THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
LAND, AIR & SEA
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Weapons of WW2
I've fired both the Colt .45 and the Browning 9mm and the newer Glock and all are good in their own way but I tend to like the 9mm.
I had the 1911 in .45 and the Beretta 9mm, now I have the Sig Saur P220 in.45 (old model), and it has the stopping power I like, but the ejection port design provides much less recoil than a Colt allowing more more rapid sight realignment on target. recoil feels like a high grain load 9mm. Very accurate.
When I joined the Police after leaving the army I was issued with a six-shot Smith and Wesson which was a beautiful revolver but had obvious disadvantages with the number of rounds you had and then reloading. We were later issued with the 9mm Glock 17, lots more ammo, very easier to shoot, and very accurate, sort of fell in love with my Glock :)
My mail carrier delivered today --
Sunderland at War by Chaz Bowyer.It contains little text but many fine photos of Short Sunderland flying boats operating in all theaters during WW II. it's a nice addition to my collection on flying boats.
Glad you like the book MR9, a nice addition to your library indeed!
Manray9 wrote: "My mail carrier delivered today -- Sunderland at War by Chaz Bowyer.It contains little text but many fine photos of Short Sunderland flying b..."
Very cool! I have several of the "At War" books myself--they were some of my very first books on World War II.
Anyone read any of these seventies heavies?
Sherman: A History of the American Medium TankThe author - R.P. Hunnicutt - seems to have assembled a library worth of fire and steel...
Dimitri wrote: "Anyone read any of these seventies heavies?Sherman: A History of the American Medium TankThe author - [author:R.P...."
Not I.
After booting it around for the best part of two decades, I've finally cracked on with the quite marvellous
Me 262: Stormbird Rising. Apart from a wasted page of self serving garbage masquerading as an introduction by Adolf Galland, this is how all books about a single aircraft type should be -and I've only read the first chapter on design philosophy and p procedure. Chapters on the Jumo engine, flight testing and the civil engineering of production facilities before we even get to any operational discussions.
I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!"But ironically wouldn't suit a sharkmouth colourescheme... not that the Luftwaffe would have allowed it...
maybe, they had the various 'big teeth' on the front of various ground attack aircraft, the Afrika Korps Stuka with the snake/dragon along the fuselage was a model making favorite along with some of the Henscel tank killers. Jonny wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!"
But ironically wouldn't suit a sharkmouth colourescheme... not that the Luftwaffe would have..."
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!"I'm definitely with you there; one of the most beautiful aircraft that ever flew, for my money... I'm sure Colin will correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Johannes Steinhoff who said that flying the Me 262 was like being pushed through the sky by angels, or something like that?
Liam wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!"I'm definitely with you there; one of the most beautiful aircraft that ever flew, for my mon..."
Unfortunately in Steinhoff's case the same couldn't be said about taxying it. Although he doesn't bear it any ill will in his foreward.
Believe it was Galland's quote.Liam wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!"
I'm definitely with you there; one of the most beautiful aircraft that ever flew, for my mon..."
This gets "definitive" reviews on Amazon & modelling/vehicle afficiando sites:Armoured Trains: An Illustrated Encyclopedia 1825-2016
Armoured Trains by Paul MalmassariSynopsis:
Completely revised and expanded since its French publication, Armoured Trains: An Illustrated Encyclopedia 1825-2016 is the first English-language edition of the authoritative work on the subject.
Military forces around the world were quick to see the advantages of railways in warfare, whether for the rapid deployment of men or the movement of heavy equipment like artillery. From this realization, it was a short step to making the train a potent weapon in its own right--a mobile fort or a battleship on rails. Armed and armored, they became the first practical self-propelled war machines. As demonstrated in the American Civil War, these trains were able to make a significant contribution to battlefield success.
Thereafter, almost every belligerent nation with a railway system made some use of armored rolling stock, ranging from low-intensity colonial policing to the massive employment of armored trains during the Russian Civil War. Although they were somewhat eclipsed as frontline weapons by the development of the tank and other armored fighting vehicles, armored trains retained a role as late as the civil wars in the former republic of Yugoslavia.
This truly encyclopedic book covers, country by country, the range of fighting equipment that rode the rails over nearly two centuries. While this book outlines the place of armored trains in the evolution of warfare, it concentrates on details of their design through a vast array of photographs and the author's meticulous drawings.
Something a bit different, thanks for posting the details Dimitri.
