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Those descriptive phrases that you over-use.
Kevin wrote: "Hello dear authors. This is more a seeking advice post than feedback, as I'm sure a few of you can point me in the right direction.Working with my editor, she pointed out that I often would give ..."
Never underestimate the intelligence of your reader. You should hang at the locally-owned gas station one evening. Crack open a bottle of Coke and just listen to the way men talk. Women do this, too, but with men it's really over-exaggerated. For affirmative situations, there doesn't need to be a "spelling out" with nodding, beaming or any other adjective. Sometimes, if a character has no problem with what's been said, he'll make no objection by simply moving the conversation forward. This is what men do best.
And make sure you're not overusing (one word, not hyphenated) these adjectives as a mild form of said-avoidance, which is a good sign you're a beginner. Sometimes, it's okay to simply let the reader fill in the blanks, or for you, the author, to let the question hang and then answer it with another character's actions. Readers won't get bored that way because they'll still be engaged.
Kevin wrote: "Hello dear authors. This is more a seeking advice post than feedback, as I'm sure a few of you can point me in the right direction.Working with my editor, she pointed out that I often would give ..."
As for physical descriptions, weed them in a little at a time, but again, give the reader reign with imagination. It's funner that way.
Thanks Carla. I like what you said, especially 'or for you, the author, to let the question hang and then answer it with another character's actions.'The said-avoidance reasoning is probably very accurate. Hear me contemplate out loud.
As with most advice, it's sinking in the more times I reread it.
Hi Kevin,
I have always had a similar problem, and I get told that my characters are always busying about doing something as they're talking. I do this because partly that's what normal people do when they're having a discussion/argument but also so the page doesn't end up looking like a movie script.
As Carla said above, you need to balance them out and use it sparingly, as if a reader is having everything dictated to them, what do they need to use their imaginations for? Which is, after all, the point. Try to balance a character's response by using descriptions of their body language, or show it through dialogue - but don't do both in the same sentence.
p.s. My biggest problems are 'scowl' and 'frown'....I hate using them, but sometimes there's no other choice.
All the best!
I have always had a similar problem, and I get told that my characters are always busying about doing something as they're talking. I do this because partly that's what normal people do when they're having a discussion/argument but also so the page doesn't end up looking like a movie script.
As Carla said above, you need to balance them out and use it sparingly, as if a reader is having everything dictated to them, what do they need to use their imaginations for? Which is, after all, the point. Try to balance a character's response by using descriptions of their body language, or show it through dialogue - but don't do both in the same sentence.
p.s. My biggest problems are 'scowl' and 'frown'....I hate using them, but sometimes there's no other choice.
All the best!
Sometimes, I describe feelings instead of their facial or bodily expressions to show the reader how the character is feeling and they can fill in what the character would be doing or look like in that particular situation.For example:
Her forehead wrinkled with confusion.
Instead:
Her face exposed her feelings of confusion mixed with fustration at his lack of understanding.
I dont know if this helps, but maybe it will be useful in the future.
Best of luck!
Thanks guys. Darren, ironically I heard the word 'scowled' in a book reading yesterday. And 'scoffed' as well, so I wrote them both down.
I like your point 'Try to balance a character's response by using descriptions of their body language, or show it through dialogue - but don't do both in the same sentence.' I think that will be my barometer.
Hannah, thanks for your notes but with my first person novel, your 'Her forehead wrinkled with confusion' is all I can use, but cut down. My editor is very particular about my main character not describing other people's feelings. Only their actions. So it would be 'Her forehead wrinkled'.
I think I'll be searching for all my grins, smiles and beams and really deciding on whether they need to be there. Plus I like Carla's suggestion of letting a moment pass before there's a reaction from another character.
Jaq wrote: "Carla wrote: "Never underestimate the intelligence of your reader. You should hang at the locally-owned gas station one evening. Crack open a bottle of Coke and just listen to the way men talk.."..."
