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The Case for Professional Editing (at least from my perspective)
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Hello Thomas,Thank you for sharing this. I have just started a proofreading and editing course which, hopefully, will lead to a career as freelance professional. It irks me when I see bad spelling;and editing my own writing has become something of an obession too!
I look forward to hearing more advice from you.
Good luck,
Jayne
Thomas wrote: "I'm a rookie - let me just get that out of the way first. I've put out my first novel, was fortunate (lucky?) enough to have my manuscript picked up by a publisher, and it’s now in the editing proc..."Thanks for sharing your journey with us, Thomas. Editing takes many forms (grammar, punctuation, severing of dangling participles, logic of time and space, etc.) Keep us posted!
Jayne wrote: "Hello Thomas,Thank you for sharing this. I have just started a proofreading and editing course which, hopefully, will lead to a career as freelance professional. It irks me when I see bad spell..."
Hi Jayne,
For years I hated editors, having been devastated by the remarks of my first two editors. It was much more than punctuation and spelling. They tore my story to pieces. I saved the hated critique from one editor, thinking what a bitch she was. Now five years and much writing experience later, I pulled out the old critique and read it again. At the same time, I read some of my 'old' writing. Lo and behold, the critique was not so bad after all and I could now see where she had been right. We have to quell our ego to open our minds. (Hope there's no mistakes in this.) June
AMAZON BOOK http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B008BDWE1Q BLOGhttp://memoirofjuniemoon.wordpress.com
June wrote: "Jayne wrote: "Hello Thomas,Thank you for sharing this. I have just started a proofreading and editing course which, hopefully, will lead to a career as freelance professional. It irks me when I..."
PS. Yes! Hope there are no mistakes in this.
I doubt anyone would say professional editing is bad. The problem for the indie writer is that editing services cost a lot, and indie writers don't have guaranteed advances that are subsidized by successful authors in the same publishing house. So this cost comes directly from each books profits, and it can be substantial-$4 a page, for example. Not all indie writers can invest so much into a book up front, especially since multiple editorial passes are better than one.Unfortunately this means indie authors need to BECOME professional editors, or as close to that as possible. It's hard, and it's not just spell-checking for typos, correct grammar, and removing certain words. It means detecting weak writing, tortured sentences, continuity errors, and the bad habits that you never knew you had.
It's tough. I self-published my first book and there are still things I am unhappy about. It taught me about the importance of editing, and how much I had to learn just to make a passable book. If I could afford it, I honestly would get that red pen, because it is invaluable to a writer to get that kind of feedback. Until I can, I have to train myself to see my work as an editor would. As much as possible, at least.
HiFirst time author here who took the Indie route so far. I would love to be able to afford professional timely editing. My second book is with a group of proof readers and is approx 150,000 words. I have had three quotes for professional editing from $1500 to over $3000 depending on the depth of the edit.
Without a guarantee of sales in excess of 20,000 for an ebook there is no way I can break even. Instead as with my first book I'll have to accept the occasional review or criticism of needing a good edit.
I wish it was different but for the time being self-edit is my way into publishing.
Phillip, try Whitesmoke software. It is reasonable and will take you a long way. You can try it out for free, just google it.
Aron wrote: "Phillip, try Whitesmoke software. It is reasonable and will take you a long way. You can try it out for free, just google it."I'll give it a try. I have tried other software with very frustrating results, i.e. two scans produce contradictory results.
Philip wrote: "Aron wrote: "Phillip, try Whitesmoke software. It is reasonable and will take you a long way. You can try it out for free, just google it."I'll give it a try. I have tried other software with ve..."
Frustrated by 5000 character limit. Will see how I get on but frustrating - my new book has over 400 A4 pages, lots of clicking to see if its worth it
I agree, sometimes it simply is not financially possible. I also disagree that a trad pubbed book is sometimes any better. There are a LOT of books which you have to ask how did that get past - there was a book I finished only the other day and there were a few clunky phrases, a repeated paragraph and some typos and that was by a well known author.Having a professional editor is certainly something to consider if it can be afforded but I do not believe it is a necessity if not.
I got into an argument with someone way back who said an author should simply "save up" - well sometimes that isn't possible. The OP in that particular argument was claiming give up your I-phone, give up your Starbucks coffee. Well - I don't have an i-phone, my partner pays for my mobile. I don't often go out, and if I do I rarely buy things. It would take me several years to save up enough, and no I can't ask relatives. I found that argument very patronising. Sometimes it simply is not the case that a writer can afford the editing services.
Each situation is different.
No book is perfect, there will always be something which, in hindsight, could be better and this is true of self pubbed work, self edited work or regular published work.
