'Black Knight' UFO in orbit during the 1950's ???

[Anna]

Hi Space Opera Fans!

A friend of mine forwarded me this article and asked if I've ever heard anything about the 10-ton 'Black Knight' UFO which NASA found already orbiting the earth during the earliest days of the Space Race, before we had the capability to launch something that big in orbit.

http://www.viralnova.com/black-knight...



Now I know these stories usually turn out to need a tinfoil hat, but does anybody know about it? And what's the story behind the conspiracy theory?

Inquiring minds want to know... :-)

Be epic!

Anna Erishkigal

[Steph]

I'd never heard this story before, but of course the mighty interweb awaits with a thousand and one answers. The article at the link below is by far the most sensible one I found.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4365

[Brendan]

Interesting you mentioned tinfoil, since that is probably what is in that photograph. More specifically, a big piece of aluminium foil known as a thermal radiation blanket that came off of a satellite.

[Anna]

That's a fascinating story, Steph! And more along the lines of what I suspect it to be (space junk).

And they say it's half of a casing from an unmanned satellite they launched prior to actually launching a man. Again, much more logical than a 13,000 year old beacon from Bootes! :-)

[Jonathan]

That's really interesting. Why does it have to be ten tons though? Are they adding lead to the thing for some reason and then doing their calculations?

[[deleted user]]

Difficult to weigh something or calculate mass of an object such as this I'm sure. In fact I'm wondering just how poor our tech really is at intercepting such an object in the stratosphere. I saw this on youtube a while back and wondered if at all it is just a bit of rubbish, how it maintains its orbit without any form of power or self adjustment? Weird in that you just can't tell anything from the picture and it must be all conjecture. Anyone seen the Jim Marrs Docs on Youtube? Ancient cults and aliens. I was entertained and hoping he was talking madness.

[Steph]

I must admit alarm bells began to ring for me when I saw Major Donald Kehoe's name mentioned in the press cuttings. I read Kehoe's book many years ago and it's the stuff of conspiracy theories. Quite entertaining though.

[Anna]

I have a small, avid following of Annunaki conspiracists amongst my readership (Chariots of the Gods and Zecharia Sitchin fans). They have some entertaining hypothesis. Far-fetched, but there are also some kernels of truth amongst the conspiracies.

[Brendan]

What is the Annunaki conspiracy? Wikipedia was not helpful.

[Anna]

Did you see Jupiter Ascending? The movie was loosely based on Annunaki mythology dating back to ancient Sumeria. Some people believe the Sumerian gods Enki, Enlil and Ea were really alien creatures who seeded life here on Earth ... literally ... as a slave labor force. They believe there is an additional planet called Nibiru in elliptical orbit which only comes close to earth every 10,000 years or so. It's an interesting theory. There -are- some really odd Sumerian bas-relief sculptures and recorded myths which could be interpreted as man's encounter with extraterrestrial overlords, especially their depictions of 10 planets in the solar system (doubtful ... but it's fun to speculate). This is the same pre-history which spawned the myth of 'fallen' angels which I use in my epic fantasy series, so I'm fairly fluent in it.

[Steph]

I discovered Erich von Daniken's books in my teens and for a while was totally hooked. Over the years I've become a lot more cynical(!), then when I got to study archaeology properly saw how selective 'ancient aliens' advocates are with the evidence. I also think it does our ancestors a great disservice to assume they weren't capable of invention. (My second novel Paw-Prints Of The Gods takes a playful swipe at it all; there's a quote from Chariots of the Gods in the paperback.)

Having said all that, Carl Sagan suggested that looking at ancient myths and legends could be a good way of finding evidence of past alien visitations. I believe the Annunaki myths Anna cites were thought to be a good candidate for further investigation.

[Brendan]

Ancient alien conspiracies do seem very disrespectful to ancient cultures. I worry that some of these conspiracies are used to justify people's already existing ugly prejudices.

