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Kushiel's Dart
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my question is " what was the scene you liked the most?'
Which did you prefer - Kushiel's Dart or Daughter of the Blood?I enjoyed Jaenelle's childhood a lot more - I think overall Anne Bishop's books had more humor than Carey's. I liked her books so much I was glued to them - even contemplated reading while showering - which only happens with me for SOME books.
edit to add: I should say that I didn't just read Daughter of the Blood - my copy was an omnibus of the complete trilogy so my comment on humor encompasses all 3 books.
The tone used in Kushiel's Dart was - how should I put it - because it was a first person narrative of what happened, the highs and lows were somehow suppressed in the way they were told. In Daughter of the Blood, the reader was carried down to horror and then up to tearful laughing - I think that's why it hooked me more than the other book did.
it's not a question for the hangout but it involves the timing of it. Do you know you're giving me mental first-aid against the wave of exams i'll be facing this week?
my question is: Aren't there any GOOD books to read? I really disliked Kushiel's Dart, it was way worse (more creepy) than 'Iron Duke' or 'Gabriel's Ghost'. I am beginning to think that a lot of women writers hate women. But I know there are good books in the world... is it only the sex fantasy books that stink?
*sigh*
Maribeth wrote: "my question is: Aren't there any GOOD books to read? I really disliked Kushiel's Dart, it was way worse (more creepy) than 'Iron Duke' or 'Gabriel's Ghost'. I am beginning to think that a lot o..."I believe you just didn't find the right books, and those selected till now didn't work for you
Two discussion suggestions:I found the world created in Kushiel's Dart fascinating, although it took me a bit to adjust to the verbose writing.
What was your favorite aspect of the KD world, the religions, the exploration of sexuality (often paired with religion for Terre D'Ange), or the political web? why?
What do you think is the drive behind Phedre's obsession/weakness (for lack of better words at the moment) with Melisande?
I know it is not something that Phedre really understands herself (at least as of the end of KD). Personally, I think it has to do with the whole Kushiel relation - Phedre being Kushiel's chosen and Melisande being Kushiel's scion.
One content(ish) question:
I gathered that technically all D'Angeline are descendant from the gods, but I didn't really understand what made scions different.
What is special about a scion of one of the D'Angeline deities?
did anyone else have issues at the start of the book with children being so sexually aware/sexualised at such an early age?I had issues to start with, possibly because I work with children, the more I read and the more I got into the world as the story progressed the easier I became with it all.
did anyone have trouble getting into the world at the start of the story ?
I did I found the world so strange and alien at first but now I'm really getting to grips with it and it has me intrigued and hooked!! (still reading cos im so slow!)
oh and If we are going to have anymore 912 page books can we please have 2 months to read them in ?!!!!
How might it change the book if Phedre was associated with another house/angel? For example, Eisheth and eglantine house.
What portion of the story in Kushiel's Dart stood out for you?
Rachel wrote: "How might it change the book if Phedre was associated with another house/angel? For example, Eisheth and eglantine house."I like this one. A thought provoker!
Justine in the DotB discussion mentioned that sex was used solely as a weapon in the book. In KD, sex was often also a weapon, though much subtler/without all the forcedness, usually to gain knowledge or as a bargaining method.Can you discuss how both books of the month utilize the idea that Sex = Power as a main theme for their worlds?
I was wondering about the way in which sex and faith are linked in Kushiel's Dart, and how this plays out differently for different characters (in particular, for Phedre and Joscelin, but you could also extend this to Alcuin if you take the view that his faith is in his devotion to Anafiel).
Rachel wrote: "How might it change the book if Phedre was associated with another house/angel? For example, Eisheth and eglantine house."Jacqueline Carey explores this a little bit in the third trilogy. Moirin doesn't belong to any house of the night court but she is touched by Naamah. She is still very sexual but in a very different way than Phedre.
Did you find it interesting the world of warcraft connections in this book? The two main examples I remember is Elua the God of Terre d'Ange and the nightelf God in WOW Elua. Also the skaldia is very simlar to the Skadi's in Northend. So is Elua a common name for fantasy God's, and is skaldia another form for viking?
which house do you think you would have belonged to ? (I can see felicia blushing already!)I know there is a seperate thread on this but this is specifically for the ladies on the hangout tonight!
Jane wrote: "which house do you think you would have belonged to ? (I can see felicia blushing already!)
I know there is a seperate thread on this but this is specifically for the ladies on the hangout tonight!"
That's a good one!
I know there is a seperate thread on this but this is specifically for the ladies on the hangout tonight!"
That's a good one!
In the Black Jewels Trilogy: Did anyone of you got the feeling that the men were more like 'women with penises'? I sometimes found their reactions and thinking very female. Then again, maybe there is no male/female behavior when you change the social structures in such drastic ways.
