War and Peace - Best Translations - Background & Resources - Schedule

[D. A.]

So...I'm giving it a go and am started the discussion for War and Peace. For those of you who are participating, please let us know which edition you are reading as there are many with varied translations.

I'm reading a version that was on the Kindle, but is no longer available.

Unfortunately there isn't a table of contents, but I will try to keep track as best I can for benchmarks for discussion.

[D. A.]

Let's start our discussion with thoughts and/or questions on Book 1.

[Amalie]

D. A. wrote: "Let's start our discussion with thoughts and/or questions on Book 1."

I hope this means you will lead the discussions :) I just opened a new folder and you can open the threads. I open the threads for Anna Karenina one a week means one volume gets 7 days and then we move on to the next although other are still open for the discussions.

D. A. use this thread for the groups traditional talks at the beginning of each novel regarding Translations searches, Background & Resources and the schedule etc. Make sure the spoilers are warned.

Here's an idea for the threads. This is what I decided on earlier.

Book One: (1805 - chapters 28)- May 10 to 17
Book Two: (1805 - chapters 21)
Book Three: (1805 - chapters 19)
Book Four: (1806 - chapters 16)
Book Five: (1806-07 - chapters 22)
Book Six: (1808-10 - chapters 26)
Book Seven: (1810-11 - chapters 18)
Book Eight: (1811-12 - chapters 22)
Book Nine: (1812 - chapters 23)
Book Ten: (1812 - chapters 39)
Book Eleven: (1812 - chapters 34)
Book Twelve: 1812 - chapters 16
Book Thirteen: 1812 - chapters 19
Book Fourteen: 1812 - chapters 19
Book Fifteen: 1812-13 - chapters 20
First Epilogue: 1813-20 - chapters 16
Second Epilogue: 1813-20 - chapters 12

If you are not planning to lead the discussions let me know so I can ask someone else.

[[deleted user]]

Great! Though, I have to wait till I finish Anna Karenina, which will take this month but I'll join afterwards.

P.S. Thanks for taking a huge responsibility D. A.!

[[deleted user]]

Here are some info to keep it going. A complete list of characters from Wikipedia: ****spoiler alert*** The character list includes spoilers!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...

Here's the character tree, once again includes spoilers*****: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia...

Russian history in "War and Peace"
http://russiapedia.rt.com/russian-his...

Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace - Is it historically accurate? http://www.generationaldynamics.com/c...

http://www.pbs.org/empires/napoleon/n...

[toria (vikz writes)]

Sounds great, looking forward to reading along with you

[[deleted user]]

I once started to read Louise & Aylmer Maude translation though I didn't finish it, but I would recommend it! It seemed good. But I recently bought the P/V translation which is really good it seems and there are some great reviews of it at Amazons. And I didn't notice it earlier it's very recent. Mine says 2011.

[Soad]

as soon as i finish Anna Karenina but i think im going to stay a while on War and Peace since it is so long.

[Amalie]

Apollo's Crow wrote: "How do these discussions work, generally? Is there some kind of reading schedule, to keep everyone on the same page (so to speak)? ..."

We use the same pattern for all the readings here. (Read message 3) If you want to get a better idea, check Anna Karenina readings.

[D. A.]

Amalie wrote: "D. A. wrote: "Let's start our discussion with thoughts and/or questions on Book 1."

I hope this means you will lead the discussions :) I just opened a new folder and you can open the threads. I op..."

Thank you so much Amalie!!! I will look for the folder and truly appreciate you sharing the patterns. This makes leading the discussions much easier. Do you have any other tips for leading discussions as I want to keep discussions as close to the format the group is used to following?

Thanks Again!

[D. A.]

Shanez wrote: "I once started to read Louise & Aylmer Maude translation though I didn't finish it, but I would recommend it! It seemed good. But I recently bought the P/V translation which is really good it seem..."

I was looking forward to reading the P/V translation and found that I missed much of the content due to the french language that wasn't translated. I've put the book down until the 10th to finish another book and to explore another translation in hard copy.