[Jonathan]

I think most alien conspiracies come about because people really have no idea how life functioned before the internet as we know it today and the proliferation of PCs. To a lot of people imagining life without computers doing to the number crunching and CAD software, and the internet to research anything, and heavy machinery to build with is so alien it couldn't have happened, so they create ideas for how people made aqueducts and roads and pyramids with no computers to help.

[[deleted user]]

Jonathan wrote: "I think most alien conspiracies come about because people really have no idea how life functioned before the internet as we know it today and the proliferation of PCs. To a lot of people imagining ..."
Are we talking about ancient civilizations ability to work stuff out without technology? What ever the answer to the impressive construction of moving stones that weigh over a hundred tons without machinery etc, (and I'm not going down the ancient alien route)It is interesting how time and decay removes so many answers and leaves modern day experts having to consider while being perplexed if not totally impressed with our ancestors. I think recently it was only discovered how the Romans made such tough concrete to build all the wonders that have outlasted anything we would build now. Seems that we were always smart, and yet still, every dog has its day taking with them some impressive knowledge that leads to speculation only by assuming that we today should some how be smarter simply because we are what exactly?...

[[deleted user]]

Anna wrote: "Did you see Jupiter Ascending? The movie was loosely based on Annunaki mythology dating back to ancient Sumeria. Some people believe the Sumerian gods Enki, Enlil and Ea were really alien creatur..."

Ah the Wachowski Brothers, or is that brother and sister now? They have a tendency to hijack the likes of philip K dick Holographic Matrix universe and ancient alien myth in order to peddle anti hyper capitalist corporate ideology (which a lot of science fiction in movies do) any way, the whole idea going around was that horned aliens digging for gold in what is now Iraq about 5-6000 years ago and then genetically modifying hominids living in South Africa around the same time to make us bright folks in order to dig for gold as slaves. This stuff spirals off into all sorts of areas and conspiracies that are then some how shoe horned into angels and demons and nephilim as another avenue. Whatever is going on, it appears that plenty of people are not happy with humans being smart from the natural cause of evolution. As you say though, food for thought in fiction and I for one hope no one returns to make me dig for gold!

[Anna]

I study ancient myths about angels and possible alien / godly visitations as a hobby and then use it like quilt-patches in my book series. We -do- have some strange leaps in technology around that time, but the most likely explanation is there was another civilization we traded with (terrestrial!!!) which has been lost in time, but traded that knowledge so to us, it seems sudden. There's some speculation this city might have been in southern Iran.

I write about angels as space-faring aliens, but in real life, I'm fairly certain the so-called 'fallen' angels was a group of elite soldiers who were sent to occupy a competing city-state, and then, after a while, when the king told them to sack the city, they said 'nope ... we're all settled down now.' No godlike creatures involved ... these were MEN. If you read the Epic of Gilgamesh and compare it to Enoch's Book of the Giants, it clearly states that Gilgamesh was one of the 'fallen' generals grandchildren. And we now know from ancient clay tax records that Gilgamesh was a real king. So ... no Annunaki :-) But it sure makes great cannon-fodder for a book!

[Jonathan]

Anna wrote: "I study ancient myths about angels and possible alien / godly visitations as a hobby and then use it like quilt-patches in my book series. We -do- have some strange leaps in technology around that..."

Where do the Nephalim come in? They were the offspring between angels and women. Maybe some of them went rogue and became 'fallen' angels.

[Anna]

The myth of fallen angels dates from around 2,700 B.C. when the Assyrian king (Mesopotamian kings represented themselves as 'gods' to their subjects) sent his most trusted personal guard (who they called 'angels') to conquer the adjacent city-states of Uruk/Ur. After a few years of occupations, men being men, this occupying army began to settle down and identify with the local population. So when the Assyrian king ordered them to raze the city, they said 'screw you' and refused.

