Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Book Discussion & Recommendation
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Why do we accept "rapeyness" in fiction?
O/T @ Alex "Moron" fell out of favor with psychologists because it was associated with the American Eugenics movement. In the 1920's, it was legal for states to force sterilization on female "morons" and the like. In order to tie this to the main topic, one justification for forced serialization of females with low IQ was not just for better "eugenics", but because such women were thought likely to be "promiscuous" and no one seemed to notice or seriously protest the rape of such women in institutions.
PointyEars42 wrote: "I see what you did there - usin..."I have to admit I didn't notice that until I had already written it. Punishment by rectal insertion of inanimate objects seems to be a rather common notion for threats and angry outbursts.
Tangled, thanks for adding a little to my education. My impression was that moron would be one of the more acceptable words (I probably used it a lot to avoid retard).
I'd imagine a lot of bad things tend to be ignored in institutions where it is easy to stop seeing people as human beings. It's easier when they are just "criminals" or "retards" or maybe "aspiring worm fodder".
We like having our human rights, but are often pretty good at finding excuses why they don't apply to someone else (so somewhat get back to war, pillaging and raping).
Alex wrote: "PointyEars42 wrote: "I see what you did there - usin..."I have to admit I didn't notice that until I had already written it. Punishment by rectal insertion of inanimate objects seems to be a rath..."
In modern use, moron is probably fine, because no one remembers the older usage. :)
PS I admit I still find it jarring to read old court cases talking about "bastards" and "morons" and the states' legitimate interests in controlling such problems.
Tangled wrote: "In modern use, moron is probably fine, because no one remembers the older usage. :) "It sounds kinda sexy when Amy Pond says it.
Killing, I think, is slightly more palatable because we have tacitly understood reasons (as a society) that there are some situations in which killing is an acceptable option - in self defense, trying to protect someone else. We can even understand wanting to kill someone out of revenge, even though we may not agree with it (both on a personal level and on the state-sanctioned, capital punishment level). There are, though, no such views on rape. There's no justified reason to ever rape someone - even Alex had to work hard to come up with a scenario where someone might go, 'well, I can see why someone would make that choice'.
I've been doing a lot of thinking about this thread since I posted, and I realized I dislike rapeyness in fiction more than I thought I did. Because it's so prevalent, it 'normalizes' assault. It makes it seem like 'rape' is just the result of a miscommunication, and that a man (or woman) who commits rape probably just didn't hear 'no' and didn't understand what they were doing is wrong. The sad truth is, that's not the case - you can read studies about this. One of the most prominent was done by a Dr. Lissak, who studied uncaught rapists. What he found was that there were a small subsection of men who committed multiple rapes apiece. And they generally constructed a situation in which they could get away with it - using alcohol, implied threat of force, etc., so that if the woman did come forward, she would immediately be called to account for why she decided to go up to his apartment that night or why she drank so much - does she have a drinking problem? The really scary thing? If you asked these men if they ever raped a woman, they'd say no. But they did have sex with a woman against her will. They just didn't rape her.
And the other thing about these men - they think this is just how people work. They think that other men behave the same way they do, it's just that those other guys are better at not getting caught and that a woman only accuses a man of rape when she regrets having sex or wants to get revenge on the man for something unrelated. And having these 'rapey' scenes only convinces those sorts of people that they're right - women secretly *do* want to be treated this way!
So, yeah - I have even less tolerance for scenes like the one which started this discussion than I did before. >.<
Chapter XXI: Being a Chapter That Concerns Itself with Diverse Matters, of an Unpleasant NatureMaybeMaeby Said:
“Obviously there's a big difference between fiction and reality. Just because we accept or even enjoy the rapey-ness of these type of novels does not mean we condone it in real life.
If you don't wanna read the rapey scenes, don't read them, if you see someone say no, just skip along. It's not like anyone is sitting next to you holding your eyes open with toothpicks and forcing you to read it. Writers should be able to write whatever they want in the way they see fit. It's up to you to choose whether or not to read it.”
It’s disingenuous to characterize the question in the terminology of censorship – this isn’t a question of whether it should be there, or should be prohibited, or removed. It is, as the thread title suggests, a discussion of WHY it is considered acceptable as a standard form of relationship in the genre. It’s not a matter of reading it or not, but rather why people think it’s acceptable. The question has been answered in a number of ways, but there is still more to be said.