Dimitri: I find armored trains an interesting subject. I have intended to pick up a copy of Steven Zaloga's New Vanguard 140: Armored Trains (New Vanguard), but have not done so yet.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've always liked the Me 262, its beautiful looking plane, the shark of the sky!"Make a Messerschmitt movie titled "Sharknado" & earn billions from careless theatregoers.
Not to insult anyone's intelligence, but it's a neat summary on the evolution of the British tanks in WWII (courtesy I.M.W.)
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/britai...
Centurions... must be a decent design, they're creating merry hell in 1973:
I threw a few proposals together at the producers and directors I often work with on TV shows and films. One was an idea for a feature film on JV-44 and JG-7/Kommando Nowotny using my book on that topic full of pilots' interviews, focusing upon the last months of the war, with special focus upon the actual actions of the specific pilots, to include the 2nd Fighters Revolt against Goering. Will keep you all updated.The Star of Africa film concept has traction, and we have more interest in that at present. We shall see what happens.
Good link Dimitri and in regards to the Centurions Jonny Australia was still using them during the Vietnam War.
In The Spy Who Loved: The Secrets and Lives of Christine Granville by Clare Mulley at pp 72-73, reference is made to "state-of-the-art Polish high-velocity rifle, designed to pierce the armour of a German tank". On invasion, the blueprints were destroyed, but a sawed off gun was smuggled out. The footnote states the Allies never used the gun, as reverse engineering was too time consuming, although Germans and Italians used captured guns.I know next to nothing about weapons, but this seemed a lost chance to me.
You might fund this article of interest Liz, its on the British 'Boys' anti-tank rifle:http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dail...
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You might fund this article of interest Liz, its on the British 'Boys' anti-tank rifle:http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dail..."
Thank you. That is interesting.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You might fund this article of interest Liz, its on the British 'Boys' anti-tank rifle:http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dail..."
The book I'm currently reading mentions the Boys anti-tank rifle as being issued to Marine Raiders prior to the invasion of Guadalcanal:
Bloody Ridge and Beyond: A World War II Marine's Memoir of Edson's Raiders in the Pacific
Marc wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You might fund this article of interest Liz, its on the British 'Boys' anti-tank rifle:http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dail..."
..."
I've read the USMC had a few Boys in the Pacific for limited use. They didn't catch on. John Frost in his A Drop Too Many: A Paratrooper at Arnhem stated that in the early days of the Parachute Battalions the Boys was their only anti-tank weapon. Imagine parachuting a weapons cache with rifles five feet, two inches in length, and weighing 35 lbs unloaded. The ammo was heavy too.
Manray9 wrote: "Marc wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You might fund this article of interest Liz, its on the British 'Boys' anti-tank rifle:http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dail......"
Reminds me of Harry Turtledove's "The War That Came Early" alternate history series. One of the characters used an anti-tank rifle as a sniper rifle. Always complained about the size and weight, but not the results.
I have jumped with the 23 lb M-60 machine gun (on top of the 75 lbs of other gear), so I can imagine jumping with larger weapons. Unlike the Germans and British, we strap our weapons to us, no need for canisters!
Liz wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You might fund this article of interest Liz, its on the British 'Boys' anti-tank rifle:http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/dail..."
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The Hour of the Donkey, an Anthony Price novel set in the 1940 Battle of France, includes an entertaining account of a novice firing a Boys rifle. I almost wonder if he'd seen it!
Restarting my reading of
Me 262: Stormbird Risingwith the chapter on 'RAF perceptions of the Me262' - covering the photo reconnaissance efforts relating to the 262 (with comment from the quote formidable Constance Babbington-Smith) and the impact of 262 strikes on RAF airfields (negligible; the Mk108 not being a cannon optimised for ground attack) and eyewitness accounts of countermeasures and air to air combat between 262's and Tempests. Great stuff!
Jonny wrote: "Restarting my reading of Me 262: Stormbird Risingwith the chapter on 'RAF perceptions of the Me262' - covering the photo reconnaissance..."
Its a fascinating subject indeed, glad you are enjoying the book Jonny.
You may also like our book, The Me-262 Stormbird, which is a history of the jet, but the primary content are the interviews with many of the jet pilots, and Allied pilots who fought each other. They offered their first person perspectives. I was grateful that Oblt Jorg Czypionka wrote a foreword, as a Me-262 night fighter pilot.
