A Tale of Two Cities - Book the First - chapters 1 - 6 *SPOILERS allowed*

[[deleted user]]

Chap. 4 :

Reminiscent of the Count of Monte Cristo... must have been a bad habit of the French police at that time!

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Geevee wrote: "Well I'm up to page 30 and I liked the description of the stage coach and the tensions on the journey but the digging and 18 years has left me foxed; no doubt all will come clearer."

Yes, Geevee, I think we all felt that way but it gets cleared up fairly quickly.

I'm only at page 41, long day out of town and I'm quite tired so I'm not sure how much reading I will get done and with Dickens you need your wits about you.

This quote struck me, I think more for who it refers to. "No human intelligence could have read the mysteries of his mind, in the scared blank wonder of his face."

[[deleted user]]

I'm in the middle of chapter 6

(view spoiler)[Very emotional meeting between father and daughter, and the bit about the hair so romantic, even if it was a bit over the top. But I imagine that the audience of the day loved it, and it made for good sales. (hide spoiler)]

[Marialyce]

Hayes wrote: "I'm in the middle of chapter 6

[spoilers removed]"

You bet. We still like anything that pulls at our heart strings don't you think? I think their relationship is quite touching, but am anxious to know what the poor man did to get locked up in the Bastille. (at least I think it was the Bastille!)

[Geevee]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "I'm only at page 41, long day out of town and I'm quite tired so I'm not sure how much reading I will get done and with Dickens you need your wits about you..."

Yes I have found that you really need to be thinking about what you are reading as there is depth and meaning that should you let your mind wander you'll miss something important or find you're having to re-read.

[Sylvia]

Hey everyone, I'm joining this read. Have read some 9% of it and I love the way Dickens is describing the coach drive to Dover. I even shivered of the cold, but it also possible it was because of the bad weather in the Netherlands.;)

[[deleted user]]

Hi Sylvia, welcome to the Buddy Read! Glad you are joining us :-)

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Hayes wrote: "I'm in the middle of chapter 6

[spoilers removed]"

So totally agree, quite palpable! I even highlighted that same quote "His cold white head mingled with her radiant hair, which warmed and lighted it as though it were the light of Freedom shining on him.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Hi Sylvia, Jeannette mentioned you would be joining us, glad to finally meet you. Just wait until you get to some of the upcoming chapters and get swept up by Dicken's descriptive powers.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

I am in book the second, chapter IV, I'm going to check on the next thread.

[[deleted user]]

This must be a good read, since all the self-professed slowpokes are way ahead!

[Sylvia]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Hi Sylvia, Jeannette mentioned you would be joining us, glad to finally meet you. Just wait until you get to some of the upcoming chapters and get swept up by Dicken's descriptive powers."

I love Dickens, although his English is sometimes difficult. I read: Oliver Twist, The Pickwick Papers and A Christmas Carol. I own a box set of films of the most renowned books of Dickens. A Tale of Two Cities is one of them.

[Sylvia]

Hayes wrote: "Hi Sylvia, welcome to the Buddy Read! Glad you are joining us :-)"

Thanks, Hayes!

[[deleted user]]

Hayes wrote: "Chap. 4 :

Reminiscent of the Count of Monte Cristo... must have been a bad habit of the French police at that time!"

Except it sounds like this one may not have been burning to get out and exact a terrible revenge.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Jeannette wrote: "Hayes wrote: "Chap. 4 :

Reminiscent of the Count of Monte Cristo... must have been a bad habit of the French police at that time!"

Except it sounds like this one may not have been burning to get out and exact a terrible revenge. "

I would say exactly the opposite, Dr. Manette seemed to lose touch with reality during his confinement. I hope we find out what and who was the cause of his imprisonment.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Jeannette wrote: "This must be a good read, since all the self-professed slowpokes are way ahead!"

This slowpoke got a days head start from the official start of June 1st, so that helps. But it has been easier to understand, after the difficult, dense with allusions 1st and 2nd chapters.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Sylvia wrote: "I love Dickens, although his English is sometimes difficult. I read: Oliver Twist, The Pickwick Papers and A Christmas Carol. I own a box set of films of the most renowned books of Dickens. A Tale of Two Cities is one of them."