Alex Said:
“I need to get out the soap box for a bit, because in a strange way this whole "inappropriate use or words in WoW" just had me take a step back and look at it without any attached emotions.
[snip]
Anyway, I find it interesting. The whole concept and point of WoW is essentially to kill a ridiculous amount of beings for personal gain. "Invading" dungeons and slaying everything inside to steal their stuff. Yet, some kids abusing the word "rape" is a big deal?”
There is a difference between game mechanics and personal interaction. Consider a game with a non-killing, non weapon-based mechanic – for instance, any sports game. Tensions ride as high, competition is equally fierce, and the language remains the same. Why? Because the language is from the players – this is personal interaction. And that interaction is through words. Just words, right? No biggie. And yet words are how we model thought, transmit it, virtually (it’s virtual because it’s not the actual thought, but a representation of it) from one to another. Words can give us Shakespeare and Mein Kampf. Words frame the theory of evolution, as well as creationism. Words have power. Words last long after physical wounds have healed: how many people still reel from being told in childhood that they were fat, ugly, a loser, not good enough? How long do the words “I don’t love you anymore” rebound in your head? Words are all we have to shape, describe our human experience – you can’t speak a picture, you can’t twitter a sculpture. So yeah, words have power, and some words, some concepts are not to be taken lightly. We each draw our lines in that regard. The Nazis will never repopulate Auschwitz, but you do not make jokes about the Holocaust around me, as my son discovered to his dismay when he parroted a joke some soulless 4chan buddy made – and I’m not even jewish. I’m an American, and that’s just not something my America jokes about. Another is rape.
“And from here you get to the unavoidable question: how come killing is perfectly fine hero-behaviour, but rape can make someone stop reading? How come that forcing sex on someone is considered so much worse than ending a persons life, permanently?”
The “heroic code”, in my youth encouraged the hero to avoid taking lives where he could, in particular, villain lives (as there was no question he wasn’t going to take the lives of innocents – heroes protect the innocent, period). That the villain died anyway, was more often due to his own misguided machinations, than from any action of the hero. With the popularity of deconstructing the hero in the 80’s, and the subsequent pervasiveness of the deconstructed hero from then on (to the point where it has become the new norm, rather than an experimental study) it’s small wonder that the question about a “killing hero” should arise. I’ll put this to you: when my father was a young teen (mind you, this was before Pearl Harbor) he hatched a plot with his friends to run off to Canada, lie about their ages, so they could join the RAF, and get in on fighting these Nazis that were all over the news. At that age, it was less of a moral imperative for him (also given that we had no idea what was really happening over there till later), than the romance of going to fight the bad guys. The plan never bore fruit, but when he turned 18, and graduated from High School, he was down at the recruiting office, because by then, we were officially involved. He did his time, fighting in Europe, and then got his Victory ship rerouted to the Pacific on his way home. There are two things that came out of this.
1) He would only ever tell us the funny, day to day life stories about his time there, and promised us he shot over the heads of the Germans, to scare them.
2) He came home, used his GI Bill to go to school and study Art and History, eventually getting his teaching degree. He used this to go into the inner city to teach High School art, history, and social science in places like Compton, and later to go to the agro side of the town I grew up in, to teach the Latino children of the farm workers. He also tutored emotionally challenged youths, on the side.
It didn’t take long to realize he was lying about the “shooting over the heads” bit, and at first I thought it was to spare our young feelings. It was some time later that I realized that it wasn’t our feelings he was trying to spare, so much as the disconnect inside himself – that as a civilized man, a man who taught, who truly believed, in the sanctity of life, and our responsibility to each other… he didn’t want to have to tell his children that he had killed people. It may not sound like much to some people, but you have to understand – he saw himself as a member of society, and to him, one of the core behaviors of members of society is an abhorrence to killing. Despite being one of the funniest people I knew, a man well loved by his peers, who had a voracious appetite for people, all people, from anywhere, I think it haunted him till the day he died.
Now, do I believe that lives sometimes need to be taken? Absolutely, but it should never be an easy thing to do.
Unless it’s Nazis (Hey, we all have our little hypocritical corners – Nazis are one of mine).
“The Joker's pencil scene in The Dark Knight. It would seem the typical reaction was between "cool" and "lol", with maybe a little bit of this overused clip. Sure, he was the bad guy, but who actually went "oh my god, that monster, that was horrible"?”