Just finished the chapter on 'The Combat Perspective - By Day' containing a number of interviews with Luftwaffe pilots and test pilots. Apart from wasting a couple of pages on more self-serving garbage from the arch buls*****r Galland (apparently an aircraft which requires a major overhaul after twelve hours of flight is quite normal?) oh, and "I am of the opinion that with only 300 Messerschmitt Me262 jet fighters we could have on any day shot down a minimum of 200 bombers." Presumably the given day being a cold day in Hell, given that I'm fairly certain his own squadron of experts never managed a proportional kill ratio, and I'd love to know where he was going to find fuel, crews and reliable airframes.However the bit that really had me laughing into my pint was this one from 262 pilot Hadi Weiss (3.JG7), trying to justify an attack on an unidentified flying boat:
" That the attack on this aircraft was a bit unfair we only realised later in 1945. I mean, we did not necessarily have to do to the Americans what they did to us - that is shoot at us while we were hanging on the ends of our parachutes."
Yes right. The Luftwaffe was manned solely by solid, upright knights of the sky. My arse. Still, chapter on the nightfighter experience next, something that doesn't crop up too often.
Me 262: Stormbird Rising
Actually, 8th AF Commander Doolittle ( who disagreed with the policy) admitted, as did Robin Olds and many others, that there was a quiet acceptance of strafing pilots seen to bale out of jets. Yes, it was illegal under Geneva 1929, and it was not a standard practice. However, any US fighter pilot who did so would not be held accountable to his superiors.The reason was that it was mistakenly believed that jets pilots (whether in Aarados or 262's) must have been highly trained and valuable pilots. That was far from the case, although some of the most experienced pilots were selected to fly and command various Staffel and Gurppe units.
One fact that is irrefutable, is that Galland (and I knew him very well) firmly believed in his defense of the 262 as the method to change the tide in the air war. He based this upon his tenure as General der Jagdflieger, when he coordinated the defenses of the Ruhr, with Black Thursday proving his point of overlapping, concentrated attacks halting daylight bombing for a while.
I disagreed with him simply based upon logistics and comparative production capabilities in both aircraft and pilots. He conceded that if strategic and tactical bombing did choke the pipeline on all required materials, but he still believed that he could altered the course of the air war.
The one saving grace he did concede was that it was better for the world that Hitler was defeated, following the knowledge he gathered in 1944, from many sources, but in particular from Hannes Trautloft in Nov 1944 regarding Buchenwald.
Overall, in fact the Luftwaffe pilots were by in large very upstanding in their conduct of the war, and they mirrored their actions along the lines of the WW I fliers, and admired their RAF counterparts. This was why not a single Luftwaffe officer was ever charged, indicted, let alone convicted of any war crimes related to the air war.
I have dozens of documented acts of chivalry performed by Germans to protect Allied airmen they shot down, corroborated by the Allied pilots themselves. The Luftwaffe, like the U-Boat service lived by a code, sometimes violated, but not tolerated.
However, individual events did happen, in particular on the Eastern Front, and Walter Krupinski was a clear example of one pilot who was chivalrous in his actions throughout the war, but had a breaking point at one time, and after he shot down the enemy, tried to strafe him as payback, and failed.
He was reprimanded by his Gruppenkommandeur (and great friend) Johannes Steinhoff, and his Geschwaderkommodore, Dietrich Hrabak for his attempt to retaliate against a Sovier Yak pilot who did strafe a 190 pilot under his chute.
Both services fell victim to the post war propaganda where rumor was held to be truth, when in fact diligent research proves otherwise. Only the USSR and Japan openly accepted strafing parachuting airmen and the US Fighter Command had turned a blind eye to this activity; nothing to be entered into AAR's upon mission completion. The British RAF pilots stayed clean and chivalrous. However, the Poles on the other hand, became quite a problem on this issue, and long before the jets ever entered service.
This is also the reason why so many former WW II German aces became NATO commanders after the war; their record was clean, such as Rall, Steinhoff, Trautloft, Hrabak, etc. When Goering brought up the idea of strafing the enemy in parachutes as a suggestion in passing, Galland stated, in front of 7 people I interviewed, that he would court martial any of his pilots who did such a thing, and Goering laughed it off and dropped the subject.
From August to December 1944, fighter ace and Knight's Cross recipient Klaus Bretschneider was serving under Oberst Walther Dahl (who I interviewed) in JG-300, the "Rammjaeger", and the successor to Hajo Hermann's JG-300 "Wilde Sau." Hajo had personally recruited Bretschneider into the Wild Boar, and said that he was very aggressive.
Bretschneider's entire family had perished in a bombing raid, and he was assumed to be mentally strained. On 17 Dec, 1944 he shot down a B-24, his 34th and last victory, and Dahl and a few other pilots saw Bretschneider strafing the crew under parachutes after he destroyed their B-24.