I love reading this translation on my Kindle, but it doesn't have a table of contents nor a character reference in the beginning of the book. I'm headed to the bookstore!!!!

[D. A.]

Amalie wrote: "D. A. wrote: "Let's start our discussion with thoughts and/or questions on Book 1."

I hope this means you will lead the discussions :) I just opened a new folder and you can open the threads. I op..."

Also, 'Thank You' for creating a separate folder!!!

[Bigollo]

D. A. wrote: "Shanez wrote: "I once started to read Louise & Aylmer Maude translation though I didn't finish it, but I would recommend it! It seemed good. But I recently bought the P/V translation which is real..."

Just a thought:
In the original, Russian version there are lines in French here and there - mostly in the very beginning of the book.
Sometimes a character may start a line in Russian and finish it in French. Or vice versa. And that is IMPORTANT! The author did that on purpose, to provide some extra insight or stress something.
So, when both the Russian and French parts are translated uniformly into English, some subtleties get lost in the process.
P/V translation has a huge advantage by the fact that they keep French parts intact with the translation in footnotes.
Anyway, just a thought..

[D. A.]

I decided to go to the bookstore and compare translations and settled on the Barnes & Noble Classic edition.
1. I like the balance between English and French with the translated footnotes.
2. List of characters separated by family.
3. Invasion and retreat maps.

The table of contents was oversimplified, but...it's War and Peace!!!

Happy Reading

[D. A.]

Another quick note...

I'll be posting the discussions as Amalie has done it for Anna Karenina. However, based on the editions we choose to read I will list chapters as they are in my edition. I realize chapters may or may not vary based on translation.

[Tarun]

I have ordered the Constance Garnett translation (B&N Classics)...expecting the same in a few days.

[Amalie]

D. A. wrote: ". Do you have any other tips for leading discussions as I want to keep discussions as close to the format the group is used to following?..."


Here are some tips on how to lead a book club discussion:
http://bestsellers.about.com/od/bookc...

Other than that you can decide on it. As you said the chapters are different in your edition, so you can just mention the "book" like

War and Peace - Book One - (May 10 to 17)

We usually don't open all the threads at the same time, but while reading them. You can decide on how many days to give to read "one book". Enjoy!!! :)

[[deleted user]]

I have the Constance Garnett translation too. I am a week behind but I have been wanting to read this, so it seems like a good time!

[dely]

Book One: (1805 - chapters 28)- May 10 to 17
Book Two: (1805 - chapters 21)
Book Three: (1805 - chapters 19)
Book Four: (1806 - chapters 16)
Book Five: (1806-07 - chapters 22)
Book Six: (1808-10 - chapters 26)
Book Seven: (1810-11 - chapters 18)
Book Eight: (1811-12 - chapters 22)
Book Nine: (1812 - chapters 23)
Book Ten: (1812 - chapters 39)
Book Eleven: (1812 - chapters 34)
Book Twelve: 1812 - chapters 16
Book Thirteen: 1812 - chapters 19
Book Fourteen: 1812 - chapters 19
Book Fifteen: 1812-13 - chapters 20
First Epilogue: 1813-20 - chapters 16
Second Epilogue: 1813-20 - chapters 12

I don't know who is reading War and Peace and who is following the discussions who are already open but I am sure I have found out my "problem" of chapters and the book numbering who is different (who has read the discussion about book one knows what I am talking about).

My edition (three volumes) is divided in 4 books; every book has 3, 4 or 5 parts; every part has chapters.
What you (it is a generic "you", I am not referring to Amalie who has written the message I am replying) call in the schedule "books" for me are parts. It is because of this that I have posted in the wrong discussion. I have already read (my) book one (nearly 300 pages) and this matches with (your) three chapters.
I don't want to delete again my messages in the discussion of book one so I have added the spoilers. So, please, don't read them. I will make later a copy/paste when also the other discussions will be ready.