Do you view Phèdre as a weaker character who put up with the life she was given, who was a Servant of Naamah and acted as a spy only for having no other choice and feeling forced, or do you view her as a stronger character who chose to act in these capacities of her own will? Personal thoughts of how the text came across to you as you were reading would be excellent, as I see how it easily could have been read in either way depending on where the reader is in the story (and have noticed in the threads that people have read Phèdre's character in both manners).
If You had been Phedre, was there anything you would have done differently? Also I like the fact that she maintains her friendship with the prince of travlers and although they are from almost different worlds it doesn't change who they are to one another. However I sometimes wonder if Carey should have made the prince's mother more of a mother figure to Phedre, does anyone else feel that way?Also on a side note, what jewel would you wear in the Black Jewels setting?
One thing I've been wondering is why there are so many people that are of Kushiel's line (aka want to be the dom) but there's only one anguisette. Any ideas as to why there's such a skew in the Terre D'Ange world?
Gotobedmouse wrote: "So is Elua a common name for fantasy God's, and is skaldia another form for viking? "Short answer yes, longer answer is that almost all the nationalities etc. are almost pseudonyms. Will try to post something up seperately since it's not a question for the hangout... :)
Done: Geography
The cave of Elua. I love this sense and its when the two love interest come to gather but.this sense reminds me a lot of the sense there were many complaints about in iron duck. Joscelin says no and Phedra pushes and he is drunk, exhausted and delires form blood loss(witch form experiences is much words then drunk.) See used no little amount of her skill to get what she wanted and not necessary what he wanted. He was defiantly upset about it for a long time afterwords. what does the panale think.
Do you think grooming children for sex work is inherently wrong, or is it just weird for us because sex is still looked at as forbidden and sinful in our culture? I saw someone expressing distaste at this in another thread, and thought "well, if the sex trade was a legitimate work choice, would we still feel that way? I don't think most people get squeamish about children being groomed to rule (William and Harry) or act (lots of child actors out there), or even go into the family business".
If you read the books before, did you reread them this month? If so, has your opinion changed of the books? Please complete this sentence
"I think Daughter of the Blood is a good book because ...." (not the series, this book as a standalone book)
Looking forward to tonight!
I've had Kushiel's Dart on my bookshelf for awhile, and was so glad to have and excuse to read it! One question I haven't been able to get past is regarding prostitution. I don't know whether I found the profession to be empowering or demeaning.
On one hand, Phedre chose her patrons and willingly slept with them for a living. From a feminist perspective I'd say every woman has a right to do whatever she chooses with her body, and if Elua said to "Love as thou wilt" she was honoring him in the best way she knew how.
On the other hand, Phedre was an indentured servant to Anafiel Delaunay until her marque was completed, and was raised to believe that this was the only path in life she was suited for. I don't suppose an anguissette trained only by Cereus House would be qualified for any other purpose in life.
Do you find Phedre's profession to be the result of an open willingness to praise Elua, or is it the result of a cult-ish religion that brainwashes its followers into believing they must sell themselves to be worthy of praising their god?
What do you think about the "signale" and the various attitudes toward it? It seems a little different than a traditional safeword. Phedre counts among her most scintillating clients those who *want* her to use her signale. She feels that uttering the signale is giving in, and claims a lot of power from not using it, even though it means going beyond what she really wants to endure. This seems different from a safeword, the whole point of which is to be the one thing free of power play (or so I thought? Am I totally misunderstanding?)
I found it interesting that her choice to enter a contract was very important to her, and viewed as positive. Yet, she never seemed to view the institution of signale as particularly positive. When enslaved by the Skaldi, it was her inability to not engage in the first place - not her inability to negotiate once engaged - that struck her so deeply. Understandably! But isn't not respecting a safeword also pretty rapey? Is this just part of the characterization, and what makes her relationships with, for example, Melisande, unhealthy and terrifying?
Question for Veronica (also convenient excuse to plug S&L and G&S!):Writing Style of Kushiel's Dart: would you put it into the same general category as Tigana and Hyperion?
(I ask because I've really enjoyed Carey's style, and I'd be more inclined to pick up books by Simmons or Kay if their deliveries were in the same vein.)
Related General Question:
Writing style: How do you like your sexytimes presented? Does stylistic, poetic or "flowery" language tend to draw you deeper into the scene or is it a distraction?
Question Best Answered Post-Cocktail:
If you had been the founder of one of the houses of the Night Court, what would your house's canon and motto be?
Megan wrote: "I adored this book and have started reading the rest of the series. My only qualm is that this book club is going to drive me into poverty :DI was wondering, as this is the start of the Kushiel's..."
