Historical Fictionistas discussion
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Does the book's format influence your enjoyment
I can relate, small print is one of those draw backs that I dislike. My Song of Ice and Fire series is the small paperback version, it has that problem. Being that i'm near sighted and can't use my glasses to read without getting a headache I often times have to bring the book really close to my face, which is annoying when they're SUCH thick books. I'd rather have a thicker book with larger print.Lengthy discriptions are one of those things that will actually make me throw away a book. Tried to read Under the Tuscan Sun a few years back....3 pages about a fence, enough said. It drives me crazy, like give me some credit, I think I can imagine a fence well enough with limited details.
All in all I like actual books better than e-readers, i always feel more accomplished when i can SEE my progress through a book, and I wont lie, i like the smell of old books because it's really comforting. that's my two cents on the subject.
I don't like e-readers. I have a Kindle and iPad loaded with books as well as a stack of some 800 physical books TBR. I see the books. I don't see the eBooks. Guess which get read. I do use eBooks for searching things in a novel and on occasion will get both copies. And I will read an eBook if I have to wait for something away from home. But I never seem to finish an eBook. Also I read a lot of older books, OOP but unavailable as eBooks. Concerning physical book format, I do not read mass market PBs, they're a PITA and the text is too small. I would rather have a hard cover, but a TPB will do in a pinch or if the HC is too expensive.
I do read with wikipedia offline at hand on my iPad.
Oh, and Victoria, I always pay attention to chapter titles and epigraphs (always wondered what they were called), not that I always get the meanings. I often skip poems (hate poetry) unless they're a prophecy or something necessary to the plot.
Maggie wrote: "Personally, I spend so much time writing and doing other business on the computer that it's a relief to read a real book for a change. But I hear from lots of fans who love their e-readers: no book..."INDEED!
Kernos wrote: "I don't like e-readers. I have a Kindle and iPad loaded with books as well as a stack of some 800 physical books TBR. I see the books. I don't see the eBooks. Guess which get read. I do use eBooks for searching things in a novel and on occasion will get both copies. And I will read an eBook if I have to wait for something away from home. But I never seem to finish an eBook. Also I read a lot of older books, OOP but unavailable as eBooks. Concerning physical book format, I do not read mass market PBs, they're a PITA and the text is too small. I would rather have a hard cover, but a TPB will do in a pinch or if the HC is too expensive.
I do read with wikipedia offline at hand on my iPad.
Oh, and Victoria, I always pay attention to chapter titles and epigraphs (always wondered what they were called), not that I always get the meanings. I often skip poems (hate poetry) unless they're a prophecy or something necessary to the plot. "
I think you pay attention to titles, etc because you're reading in paper. Sometimes I wish, at the end of a chapter, I could write a quiz question such as, "The chapter you just read was called 'Fit for the Gods' (the title of the first chapter of Children of Tantalus) - have you figured out the three reasons why?" But I guess it would interrupt the reading experience to be getting tested by the author during it!
Still, it surprises me how little attention that some readers pay to titles - which is inappropriate, given how much work is put into choosing them. In my f2f group we read Water for Elephants and several members were wondering if the story was supposed to be true. If they had studied the title they would have realized the answer.
I think most readers simply don't pay this much attention - nothing to do with the format. Quizzes are going to be a lost cause for the majority. I study titles (when there's that in them to study): ebooks start you at the beginning of the text which is clearly inadequate and I go to the cover and meet the book page by page. To skip the chapter index is crazy, but if they're going to they'd treat a paperback as cavalierly. Readers notice half of what's there to notice or a quarter. We're only human, and I remember from university classes how very major significances fly by. - None of this is a complaint, although I scratch my head from time to time. The only thing I do about it is mention that it's a fine idea to read books twice. And that's when you see the layers in a chapter title.
Oh, I wasn't serious about including a quiz!But regarding reading books at least twice - I usually do. And as authors we try to include little rewards for those who do come back - things that don't appear significant on the first go, but add depth on the second.
It's a temptation to quiz people! That's almost my definition of a good book, that you find more the second time. I worry people don't re-read...
It's a purpose of book discussion groups to learn to read more closely and to discuss such things as chapter titles or levels of meaning. I participate sometimes, if a book is of interest. Victoria's CoT series would be great for discussion from a number of points of view. A quiz would be appropriate in a book club.For me, a lot depends on what and why I am reading. Often I read purely for escape and want a book that's straightforward. This is usually when I've been very busy at work or having life stresses and don't want to have to think. I suspect a lot of readers do this all of the time.
OTOH, I also enjoy reading books that require a lot of reader input and usually re-reading. My Samuel R. Delany project is like this. I read them once for pleasure and again for edification, etc. When I'm in this mood, I often read about the novels. These are my real pleasures. I also think it takes experience to read such books. They are 'easier' now than in my youth.