[dely]

If would be nice if somebody could answer me so I know where to write my comments to the book without the risk to add spoilers.

[MMR.]

dely, I'm sorry I can't really advise you what to do about yr posts as I am new here.

My edition, tr by Peaver and Volokhonsky, is divided into four Volumes and an epilogue, each with several parts.I'm in
Volume One, Part Three now. I find it terribly interesting even
though with family duties I don't seem to get enough time to read
and then when I get back to it I almost feel I need a review of what I read. Should take notes maybe.

[dely]

Henriet wrote: "dely, I'm sorry I can't really advise you what to do about yr posts as I am new here.

My edition, tr by Peaver and Volokhonsky, is divided into four Volumes and an epilogue, each with several part..."

Thanks however for the reply ^^
I asked because I don't want to write spoilers in the wrong discussion and I would like to write my opinions in the right discussion.

You are right, it is a very compelling book and I have nearly finished the first volume (if I have done right my calculations for your editions it is part (or book) 5.

[Tarun]

dely wrote: "My edition (three volumes) is divided in 4 books; every book has 3, 4 or 5 parts; every part has chapters.
What you (it is a generic "you", I am not referring to Amalie who has written the message I am replying) call in the schedule "books" for me are parts. It is because of this that I have posted in the wrong discussion. I have already read (my) book one (nearly 300 pages) and this matches with (your) three chapters.
"
Hey Dely!...thats exactly where the confusion lies.I think u are reading a different edition and hence the confusion.
I have the Constance Garnett translation which is a single volume and it matches the above index.

[dely]

Tarun wrote: "Hey Dely!...thats exactly where the confusion lies.I think u are reading a different edition and hence the confusion.
I have the Constance Garnett translation which is a single volume and it matches the above index. "

Poor me :(
Yes, I am reading an Italian edition.
I will wait till the other members write in the discussions so I see to which part of my edition it matches though I think your "books" are my "parts". The difference is that I must always count from the beginning because the first book has 3 parts, then book two has 4 parts and so on.
So, if by mistake I write some spoilers, don't hate me!

When will you join? Have you already started the book?

[Tarun]

I started reading but then a book I was very eager to read came up and I postponed the W&P read.
Will join soon.

[Amalie]

Updated schedule:

continuation of.......

Book Eight: (1811-12 - chapters 22) - Sept. 9 -1 6
Book Nine: (1812 - chapters 23)- Sept. 17 - 23
Book Ten: (1812 - chapters 39)- Sept. 24 - 30
Book Eleven: (1812 - chapters 34)
Book Twelve: 1812 - chapters 16
Book Thirteen: 1812 - chapters 19
Book Fourteen: 1812 - chapters 19
Book Fifteen: 1812-13 - chapters 20
First Epilogue: 1813-20 - chapters 16
Second Epilogue: 1813-20 - chapters 12

[Bigollo]

What’s in a name?

Just wanted to share a bit of trivia here.

War and Peace. Or “Voyna i Mir” in Russian.

I am sorry I don’t have Cyrillic keyboard; if I had, it would be much easier to say what I am going to now.

The Russian word MIR has three homonyms, that is, three meanings that are pronounced and spelled identically – MIR (well, if transcribe it from Cyrillic to Latinic).

Here are the first two most used meanings:

1. MIR = WORLD
2. MIR = PEACE

Now, stay with me for a minute here, please.
Imagine you are a Russian reader, you see the title of the book first time (it was just published), would you guess immediately weather it means ‘War and Peace’ or ‘War and the World’? (I put the article ‘the’ here so it sounds better, but mind you – Russian does not have even a concept of grammatical article). Of course not! For those of you who have already read quite a bit into the book, would you guess by now which of the two homonyms was meant to be by Lev Nikolaevich? (If you were a Russian reader that is.)
I agree - the word ‘Peace’ is begging for the choice, simply because Peace is the opposite to War, so we have a nice little mirror here in the title. But is it a good title for the real content of the book? Well, that would be totally up to an individual reader, another subject for debate.