Being a classic movie fan, I have to ask which film versions you own in that box set and which are your favorites in capturing the flavor of Dickens?

[[deleted user]]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "Hayes wrote: "Chap. 4 :

Reminiscent of the Count of Monte Cristo... must have been a bad habit of the French police at that time!" I would say exactly the opposite, Dr. Manette seemed to lose touch with reality during his confinement. "

I'm not far enough along to make that call yet. I'm still in Dover, with the banker and Miss Manette.

[MichelleCH]

Catie wrote: "I think more than setting the stage for the unrest, he's also saying, you know that really old famous person - he/she was young then, etc. I don't think historical fiction was a very common thing w..."
I think her looker status came from her taste and in her ability to directly influence fashion. Marie Antoinette was also known to have perfect white unblemished skin, a major asset to those who wrote about it.

[Jemidar]

Jeannette wrote: "I'm not far enough along to make that call yet. I'm still in Dover, with the banker and Miss Manette.
"

I'm already further along than you are. I've made it to France :-).

[[deleted user]]

I'm back in England now, just beginning Book Two.

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Jeannette wrote: "I'm back in England now, just beginning Book Two."

Yay! See you will be zooming by me in no time. So, what do you think of the Monte Cristo comparison?

[Margaret]

Stupid internet outage! Look at all this catching up I have to do and not to mention all of these conversations I've missed out on. I have read all of your comments on this thread and partly out of jealousy due to my forced non participation I am going to make up for lost time. Here's what I have to say:

First, so glad Hayes asked that question about the Cock-lane ghost and Mrs. Southcott *and* Marialyce answered it. That link was also very much appreciated!

Also, to Marialyce: I confess I'm very curious about your educational background (in a good way, of course). Just judging by your posts I'm wondering if you are at the very least a history buff and/or have a degree in literature, or possibly a librarian? You seem to know a lot about Dickens and also the history of his times and the time of the French Revolution.

Now, I have to make this comment on the tiny little minor thing I had a problem with in Book 1: Okay, that scene where where the wine bottles shattered and everyone gathers around to scoop it up and drink? I know I'm being a nitpick in saying this; and NO it's nothing against (my Charlie) Dickens - I LOVE Dickens! BUT...where was the reference to the shattered glass that would have no doubt been mixed in with the wine puddles? Dickens gave such a detailed visual of people scooping up the wine with their hands etc., I admit I was thinking of all those glass shards that would have cut hands and fingers in the process of what they were doing. But from reading the narrative the broken glass became nonexistent from the moment it shattered and made wine puddles. I know we "could" argue the wine was red and everyone's fingers were red from being in the wine but there was not one reference to cut hands or glass fragments anywhere at all. I just thought with all of his description to how that horde of people attacked the wine he could have at least thrown in a phrase about them scooping up the wine, oblivious to the pieces of glass that occasionally went down the throats of the greediest drinkers...something! I just wish he had remembered that in addition to the wine on the ground there would have also been plenty of broken glass.

There. I said it.

[Jemidar]

Margaret, it was a wine cask/barrel that broke open. No glass involved only wood and steel.

"A large cask of wine had been dropped and broken, in the street..., the hoops had burst, and it lay on the stones just outside the door of the wine-shop, shattered like a walnut-shell."

[Margaret]

Okay, thanks for clarifying. :)

[Dawn (& Ron)]

Hi Margaret, I feel your pain but am glad you are back! It was a wine cask or barrel that broke if I remember correctly. I remember it shattering like a walnut shell or something. I believe they still mostly transferred spirits in barrels then and not in glass bottle yet. Unless I have the wrong scene, this was in chapter 5 or 6 of book one, is that the same scene?

I was glad of the Cock-lane ghost question too, and loved the link on that. I've wondered the same thing on Marialyce and she is eclipsing all of us. Have you checked out this link from earlier in the thread? http://dickens.stanford.edu/dickens/a...
Very, very helpful.

[Margaret]

Yes it was the same scene. I saw your comment referencing that one and that's what reminded me of what I had a problem with. I guess I was thinking of a cask of wine like a casket of wine bottles...similar to how milk bottles used to be delivered in the 50's and earlier? That's the part that confused me. I'm good now. LOL.