Hmm. One of the moderators asked me how I, as an author, would feel about supplying questions for discussion. I was asked only theoretically, because the discussion period for Jocasta was officially over. I was sort of on the fence - there are pluses and minuses - but finally I decided that I felt I would be interfering too much if I both wrote the book (well, part of it) AND the discussion questions. That it could intimidate readers -- because of course I have opinions regarding the answers and as an author I could claim to be right!But if readers feel that they would like authors to supply questions, let the moderators know. For me at least my suggestion was not based on a landslide victory - the feelings were very close.
Whatever makes the reading experience better!
Mod
Now that I'm better, I'm really enjoying getting back to some heavier stuff (fantasy, classics, heavier HF). I don't normally re-read --- have been disappointed in re-reading some books I loved in my high school and college years. However, I am actually contemplating re-reading some of the books from high school AP english since I either skimmed them and/or I think I would get more out of them based on new life experience.
For the record, I do look at titles, etc. Even when "kindling", I go to the cover and look at all the pages. I find it jarring that the Kindle drops to the first page of story (and sometimes, it might skip a prologue, so you should always check. I also prefer when there are the marks that show you how far you are in the chapter ---- helps decide if I should stop reading or make it to the next chapter break. Not all books do this, but I really appreciate it!
Mod
For some of the other on-line book groups that I have participated in, some use discussion questions; however, people tend to only answer the questions and not have a dialog. At least for your book (my first group read here) had some good dialog without need of stimulation.
JoLene wrote: "@Victoria --- When there are discussion questions at the end of the book, are those normally supplied by the author or someone in the publishing house?For some of the other on-line book groups th..."
I don't know the answer but I imagine it's a combination.
Certainly the questions re the works of deceased authors are provided by others!
@Victoria --- When there are discussion questions at the end of the book, are those normally supplied by the author or someone in the publishing house?.."My publisher, Penguin, has a team of people whose job it is to come up with all those reading group questions. They send them to me for comment/correction, but otherwise I don't have much input. I'm not sure I like it, but the questions are no longer at the end of the novel, but only accessible from their [and my] website.
Thanks for the reminder. I haven't received the draft questions for
Rav Hisda's Daughter, Book I: Apprentice: A Novel of Love, the Talmud, and Sorcery yet. I need to check with my editor about that.
Maggie Anton
I've generally do not find such packaged questions interesting. They often seem either specious, uninteresting or for school tyros. I may have questions that are of much more interest (for me of course), especially if an author is involved in the discussion. I'm often interested in why an author took one path instead of another, esp in HF novels.
JoLene wrote: "@Victoria --- When there are discussion questions at the end of the book, are those normally supplied by the author or someone in the publishing house?For some of the other on-line book groups th..."
I think this depends not only on the publisher but on author preference as well. I am with an imprint of Penguin but, in contrast to Victoria, I did write the readers guide for my novel. It was something I really wanted to do myself.
Bryn wrote: "...ebooks start you at the beginning of the text which is clearly inadequate and I go to the cover and meet the book page by page ..."I just love this phrasing. That's exactly what I do. I have a Kindle keyboard and what I miss with ebooks is the cover art in color. The trade-off is having the e-ink. I pay attention to the cover art on print books.
I don't so much like to be given a quiz as much as I like to be given promts. "How do YOU feel so-and-so's reaction should have been..." I've read quite a few books that have the little "reding club" section in the back with this exact idea. Sometimes I like it, and sometimes I could care less. I only have online reading groups so maybe that makes a difference. I think however that if there was something on every chapter It would just get tedious and feel less like enjoyable reading and more like school-type-reading.
Sophie wrote: "JoLene wrote: "@Victoria --- When there are discussion questions at the end of the book, are those normally supplied by the author or someone in the publishing house?For some of the other on-line..."
I have always written the discussion questions at the end of my books, always at the request of the editor.
Our books don't currently contain discussion questions, although we did post some at our website.
For a classic historical fiction read, I think a hardback format adds a certain authenticity and feel to it. After that, at least a paperback. That's my opinion for this specific genre more than any other.
Know what might actually be cool though, if there were questions a tthe end of a book, and then the authors answers. Gives you a chance to form your own ideas but also know what the authors true intent was... Maybe?
Mod
I was one of those people who really disliked the idea of Kindles until I actually used one. Now I can't remember the last "real" book I read. Like someone else has mentioned here, if it isn't available on Kindle, chances are I'm not going to buy it.