The appeal of a scene like this is part of why writers say it’s so much easier, so much more satisfying to write villains, than straight heroes: because the villain has so much more latitude in his behavior. He can give vent to our bloody-minded instincts, that the hero has to push down, if he shows any sign of them at all. Which is why, when the hero triumphs in the end, we are satisfied: we got to see our inner monster unleashed, but now has been safely tucked away, and we can go on with life. The hero gains coolness by being able to take out the cool villain (because let’s face it, who hasn’t been the one to fall short of the cool guy? Or maybe that’s just me: Me am Geekboi #1) It’s also why they take such care in casting villains – the cool villain makes the battle much more entertaining to watch, than a simple “I just want to destroy the world” sort.
PointyEars42 Said:
Rapey sex/dubious-consent sex in the books we've been reading (the romance genre) seem to try to normalise the act for the very reading target market most likely to experience it, who are experiencing it, and yes, I think we should all be kicking up a fuss over it.
That’s pretty much where I’ve been standing. While it’s true: videogames/movies etc don’t CAUSE a person to behave badly, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have an impact. We all like to think we’re immune to advertizing, but jingles DO stick in our heads. Brand names on a certain level promise validity, or inversely we may consciously avoid, just because, if nothing else, we are sick of the advertizing. It is successful in building our awareness of the product, one way or the other. It got in our heads, and does effect what we buy, even if just in avoidance. And books are no different. We experience books as though they were first hand events. How many people have a book they can point to that changed their lives? Changed their way of seeing things? How many Christians/[insert your favorite old time religion] shape their entire lives around 2500 year old writings by barely self-aware desert wanderers? Why do we have things like Trekkies, Objectivists, and even Goreans, who reshape their philosophies around the works of hack fiction writers? Yes, I can read a dozen romances, and not think rape is okay – I have worked on building filters, on being aware as much as possible about what is influencing me and why. However, reading these books, and seeing both the prevalence of behaviors I see as rape, and the arguments people give defending the behaviors, does influence how unrealistic I have to view my thoughts on the unity of women in regards to hating rape. See, I am being influenced by what I read, and I am a lot more careful about examining what is said vs what it actually means, than a lot of guys. How much worse is it when you excuse rapey-ness in your preferred fiction, that you endorse the fact that your heroines want to be forced to have sex, that there are going to be guys around you who don’t know if they are the hero of the story, or the villain – the one you want to force you, vs the unwelcome attentions of the villain. It’s a big difference to say…violence in books/media, as violence is an extreme, and hopefully not a behavior that will have everyday opportunities for expression. Whereas “rapey-ness” centers on essentially male/female interfacing, which is an everyday interpersonal experience. Do you really want to muddy THAT water?
Alex wrote: "And from here you get to the unavoidable question: how come killing is perfectly fine hero-behaviour, but rape can make someone stop reading? How come that forcing sex on someone is considered so much worse than ending a persons life, permanently?"This is called a trigger. A person who was raped can have this trigger memories of an awful event in their lives and it's possible they will relive the event over and over until they can mash it back down.
A person who was killed won't be reading anything because they're now dead.
Alex wrote: "The Joker's pencil scene in The Dark Knight. It would seem the typical reaction was between "cool" and "lol", with maybe a little bit of this overused clip. Sure, he was the bad guy, but who actually went "oh my god, that monster, that was horrible"?
Or, badass hero enters building full of thugs. One gives him lip, he snaps his neck to make a point. We accept that he is the "good guy", we may raise our eyebrow, question if it was really necessary. But 1min later we get a big action scene where he gets to beat everybody up and break a few more necks, and by now we don't care anymore and at most judge the fight choreography."
I thought the Joker's scene with the pencil was horrifying and I have to look away when I know it's coming.
I will cheer for a hero when they kill people who are going to kill them, but gratuitous violence makes me sick and if they're killing just for fun, I don't want to watch it. I don't advertise this because I don't want to be badgered about "it's just a movie; lighten up". It's possible you know more people like me who also don't want to be singled out for how they feel about violence.
Rachel wrote: ...I had to check with a dictionary to be sure it means what I think it means (no, not "inconceivable"). I guess "date rape" pretty much covers what you described.
