A Tale of Two Cities - Book the First - chapters 1 - 6 *SPOILERS allowed*

[[deleted user]]

Still, he appears to be taking the brutality of the times (1780s) to make a point about current conditions. I was especially struck by the sentiment expressed by the warden at the Old Bailey "He'll be convicted, all right" (paraphrasing here the lack of faith in a fair trial), and at the quite detailed list of all the minor crimes that merited major punishment.

[Kim]

I'm sure that was exactly what Dickens was doing. The criminal law was marginally less brutal than it had been in the 18th century, but it was a matter of degree, not of absolutes.

[[deleted user]]

A hundred years hadn't changed much.

And, I just realized, I should be discussing this on the other thread!

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Kim wrote: "It's early days yet, but I suspect I may find Mlle Manette annoyingly insipid; one of those die-away Victorian heroines who can do no wrong. I hope that my suspicion will prove unfounded, but I wouldn't bet on it. ."

She is perfection personified, an angel walking among mere mortals, at least so far (book 2, chapter XII). A modern author would be put to one of the torture methods mentioned if they were to write a heroine like that today. Chapter X was very sticky sweet in describing this perfection, so be warned if you haven't made it there yet.

Jeannette wrote: "As far as Book One goes, Manette is like Monte Cristo (so far) because they were both imprisoned for many years by the French. Manette seems a broken shell of a man, bent into submission by long years locked away. Monte Cristo maintained his vigor and intelligence, and came out ready for a fight.

I assume that both Manettes are fleshed-out in the next part of the story (don't tell me yet!!). "

That's what I meant by being the exact opposite to Monte Cristo, how each man came out of their long imprisonment totally different.

I agree with Jemidar that the main reference of the wine and blood is foretelling of the blood to be spilled. And here with this scene and upcoming ones, the wine/blood is dealing with the peasants and we know will reverse itself to be the blood of the aristocracy. I can also get the allusion to the religious matter of wine being the blood of Jesus, but the resurrection reference may be more the point there. Level, so many levels, the more you dig the more you can find. Religion really isn't an issue in the revolution, as Jemidar mentioned, except as another voting class. Although they did not have to pay taxes and at the higher levels they were known for their heavy spending as well.

I find this bit of information interesting about the sabots, wooden shoes, and the 20th c. word sabotage, from Stanford site, that's also where the illustration came from http://dickens.stanford.edu/dickens/a.... "the word “sabotage” derives from the rebellious use to which the laboring classes put their sabots. The OED gives the following derivation from the French word “saboter” – “to make a noise with sabots, to perform or execute badly, e.g. to ‘murder’ (a piece of music), to destroy willfully (tools, machinery, etc.).” Sabots, in short, have become symbolic of working-class rebellion and revolution.

[Jemidar]

Kim wrote: "It's early days yet, but I suspect I may find Mlle Manette annoyingly insipid; one of those die-away Victorian heroines who can do no wrong. I hope that my suspicion will prove unfounde..."

I think your suspicions are going to be well founded as I believe she was based on Dickens' mistress who was an actress and the love of his life.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Marialyce wrote: "There were not many Victorian authors who were able to step out of that Victorian mold of the appropriate woman. I love Wilkie Collins because his women characters were admirable as well as having ..."

Marialyce, have I mentioned the William J. Palmer series with Collins and Dickens helping out a Bow Street Runner and trying their hand at detecting, rather like the Wilde book. I've read the first two and have the remaining two in my TBR pile. I really enjoyed the insights into their friendship and Collins' bawdy ways are not swept under the rug.

So glad Margaret asked about your background, it makes so much sense now why you know so much of Dickens and his times.

[[deleted user]]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "... except as another voting class. Although they did not have to pay taxes and at the higher levels they were known for their heavy spending as well. "

Which describes perfectly what is happening in Italy today, with some added corruption and criminality thrown in. Fortunately the Italians are a peaceful people (or perhaps too socially disorganized): my husband and I are still wondering when the revolution will start here.

And YouLearnSomethingNewEveryDay: Sabotage! brilliant... I'm a little behind reading the stanford notes.