Hey...I didn't say it wasn't a gamble. :D
I feel I must qualify something that was said.I didn't really say to simply let there be a dead space before having another character react or forward the action. I was meaning to imply (and apparently rather unsuccessfully), that sometimes it's more effective to a reader not to have everything spelled out for them, and simply let the next character's actions shed light on the first character's state-of-mind and the general situation. If the second character in a conversation doesn't make formal objection and simply moves on to another topic, then you can pretty much deduce that he had no problem with the previous statement that was made.
I've just made public the first chapter of my upcoming comedy novel, and I do this to great effect. You'll never seen one squinted, winced, furrowed or glinted in my work. But you'll find the action clips along and you'll be at the end of the chapter before you realise it, hooked. I let my readers fill in that junk, and I call it junk because it's clearly not necessary for your story's hook to gather the attention of a reader, or for the book to be a success. At least not for this genre. When I published The Gaslight Journal, I deliberately was writing in the style of Jane Austen, Hawthorne and Dickens, so of course I used more affective description. But that would kill this type of action-comedy before it even got started.
But you can decide for yourself:
http://nightreading.ning.com/profiles...
A long time ago in a Ford Galaxie far, far away (near Woodbridge, Virginia, as I recall), I found an unused copy of WordPerfect. Don't ask which version - I'm lucky to remember that thing I was going to talk about. Hmmm. Uh...hmmm.Oh, darn.
Anyway, I remember using a word frequency report in WP. You can still buy these useful little applications for MS Word. If the report shows the word "Beamed" used fifteen times, you got some wordsmiting in your future. (No, it's not a typo. Wordsmiting is wordsmithing with the emphasis on the DEL key.)
I sure wish I had me one of them fancy word frequency reports nowadays. Too bad I'm fatally frugal.
Jon wrote: "A long time ago in a Ford Galaxie far, far away (near Woodbridge, Virginia, as I recall), I found an unused copy of WordPerfect. Don't ask which version - I'm lucky to remember that thing I was go..."http://www.openoffice.org
Free, and does everything Word does.
There are quite a few free word frequency counters online. Not quite as easy to use as one that runs on your existing word processor, but perhaps useful enough.http://www.csgnetwork.com/documentana...
http://www.writewords.org.uk/word_cou...
And my favorite of the ones I just found is this one:
http://darylkinsman.ca/tools/wordfreq...
It has various options for output, and will allow you to exclude small words (such as "the", "I", etc.)
Daryl Kinsman's tool looked as though it was more limited than it actually was, but after feeding it a 53K-word doc I was impressed with its simplicity, speed, and usefulness. The same test crashed WriteWords twice in a row, earning the program my official rating as "EVIL".The only drawback I see in all three programs is their client-server architecture, requiring you to be actively connected to the Internet in order to use them. Forgive my apparent paranoia about transmitting my books across an unencrypted link, but my enemies are clever and well-funded, and their moral anchors are so mired in the swamp waters of easy money that intercepting my books and publishing them under their own names poses a blatant threat to my economic well-being and raises the danger of diminishing my own self-esteem. I won't mention any names (you know who you are), but I'm sure readers will recognize my original titles, most of which were not substantially changed by the offending "authors". Books such as "A Tail of Two Townships", "The Fuchsia Letter", "The Andromeda Stuff", and "On the Beach Blanket".
Oh, now I'm all weepy.
Carla wrote: "Jon wrote: "A long time ago in a Ford Galaxie far, far away (near Woodbridge, Virginia, as I recall), I found an unused copy of WordPerfect. Don't ask which version - I'm lucky to remember that th..."I use Word Perfect to write first drafts. I learned on WP, and Word just doesn't do it for me. Since my editor works in Word, I will do a conversion, and polish with Word. Works for me. What I find fascinating is, WP will open pretty much anything but Word won't
WordPerfect? Wow, I'm old enough to remember when SSI/WordPerfect was the standard... haven't thought about them since Corel picked it up in 1996. It still works? Amazing.
Andrew wrote: "WordPerfect? Wow, I'm old enough to remember when SSI/WordPerfect was the standard... haven't thought about them since Corel picked it up in 1996. It still works? Amazing."Coot.