The scary part is, I can actually see how their screwed up mind might work. "It's ok. Once we're at it, she will come around. I just have to do her good and she will like it. No harm done, just a little nudge. It's not rape, if she likes it." I guess that last part might apply just as well to some books.
Sarge wrote: ...
I guess an extreme oversimplification would be "words have meaning". But at the same time I think that "it's just words" is a common attitude, yet it clearly doesn't apply to all words.
Simple example: somebody is teasing you. Jokingly replying "I'm going to kill you" is well understood and not taken seriously. Replace it with the topic of this thread and nobody will be laughing.
Caitlin wrote: "I don't advertise this because I don't want to be badgered about "it's just a movie; lighten up""
While I'm more in the "it's just a movie" camp, I can perfectly accept if someone isn't. Embarrassing fact, I have a tendency to cry at cheesy scenes (something as lame as the ending of Family of Blood gets me everytime). So it's easy to imagine how someone can have a strong reaction to violent scenes.
Katinka wrote: "Seriously? What you think it means? How their mind "might" work? "I didn't want to assume a connotation that doesn't exist, just because of the context I usually see the expression used in. We Germans can be very thorough and bureaucratic.
So yes, I wanted to check and it turned out that exactly the two things Rachel mentioned (alcohol and threats) are actually listed examples for the secondary meaning. Which is what I wanted to confirm, before summarizing what she described in a single word (or two).
Not sure why you emphasize the "might". Since I haven't date raped anybody, I can't know how their mind "does" work. And trying to get an idea how they "might" justify it for themselves is about as much as I can do. I may not be particulary good at getting into someones mind, but I still usually try.
At no point did or would I claim to "get it" from the victims perspective. With or without "might".
Well, I think by now I spent about half an hour staring at your post, deciding if I should comment on the rest of it. Chances are, that even if I mean well, it's likely to come off wrong. Language barrier wouldn't be helping either.
Katinka wrote: "It's okay. I think I will just stop following this discussion. It makes me too emotional. It is incomprehensible why people can be so mean. There are so many other ways people abuse and mistreat ..."
I never did anything that would leave a scar on someone's mind (excluding some fanfiction i wrote in elementary school), but if i apologise for the living pieces of shit, will it make you feel less uncomfortable?
Rachel wrote: "And the other thing about these men - they think this is just how people work. They think that other men behave the same way they do, it's just that those other guys are better at not getting caught and that a woman only accuses a man of rape when she regrets having sex or wants to get revenge on the man for something unrelated. And having these 'rapey' scenes only convinces those sorts of people that they're right - women secretly *do* want to be treated this way!"Very succinctly put. Hadn't thought about it exactly that way, but now that you do, it reminds me of a short story I wrote some years back, about a dotty old shut-in, who murders a visiting clergyman, because it makes the horrible visions go away. Later, after disposing of his body in the fireplace, she goes out into the world refreshed. She notices the smoke coming from a friend's chimney, and thinks it would be a good day to go visit her later, as she obviously has taken care of her "little problem" as well - she thought everyone had the same problem, and a smoking chimney meant they were now safe for a time to visit. Admittedly, not the same as rape, and just a morbidly whimsical tale - so rest assured I'm not making light of rape. Just noticing how it echoes a similar mentality.
Katrinka Said: "It is incomprehensible why people can be so mean. There are so many other ways people abuse and mistreat others. Sociopathy. It doesn't make sense. But guys can be assholes. Even when they're not raping someone else."
Re: Katinka, or Who's On First: Kat - were you implying that Alex was one of the assholes in question because he was attempting to model the thinking of a rapist, in an attempt to understand (but no condone) it? Because Rachel just did the same thing, and I seriously doubt she's either a rapist herself, nor a supporter.
This is why quoting and underlining particular posts is so very important when objecting to each other's positions on here - communication, as always, is key.
I grew up in a strongly feminist town, so spent a good part of my 20's being "a man and therefore the source of all evil". I was paying for all the wrongdoings of men that women couldn't take out on the actual source of their wounds. I'll own that I can be an asshole sometimes, but it doesn't mean I am going to take responsibility for anyone else being an asshole. Nor should anyone else.
"But guys can be assholes. Even when they're not raping someone else."