Bible scholars jump through all kinds of bizarre hoops to avoid this 2,700 BC date, but there it is. That's when the archeological record supports these events having happened. Which makes it interesting because:

a) Yes, this rebellion really did happen;

b) Because Uruk/Ur used the knowledge of advanced weaponry given to them by the defecting Assyrian army to cast off Assyrian rule, it had a negative impact on all the surrounding city/states;

c) No, these were not celestial beings. These were SOLDIERS who rebelled against their mortal KING.

d) The descendants of these 'fallen' angels still survive today. The minority Yazidi Tribe which now occupies northern Iraq is currently a target for extermination by ISIS. They are not giants.

Back in 2,700 BC, getting enough food and water was always an issue. People were shorter back then. MUCH shorter. Any tribe which lived alongside the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers and knew how to irrigate their fields tended to grow much larger than the folks who lived out in the desert and never got enough to eat. So to a desert dweller whose caloric expenditures were largely expended just to survive, being faced with a well-fed, well-trained, organized army bearing metal weapons and shields would be the equivalent of a primitive tribe today coming up against the full might of the US or a European army.

The origin of the word 'Nephilim' is conflicted. It's a Hebrew word whose root means either 'fallen' (as in 'to make fall down') or 'aggressive.' It's also much NEWER than the original proto-Indo-European language which died out around 600 b.c. My guess is it originally meant 'aggressive' which the Uruk/Ur people definitely were. They were a brutal people, prone to lopping off heads and skinning prisoners alive. Their neighbors had good reason to hate them.

But ... it's also propaganda. Empty 'curses' lobbed by primitive people at the abusive superpower of their day, written down and repeated until the modern day, twisted to new uses until the original meaning has been lost.

No spaceships or celestial beings involved... But WOW it's fascinating as hell!

[Jonathan]

Anna wrote: "The myth of fallen angels dates from around 2,700 B.C. when the Assyrian king (Mesopotamian kings represented themselves as 'gods' to their subjects) sent his most trusted personal guard (who they ..."

That is fascinating Anna, so cool. I knew people were shorter back then, but didn't realize why.

So David could have fought a Nephilim, in Goliath, but it just would have been a really well fed elite soldier. I'll bet Goliath's armor gave him another six inches of height as well, so if he was 7 feet with armor he really would have looked like a giant next to the five foot people around him.

[Anna]

Jonathan wrote: "So David could have fought a Nephilim, in Goliath, but it just would have been a really well fed elite soldier. I'll bet Goliath's armor gave him another six inches of height as well, so if he was 7 feet with armor he really would have looked like a giant next to the five foot people around him...."

Yup ... but as agriculture improved, so did people's height. So Goliath's height was amended in later versions of the bible to say he was 9.5 feet tall instead of 6.5 feet tall. Here's an interesting article which explores the different myths:

https://remnantofgiants.wordpress.com...

[[deleted user]]

Anna wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "So David could have fought a Nephilim, in Goliath, but it just would have been a really well fed elite soldier. I'll bet Goliath's armor gave him another six inches of height as we..."

Very interesting. We went from black satellite to ancient aliens to angels and nephilim. I'm thinking human imagination and twists regarding the facts on actual events is hardly surprising at all. I remember when Boris Johnson was editor of the Spectator newspaper covering the 2003 Iraq invasion. He noted that the Americans were much taller than the indigenous people and that with their webbing and armour and Ray Bands etc looked akin to aliens from another world when compared to the simple attire of the Iraq civilian. So what goes around comes around. We have some great comments on here from people who have given me food for thought. Who has anything to say about the New World order and micro chips in their right hand. I see a lot of youtube stuff out there, possibly Christian faith orientated stance on the mark of the beast etc, but where are we headed I wonder if we all get electronic tattoos or chipped? Improvement of helpful technology or form of hidden oppression?

[Dominic]

Thanks. I'm pinching this. I needed a name for a 1950s U.S. spaceship and now I have one.