I think the books get even better after Kushiel's Dart. There is a lot of info dumping and world building in the first one before you get to the action. The later books maintain the action and intrigue but without the huge amount of world building.
Sarah wrote: "One thing I've been wondering is why there are so many people that are of Kushiel's line (aka want to be the dom) but there's only one anguisette. Any ideas as to why there's such a skew in the Ter..."Kushiel's line is a real blood line. They are descended from the angel Kushiel. Anguisettes are not descended from Kushiel they are chosen by Kushiel for a specific purpose. In this case Phedre was chosen to balance Melisande.
@Gotobedmouse:Carey's Elua was no doubt inspired by the poem about Éloa, an angel who fell in love with a mortal girl.
Most (all?) of the Companions are lifted from angelic lore. Kushiel, for example, is indeed one of the Malake Habbalah, the Seven Angels of Punishment (along with Lahatiel, Shoftiel, Makatiel, Hutriel, Pusiel and Rogziel). "Kushiel" means "rigid one of God".
Erica wrote: "What do you think about the "signale" and the various attitudes toward it? It seems a little different than a traditional safeword. Phedre counts among her most scintillating clients those who *w..."
I din't get the sense at all that Phedre was going beyond what she really wanted out of some power play over her signal. I think a lot of her patrons made it into a game because it was so rare for her to give it and it was probably a much more common thing among say the adepts of Valerian House that they were used to. The only time Phedre said that she went beyond what she wanted was when d'Essoms used the hot poker on her. She did not give her signal then because she did not believe that he would do it. If anyone had ignored her signal if she gave it it would have been considered not only rape but heresy and would have been punishable under the laws of Terre D'Ange.
1. Most criticisms of this book, whether it be of the style or pace or plot, are met with a chorus of "oh, that's sorted out in the 3rd book/the next series" etc etc. While I can appreciate the use of a cliff-hanger ending or that book 3 in a series relies on its forerunners for the world building, I feel a first book should pretty much stand on its own. To what extent then do you think the first book of a series should be a standalone and not reliant on sequels to lift your opinion of it? 2. I’m new to the concept of not finishing a book (or a series) and I am enjoying my reading experiences all the more for it this past year. I know someone who says that you should subtract your age from 100 and the number you’re left with is the number of pages you have to read before giving up on a book. The older you get the smaller the number, since you’d have other demands on your time and patience. I’d like to know if any of the ladies have a definite ceiling beyond which a book just isn't worth the effort, regardless of popular opinion or making a commitment to read it. (Your lemming limit, so to speak?)
This is the first time I read or even heard of Kushiel's Dart. I feel I need to read it again to catch everything. I liked it very much but I didn't find it romantic or titillating. I don't have any thought provoking questions but a couple of simple ones for us simple minded:1. Did Phedre’s constant (not subtle) hints in her narration about the coming demise of Alcuin and Anafiel lessen the emotional impact of the scene or were you thankful for the heads up as I was? Did anyone really NOT see that coming? Thanks to being GRRM’d I personally spent more time biting my nails in worry of my favorite character (Joscelin this book) meeting his untimely end than paying attention to any other aspect of the book.
2. Where the heck was Childric d'Essoms during the evasion…where did I lose him with the barrage of characters coming and going?
3. How do you feel about the ‘Master of the Straits’ element? This book didn’t seem to have much magic other than Hyacinthe’s Trelawney-esque dramonde- then all of a sudden Terre d’Ange sprouts a mini Poseidon…Neptune…Aquaman…Am I the only one to find this part hokey?
4. How do you feel about Phedre having sex with Hyacinthe after everything she went through with Joscelin? This ruined the ‘romance’ of the book for me. I stopped liking Phedre at this part. I’ve had to say goodbye to close male friends and had male friends grieve yet NAILING them for comfort never crossed my mind. >=[
I had the dumb idea to try to read VFs Kushiel’s Dart at night and listen to SLs Tigana during the day. If Kushiel’s cast of characters was confusing alone I suggest you don’t try this. I spent a lot of time just regrouping between books. ‘So, Phedre is trapped with a musician in Ironforge desperately trying to remember their names?’
dont know if others asked but i have 2 questions.1. did any of you groan at the page 510 scene of joscelin after serious arse kicking wincing at phedre tending his wounds? it's such an over done thing that everytime i see it now i think of the community first paintball ep when britta tends to jeff's wounds.
2. Of the main 4 people that phedre seemed to love, whom would you pick as your lover? Melisande, joscelin, hyacinthe or anafiel ?