Ahhh, by that thinking women can be "sluts who secretly want it". And hence, sexist generalizations keep feeding into the cycle. Everyone has an asshole, men AND women. "Women can be assholes, even when they aren't heaping crippling failure on a guy for failing to provide what the woman wants, even though she never said she wanted it (because asking for it would spoil the magic, duh!)." I could certainly make such a generalization based on a good dozen or more women I've been with who did just that, but it would be wrong, because the dozens more I was with who weren't that way.
Snowflakes, people.
Although rape effects more women than men, and women tend to feel more vulnerable even if they were not personally assaulted, men can be raped too. It's always a violation and it always leaves deep scars. Katinka shared something extremely personal and painful--I don't think it was meant as an accusation about posts here nor a real condemnation of the entire male gender. No one thinks all men are rapists (well, not since Andria Dworkin passed away, RIP, and even she qualified it as "potential rapists"). But to be honest, I'm more likely to have my pepper spray ready if a strange man approaches me in a parking lot than a strange woman. It's an emotional reaction, not a logical one. Don't take it personally.
We all know there is a difference between someone who gives nonverbal encouragement and acts to imply consent without saying exactly what he or she wants and someone who is too scared or drunk (or drugged) to say no or to have no taken seriously. I don't think anyone is a "slut" for wanting sex, whether secretly or openly. Being sexually active or sexually curious is no excuse for rape.
@Katinka:I am so, so sorry that happened to you :(.
Tangled wrote: “Although rape effects more women than men, and women tend to feel more vulnerable even if they were not personally assaulted, men can be raped too. It's always a violation and it always leaves deep scars. Katinka shared something extremely personal and painful--I don't think it was meant as an accusation about posts here nor a real condemnation of the entire male gender. I know, and perhaps I was insensitive to not address my own regret over what happened to her. I HAVE authored several lengthy posts in this thread both condemning rape, as well as poking holes in attempts BY WOMEN to characterize rapey-ness as anything but rape. But still, I do understand the pain and humiliation, and am very sorry she had to go through it. That said, despite being a male (and therefore obviously completely unable to understand the impact of personal tragedy) I do understand many of the elements of rape. Pain, inexpressible rage, humiliation, and the worst word in the English language: inconsolable. Pain that has no surcease. My mother had her breast cancer resurface in her late 50’s, metastasized to her spine. The doctors told her that the chemo (of the time) ran a good chance of causing brain damage. It did. So we took her home, to care for her, because we didn’t want her left in a hospital room where people could only care for her when there was time. She was well loved, a k-1 teacher, who embodied all the BEST parts of Christianity: compassionate, non-judgemental, always reaching out to help people, no matter their religion or beliefs or place in society. She was a woman who loved her god, and life. A voracious reader, I can barely summon an image of her where she didn’t have a book. So, this hungry intellect, and kind heart, came home, and I got to watch as. Day. By Day. That person disappeared. Not her body, but the person. We fed her, bathed her, repositioned her, cleaned her soiled linens. And there was less and less of her each day, until her eyes were fixed and vacant. Gone. It took morphine to convince her body it was time to let go. And I was so angry. Furious. That this incredible person, this kind and generous person would be killed in this manner. Dead in a car accident? Painful, but quick. A wasting disease that just withered her body? Tragic, but that’s illness. But to destroy her brain, an inch at a time was just sadism. 20 years later, my eldest sister died of the same sort of cancer – blessedly without the brain damage. My dad, his lungs packed it in due to long exposure to building chemicals from his youth, and later in life (inbetween, he was a high school teacher), but he was in his late 80’s, so if it hadn’t been that, it would have been something else. All four of my grandparents. My aunt and uncle. So yes, I DO understand pain, and particularly in my mom’s case, just cruel brutal pain. The difference between Kat and I? She has a face and name for her pain, she can find the author of her misery on Facebook. She can pinpoint her rage, and it resides in a single person. And instead, she casts it out, in general to half the human race. I had no one to focus my rage on. I had to let it go, or be defined by it, like the perpetual widow, who won’t move past her loss.
So no, I don’t diminish the horror of rape – it’s inconceivable to me. However, after a certain point, you don’t get to lay it at the feet of half of the species anymore.
No one thinks all men are rapists (well, not since Andria Dworkin passed away, RIP, and even she qualified it as "potential rapists"). But to be honest, I'm more likely to hove my pepper spray ready if a strange man approaches me in a parking lot than a strange woman. It's an emotional reaction, not a logical one. Don't take it personally.