[Anna]

Craig wrote: "Very interesting. We went from black satellite to ancient aliens to angels and nephilim...."

My reading interests span both sci-fi and fantasy, so my mind automatically mashes up all sorts of wierdness :-)

[Jonathan]

Anna wrote: "Craig wrote: "Very interesting. We went from black satellite to ancient aliens to angels and nephilim...."

My reading interests span both sci-fi and fantasy, so my mind automatically mashes up all..."

I still have the love of fantasy even if I can't really get into any fantasy books lately. And hearing real world history behind the events found in the Old Testament are always fascinating.

[sailor _stuck_at_sea]

When examining hypothesis like this it's important to look at the base asumptions. In this case that the battle took place at the time and place we're told and only David and Goliath were involved. We have no primary sources so it could easily have been a much earlier tale from somewhere far away. Similarly, David and Goliath could represent two sides ina conflict rather than individuals. Ad in humanitys proclivity for tall tales and David and Goliath could have been two Indian city-states that fought a war that the bigger one won.
Of course this all assumes that the whole thing wasn't made up somewhere along the way.

[sailor _stuck_at_sea]

When examining hypothesis like this it's important to look at the base asumptions. In this case that the battle took place at the time and place we're told and only David and Goliath were involved. We have no primary sources so it could easily have been a much earlier tale from somewhere far away. Similarly, David and Goliath could represent two sides ina conflict rather than individuals. Ad in humanitys proclivity for tall tales and David and Goliath could have been two Indian city-states that fought a war that the bigger one won.
Of course this all assumes that the whole thing wasn't made up somewhere along the way.

[[deleted user]]

Christian wrote: "When examining hypothesis like this it's important to look at the base asumptions. In this case that the battle took place at the time and place we're told and only David and Goliath were involved...."

Yes, I like the metaphor for two armies. It sort of simplifies a bigger event with the moral to the tale at the end. But what about the black knight satellite?

[Jonathan]

Christian wrote: "When examining hypothesis like this it's important to look at the base asumptions. In this case that the battle took place at the time and place we're told and only David and Goliath were involved...."

I think most of the stories in the Old Testament are metaphors for something larger. Since people have always enjoyed a story they can connect with the larger picture was condensed to a smaller one.

[sailor _stuck_at_sea]

Craig wrote: "Yes, I like the metaphor for two armies. It sort of simplifies a bigger event with the moral to the tale at the end."
Well, personally I think it's more apt to say that they take the original tale, warp it so it fits their world view and then apply a morale to it that supports their agenda.

Craig wrote: "But what about the black knight satellite?"
What about it? It a typical anti-intellectual the government is lying type conspiracy hypothesis. It's no different from chem trails and anti vaxers and doesn't deserve any more attention than they do.

[[deleted user]]

Christian wrote: "Craig wrote: "Yes, I like the metaphor for two armies. It sort of simplifies a bigger event with the moral to the tale at the end."
Well, personally I think it's more apt to say that they take the ..."

Oh well. It was interesting and fun while it lasted...

[sailor _stuck_at_sea]

Craig wrote: "Oh well. It was interesting and fun while it lasted... "

I'm sorry? I suppose? I just don't see the point of discussing this kind of conspiracy. The proponents can't provide tangible evidence and the hearsay they do provide can be easily disproven and has been in this very discussion.
Unless someone can provide any new insights there's nowhere for this discussion to go.

The side discussion about the possible origins of popular myths on the other hand is quite interesting.

[Steph]

Do I detect a conspiracy to keep us from talking about conspiracy theories...

[Brendan]

One annoying thing about conspiracy theories is that any attempt to refute them is simply proof that you're part of the conspiracy.

[[deleted user]]

Brendan wrote: "One annoying thing about conspiracy theories is that any attempt to refute them is simply proof that you're part of the conspiracy."