He was called off by radio before he did any more damage, and it was not believed that he managed to kill anyone, but he tried. He was identified as he was flying his FW-190A8 at that time marked "Red 1".
On the ground his squadron leader wrote him up on charges for the act, and the Geschwaderkommodore Dahl grounded him, and sent the paperwork up the chain of command. Goering found out and reversed the grounding order.
Trautloft received the report as Inspector of Day Fighters, gave his recommendation and it went to Galland for court-martial. Galland's response was to hold a Luftwaffe trial within two weeks, but before that could happen Bretschneider was KIA by a Mustang on 24 Dec.
Klaus Bretschneider shot down 34 enemy aircraft, 14 of them at night in the FW-190 as a single seat 'Wild Sau). Included in his 20 day-victories were 17 four-engine heavy bombers.
I write all this because the German fighter pilots in their vast majority fought as clean a war as they could, and they were held to a very high standard. My books I wrote based upon the interviews with the pilots from both sides of the war show that, especially The Star if Africa, where this very situation existed with Australian ace Clive Caldwell after his strafing of Germans was witnessed by the guys I interviewed.
I also had two Allied Commonwelath pilots who knew Caldwell and confirmed the stories, and corroborated the discussions the Germans had about his activities.
Interesting post Colin but in defence of Clive Caldwell I can only say that it's alleged that he retaliated for the cold blooded shooting of one of his friends hanging in his parachute by a German pilot.
Caldwell used that as his reason, yet it was never corroborated. May be true, but of the three units operating in the area, all of JG-27, parts of JG-53 and JG-51 (temporary) I could not find any confirmation through research or interviews. It may have happened, and it could have been an accident, or it may have never happened, we may never know. What did occur was that of all the 12 JG-27 pilots who witnessed Caldwell kill one of their men in a parachute, and who I interviewed who were there (Emil Clade, Friedrich Korner, Ludwig Franzisket, Werner Schroer, Gustav Roedel), they discussed this with Edu Neuman and Bernhard Woldenga, as well as Rommel when he visited, and with Galland during his visit. This is all in my book The Star of Africa.It was decided that there was to be no similar retaliation on Galland's order, and all but one of those men agreed. This was one of the reasons Goering brought it up to Galland later in Berlin, and Galland refused.
Don't get me wrong Colin; I wasn't suggesting that the Luftwaffe was staffed by murderers, by any stretch of the imagination. To put it in context, the tale recounted by Weiss had he and his wingman attacking a flying boat (presumably a Sunderland, unless anyone else knows of Allied 4 engine flying boats operating in the northern German area) on the surface while engaged in SAR.My beef with Galland is with his Nazi credentials - once again, the myth of the so-called "Good German" (especially at the levels at which he moved), and the apparent glee that he throws about random hundreds of 262's saving the day for the Third Reich. For the record, supply or training or most especially engineering issues aside, I couldn't say that they'd have made any difference, unless you wanted the Iron Curtain falling further West.
I'd have to say that the appointment of the individuals you mention rose in NATO has more to do with Realpolitik than any so called "clean sheets" - the threat of the Soviet Air Force across the Inner German Border, I suspect, than an allegedly "clean" record (and I'm minded to think that the de-Nazification process was deeply flawed in practice if not theory).
As to your comment concerning the Poles - perhaps they were merely reacting to the genocide the Germans were inflicting on their civilians in the occupied territories? Similarly, this isn't the first time that Rick has mentioned the alleged circumstances behind Clive Caldwell's actions.
Jonny wrote: "Don't get me wrong Colin; I wasn't suggesting that the Luftwaffe was staffed by murderers, by any stretch of the imagination. To put it in context, the tale recounted by Weiss had he and his wingma..."Jonny, it's interesting you bring up Galland's quote about hundreds of Me 262 jets saving the day for Germany. I ran across the same quote over the weekend in a different book,
German Jet Aces of World War 2and there was this little extra bit which you definitely hit upon:
"As a negative consequence, the war would have been prolonged, and the Russians allowed more time to conquer further German territory. So let us now be satisfied with Hitler's mistakes towards the legendary Messerschmitt Me 262."
you make good points, and having first hand experience as a soldier and later a Marine in very intense situations, I know full well that in the heat of battle men can do things that they would normally never even consider.Galland and the others come up cleaner than most, and this was also proofed by my interview with Karl Wolff, who knew ALL the details of Himmler and Goering both tapping Galland's phones, as both wanted him removed, but each for very different reasons. Ironically, Himmler and Goering played a game of cat and mouse tapping each others' phones as well, as they hated each other.
