I'll go have a look. Somehow I've totally neglected this other thread.
Lynnm, I've already read a whole bunch of stories, among them also The Bruce-Partington Plans (but that was before you published the reading list). It's one of my favourite SH stories so far.
Jo wrote: "Lynnm, I've already read a whole bunch of stories, among them also The Bruce-Partington Plans (but that was before you published the reading list). It's one of my favourite SH stories so far. "Now I can't wait to get to it.
Just love this Sherlock Holmes character... :-) Can't get enough.
You know, I think the reason I don't like CD's books is that I do not like SH. I much prefer Dr Watson. I see SH as a conceited drug addict, however he is portrayed - sorry! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7dnlP...
MadgeUK wrote: "You know, I think the reason I don't like CD's books is that I do not like SH. I much prefer Dr Watson. I see SH as a conceited drug addict, however he is portrayed - sorry! http://www.youtube.c..."
MadgeUK that is a great description of SH. I have been a Holmes fan since childhood, but I think if I actually met someone like him I would absolutely detest that person.
Madge - no need to apologize. As Amanda said, I think that Sherlock would be extremely annoying if he existed in real life. I think one of the reasons that I like Sherlock is that we so rarely celebrate intelligence.
I like the new cliche that has come out of the BBC Sherlock series: brainy is the new sexy. Trite, but wouldn't it be nice if people did start thinking of being smart as something "cool."
And he is conceited, but I also see a vulnerable side of Sherlock. I wish that Doyle gave us more of a backstory. All I can think of is those smart kids who are picked on all the time in their younger years. When they get older and are finally given their due, they must feel some type of need for a bit of payback, even if it is only to be a bit conceited. ;)
All I can think of is those smart kids who are picked on all the time in their younger years. When they get older and are finally given their due, they must feel some type of need for a bit of payback, even if it is only to be a bit conceited.This applies to my 13 yr old 'gifted and talented' grandson who has to put up with a lot of teasing because he is a 'geek'. I keep telling him that 'brainy is the new sexy':)
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Also tell him plenty of brainy people were/are sexy and they usually leave those who teased in the dust!
MadgeUK wrote: "You know, I think the reason I don't like CD's books is that I do not like SH. I much prefer Dr Watson. I see SH as a conceited drug addict, however he is portrayed - sorry! http://www.youtube.c..."
I don't think it's a mistake that the stories are narrated by (and derived from) Watson's journals. If Holmes were narrating, most readers wouldn't get past the first chapter -- a condescending attitude like Holmes's would make a very unlikable narrator.
I read SH because I like how Doyle presents the story and the character's through Watson's POV, which is much more holistic and reliable... Watson is bemused and alarmed and confused (and also amazed and impressed and humbled) just as I would be in the same circumstances.
Lynnm wrote: "Sherlock: “I consider that a man’s brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skilful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones.”"I remembered something similar in "Little, Big" and The Mentalist, so I went looking. Here's the wikipedia site for the Method of Loci:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_o...
And here is what is had to say about Popular Culture:
---
"In popular culture, the technique is employed by the fictional serial killer Dr. Hannibal Lecter in Hannibal (1999) the third of a series of novels by American author Thomas Harris. In several passages in the book, Dr. Lecter is described as mentally walking through an elaborate memory palace to remember facts.[20]
In the 1981 fantasy classic Little, Big by John Crowley, an advisor-mage Ariel Hawksquill uses the method to link obscure information to aid her clients, and notes that:
"...the greatest practitioners of the old art discovered some odd things about their memory houses the longer they lived in them ... it was discovered, for instance, that the symbolic figures with vivid expressions, once installed in their proper places, are subject to subtle change as they stand waiting to be called forth... also, as the memory house grows, it makes conjunctions and vistas that its builder can't conceive of beforehand..."