I remember running WordPerfect (and it did run perfectly) on a 5 1/4 floppy, saving my files to another 5 1/4 floppy as the PC didn't have a hard disk. And it had 1Mb of RAM. Those were the days when programmers knew about clean coding.
The days when HTML coding was universally known.
Jay, I had one of those. Then I got an Osborne with both floppies and a green monitor in one suitcase, only 30lbs! I don't know how clean the code was though, nothing printed right until WYSIWYG. (That's a deceptively old picture unless you were 3 when you had floppies :)
Andrew, do you remember when the world shook? It was the starter's pistol for the New Age, signaling a change after which nothing would ever be the same. I speak of a New Truth, a mighty Voice announcing the arrival of the one we had long awaited even without knowing that such a void needed filling. By now you must have guessed the answer. Yes, I mean that great day when the Wynn Dixie started carrying floppy disks.
Andrew wrote: "Jay, I had one of those. ... (That's a deceptively old picture unless you were 3 when you had floppies :) "
You flatterer Andrew! Or do you think I'm deliberately trying to mislead? The photo is a couple of years old, but it's actually the most recent I have just of me. Nothing's changed bar a couple of extra pounds on the hips, and maybe an extra inch or two on the hair. I try to be the person taking the photos, but my sister caught me unawares that day.
If you're wondering, I'm 54. The world of technology has changed must faster than most people realise. It was only 20 years ago that it was common to have a PC with no hard drive. It was in 1991 that my employer bought me a brand new PC. It had a 40Mb hard drive and 2Mb RAM. I boasted about it for weeks!
I started my computer experience on a Dekwriter and a Honeywell mainframe. Batched the files all the way across campus to the printer room, ran over there, waited in line for my scroll of white-and-green striped paper, which as often as not printed out the words "Fatal Error" and nothing else...Then there was the day I accidentally changed the font color on the new CRT to the same orange as the background...
K.A. wrote: "Then there was the day I accidentally changed the font color on the new CRT to the same orange as the background... "I actually penalized a 'player' on our system once, when he hadn't realised he'd set text and background colour the same - it took me 6 hours to respond to his call for help...
Wow. Didn't take long for us old people to wander off-topic.
One of the advantages of getting older is you can get away with more ;)Back on topic, I've had it pointed out that the whole a passage I had up for review on YouWriteOn only used 'said' once. The advice was strip out the other words (a huge variety, all totally unnecessary) and replace with 'said'. I did, and I had to agree - and the work is much better for it.
I use "glanced" too much. You'd think my characters' eyes are rolling around in their heads at that rate.
We're all in good company. I'm in the middle of Steve Berry's new book, The Columbus Affair. I'm already sick of his use of the device "he remembered that...". The author then fills in some trivial detail from the past. He's too lazy to do a single backflash to cover them all. (See Review, click here. My transgression is putting three things in a row to save myself the torture of making details interesting. "He said Brin, Zuckerberg, and Gates all ran bigger companies at my age."
We naturally speed read certain words and phrases the same way we see punctuation. GLANCE and SAID are words the eye comprehends and skips over quickly. Don't worry about those.
Thank God for this thread. I thought it was just me.
Use of the word said is only an author concern, NOT a reader concern. Glanced, after one per page, I'd start to notice but said is such a common convention that readers will fly right past it.And as Jay discovered, overuse of it means that you're relying too much on verbs because you know how many times you've repeated the word. By the time you're scanning for their use, you should be in reader mode, skimming over them.
Ick. Now I've thought about the word "glanced" so much that it's starting to sound funny, like a lanced gland or something. I may never use it again...
Does anyone else get sudden word blindness, as in simple words that have been fine all you life suddenly look wrong? I had it recently with 'does'. How can 'duzz' be spelled 'does'? So funny afterwards, so annoying at the time.
Carla wrote: "I feel I must qualify something that was said.I didn't really say to simply let there be a dead space before having another character react or forward the action. I was meaning to imply (and app..."
Carla, do you have a new link for your story. The link you gave doesn't work.