Oh and yes I did notice that link! I was so occupied in reading the 5 pages of historical references behind the creation of this book I didn't think of looking over the whole site. I will right now because I got slightly confused over the names in chapters 7 and 8 of Book 2...not saying one more word about that one here though. LOL

[Dawn (& Ron)]

I had some confusion too in those chapters, PM if you like, to see if we had the same problem. You are caught up to me already, see you in the Book Two thread. I'm starting chapter 9.

[Marialyce]

Margaret wrote: "Stupid internet outage! Look at all this catching up I have to do and not to mention all of these conversations I've missed out on. I have read all of your comments on this thread and partly out of..."

Margaret, I was a teacher of math and YA literature for middle school before I retired. The reason I am familiar with Dickens is because I recently let a discussion on him and two of his novels, Bleak House and Our Mutual Friend on another site here on goodreads. I read up a lot about Dickens before I did that group read. I also benefit from learning a lot about the Victorians because I co moderate the Victorian site here on goodreads. I also have read a few other of Dickens works as well and thank you for asking.

[Kim]

I've joined the party - better late than never! I got through Book I and the first bit of Book II today. Good creation of atmosphere in the first chapter and interesting exposition, by which I mean not too much exposition. I guess that suits the serial form: you want your readers to have lots of questions and you need them to tune in next week for the answers.

It's early days yet, but I suspect I may find Mlle Manette annoyingly insipid; one of those die-away Victorian heroines who can do no wrong. I hope that my suspicion will prove unfounded, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[[deleted user]]

Dickens is not famous for his wonderful female characters, after all.

[Marialyce]

There were not many Victorian authors who were able to step out of that Victorian mold of the appropriate woman. I love Wilkie Collins because his women characters were admirable as well as having human faults and traits and he did not make them suffer.....well he did for a bit, but then usually they had happy endings. (unlike Hardy and Dickens and others)

[Kim]

I agree, Marialyce. Collins wrote some excellent female characters. Marian Halcombe is one of my favourite characters in Victorian fiction, although Laura Fairlie is pretty wet!

As for Dickens, I don't know his work well enough to have much of an opinion about his female characters, although the ones I know are not that interesting. However, the English actress Miriam Margolyes has a bit of a thing for Dickens' women. She does a one-woman show about Dickens' female characters. Margolyes spends most of her time in Oz these days and has toured the show here several times. If I really get into Dickens, maybe I'll go and see it one day.

[[deleted user]]

Dawn (& Ron) wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "I'm back in England now, just beginning Book Two."

Yay! See you will be zooming by me in no time. So, what do you think of the Monte Cristo comparison?"

As far as Book One goes, Manette is like Monte Cristo (so far) because they were both imprisoned for many years by the French. Manette seems a broken shell of a man, bent into submission by long years locked away. Monte Cristo maintained his vigor and intelligence, and came out ready for a fight.

I assume that both Manettes are fleshed-out in the next part of the story (don't tell me yet!!).

[[deleted user]]

I found the wine scene a bit disgusting: people scooping up wine mingled with mud, gnawing on the wood of the barrel staves, wringing wine out of rags. Dickens uses a lot of visuals to get a point across, in an indirect way (equating wine with blood).

[[deleted user]]

A reference to power of the catholic religion in France, do you think?

[[deleted user]]

Interesting. I hadn't thought about it that way. I just saw it as illustrating how desperate the people were, and how low they had sunk, to make a party out of this wine spilled in the street.

[[deleted user]]

I thought that too, until the guy wrote on the wall with the wine.

[[deleted user]]

I'm still tying everything to the French Revolution, and all the reasons that the Crown (in both France and England) was finding for putting people to death. So, wine -> blood -> death allusion was clear, but now you have the wine -> blood allusion to the Catholic church. Was the Church still involved in persecuting people at the time of the Revolution (should I be thinking of Richelieu?)?

[Marialyce]

Maybe think of the Catholic mass in this case. Wine signifying the blood of Christ who is reborn/resurrection. There are a lot of resurrection type characters in this novel....Dr Manette, ( I will only mentioned him right now although there are more.) Manette is said to have been "recalled to life" by Lorry. The peasants will be recalled to life by the spilling of blood as well. There is also the theme of sacrifice, again a Catholic issue. God sacrificed his only son for the rebirth of the people.