[Marialyce]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "There were not many Victorian authors who were able to step out of that Victorian mold of the appropriate woman. I love Wilkie Collins because his women characters were admirable ..."

I have not read those books, but they do sound great, so I will take a look. Thank you!
Some say we here in the USA, are also headed towards a "revolt" of sorts. So many out of work and losing their homes....

[MichelleCH]

I just saw the return of Occupy Providence after our 38 Studios debacle...what brainiac decided to give Curt Schilling a 75 million dollar loan? http://news.providencejournal.com/bre...
We need jobs not deals. Those employed through his company, for the most part, weren't even from the state..

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Hayes, I haven't heard about the unrest in Italy, except for the economy problems like here in the U.S. Is that what is sparking Italy's problem?

Marialyce, I'm glad I mentioned the Palmer books and I almost didn't, thinking you had read them already. Don't forget our market too, so shaky. The whole country's economy, and maybe the worlds, is as shaky as an elephant trying to cross a fraying rope bridge. Yet, all we hear, outside the political ads, are things are getting better, where? Show me some stability someplace.

Michelle, that bites, his company is defaulting on a loan, costing the state 100 million but he's still sitting there with all his money. To think that 75 million could have been used to help so many other small businesses. Wasn't there collateral put up for the loan or just given based on his name?

[[deleted user]]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Hayes, I haven't heard about the unrest in Italy, except for the economy problems like here in the U.S. Is that what is sparking Italy's problem?
"

The first payment of the "austerity tax" is due in a week's time, with the second payment at the end of the year. It is almost three times the usual property tax payment and we all were swallowing this bitter pill so that Italy does not follow Greece's example, etc., etc.

And then the news that a high Vatican official (or two or three) bought a luxurious apartment somewhere and didn't pay any taxes at all, because it was bought with Vatican money and so exempt... I can't remember all the details, however. The Vatican bank is in trouble as well. The Pope's personal "butler" (or whatever his position is) was arrested for stealing documents, but it's all very fishy... sounds like it might be a set up.

The Vatican doesn't pay property tax on any of its properties. I'm not talking about the churches themselves, I'm talking about hotels and other businesses, on Vatican land, run by the Vatican and making money for the Vatican.

And that's just the vatican; the parliament is even worse!
[rant over]

So needless to say, we are all a little edgy and angry, but as I said, Italians are a peaceful people... but I wonder for how much longer.

[Marialyce]

Hayes, it seems endemic the world is in deep trouble....it constantly riles me up that the church, particularly the Catholic Church owns so much. They could probably sell a few of their major art works and bail the country out of debt. I can't for the life of me understand how they can hold onto all their treasures while the poor of the world are starving.

Just like they bellyache about the lack of priests yet, won't allow women to be priests. But...that is another story isn't it?

[[deleted user]]

It wouldn't be so bad if the prevailing message wasn't so obviously "Don't do what I do; do what I say". It really is another story, and so I won't go on...

*sigh*

[Jemidar]

The Vatican's lack of paying property tax has been the subject of investigative journalists even here. One of better current affair programs ran the investigations findings and it was awful just how corrupt it all was!

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Are they actually calling it the austerity tax, or is that what the press and people have called it? That's c going to be tough for a lot of people to come up with that money twice in a 6 month period, ouch! We can all feel that one.

These Catholic business, are these for profit? Or do they make that distinction over there? But in an emergency like this why not do the magnanimous and Christian thing, then the Catholic church could prove something by their actions, same with the parliament. A win-win on so many fronts but... Even if just their business ventures were taxed, it would help with some of the tax burden. Instead it makes them look like they are above it all, kind of like the Monseigneur with the four men to serve his chocolate! Waste, spend, talk but don't do anything to actually show how much you want to help

I have heard about the Pope's personal assistant/butler and those problems. I also saw a report on Greece, Italy and Spain (I believe) and what will happen if they default. The domino affect, if this happens, is scary and would make 2008 look like nothing. It is very scary for the small investors, like us, who are finally back in the green again. Corruption and greed make me sick, it's why we are here, and the people/organizations who cause or could be of some help keep their money.