Is that the trivia? No. Stay with me just yet. Remember I said there are THREE homonyms? The third homonym is not widely used in current Russian - although it healthily lives now in many idioms and sayings – but it seems that it was in wide use in 19th century Russia. This homonym is harder to translate. Depending on the context, it could be translated ‘community’, ‘society’, even ‘commune’.

3. MIR = COMMUNITY, SOCIETY

So if the book was titled ‘War and Society’, would you like it better?:) I know, habit is second nature, now we’re so used to the – War and Peace.

This third homonym has an interesting history. It was spelled differently, although pronounced identically. The middle vowel character was different from the one used for the first two meanings. I use Past Tense because this character does not exist in modern Russian any more. It was thrown away due to sheer redundancy, it stood for a sound that was equally well provided by another character. [it’s like ‘c’ and ‘k’ in English if to forget that ‘c’ sometimes sounds as ‘s’. BTW, that discarded letter is a reverent member of the Latin alphabet, it’s exactly this – ‘i’.:) ]

Today, i don't know since when, but since long ago, the three homonyms are spelled (as well as pronounced) - identically.

But! That discarded character was a legitimate member of the Russian version of Cyrillic in the time when W&P was written!

And here’s (finally!) that piece of trivia that I’d found and wanted to share with you.

In the manuscript for the literary magazine ‘Ruskiy Vestnik’ (Russian Herald), Tolstoy wrote the title with the spelling of the THIRD homonym, the one that stood for ‘society’!

That’s all.

[Lisa]

Wow Bigollo, that's interesting! But was the book translated into English posthumously? The third name sounds good!

[Bigollo]

Lisa wrote: "Wow Bigollo, that's interesting! But was the book translated into English posthumously? The third name sounds good!"

First translations of W&P came pretty early, during Tolstoy’s life-time.

[I heard the first English translation was made from a French one. One can only imagine how many errors and inaccuracies might have accumulated in that first English version due to the double translation run.]

What I told in the message 29, I had read in the article by A.M. Ranchin which is attached with my Russian copy of War and Peace. What is interesting, Ranchin says that Tolstoy wrote the word MIR with the spelling meaning ‘society’ in his MANUSCRIPT for the magazine ‘Ruskiy Vestnik’. What came out of the type-setting for the publishing remains unclear (to me). Is it possible that already in that time the character [i] was going out of fashion and being gradually replaced by modern [и] in official print? I don’t know. But it does not matter. Eventually all three homonyms got to be spelled identically.

I also have a vague feeling that I hear about this not the first time. Long time ago, I think my high school teacher back in Russia mentioned something about it. And I think I saw a photo of a fragment of Tolstoy’s handwritten manuscript with this character [i] in MIR.

What was Tolstoy’s reaction to the translated word ‘Peace’, I also don’t know. It is possible to explore further. I don’t have time for that, plus it’s not THAT interesting to me what surrounds the book. I’m mostly a reader of the literature itself:)

But. Tolstoy definitely realized that he was throwing out a pun (for the Russian reader). Maybe it was partially a reason why he came up with this title. He was young enough at that time to play:). Maybe he came up first with the word ‘society’, and then when the loss of one character in the alphabet smudged the meaning of the word into three-fold ambiguity he laughed and said, so be it. Who knows? He was writing the novel for a long time.

Since in our 'MIR' (our group), most people don’t read in Russian, I felt almost obliged to share this trivia with you guys. So that we all know things are not that simple as simply War and Peace:)

[dely]

Bigollo wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Wow Bigollo, that's interesting! But was the book translated into English posthumously? The third name sounds good!"

First translations of W&P came pretty early, during Tolstoy’s lif..."

Very interesting! Reading the book I was wondering why it was called War&Peace seen that il talks about war and life in society, above all in the aristocratic circles.

[Amalie]

Has anyone read this translation: War & Peace? I did not even know this even existed.