How racist is this series?

[John]

To the OP, we're a culture being conditioned by the media and our government to see racism everywhere we look. When I read this book many years ago this question never entered my mind.

[Will]

John wrote: "To the OP, we're a culture being conditioned by the media and our government to see racism everywhere we look. When I read this book many years ago this question never entered my mind."

I think that's a cop-out response. This series is overwhelmingly supportive of the concept of a person's personality as a reflection of his/her entire race. Time and time again, a person's personality is pointed out as being the result of their race. There are very, very few characters that break the mold and transcend this archetype.

[David]

What everyone needs to remember is that this is a medieval world and our own world history shows that if you were not from a particular culture (as an example Japan [I could pick practically any historical culture]) you were a barbarian and were thought of as less than them, or even as an enemy.
Even different peoples who had the same religion were thought of like this. Its just the way humans are, and Eddings used this sterotype in his books, not just the belgariad an mallorean ones

[John]

Will wrote: I think that's a cop-out response. This series is overwhelmingly supportive of the concept of a person's personality as a reflection of his/her entire race. Time and again...

As I said, I read this series a LONG time ago. We're talking '80s and if the characters displayed this personality trait then either I didn't pick up on it at the time, didn't care, or forgot some time in the 90's. I was under incredible stress at the time (deployed on a nuclear submarine) and it was just escapism for me. So cop-out doesn't apply since that implies I know something 'bad' is going on and decided not to address it. I merely stated that I don't remember thinking that this was a racist book when I read it.

At any rate, suppose Eddings does use this approach for world building. I think it is presumptuous for us to assume he's being racist. As an author myself it is far more likely that he's simply using it as a way to create cohesion between fictional groups. It's hard to do and having people think alike is one way to create the illusion that people are from the same place. No different than having them dress and talk alike. Eddings only has so many pages to build his world so is probably not using this as a surreptitious way to insult some particular race. That's why I refer to this interpretation as a sign of the times.

[Lesley]

Interesting - I grew up amongst one of the largest Jewish communities in the UK, and it never occurred to me to equate Tolnedrans with Jews.

[Will]

John wrote: "So cop-out doesn't apply since that implies I know something 'bad' is going on and decided not to address it. I merely stated that I don't remember thinking that this was a racist book when I read it.

At any rate, suppose Eddings does use this approach for world building. I think it is presumptuous for us to assume he's being racist."

I think you are right on both of these points. It wasn't fair of me to call it a "cop-out."

I wouldn't say Eddings was being racist, more of being complicit, knowingly or not, with racial stereotypes.

[John]

Will wrote: "I wouldn't say Eddings was being racist, more of being complicit, knowingly or not, with racial stereotypes."

And this isn't necessarily racist either. I am doing this same thing in a manuscript I'm developing for a very specific reason and it is not being done in order to excoriate an existing group of people. It is being done as a mirror of our own society, without which the book loses all relevance. Writing is an extremely difficult enterprise and some people will always be offended. What is most important, I believe, is for the writer to stay true to himself. I think that maybe authors (or perhaps it is editors...) trying to keep everyone 'happy' is part of the reason that modern fiction, quite frankly, sucks.

[Michael]

Rena wrote: "Randy wrote: "I would tend to agree with Neal. Once you get further into the series you find that most of the races have both positive and negative traits. Once you get through the Belgariad and ..."

'this is kind of really' is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

[Michael]

People from different regions and cultures do have certain character traits. Pointing it out is not racist. Maybe politically incorrect. We have steriotypes for a reason, because they tend to be true to a certain degree

All that aside, the books are good intertainment although written in a simple way. If you don't like it don't read it.

[Peter]

Has no one considered the religious aspects of the individual races - the people to a large degree mirrored their individual deities.
Sendar/Melcene being the exception.
The problems the races faced was that the supposed time line got screwed up, what was meant to happen ie the emergence of Eriond did not happen so the races fell into a standby mode where nothing happened nothing developed in to just was.
The Eddings were simply telling a story, not using subliminal messaging on the Eugenics, about cause and effect.

[Michael]

Peter wrote: "Has no one considered the religious aspects of the individual races - the people to a large degree mirrored their individual deities.
Sendar/Melcene being the exception.
The problems the races fac..."

Much agreed!

[Will]

Michael wrote: "We have steriotypes for a reason, because they tend to be true to a certain degree"

Actually, that's not true. There are more differences within a race then between other races.

[Lesley]

To have a stereotype isn't necessarily racist. For instance you can have the old "Frenchmen wear berets, English businessmen wear bowler hats, Americans wear stetsons", and that's fine, because there is some truth (or once was) in those stereotypes.
The problem comes when you say "Frenchmen wear berets and therefore they are all stupid" - that's when it becomes racist.