The technique was depicted in the BBC series 'Sherlock' in "The Hounds of Baskerville", where Holmes uses his "mind palace" to seek important facts and associations in his memory relevant to the case.[citation needed]
The memory palace concept is also used in several episodes of the TV series The Mentalist by the titular mentalist Patrick Jane to help collegues and witnesses remember things such as playing card locations in a deck or information and names of guests at a party."
I don't think it's a mistake that the stories are narrated by (and derived from) Watson's journals...What interests me in these discussions is how much people's perceptions of SH are coloured by their liking for the actor portraying him, whereas Victorians would have been judging him only by CD's descriptions, which are not very flattering. The books were popular then, yes, but I wonder whether SH would have been as much admired or whether Dr Watson was considered the hero for his steady upright character?? The older films, with Basil Rathbone for instance, do not portray SH in a particularly favourable light either.
Film/TV portrayals of Holmes and Watson portray Watson as a rather blundering, ineffectual partner which is totally in contradiction to the written stories, most of which are narrated by Dr Watson, who is not only a qualified and experienced Doctor but also someone who is erudite and is seen by Holmes as a partner. Thus the TV/film relationship cannot function as it does in the books. Also, in Victorian society SH's eccentricity would have been less acceptable than today, where diversity of behaviour is tolerated, encouraged and even admired in many ways.
I tend to like eccentrics in life and in literature but SH is not one of my faves. I am not sure that CD is glorifying intelligence, oftentimes he seems to be 'sending it up' in looking at SH through Dr Watson's more conventional, pragmatic eyes.
Deborah wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "All I can think of is those smart kids who are picked on all the time in their younger years. When they get older and are finally given their due, they must feel some type of need f..."Precisely, Deborah. The ones picked on during high school are the ones who are the most successful now - and usually the ones with the big bank accounts! :-) "Cool" doesn't mean much when you get older.
And I like that teens think both Sherlock and Ben are cool. Sherlock is smart, and Ben is as well. Teens need a dictionary in hand reading his interviews. And he is socially active. One of the few times I would say an actor is a good role model. Hope it stays that way as he becomes more and more famous.
Jessie wrote: "Lynnm wrote: "Sherlock: “I consider that a man’s brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every s..."Jessie - thanks for the info. And I like Sherlock's Mind Palace as well. In the books, I love when we see how Sherlock makes his deductions and connects everything. In the BBC series, I enjoy how they use the graphics to make his thought process like a computer program.
And I like that teens think both Sherlock and Ben are cool. I am not sure that teens are seeing these positive aspects of SH. They may be admiring him for the negative qualities the Victorians observed.
For me, the heart of the stories is the friendship between Holmes and Watson. They start out as roommates and become close friends.Watson keeps Holmes from being such a cold, conceited show-off and Holmes provides glamour and adventure for Watson, who would otherwise be a kind of dull, respectable Victorian gentleman.
It is what drew me into the stories as a child and still keeps me coming back for more. Doyle attempted to write some stories in the voice of Sherlock or in the third person and they just don't work.
MadgeUK wrote: "I tend to like eccentrics in life and in literature but SH is not one of my faves. I am not sure that CD is glorifying intelligence, oftentimes he seems to be 'sending it up' in looking at SH thr..."
I agree that Sherlock Holmes -- at least the way he is portrayed in A Study in Scarlet -- is a send-up of Doyle's mentor Joseph Bell.
In Chapter 4: "The ring, man, the ring: that was what he came back for. If we have no other way of catching him, we can always bait our line with the ring. I shall have him, Doctor—I'll lay you two to one that I have him. I must thank you for it all. I might not have gone but for you, and so have missed the finest study I ever came across: a study in scarlet, eh? Why shouldn't we use a little art jargon. There's the scarlet thread of murder running through the colourless skein of life, and our duty is to unravel it, and isolate it, and expose every inch of it. And now for lunch, and then for Norman Neruda. Her attack and her bowing are splendid. What's that little thing of Chopin's she plays so magnificently: Tra-la-la-lira-lira-lay."