Goering comes out just as bad as Himmler in my opinion for his heavy handed efforts to do many things that violated logic and international law. He deserved the rope at the end of the trials, but as you know he cheated the hangman.
I know for a fact that the German pilots to a man, in varying degrees, had different attitudes when it came to Western Allied versus Soviet opponents, they even admitted it. They all considered the war in the west as a sad reality, fighting against like minded, like educated civilized men, but the war in the east was a grim and necessary reality, a true struggle of national survival, hence the intensity on both sides.
I cannot fault the Poles or the Czechs in the RAF for their fierce bravery and determination. My late friend and ace Francis Gabreski said; "There were no other men on planet earth as determined to kill a German at every chance than the Poles. They knew it was national survival, no quarter asked or given."
I'm afraid you've not convinced Colin -I wouldn't trust my height if it had been told me by Karl Wolff. Aside from the degree of knowledge it's not unreasonable to assume Galland had about the nastier practices of the Third Reich, just having Goering and Himmler disliking him isn't enough to exonerate. Quite honestly, it's my opinion he'd have been far happier had the Third Reich won. In the same vein as Rommel, I see him as a fervent Nazi supporter - right up till the point the top echelon won't play his game anymore.As for clean and chivalrous - not after 1917. Not on any side.
Galland, Roedel, Neumann, Steinhoff, Luetzow, and the rest of the anti-Goering conspirators were virtually demoralized, once Trautloft confirmed in person their suspicions about the camps after his Buchenwald experience. Roedel and Neumann had discussed Marseille's revelations after he returned from his month long sabbatical and the Berlin visit. According to Roedel, "It all made sense then."I spent many days at a time, for years with many of these men, as a house guest, and knew their families. I came to know many of them very well. I know they loved their country, but there was a reason why they never joined the NSDAP. The were patriotic although conflicted. A few exceptions existed, and they were disturbing creatures.
I will never fault a man for fighting for his country, only his actions while in uniform. I remember when Reagan sent us places, it was not like we had an option. But we did have choices.
Man not the uniform, as my granda used to say?
"We salute the rank, not the man"Should we blame the uniform, not the person ?
Its always the man. That's the basis of the Nuremberg Trials, isn't it? I think I was trying to get at the degree of moral cowardice? It's kinda back to the discussion on the Holocaust thread about how much was known and the degree of guilt - hence the de-nazification comment. Aside from the question of how far the Russians would have got, it's also a case of prolonging Nazi rule - and I can't think of any justification for that.
Many Germans did cower, out of fear of reprisal if they knew anything, although there were a few notable exceptions. Even those who did not know of the murders still knew that they were living in a nation built upon the backs of the unwilling and repressed. Go along to get along.
This afternoon I will start on Brian Lavery's --
The Last Big Gun: At War & at Sea with HMS Belfast.HMS BELFAST was a TOWN-class light cruiser of the Royal Navy. The TOWN-class production line was ten ships. Refinements within the class resulted in production of three sub-classes, the last being the two ships designated the EDINBURGH-class. BELFAST was the second to the last built. She was constructed in Belfast at the Harland & Wolff yard. HMS BELFAST was much more successful than another Harland & Wolff vessel -- RMS TITANIC. Four of the TOWN-class cruisers went down with colors flying during WW II, but BELFAST floats today as a museum ship in London.
That should be very interesting book MR9, I hope you enjoy it.
Colin wrote: "Many Germans did cower, out of fear of reprisal if they knew anything, although there were a few notable exceptions. Even those who did not know of the murders still knew that they were living in a..."I'd agree, were we discussing Herr Schmidt from Dusseldorf, but we're not, were talking about the General der Jagdflieger and his cronies. So more like go along to get way ahead, and keep your snout in the trough. More like say nothing and keep your lovely lifestyle.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Last Great Victory: The End of World War II, July/August 1945 (other topics)The Last Great Victory: The End of World War II, July/August 1945 (other topics)
The E-Boat Threat (other topics)
A Town Like Alice (other topics)
The E-Boat Threat (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Stanley Weintraub (other topics)Nevil Shute (other topics)
Andrew Biggio (other topics)
Alistair MacLean (other topics)
Clare Mulley (other topics)
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In general, it is my understanding that the 'New' 9mm is quite adequate to the occasion. Less chance of jamming, equivalent stopping power and better accuracy and range. It also has the advantage of more bullets. Sometimes that makes a big difference.