[Will]

This book seems to skip that step, and will flat out state that Membrates are stupid. Even if one exception comes along, I think it's a silly way to develop races, even if that's just how races work in this world. Seems lazy and it isn't done ironically or satirically.

[Peter]

Will wrote: "This book seems to skip that step, and will flat out state that Membrates are stupid. Even if one exception comes along, I think it's a silly way to develop races, even if that's just how races wor..."

No the Membrates are not stupid they are perceived by the other races ie Tolnedreans as lacking a similar standard of sophistication, the males simply are devoid of fear

[Will]

No, Belgarath, even after thousands of years of roaming among all the races, says that Membrates aren't intelligent.

[Jeremy]

Rob wrote: "The Belgariad is in no way racist..."

If Eddings' cookie-cutter races were indeed intended as flat-out analogs for the peoples of Eurasia, then the series is way more racist than suggested in the OP.

[Peter]

Will wrote: "No, Belgarath, even after thousands of years of roaming among all the races, says that Membrates aren't intelligent."

No Belgarath was referring to common sense, not intelligence, think for a minute, who built all those nice strong well designed castles, the knights shinny solid plate armour no thick non intelligent race could have done that.

[Will]

Peter wrote: "No Belgarath was referring to common sense, not intelligence, think for a minute, who built all those nice strong well designed castles, the knights shinny solid plate armour no thick non intelligent race could have done that. "

1. He specifically said they were not smart.
2. Substituting common sense for intelligence doesn't negate the stereotype.

More people are different within groups than between them. In other words, saying an entire race has little common sense is still racist.

[Peter]

Will wrote: "Peter wrote: "No Belgarath was referring to common sense, not intelligence, think for a minute, who built all those nice strong well designed castles, the knights shinny solid plate armour no thick..."

No its not its an opinion.

[Cagne]

Rob wrote: "I have no doubt that fans like everyone participating in this discussion would likely show very little interest in buying these books if there was a significant black presence in a series like Eddings' masterwork. "

What's a preponderantly black fantasy saga?

[Will]

Peter wrote: "No its not its an opinion."

Are you implying that an opinion can't be racist?

[Lesley]

I think Rob's right.
And the only example I can think of, off hand, of a predominantly black, or at least brown-skinned, fantasy series would be Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea.

[Peter]

Will wrote: "Peter wrote: "No its not its an opinion."

Are you implying that an opinion can't be racist?"

Yes if the person expressing it in no way implies it to be in the context of the narrative, through out the Belgariad and the Mallorean Eddings goes out of his way to clearly divide his protagonists on religious not racial grounds ie races follow a given God so its mainly Alorn vs Murgo. They don't get on so why should they not make desparaging remarks about each other its in the aeon built-in nature. The case of Belgarath vs Mimbre, he's 4000 years old for crying out loud, baring Pol and Beldin, he is super intelligent wise etc etc of course he is going to look down on intellectual minows.

[Cagne]

Peter wrote: "Belgarath vs Mimbre, he's 4000 years old for crying out loud"

7000, but apparently that doesn't matter.
- even if it's just one character making a remark about a negative trait in his opinion about a group of people,
- even if individuals from that same group are given space in the books to prove they can go over that negative trait and redeem themselves of the stereotypes about their people
- even if the medieval context is not exactly the land of the politically correctness of a HR person afraid of getting served with a legal suit
- even if giving a vague similarity of said groups to real historical counterpart to allow the reader to immerse himself faster in the story is just a writing trick to save time, and this somewhat reflects the distinction between "good countries" and "evil countries" in popular culture people are already exposed to before reading this book.

there will always be something to complain about and be someone who will slap the book off some kid's hand to save him from being exposed to stereotypes.

People get killed a lot, sometimes in a very graphic way, there's several instances of vigilante justice and a positive feel for death penalty, someone saying Sendarians are thick headed is just the tip of the iceberg.

Hopefully Eddings didn't put in these flaws with malice in support of some misogynist / white supremacist / mccarthyist agenda.

[Will]

"The case of Belgarath vs Mimbre, he's 4000 years old for crying out loud, baring Pol and Beldin, he is super intelligent wise etc etc of course he is going to look down on intellectual minows."

Peter, it's odd that you think it's okay for Belgarath to disparage an entire race because he's so "old, intelligent, wise, etc" (which I would argue that he never revealed any great intelligence beyond what a normal person has). Belgarath even "jokes" that it's the weight of the Mimbrate's helmets that makes them dimwitted. Intelligence is a RACIAL trait, not a religious one, and Membrates were the people of Chaldan who represented ALL of the Arends, not just the Membrates, making it even more obvious that it's a racial issue, not a religious one, as the people that worship the same god aren't characterized in the same bad light. And this is only an example of one set of people. Nearly all peoples in this series have flaws that are represented by their ENTIRE group outside of maybe one or two that are shown to go above the rest.