I think at the very least that keeping an eye out for information however outlandish can put someone in the frame of mind to see that not every thing shown to us is fact. Unknown satellites aside or debating moon landings (seem to cause a divide that amounts to naught) but there is a definite pattern over the years that those within a position of power try to hood wink the masses. This isn't really about aliens and all the usual, but the theme of suspicion should remain a fairly healthy thing. I mean, when the moon landings were happening, the Vietnam war was in full swing so I wonder what exactly such parallels or dualities say about the human race. The Black Knight satellite whether real or not, flexes the mind in a fun way. I have to go, I'm about to jump into a chalk drawing on the pavement with a flying nanny.

[sailor _stuck_at_sea]

But crackpot conspiracies doesn't get you to look at the world with a more critical view. Quite the opposite. In order to believe them you have to accept a lot of things that are demonstrably false and reject other things that are demonstrably true. This is not critical thinking, it's stupidity.
And yes I believe people who believes in things that are demonstrably untrue are stupid.

[[deleted user]]

Christian wrote: "But crackpot conspiracies doesn't get you to look at the world with a more critical view. Quite the opposite. In order to believe them you have to accept a lot of things that are demonstrably false..."
Admittedly I never once disagreed and in pulling on a few examples tried to demonstrate that the human imagination is both absurd and wonderful. Belief is an elusive phrase in any case. I neither believe or disbelieve simply because something is said, written or transmitted. Bill hicks once joked that all he ever sees on the news is war and destruction, yet when he looks out of his window everything is quite calm. The fun in speculating about the Dark Knight satellite is that it a) probably isn't there. B) is there but turns out to be a bit of rubbish or c) is an alien probe that exists on an inter multi dimensional basis fleeting in and out of existence in order to spy on humanity. None of these answers really matters, although common sense would dictate that it isn't c. The purpose of conspiracies are about as valid as perhaps the idea of religion. I don't know if God truly exists, but then there are a lot of nice buildings and art that have come from certain faiths. Sort of how theories whether true or not produce some interesting fiction and other ideas that entertain. On a final note, the term stupid is to describe doing something wrong repeatedly without learning a thing. I don't expect anyone lives their lives where a conspiracy theory infringes upon their daily existence more than say having a pizza. It was nice for about half an hour and then it was over. I'm not sure what could be wrong with that, although at the very least a theory has less saturated fat...

[Brendan]

Craig wrote: " I don't expect anyone lives their lives where a conspiracy theory infringes upon their daily existence more than say having a pizza."

Kids die from not getting MMR vaccines, so I think some conspiracy theories have real world harm.

[[deleted user]]

Brendan wrote: "Craig wrote: " I don't expect anyone lives their lives where a conspiracy theory infringes upon their daily existence more than say having a pizza."

Kids die from not getting MMR vaccines, so I th..."

Touch'e. And people used to burn witches. I hadn't actually thought of that. I stand corrected.

[Anna]

I think conspiracy theories are fun so long as one remains skeptical and utilizes a sort of scientific method in analyzing if it might be true. Insofar as the Black Knight satellite, I suppose it's a piece of space junk cast off by an earlier Russian probe.

As for the anti-vaxxers, they had an interesting argument for a while that potentially had some truth to it. I mean, yes, some of the stuff they use sounds like it could be bad. I, for one, got more cautious with my kids and made the doctor gave them their immunizations one shot at a time instead of those 10:1 shots. It was a HUGE inconvenience for me to go to all those separate appointments every few weeks, and to wait for the special-ordered shots that had fewer of certain 'blacklisted' ingredients, but at the time the fraud had not been disproven, so it was how I reduced the risk for my kids. Had the anti-vaxxers been right, I never would have forgiven myself for not being cautious and minimizing the risk. Now, with the youngest kid, he just gets his shots on time. Easier for me. Cheaper, too. What pisses me off about the anti-vaxxers isn't that they challenged the established scientific heirarchy, but that a scientist bald-faced LIED about his research to stir up trouble. That was something I hadn't considered when I got real cautious with shots.