(if it wasn't for the whole me being gay factor, i'd totally pick melisande..gotta love a smart lady who knows what she wants)
thought of another 21. Did you feel particularly bad for joscelin since phedre basically made a waste of the rules he'd been living by for over half his life..yeah it was for survival mostly but i still couldn't help but feel bad for him.
2. Did you feel there were characters you expected to return that didn't (made another thread about this as well) ones like the other children at cereus house at the beginning were described pretty detailed and i totally expected them to at least show up in a cameo later but they never did.
bonus question!!!!
3. Are any of you going to start saying "elua's balls" in public when you're rather surprised by something?
I did once yesterday at the grocery store (They had fresh strawberries for a buck a pound..it was warranted) and i got like 5 strange looks from people around me.
DJ Enigma said: If you had been the founder of one of the houses of the Night Court, what would your house's canon and motto be?Love this! Also, which House would you most like to visit as a patron?
For those of you who haven't already, will you be finishing the trilogy? Once I finished Kushiel's Dart, I couldn't wait to read the rest! Definitely one of my favorite VF series.
I adore this series so much and just re-read KD for like, the kabillionth time!! Have any of you picked up the anthology "Songs of Love and Death," which contains Anafiel and Rolande's story and, if so, what did you think of it?
Charlotte wrote: "...How do you feel about Phedre having sex with Hyacinthe after everything she went through with Joscelin? This ruined the ‘romance’ of the book for me. I stopped liking Phedre at this part. I’ve had to say goodbye to close male friends and had male friends grieve yet NAILING them for comfort never crossed my mind. >=[."Ok, I have to admit the same thing happened for me. I understand that sex for her (them?) is spiritual and healing etc., but it did seem REALLY out of place. It actually felt like Phedre sort of forgot about Joscelin while they were traveling with Hyacinthe, and then all of a sudden once he was out of the picture again, she tells Joscelin she loves him. Hyacinthe seemed to be a better fit as main love interest, even if Joscelin and Phedre did go through a lot together.
It was just sort of a weird dynamic overall. Was that on purpose? I don't even know.
Also, if people here start doing the "Team Hyacinthe" and "Team Joscelin" thing, I will be very disappointed. I just wanted to put that out there.
Sex or violence on there own is usually expected in this genre, but it makes most people extremely uncomfortable when they're mix together.Can you talk a little bit about the way the 2 books handled rape. Do you feel it added to the story, giving it a richness. Or did it distract from the main story (probably not as applicable for DotB).
Sarah wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "...How do you feel about Phedre having sex with Hyacinthe after everything she went through with Joscelin? This ruined the ‘romance’ of the book for me. I stopped liking Phedre at..."Jocelin or Hyacinthe? Please! It's Team Melisande! :P
I think Phedre was actually more in love with Melisande than any of the others. She shuddered with pleasure when she thought of her, heard her voice, etc and always wore her diamond around the neck... She was positively IN LOVE WITH MELISANDE!
Do the ladies think that Melisande was just a masochistic infatuation for Phedre, because she likes the pain (physically and mentally?) or that she really fell in love with this scheming b*@#$...?
Is She IN LOVE WITH MELISANDE!is a them touched on deeply in book2
Robert wrote: "Is She IN LOVE WITH MELISANDE!is a them touched on deeply in book2"
As much as I would like to find out, I didn't enjoy the book that much to venture into the second one. But thank you, Robert :)
Mod
is a them touched on deeply in book2"
As much as I would like to find out, I didn't enjoy the book that much to venture into the second one. But thank..."
Oooh the second one is the best :D Pick it up later!
Felicia wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "Robert wrote: "Is She IN LOVE WITH MELISANDE!is a them touched on deeply in book2"
As much as I would like to find out, I didn't enjoy the book that much to venture into the second..."
Oh, goddamn, Felicia!!! Why did you have to tell me that?... Now I gotta read it! LOL
Ok, ok. But Hyacinthe, as the new Master of the Straights better show his watery face in there! =D
Did anyone else find themselves thinking about J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Silmarillion," while they were reading this book?!
But Hyacinthe, as the new Master of the Straights better show his watery faceUM that's book 3 ;)
(view spoiler)
Robert wrote: " But Hyacinthe, as the new Master of the Straights better show his watery faceUM that's book 3 ;)
they resolve the Melisande louse end in book2 and the Hyacinthe one in book 3 but the star of tha..."
AAAAARRGHHGHH! *@#$%!!!
=D
Sorry just didn't want you to be disappointed when you read book2.I do agree that is the best of the 3 but i love all 3
What is your favourite romance from the story?There are a number that vary in writing and feelings - some happen before the story starts (Roland/Delauny) and some controversial (Phédre/Melisande).
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Vaginal Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Tigana (other topics)Hyperion (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Dan Simmons (other topics)Guy Gavriel Kay (other topics)
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