I hate books which have lots of text in italics, usually to indicate that a letter or diary entry. I find italics very tiring to read. Also don't like hardbacks much because they're difficult to read in bed. As for Kindle, mine has just arrived and I haven't actually read anything on it yet.
I wanted a Kindle when they first came out but didn't get any kind of e-reader until I got my Nook as a Christmas gift a couple of years ago. I do love it and actually prefer to read my fiction that way. I'm not sure why but it seems to go faster and I get more out of it. So I will seek out fiction in e-pub before anything else.Having said that, I still prefer my non-fiction to be in paper book format. For some reason, non-fiction on my Nook just doesn't grab me the way it does if I'm holding the actual book.
I too find italics hard to read. I can't pay the attention to passages in italics, unless extremely motivated.I need non-fic on paper. To make notes, refer back, find things. My old Kindle freezes when I use highlighting or key in notes as heavily as I need to with non-fic, and it's not an adequate system anyhow. Other or updated ereaders may be better for this.
I agree. Nonfiction in paper, for ease of use. Fiction is great on e-book—although I do find that I get more swept into a story if I read it in print (no Goodreads to distract me, LOL).
C.P. wrote: "I agree. Nonfiction in paper, for ease of use. Fiction is great on e-book—although I do find that I get more swept into a story if I read it in print (no Goodreads to distract me, LOL)."I'd probably get distracted by the other features on an ereader, too.
The idea of an e-reader is tempting, but I'm cheap. Really. The idea of buying something to read books on and then having to buy the book as well just doesn't sit too well with me. My library does offer downloadables and if given an e-reader, I'd probably go that route. I've looked into them, but the $100 pricetag is more than I've spent on books in the last 20 years!
I'm old school. I prefer dead pine to plastic and batteries.
Cheryl wrote: "The idea of an e-reader is tempting, but I'm cheap. Really. The idea of buying something to read books on and then having to buy the book as well just doesn't sit too well with me. My library do..."I used to think that but given that ebooks are usually much cheaper than the print version the investment would soon pay off. Plus the fact that there are loads of free books available from Project Gutenberg, not to mention the free Indie books, some of which are worth the read. Anyway, I have to convince myself of this as I've just splashed out on a Kindle Fire which, in addition to being an ereader, can be used for streaming films and television programmes and has an inbuilt camera to be used for skyping.
I'm looking for recommendations for HF in audio, preferably something available from Audible. Periods that are interesting me at the moment are prehistoric/ancient, and elizabethan or Tudor generally. I've read the Klan of the Cave Bear series, or as much of it as I could. Thanks.
I have a NookColor (original one), which has pretty much paid for itself since the time I purchased it about 3 years ago. It saved me a few times when my laptop decided to go haywire. I was at least able to connect online with it. At first I played with the bell and whistles, but over time those things became less distracting. I like that I can highlight, search easily, use the dictionary, etc. I also like that it tells me how many pages I have left in a chapter. There's many benefits to it. Plus, I've downloaded plenty of freebies through Smashwords and B&N and I can use the library's ebook system. I have books at home and borrow plenty from the library though. I take reading in whatever format I can get it. :)
Mod
Most of my fans love their e-readers, and indeed right now about 50% of my sales are for the e-versions of my books. But for fans of historical novels set in unfamiliar foreign locations, populated by characters with strange names, one complaint I hear regularly is that e-readers make it difficult to flip back and forth between front/back matter that they need to consult regularly: maps, glossary, cast of characters, timeline of historical events.Maggie Anton
I am so glad to see the comments about non-fiction on the e-reader, not such a great experience if you're taking notes and flipping back and forth. I've never had time to get an e-reader, and looks like I'll keep it that way, since most of what I read is research. Until maybe my next long trip.
Hilda wrote: "I've just splashed out on a Kindle Fire which, in addition to being an ereader, can be used for streaming films and television programmes and has an inbuilt camera to be used for skyping. "
To be honest, if anything all the extras put me off upgrading my old fashioned wood-burning kindle. It's an e-reader and pretty much all you can do on it is read e-books. Perfect. That, for me, makes it the best piece of technology I own.
Once they start adding features they end up going down the Apple route. The only Apple thing I own (because my wife bought it when I wasn't looking) is an 8Gb iPod. On my 8Gb iPod I can't get 8Gb of music. I can get 6Gb of music, because the rest of the space is taken up by pointless things like an email program and a video phone. If I'd wanted an email program and a video phone I'd have bought an email program and a video phone. I didn't. I wanted an mp3 player to listen to 8Gb worth of music. And while I'm on the subject, if they'd spent a little less time developing rubbish I'll never use and a little more time developing the music playing features, maybe I wouldn't have a shuffle option that out of the 6Gb of music on there insists on playing Sunday Girl by Blondie every third bloody song.