“Mimbrates are the bravest people in the world --probably because they don't have brains enough to be afraid of anything."

[Peter]

Will wrote: ""The case of Belgarath vs Mimbre, he's 4000 years old for crying out loud, baring Pol and Beldin, he is super intelligent wise etc etc of course he is going to look down on intellectual minows."

P..."

He spent a couple of years studying with a Aldur, he picked a few crumbs of knowledge, studying this or that, several ancient languages come to mind but never mind. Intelligence is learn't not a trait.

[Will]

Peter wrote: "Intelligence is learn't not a trait."

That's not entirely true. Knowledge is gained, but intelligence comes with the capacity to learn and reason, and with numerous other factors, most of which you are either born with or not. This is why, biologically, intelligent people could be bred to produce more intelligent offspring.

[infael]

I've been re-reading the series. I last read it in high school and am now 47 years old. I see no racism at all, whatsoever. What I do see is a very strong sense of nationalism. Might come across as racism to some.

[C.P.]

I'm not sure how you can accuse a 'fantasy' series of being racist. The races in it are all fictional apart from humans.

People don't always get on that is a fact of life but to suggest these books could be is well...funny if not a bit sad.

They are books about a time that didn't exist in a place that's never going to be real. This said if I am honest I would sooner read a book where the characters do unusual things and become memorable.

[Samir]

The racism in the books is not only related in the different nations that are discribed.. but in the typical white and black idea.. that white people are the good folks the do alle the good deeds.. but the bad folks are always the dark skind the liv and breath for evil deeds..
I have read hundres of books but in this last 18 years i have been sorting books off if they have this stupid concept of building af world. becouse i finde it offending..
David Eddings and tolkin and a couple of other authors.. ruinde alot of thier good story telling with this idear of black and white, evil and good thinking.. and i am not basing this on simpel assumption i have read alle the david eddings series including elenium series.. and it is the samme again and again.. sorry i can only see it as racism.
if you compare them in how the diffrent nationcolors are seen in steven eriksons malazan series. or george rr martins books.. that is what i will cal a more realistic.. that what i will call a more realistic way of thinking in nations and colors..
i can understand a nation "whit skind or dark" can have a difrent political position that can be in the way of the main characters story line and be an enemy.. but to be an enemy on simple ideer becouse they are dark skind and that way debicted as evil that is simply stupid..

[Cagne]

Samir wrote: "the bad folks are always the dark skind the liv and breath for evil deeds.."

Oh is Kal Torak dark skinned?

[Samir]

WhiteKanye wrote: "Oh is Kal Torak dark skinned?"

I am not talking of a single chacter or charecters her and there that differ from the norm "there wil alway be some like that in almost evry book"

I am talking of the general idea of the world creation and the sens of the world around where the story happens... it´s stil good "whit skin" vs evil "dark skin" like according to eddings and tokin and som others authors..

look.. i like the story lines alot in all his series.. but it irritats me that i can smell the racism in the books..
I read them when i was a teen so my thoughts were diffrent then. so I enjoyed them alot then.. but as i have gotten older since. i tried to read them again i could not finnish a single book..
and as you can see i gave them 4 stars and that is becouse i injoyd them when i was younger.

[Karl]

I don't think Eddings is racist. Quite the opposite. The Sendars were a mixed race who paid homage to all the gods in the book, and here is what Belgarath said about them:

"I like Sendars. They're a little stuffy sometimes, but I think they're the most decent and sensible people in the world. Their mixed background seems to have purged them of the obsessions that infect other races."

Basically acknowledges both the stereotypes of the other races, as well as praises the mixing of races.

But that is just one comment buried in the mass of all the books, so I can see how he can easily appear racist or at least, unconsciously prejudiced.

[Adrian]

There is no difference in Skin tone between Alorns and Angaraks. Thats why Murgo's can mingle with Alorns with rudimentary disguises. In the books the differences were described as subtle shape of eyes or nose. If one were light skinned and one dark then why bother with those subtle descriptions. Which explains how you can have a half Murgo had half Drasnian royalty.

[Felix]

I read fantasy for enjoyment and the story. Not for the resemblance to real life. If you do the latter I suggest reading non-fiction.

[[deleted user]]

I don't understand the confusion, you said it yourself: the gods made them themselves. Each one was given specific hardware. Don't get me wrong, these books are awful, but they aren't racist.

[Paul]

I don't think eddings david or his books are racist. I just think he took the lazy route and made his world very, very simplistic with sweeping stereotypes so he wouldn't have to put that much thought into his story.