[Laura]

No Jeannette, it was a matter of monarchy revenge against the proletariat with minor participation of the Catholics in this particular case.

[Marialyce]

Kim wrote: "I agree, Marialyce. Collins wrote some excellent female characters. Marian Halcombe is one of my favourite characters in Victorian fiction, although Laura Fairlie is pretty wet!

As for Dickens, I ..."

Two wonderful characters, Kim. I so liked them too....

[[deleted user]]

Thanks! Now I've got the proper connection between the wine and the blood -- it makes sense. I'm jumping in without much background here, except for the bare minimum that everyone should know about the French Revolution

[Jemidar]

I think the reference to blood is more about what is to come as the French Revolution was very bloody with stages that became known as the "September Massacres" and "the Reign of Terror." At times the guillotine just couldn't keep up with the demand and there there was a backlog waiting to be beheaded even with every guillotine in the city working from dusk to dawn. The streets were said to be awash with blood. Hence the spilled red wine in the street outside the wine shop owned by someone who I'm sure is going to turn out to be a political radical.

The other people in the wine shop scene are what's referred to as sans-culottes they were the city poor, the ones that were starving and desperate and the ones that initially revolted by storming the Bastille. There's a reference in the scene about wine stained wooden shoes or wooden soles of shoes (forget which) which is what they typically wore so Dickens is specifically identifying them. The guy writing blood on the wall is I think also Dickens' heavy handed foreshadowing of what is to come--the urban poor baying for blood.

There was no religious significance to the French Revolution other than the clergy were another privileged class that were oppressing the poor. As the first estate they also had a role in government at the Estates General (the rudimentary French parliament of the time) along with the nobles (second estate) and bourgeoisie (third estate). The fourth estate (proletarian and peasant classes) were the only estate not represented so had no voice in government.

I'm seeing Dickens doing a lot of heavy handed foreshadowing here about the course the revolution is going to take. It helps if you at least know the basic outline of events as some are fairly specific references. As the book progresses it should all become clearer.

I'm a bit inclined to disagree with the "twos" theory. Yes, Dickens was pairing things but I feel he was only comparing them in how they contrasted. The French Rev at its heart was a revolution of extremes--the very rich against the very poor, the powerful against the powerless. Thus the endless comparison of opposites in the opening paragraph of the book which I thought really belaboured the point.

I'm finding many of the allusions quite heavy handed and I'm getting the feeling that Dickens thought himself too clever by half! But that is probably just me as Dickens and me have never really got on.

[[deleted user]]

Interesting, again, how I can agree with both the resurrection motif (wine into blood), and the wine/blood in the streets fore-shadowing the work to come for the guillotine. Unfortunately, I have a rather rudimentary outline of the events of the French Revolution. We'll see how good the story is to a reader like me.

I also find the allusions a bit heavy-handed, especially when they run on for many paragraphs. I feel like I'm being beaten with them sometimes.

[[deleted user]]

Very heavy handed, but I hadn't thought about the foreshadowing of the September Massacres, etc. Even in Dickens' time it must have felt very close, still very raw, first the American Revolution and then the French.

[[deleted user]]

I also noticed, running through the narrative, Dickens "railing" against the system of justice in England. The descriptions of the punishments, the callousness of the system and the crowds. As I tend to think of Dickens as a reformer, were things still like this in his time, all these awful executions, a system with no mercy or pity?

[Marialyce]

Dicken positively hated the court system and had little respect for lawyers. He seemed to develop those intense feelings from his work as a law clerk and also some legal issues he had involving copyright of his early books. Bleak House is his rousing condemnation of the legal system. He was particularly scared by his father's stay in debtor's prison.

When I was doing some looking into Dickens time and life, I thought this site to be wonderful.
http://charlesdickenspage.com/dickens...

[[deleted user]]

Thanks for the link, Marialyce. I'll check it out.

[Kim]

Jeannette, there were various reforms in the English legal system throughout the 19th century. However, the situation remained dire for the poor. Imprisonment for debt continued until 1869 and transportation (the most serious punishment after execution) wasn't abolished until at least the 1850s. People could be - and were - executed and transported for relatively minor crimes, certainly until Dickens' adulthood, although it must be said that execution was usually reserved for objectively more serious offenses.