Nice one for getting the publisher:)
Phillip, I suggested giving it try more as a sample.There is much more to the program, and I wouldn't even attempt processing an entire MS in sample form. The one thing it does do is catch redundancies, overuse of words,line count etc. This is very helpful. If you can get your MS in great shape, you may be able to get a good editor for a lot less than you think. The software can't replace feedback however, and perspective. As writers we become blind to our own work. Releasing a first work without good editing will put a nail in your coffin. I,too,have read major authors with so many errors, it makes you wonder.
I can recommend my editor, www.final-edits.com. Kris is pretty good and has pretty low prices...which means she usually has a 2 month backlog...but if you aren't in a huge hurry, I'd suggest at least getting a sample from her. ;-)Good luck!!!
Aria wrote: "I can recommend my editor, www.final-edits.com. Kris is pretty good and has pretty low prices...which means she usually has a 2 month backlog...but if you aren't in a huge hurry, I'd suggest at lea..."Thank you for the link, the pricing is much more reasonable. I will persevere with Whitesmoke for a little while and see. Wish I could spend more time writing and less editing! Have to work as well.
Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions
Philip wrote: "Aria wrote: "I can recommend my editor, www.final-edits.com. Kris is pretty good and has pretty low prices...which means she usually has a 2 month backlog...but if you aren't in a huge hurry, I'd s..."Whitesmoke is out for me. Integration with Mac version of Word is poor, including no help files. Several issues though
1. The lack of UK English setting.
2. When sending back to apply changes the programme (UK English) changed formatting including adding line and paragraph breaks into the "Normal" style setting.
3. At 5,000 characters per effort it can only handle approx two thirds of a page.
4. Having to be on-line is annoying, and would restrict use to my office desktop rather than a laptop in the garden - if it ever stops raining.
I have one more thing for you to try-Scrivener. I haven't used it, however I intend to check it out. You get a one week free trial and the program is $45.00. I am including a link on a recent article that may help you decide whether or not to give it a go. I copied it from the browser so it's long, sorry. It is a very good post with comments. http://www.indiesunlimited.com/2013/0...
Aron wrote: "I have one more thing for you to try-Scrivener. I haven't used it, however I intend to check it out. You get a one week free trial and the program is $45.00. I am including a link on a recent artic..."Thanks, that is looking more useful. I have tried Writers Cafe as well but Scrivener has a lot of good reviews so I'll give it a try. Just blogging on the whole subject as well
Philip wrote: "Aron wrote: "I have one more thing for you to try-Scrivener. I haven't used it, however I intend to check it out. You get a one week free trial and the program is $45.00. I am including a link on a..."Just published my blog on the subject
http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_...
The 30 days for Scrivener is 30 actual use days not 30 consecutive days - so if you don't use it for a week you don't lose a week. I haven't yet bought it but I did use the trial. I am too lazy and stupid to look into it in depth at the moment but from what I have seen it does look useful, there are notes, name generators etc.
Alexandra wrote: "The 30 days for Scrivener is 30 actual use days not 30 consecutive days - so if you don't use it for a week you don't lose a week. I haven't yet bought it but I did use the trial. I am too lazy a..."
I am trying it now, takes a bit of getting used to I think, but character and place links help
I think I am just too lazy to transfer all my notes over. I sort of know what I am doing with word. Sort of.
Just to update everyone, I have now published my second book having out it through Scrivener which I am really liking. I have added Aeon Timeline which integrates with Scrivener. I still think a professional edit is needed for the non-grammar and typo edits. In particular catching plot holes, or where the plot is unclear. Overuse of particular word is another. I will check out the available editors for my next work which is with a couple of initial proof readers.
For the record I have just finished a trad pubbed book by a well known author and it was FULL of typos, the first few pages have at least one a page and there were a couple at the end Oven for Even, He instead of he, missing commas and full stops. So even professional edits miss things. If that had been my editor and I had paid them I would have been ruddy annoyed. Normally I just ignore them if there are only a couple but in a trad pubbed book when there are lots it throws me out. Indie books get flamed for typos and needing edits but apparently trad pubbed books can get away with that. I would like to add though, it was a first edition of the book, I assume later releases got the errors.
Alexandra wrote: "For the record I have just finished a trad pubbed book by a well known author and it was FULL of typos, the first few pages have at least one a page and there were a couple at the end Oven for Even..."One of the things I have got frustrated by is Amazon's refusal to auto-push out amendments. Under Manage My Kindle users can opt in but this change wasn't notified. I emailed KDP as required to try and get them to send out a notice which they sometimes do, but they didn't for my first book. It's on it's tenth revision but I wonder how many of my nearly 4,000 downloads have the updated version. I have had some private and public reviews which have criticised (rightly) the level of editing, but I know that some of the issues were sorted out as soon as I was made aware of them, so I can only presume that these are older revisions. My paperback and hardback versions were also updated on Lulu. An ongoing issue for any writer.