Jay wrote: "One of the advantages of getting older is you can get away with more ;)Back on topic, I've had it pointed out that the whole a passage I had up for review on YouWriteOn only used 'said' once. The..."
I've learnt the same lesson. My editor pointed it out and after I changed most of my alternatives for 'said' I found I hardly noticed the word.
http://ajbarnett.hubpages.com/hub/400...
PS. Does anyone know how to change the setting on this site for UK/Aus/Canadian English. I'm sick of squiggly lines under perfectly spelt words like spelt, learnt, realise, etc
Jay wrote: "Does anyone else get sudden word blindness, as in simple words that have been fine all you life suddenly look wrong? I had it recently with 'does'. How can 'duzz' be spelled 'does'? So funny afterw..."It happens to all of us. I think we're so used to just writing or typing those words that we don't think twice about the order of the letters, until we actually think about it.
Kevin wrote: "Carla wrote: "I feel I must qualify something that was said.I didn't really say to simply let there be a dead space before having another character react or forward the action. I was meaning to ..."
Looks like the site's down for maintenance. Srry bout that, but keep checking. And I don't have an updated version posted anywhere else. Guess I should at least put it on my blog so I can accept comments.
Kevin wrote: Back on topic, I've had it pointed out that the whole a passage I had up for review on YouWriteOn only used 'sai..."Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?
Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great deal by both reviewing and being reviewed. For each piece you review (up to 7,000 words) you get a credit which you allocate against your own work. There are some very helpful reviewers, there are some awful ones. It's bound to happen on a site where anyone, of any level of ability, can join and give it a try. The good ones are worth their weight in gold and have taught me so much. Even the bad ones have forced me to think about why their review is so unhelpful, which helps me to be a better reviewer and a better writer. I'm now also in contact with some lovely people I met on the site via the review process, people whose opinions and advice I value highly.
The down side - there's some cyber-bullying going on, so you need a thick skin, the willpower to ignore some of what goes on, or you just avoid the message boards. The MBs do get some thought provoking debates on though. The other downer is the fanatics who will do anything to get their work to the top of the chart and use any dirty trick to keep yours off it. The 'prize' for the top 10 each month is a professional review. I don't know why they get so uptight about that, though - I've seen one pro crit described as a 'wet lettuce', and virtually no-one ends up with a publishing deal out of it.
Basically, my advice would be give it a go and see what you think. 'All' it will cost you is time. Time is the most precious commodity to me, so I ration it out, using YWO as and when I feel the need.
Jay wrote: "Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great deal by both reviewing and being reviewed. For each piece you re..."
That's been my experience as well, and sounds a lot like Authonomy...right down to spamming your way to the editor's desk. Unfortunately, both sites started well in theory, but are severely flawed in their execution, and so far, no one's been able to fix the weaknesses in either system
Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great deal by both reviewing and being reviewed. For each ..."
I still think it's worth it for the strengths. The weaknesses can be borne if the payoff is one of those golden reviews that suddenly brings shining clarity.
Jay wrote: "Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great deal by both reviewing and being revie..."
Eh; maybe.
In order to get to one of those "golden moments", you have to wade through a lot of shite. It's my vehement opinion that time could be put to better use in a regular critique group, instead of chasing a publisher's moving slush pile. I pretty much learned how to write from the ground up in one of those groups. After ten years of getting to know those folks and their writing styles, you build an inherent trust. I learned not only from their advice, but also from the quid pro quo of no-holds-barred critiquing I did on their stories. Being subjected to that day and night for ten years meant I got those golden moments of clarity nearly every day, instead of sporadically on a publisher-backed slush pile. And I never had to question the motive of the reviewer, no matter how sincere their review.
Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great deal by both reviewing and..."
I'd be very interested if you could recommend another group. I'm such a newbie to writing that YWO was my very first contact with people who would give regular critiques of what I was working on. I have learned a great deal from them, but I do feel I'm ready to move onto a more consistently honest group.
Jay wrote: "Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great deal by both..."
The one I belonged to was a usenet group, but it no longer exists, so critique.org has been the next best thing.