Anyway. Sorry. I need to sit down in a dark room for a moment.
The point I'm making is that I really hope Kindles don't start going the same way.
I'm with Richard. I have an old Kindle, a dedicated ereader. It's for books. Full stop. Last thing I need is a device for distraction. Or it's not so much the distraction as the associations. When I open my Kindle it's to read. It means books to me, that's how and why I can love a slip of plastic. I wouldn't love ebooks opened on random gadgets, I think, I can't be that detached and text-only.
Hilda wrote: "I hate books which have lots of text in italics, usually to indicate that a letter or diary entry. I find italics very tiring to read. Also don't like hardbacks much because they're difficult to re..."I read abook where one character's POV was always in italics; I started skipping his chapters! I also hate books that don't put quotes around dialog. Why make it more confusing for the reader?
I see where you're coming from, Richard and Bryn. My reason for getting the Kindle Fire was that I live in the back of beyond and felt that it would be a safety net in the event of my laptop conking out. At least I'd still be able to access email. Plus I have grandiose ideas about maybe doing skype interviews with book clubs, that's if I manage to work out how to use the thing.
There are books that don't use quotes? I'm blind, and do all my reading using audio books. This is tough as a writer because it makes it easy to miss things. I'm always interested to learn about formatting issues that might escape me. No quotes? Why? How confusing! Diane Scott wrote: "Hilda wrote: "I hate books which have lots of text in italics, usually to indicate that a letter or diary entry. I find italics very tiring to read. Also don't like hardbacks much because they're d..."Diane Scott wrote: "Hilda wrote: "I hate books which have lots of text in italics, usually to indicate that a letter or diary entry. I find italics very tiring to read. Also don't like hardbacks much because they're d..."
Christine wrote: "There are books that don't use quotes? I'm blind, and do all my reading using audio books. This is tough as a writer because it makes it easy to miss things. I'm always interested to learn about fo..."Cold Mountain was one such book. I stopped reading it for that reason. I kept confusing the inner dialog, with the actual dialog. Why, authors?
Christine wrote: "There are books that don't use quotes?"Argall too that I'm into at the moment. He gives you a dash at the start of speech if it's within a paragraph. I get used to it, and I read his Fathers and Crows that way. But I think he's an example of doing it well, and his dashes are the aid you need.
To answer the original question, the format can have a lot to do with my enjoyment. I agree with many previous posters. There are pros and cons to almost any format. Traditional books are cumbersome for traveling and that is what made me desire an eReader. Once I switched to a carry-on bag, I was forced to forego the luxury of tossing in an extra 3 or 4 books for a trip. Books with maps, additional information, and indexes are easier in a traditional format. However, when I want to look up a word, I love the "click and see" capability of my Kindle. I have found myself trying it unsuccessfully with traditional books.
I didn't see too much discussion of one of my faves -- audio books. Since I have a lengthy commute, I listen to books daily. I find that I prefer certain kinds of books in this format -- plot-based stories that capture my attention. The production is incredibly important. My enjoyment/opinion of a book depends very much on the narrator and the direction. I seem to find men voicing women more problematic than women voicing men.
Christine wrote: "There are books that don't use quotes?"Cormac McCarthy does it a lot. I've only read The Road and No Country For Old Men but neither of those use quotes for speech. I don't mind it. I get used to it after a few pages.
I love reading in Kindle, too, but publishing in it can be inconvenient sometimes because graphics like maps don't turn out well, and I LOVE doing my own maps!
Maps & family trees are my biggest pet peeve on the ereader. It's really hard seeing them and I hate that you can't zoom in. I don't have an issue with the glossary because it's easy to book mark it. Most of the time if the ebook is formatted correctly it's right in the table of contents making it easy to go too.
This sounds absolutely bizarre! Does anyone know the reasoning behind it? I've never heard of this! Richard wrote: "Christine wrote: "There are books that don't use quotes?"Cormac McCarthy does it a lot. I've only read The Road and No Country For Old Men but neither of those use quotes for speech. I don't mind..."
Christine wrote: "Does anyone know the reasoning behind it?"Hard to say. I've had the dim sense that it suits these books (the William T. Vollmanns I mentioned) and I've tried to think why that is. I learnt to like it, for these books.
I forgot, though, he uses a double space too, to start and end speech. You get used to it...
Historical Fictionistas
Books mentioned in this topic
The Return of the Native (other topics)The Quarry (other topics)
March (other topics)
The Fencing Master (other topics)
Andersonville (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Spencer Quinn (other topics)Thomas Hardy (other topics)
Geraldine Brooks (other topics)
MacKinlay Kantor (other topics)
William T. Vollmann (other topics)
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Maggie Anton