[[deleted user]]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Are they actually calling it the austerity tax, or is that what the press and people have called it? "

No, that's what I'm calling it. It's called the IMU, Imposta Municipale Unica, the Single Municiple Tax, which is grouping some smaller taxes into one single payment, which is good, and increasing the level of property tax paid, which is both good and bad. I'm not against paying taxes in principle. I think, however, that we should all be equal under the law and that we should all pay taxes based on our income level (hear that, Mitt Romney, and all you Italians who aren't paying taxes at all?!)

Yes, the Vatican businesses are definitely for profit, and there is the distinction here, which is why they are able to get away with it. They are the church so they don't pay taxes, period. The Vatican is one of the largest land owners in Rome, since time immemorial.

Unfortunately the businesses in question are not only nursery schools, or soup kitchens, they are 4 and 5 star hotels, luxury apartment buildings, commercial operations, etc., all paying huge amounts of rent to the Vatican. Tax Free. The money goes into the Vatican bank and then disappears, as the Vatican Bank doesn't have to play by the same rules as everyone else either.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

I had a feeling it wasn't what the tax was really called, that would be bold of a government. I agree with equal taxes, and as a tax preparer don't understand why they have to make it so complicated. My theory is to keep the people, who do pay, in fear so they overpay and it works very well over here. Most people don't take advantage of all their tax write-offs and breaks over fear of doing it wrong and the extra work, mainly those forms, that are involved. The government will go out of its way to get what it is owed but won't do anything to make sure you get back any overpayment.

I've saw a documentary (very sanitized I'm sure) on these commercial ventures of the church, as well as their holdings. The church is a multi-billion dollar organization, I just don't understand why a for-profit venture is not taxed. Charities get the same treatment here which is why so many companies masquerade and file as a charity. This stuff frankly pisses me off.

Back when this crisis first started someone proposed that every tax-payer receive 1 million dollars. People laughed but it would have cost less and prevented most of the mortgage failures, small business failures, credit card defaults, put more money into the economy and taken people off government support. Sure this is an over simplification but basically spread out the help and the burden to everyone. That's all you or I are saying.

[[deleted user]]

I spoke too soon. There were problems yesterday, demonstrators and police injured, sections of the city under siege... it was only a matter of time.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Oh no, so this book has got to be life imitating art, imitating life. Either way this will be a book you probably will never forget because of its personal ties. Are you in a safe area? I hope things settle down quickly.

[MichelleCH]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Hayes, I haven't heard about the unrest in Italy, except for the economy problem like here in the U.S. Is that what is sparking Italy's problem?.."
There is some forensic accounting going on, but my understanding is that the loan was given based on his name and he promised that headquarters would be based in RI. I believe Massachusetts said no to the idea, so that is why he ended up here.

[[deleted user]]

Michelle, I just saw your message with the link. That's just the kind of thing that happens here all the time. You've got a big name and/or a big friend somewhere and you get big bucks... and then normal people have to pay for your mistakes. So angry making! Our cousin and his wife, who both have jobs with a big state run organization no less, weren't able to find a mortgage for the longest time. The banks said they didn't have money to lend. Huh?

And thanks, Dawn. Everything is fine here where I live.

[MichelleCH]

Jemidar wrote: "The Vatican's lack of paying property tax has been the subject of investigative journalists even here.
And the accumulation continues as property continues to be bequeathed to the church. All tax free.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Michelle, I think the Schilling debacle is an example of how we got in this economic crisis, why it is so hard for us to climb out, and why there will always be such a big divide.

Hayes, in both these situations, as long as rules are changed to accommodate the rich and powerful the average person will continue to pay. The thing that bothers me with both, besides the frustratingly unfair situation of having to pay for others mistakes and greed (R.I. the greed of Schilling and the financiers, Rome the greed and power of the church) is the example each could set but doesn't. Schilling or his company could have taken on risk, showing good faith that they didn't want to further burden the people and the church could set a bigger example by standing behind what they preach. But no the people or powers that can have such an impact rarely make that sacrifice.