[Freya]

I love these books, and have read them many times. If you read the Rivan Codex you get a vivid window into the background behind each of the decisions Eddings made as a writer.

Even things that he doesn't discuss are pretty obvious, at least to me. Having the Arends the way they are allows him to make a fairly profound comment about historical conflict, and it's just a throw away line from Lelldorin to Garion if you don't get the subtext.

Also the races are not as stereotypical as they appear. The Nadraks and the Drasnians are clearly the closest on the opposite sides of the line, and Drosta is pretty clear that he's no fan of Torak but not willing to put his head on the block either.

The Angaraks being the way they were was pretty much a comment on religious fanaticism and the fear it can engender in society. I think we have all become familiar with that concept, and that it's a bad plan, regardless of the religion the fundamentalists seek to corrupt.

The Bear Cult and the Grolims were both a nasty piece of work, despite one lot having sorcery on their side and the other lot just being a pack of fur wearing morons.

And in reply to the comment that Eddings implies that the "genocide of the Marags" is ok, it is clearly not ok, it breaks everyone's heart (Belgarath was not pleased at being told to leave it alone). But it concludes with the joining of Relg and Taiba, and some thirty years after I first read it, the moment he takes her hand "like he is reaching into a fire", my heart still can barely stand it.

I don't think that Eddings is a lazy writer, but one with a highly developed sense of humour (the comments about boy/girl stuff in the later books are hilarious).

I don't think that the Belgariad is his strongest work, but it is the first series that I read, and I have read it many times over the years. Each time it is like visiting old friends.

[Freya]

WhiteKanye wrote: "Samir wrote: "the bad folks are always the dark skind the liv and breath for evil deeds.."

Oh is Kal Torak dark skinned?"

Oh no! Black hair, pale skin, green eyes. He must be....IRISH!!! Oh the humanity!

[Cagne]

Sorry, I'm not that good at imagining stuff, what ethnicity do you see in Torak? Beside toast.

[Freya]

There are several mentions of various bits of his appearance. Read the books 15+ times and you eventually put it together.

[Freya]

Oh and yes, he's definitely toast. Also "Crispy critter". Can't remember where I stole that one from.

[Powder River Rose]

Felix wrote: "I read fantasy for enjoyment and the story. Not for the resemblance to real life. If you do the latter I suggest reading non-fiction."

I so agree. If one can't read fantasy just for the fun and enjoyment of it why bother..... It's sad people try to conjure up hatred when none was intended.

I read the book for the first time mid-2013 and very much enjoyed it; in fact I was on several waiting lists because I didn't want to stop listening to the story.

Eddings wrote with all the aspects one would hope for in a story, and actually that is what I got from it....hope for a better future where all races could join together in cameraderie and peace. I know, I know, it's a rather simplistic view but, imagine if the conversation started out that way rather than some poor, retched soul not finishing the story and blowing things out of proportion which is, sadly, what we humans have a tendency to do.

Hate begets hate...beauty begets beauty...love begets love and so on. Let's get postive here and work toward our own better future where we can sit around a table in peace and laughter with our fellow earthlings....

[Cagne]

Freya wrote: "There are several mentions of various bits of his appearance. Read the books 15+ times and you eventually put it together."

I guess I can imagine a lot of stuff after I read a book 15 times, but I wont read it 15 times, can't you just do me a favor and talk plainly without sarcasm about your opinion?

[Freya]

WhiteKanye wrote: "Freya wrote: "There are several mentions of various bits of his appearance. Read the books 15+ times and you eventually put it together."

I guess I can imagine a lot of stuff after I read a book 1..."

How you read any sarcasm into my comment is beyond me. I can't remember how many times I've read the books over the last thirty years so I settled for a ball park figure. Nowhere does it say "Torak looked like this", but here and there are little bits that put together like a puzzle give you a picture. I should say that this is over all twelve books, including the two prequels. Here endeth the favour. Now that was sarcasm.

[Cagne]

I didn't understand at all what you meant by:
"Oh no! Black hair, pale skin, green eyes. He must be....IRISH!!! Oh the humanity!" then.

[Greg]

I read this whole series for the first time in the summer of 2010. I enjoyed it, although I did think it was directed a bit more at younger audiences.

I didn't really think there were any issues with it.

Sure liked that snake lady in book 2 as well!

Queen of Sorcery

[Freya]

Clearly.

[Susie]

Randy wrote: "I would tend to agree with Neal. Once you get further into the series you find that most of the races have both positive and negative traits. Once you get through the Belgariad and move in to the..."This is spot on to me. I got very annoyed that every nation has the same stereotyped characteristics