I'm coming to the end of Last Ape Standing: The Seven-Million-Year Story of How and Why We Survived
and I've seen several mistakes in that book too. I understand using a pro if you are an established writer, but if you are not, I think it's a good education to do it yourself. You will improve your writing skills. I know I have.
Update to allI have persisted with Scrivener and I thoroughly recommend it. I am using it for all my writing and it's ability to output to multiple formats form one MS is fantastic. My new book has had good reviews so far, but that could be because it's a better story!
I would still like to have a professional editor, just like I want a literary agent and a publishing deal, but needs must, unless sales get me a return on my investment.
My third book is at proof reading stage. If that makes me sound prolific some of these books have taken more than ten years to see the light of day I have just had some time in the last 6 months to get them written.
Since commenting on this forum and discussing the whole editing piece I have become far more critical of all books, but especially professionally published ones, by experienced authors. Yes, they are full of mistakes and grammatical errors. I hope my whole reading experience has not been ruined. Still a good plot nearly always overcomes the errors!
Back to writing, now where does the comma in dialogue go....
Hi Phillip, I am the person who suggested Scrivener to you. I am planning on using it for my third wip. How did you find the overall experience with it? Someone suggested there are many tricky areas, and seeing that you persisted makes me wonder the difficulty of that program. Thank you. You are really moving right along.
I have to say I agree about Zon not pushing out the updates. If they are substantial then they sometimes email buyers but "minor" amendments the buyers have to remember to go check. I think they now have auto update but again you have to remember to activate it.
Aron wrote: "Hi Phillip, I am the person who suggested Scrivener to you. I am planning on using it for my third wip. How did you find the overall experience with it? Someone suggested there are many tricky area..."Hi Aron
It is far more complex than I initially realised; however, for just writing and researching it's great. in my other life I have had to prepare very large proposals and bids, I wish I had Scrivener then rather than fighting with Word.
For my first book it took hours in word to prepare the various formats needed for Lulu Hardback and Paperback, Amazon for Kindle and then ePub for iBook and Nook. I also tried Smashworlds and CreateSpace as well all different formats, different rules on tables of contents and different rules on headers and footers. Scrivener pretty much solved all of this in an hour or so and that was with me reading the manual and another ebook on how to do it.
I have also re-editied my first book in the programme picking up several issues straight away that I had missed on countless proof reads. Then I was able to republish the various formats in a couple of hours whereas first time round it was several days.
I am still getting to grips with the character and places meta data functions and some of the other very clever search and filter functions it's the meta data that allows integration with Aeon Timeline.
I have 4 books in writing at the moment and they are all in Scrivener and I can flit amongst them at will going straight to a paragraph scene or chapter, knowing it won't impact any other sections formatting or layout.
At the basic end it's just as good as Word as a processor and much better as an organiser and formatting tool. It is not an editor though in any sense. It doesn't tell me about plot holes, poor characterisation and so on, it does tell me about grammar, punctuation and spelling. No software is perfect (like no writer) but it's good for me as it has a free 30 day trial what's not to try even if you never go beyond the word processor element - it's a lot cheaper than MS Office or just Word on its own.
Thank you for the information. I'll probably get lost, but it does seem to save an immense amount of time. I will give it try. I have three books going at the same time, and the ability to go to paragraphs and scenes makes it a valuable tool. Good luck with all your works.
Aron wrote: "Thank you for the information. I'll probably get lost, but it does seem to save an immense amount of time. I will give it try. I have three books going at the same time, and the ability to go to pa..."You to make sure you post when they are out
Everyone needs a professional editor. If you can't afford one, then perhaps you can find another professional writer (assuming you are a pro) to exchange editing tasks with one another? I've never really tried this because I live with a professional editor. But if all else fails....P.S. I just edited this message after I posted it! Editing is never-ending.
Regardless of how original or fascinating a writer's work may be, a mainline publisher will reject a manuscript that is riddled with misspellings, incorrect punctuation, poor grammar, limited vocabulary, and improper sentence and paragraph structure.A copy editor's job is to spot and correct the occasional mistake ; not salvage a mess submitted by an undisciplined or lazy would-be writer. That is a job for a ghost writer.
If for no other reason, a writer should master proper technical writing skills so as not to insult the intelligence of a potential reader.
No matter how expert we may be in editing/proof reading, we are too close to our own work to do it well. We see what is in our heads, what we want to be there rather than what is. I am lucky to have friends who happily help me in return for my help. I also have a friend who proof reads the local newspaper and is happy to help me in return for a free book.My books might not be totally error free, but I think I am being honest when I say they are ALMOST error free.