And I ALWAYS suggest to new writers that if they have aspirations of writing the great American novel, they first learn to write short-stories. The best exercise I ever did was when my Australian friend made me stop work on my first novel and write a 1500-word short-story. Once I finished it, he made me cut it by half. Nearly killed me, but it had the desired effect: it made me painfully aware of how much over-description, adverbs, adjectives and flowery narrative I had used, instead of simply telling the story. As a new writer, I was convinced my "tricks" would get me by. They fooled no one.
That one exercise changed my life. I wish more writers would force themselves through this painful exercise and not be in a hurry to self-publish; to learn the craft thoroughly. It will make the novel better in the long run, as well as teach you to develop "your" voice with as few words as possible. You begin to treat words with the respect they deserve, searching for that premium verb instead of relying on lazy adverbs.
As a result of perfecting the short-story, and having to re-think my own word choices, I no longer need to rely on someone else's opinion for edits. I know what belongs, and what can be done without. Last year I published five comedic short-stories in four different national magazines; the year before I published one of my Victorian tales with the prestigious Copperfield Review, just two months after finally feeling I was ready to pursue writing full-time.
It's well worth the torture.
Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Carla wrote: "Jay wrote: "Andrew wrote: Is YouWriteOn worthwhile? Or another pay-to-subnmit contest hub?"Plus points - it's free and you get to learn a great ..."
Thanks for that insight, Carla. I thought I was 'giving in' when I made the decision earlier this week to stop work on the novel and do some more short story writing. I decided if things weren't feeling right I shouldn't write, so I'd hold fire while the subconscious mulled things over.
Not that shorts are an easy option, as you point out. Every word having to earn its place really concentrates the mind. I'm full of admiration for you, perfecting your stories and getting them published. I'll keep hoping that the practice rubs off onto my longer work. And after the torture I have a handy anaesthetic by the name of alcohol.
ALL: Wow, you two are passionate about this topic. Lots of words spilling out. Let me splash my can of gasoline on the fire:#1 - Best critique group out there is Francis Ford Coppola's system: ZOETROPE.COM. Cyberbullying is checked. The quality of critiques are always going to be varied, but there are a lot of MFAs at Zoe. And after your first 5 reviews, you can pick who you review. Since it's a reciprocal system, it works quite nicely. I highly recommend it. They have forums for short stories, screenplays, novellas, photography, etc. The prize is getting your short story in the Zoetrope magazine. The downside is that the mag is literary. I've been learning there for a few years and made good friends.
2) There is a promising back-to-basics series underway about the craft of writing at Seeley James: On Writing. Subscribe, it's good stuff.
3) Carla is right on track, short stories are the best way to hone the craft. Just don't get caught up in them. There's NO money in it. I've won prizes, been published, spent hours... net loss over the years and -- You've never seen my work.
4) Now that you mention it, I think I'll have a glass of Palmaz Cabernet 2007. Here's to you!
Andrew wrote: "ALL: Wow, you two are passionate about this topic. Lots of words spilling out. Let me splash my can of gasoline on the fire:#1 - Best critique group out there is Francis Ford Coppola's system: ZO..."
Zoetrope has been around nearly since I first joined my writing group back in 2001. It's by no means "the best", which is subjective anyway, but many friends over the years have had so-so experiences with it. It's no better than youwriteon or Authonomy, but if Andrew's had good experience, then that's great for him. I like critique.org because it's conducted by e-mail and doesn't dangle some carrot in front of you to entice you to participate. You critique, and offer stories to get critiqued in return. Period.
And with experience, I've learned that the only thing an MFA entitles you to is bragging rights at a party--much like my MENSA membership. It can only teach you nuts and bolts, grammar and spelling, but you learn just as much by finding a high quality critique group and getting both feet in, giving and receiving. You learn by reading great books on writing. All these things teach you. I've learned not to give a comment by an MFA any more weight than anyone else because they can be just as wrong, just as remiss of what you're trying to accomplish as anyone else.
I've done quite well with my published short-stories, because they prepare you to do non-fiction, which is where the real money is.
Carla wrote: but if Andrew's had good experience, then that's great for him. Yes, Carla, it was great for me! I used to be introverted but now, thanks to Zoe, I'm full of myself :)
I completely agree with you on the MFA meaning little. They tend to critique like the professors they just escaped from. And they stick to the "rules" far too much. But boy can they use a comma.
Hey, one thing you mentioned, "You learn by reading great books on writing." Which are your top 3 favorites?
For me: Writers Journey (structure); Techniques of the $Selling Writer (dated, but great examples); and Self-Editing for Fiction Writers (nuts & bolts).
Andrew wrote: "Hey, one thing you mentioned, "You learn by reading great books on writing." Which are your top 3 favorites?"Good question. I love the following, and since I'm pretty non-traditional, it will be no surprise that my favourites and most effective are also non-traditional:
1. "The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes" by Jack Bickham. The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes Absolutely fanTAStic book. It's by no means a comprehensive course on how to write a book, but man, does the guy hit the high points and put them into a very succinct summation.
2. "The Comic Toolbox: How to Be Funny Even If You're Not" The Comic Toolbox: How to Be Funny Even If You're Not by my friend John Vorhaus (who also penned Creativity Rules, another great one). Don't let the title fool you; it's not just for comedians. While it gives you some practical ways to think about punching up your MS once you've got it in editorial condition, his step-by-step points on the arc of a story works perfectly for a dramatic work (save the ending, which, traditionally in a comedy is a happy one).
3. While I like the writing portion of Stephen King's "On Writing" for its practical advice, I like another by a friend, "A Newbie's Guide to Publishing" by Joe Konrath. The Newbie's Guide to Publishing Originally begun as a series of blog postings once he landed his six-figure advance with Hyperion back in 2002 (I designed his first web-site once that happened), he began blogging about his experiences. It turned out to be so popular with so many followers, that he turned them into a book. If you write something other than crime/police procedurals, the parts about guns and ammo may not appeal to you. ;) But the rest is golden advice; practical nuts and bolts, like how many editorial passes you should make and what you should be looking for; the process by which a DTB author gains an agent and publisher, and how to structure/pace a story and flesh out your characters. He's since expanded this topic by recently publishing one on publishing in the eBook industry.
And I've put them in the order of my preferences.
Wow, treasure. In a strange twist: I have "Comic Toolbox" on my coffee table to be read when I finish Sanford's Stolen Prey. I've ordered the other two this evening. Thanks!
Andrew wrote: "Wow, treasure. In a strange twist: I have "Comic Toolbox" on my coffee table to be read when I finish Sanford's Stolen Prey. I've ordered the other two this evening. Thanks!"Yer welcome.
As an aside allowing me to brag a bit, I sent my short pitch (25 words) to John Vorhaus for A Most Devout Coward, since the book came out of an exercise I did from Creativity Rules, and he said he laughed out loud twice. So when I brashly asked if he would write the forward, he quickly agreed. I think I can also wrangle a front cover blurb out of him, too.
I felt as if I'd met God. ;)
Thanks Andrew and Carla - I'll check those books out. I'm currently working through Gotham Writers' Workshop: Writing Fiction, which Tui Allen uses as her 'bible'. Boy would I be happy if I could write a book like Ripple!OK, let's get down to work...
THE Group for Authors!
Books mentioned in this topic
The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes (other topics)The Comic Toolbox: How to Be Funny Even If You're Not (other topics)
The Newbie's Guide to Publishing (other topics)
Working with my editor, she pointed out that I often would give away what a person was thinking while explaining their gestures - which was a big problem in a novel written in first person. I know that's obvious, but I just felt I was explaining what is normally taken for granted in non-verbal communication.
I've just finished reading my latest draft and found that everyone either smiles, grins or beams to one another, way too often.
How do you get around this? What other non verbal communication is acceptable in first person?
Sometimes they nod or shrug or shake their heads, but when approval is communicated, what else is there to do?
PS. The other over used phrase I'm finding is 'his musky odour (odor for US spelling)' so I'm looking for new ways to describe elements of the love interest beyond his physical features.