I have picked up a few mistakes in Traditionally Published books over the years.
Hey Thomas,I loved reading your post because I could relate. I have one book published by an ebook publisher and I must say my editor was necessary in creating the book that is for sale on the virtual shelves. I have another book which I am looking at self publishing however, there is no way I wouldn't get it edited by a professional. I am using the same editor as she works freelance. I was surprised at how reasonable the cost was. I figure when I self publish the proprtion of the book sales that would have gone to the publisher I now keep so in theory it may work out to be pretty even. I hope! We'll see. :)
The OP wrote this:"In the days and weeks to come, I’m going to relate what she told me, subject by subject. I’ll go over what I did wrong, included the passage in which I did it, and show how she told me it should be corrected. Hopefully, it will prevent some others from making the same mistakes."
I read that and got so excited. That's the kind of thing that I think can provide excellent writing instruction.
Unfortunately, the OP never, as far as I can tell, followed through.
Anyone have links to anyone else that has done something similar?
Note that editing of typos and grammar, etc. isn't particularly helpful. I'm looking for examples that improve writing craft - tension, character, plot.
Thanks.
Brian
My whole start in writing had a bit of a herky-jerky start; I didn't know if my manuscript would get picked up, what if it didn't, should I just go independent, etc, etc. So, I decided to start reading up on what to do, in order to publish my book indie. Anyone interested enough to be reading this up to this point knows most if not all the ingredients to publishing. What I want to comment on is the editing.
Every article, blog, tweet, website and post I read said emphatically “If you do nothing else, have your work edited by a professional.” Period, end of story. One article I read went so far as to say his finished work was almost unrecognizable. Reading that, I wondered, “Well, did the story suck to start off? What’s the big deal? I edited the spelling, typo’s, punctuation, and all. What else could there be?”
All of you see what’s coming. Boy, did I have a lesson to learn.
My publisher put me in touch with the young lady who was to do my editing, and she received my manuscript. I got the first chapter back in about a week. She wanted to pay particular attention to the first one, because that’s the hook, and we want to make sure it’s a close to perfect as we can get.
After I staunched the flow of blood from my many wounds, I sat down to really read her comments. They all made sense, and I would (HAD) never given a thought to any of them. In the days and weeks to come, I’m going to relate what she told me, subject by subject. I’ll go over what I did wrong, included the passage in which I did it, and show how she told me it should be corrected. Hopefully, it will prevent some others from making the same mistakes.
One thing is certainly clear to me, at this junction. Without my friendly neighborhood Red Pen Nazi, my work would not (NOT, do you hear?) be the same book as it’s about to be, and now, I’m even more excited to see how it turns out. I’ll echo the others who have gone before. Professional editor, if nothing else. Period, end of story.
I'm a rookie - let me just get that out of the way first. I've put out my first novel, was fortunate (lucky?) enough to have my manuscript picked up by a publisher, and it’s now in the editing process. And that is exactly where my real education in writing begins.
My whole start in writing had a bit of a herky-jerky start; I didn't know if my manuscript would get picked up, what if it didn't, should I just go independent, etc, etc. So, I decided to start reading up on what to do, in order to publish my book indie. Anyone interested enough to be reading this up to this point knows most if not all the ingredients to publishing. What I want to comment on is the editing.
Every article, blog, tweet, website and post I read said emphatically “If you do nothing else, have your work edited by a professional.” Period, end of story. One article I read went so far as to say his finished work was almost unrecognizable. Reading that, I wondered, “Well, did the story suck to start off? What’s the big deal? I edited the spelling, typo’s, punctuation, and all. What else could there be?”
All of you see what’s coming. Boy, did I have a lesson to learn.
My publisher put me in touch with the young lady who was to do my editing, and she received my manuscript. I got the first chapter back in about a week. She wanted to pay particular attention to the first one, because that’s the hook, and we want to make sure it’s a close to perfect as we can get.
After I staunched the flow of blood from my many wounds, I sat down to really read her comments. They all made sense, and I would (HAD) never given a thought to any of them. In the days and weeks to come, I’m going to relate what she told me, subject by subject. I’ll go over what I did wrong, included the passage in which I did it, and show how she told me it should be corrected. Hopefully, it will prevent some others from making the same mistakes.
One thing is certainly clear to me, at this junction. Without my friendly neighborhood Red Pen Nazi, my work would not (NOT, do you hear?) be the same book as it’s about to be, and now, I’m even more excited to see how it turns out. I’ll echo the others who have gone before. Professional editor, if nothing else. Period, end of story.