You are SO wrong there – I’ve met a number of women who think all males are rapists by nature. And it has been put to me with the same provocation “You have to excuse her – she was raped”. Well. I DIDN’T DO IT. If I were black, and someone experienced a personal tragedy because of a black man and started on a rant about how “all niggers were xyz”, would everyone be so quick to excuse them? Or Jewish? Or French? (okay, maybe French, cause you know….French people are all so… French…kidding of course. I’ve had nothing but wonderful times in France). It seems pretty common for groups of one gender or the other to make sweeping comments about the other. Having grown up with 3 older sisters, I spent a lot of time being the outsider in Women’s World, listening to the catalogue of my gender’s sins. Think I’m making it up? How many people here have felt uncomfortable in predominantly male forums because of the stuff they say? How many have been out for a Girl’s Night and not heard a commiserating “men are dogs/assholes/jerks” et al? I know a lot of women feel comfortable here, as though it’s a “girl’s club”, and so feel safe, as though the audience is all going to be behind them. But it’s not. I’m the “uppity male” who doesn’t know his place. And the thing is, you likely won’t find someone more compassionate to women’s issues, but I have a bullshit meter, and it works – I checked the batteries and everything.
We all know there is a difference between someone who gives nonverbal encouragement and acts to imply consent without saying exactly what he or she wants and someone who is too scared or drunk (or drugged) to say no or to have no taken seriously. I don't think anyone is a "slut" for wanting sex, whether secretly or openly. Being sexually active or sexually curious is no excuse for rape.
I was using “slut” in the classic rapist’s excuse form – I actually wrote a lengthy aside further back in the thread, calling for reclaiming the word slut, for men and women, as a celebration of enthusiasm for sex. I am a total slut for my fiancée, and she for me.
You’ll get no argument from me in regards to the fact that a woman has the right to say no, even in the midst of the act, and expect to have her wish respected. As I stated elsewhere in the thread, I have walked away from situations where I discovered later I would have been welcome, simply because I couldn’t be sure if consent was being given. I’ll be damned if I’ll be someone else’s horror story (well, at least in regards to rape – what they thought about the horror of our consensual sex is something I suppose would be instructive to know, but given the face I see in the mirror, I don’t need any more blows to my ego.)
Sarge wrote: "You are SO wrong there – I’ve met a number of women who think all males are rapists by nature. "Imagine you were mauled by a large dog, but lived and had horrible memories of the event. Would you be scared of dogs?
Imagine you hadn't been mauled by a dog, but everyone in your life told you "you need to protect yourself from dogs - one in four people are attacked and two thirds of those who are attacked knew the dog attacking them".
Thinking all men are rapists is the same vein. Obviously not all men are rapists; very few are. But how are you supposed to know whether you're safe? In the example with the dog, you're wary at first until you learn to trust. But some people have been scarred so badly that they'll be terrified of dogs the rest of their lives, and we shouldn't look down on them for that.
I hope everyone understands what I'm trying to explain here and doesn't just go "herp derp she's calling all men dogs herp derp".
My mother bemoans the fact that neither I nor my sisters were involved in sports. To this day, she speaks as though we would all be more successful if we had just been on the softball team, like she was as a youth. She seems to have deliberately forgotten that she spent the whole of our childhoods telling us "Don't let the ball hit you in the face!" and "If you're better at sports than the boys, they won't like you." Needless to say, that is why none of us played sports. What if I am a star basketball player, and I never knew it because I never played? What if my best friend was on that team, and I will never know her? What if that coach influenced my life in a positive way? What if I missed out on high school dating because the star quaterback never saw me throw? I'll never know, because I was too afraid of the ball to find out. I was taught to fear.As a kid, I had nightmares about wolves and dogs on a regular basis. I was terrified of them. My aunt and uncle had a medium sized dog who loved children, was sweet and gentle, and even saved the life of a child by pushing the kid out of the way of an oncoming car and actually got hit himself. It wasn't until I moved in with them at 14 that I was able to get over my fear, and then it was because I had no choice. I am still nervous around bigger, unknown dogs (especially if they are running at me and barking lol) but I now know better than to assume all dogs are trying to kill me. But I am not an animal lover, and I don't understand people who are, because I was too afraid to experience owning a pet.
I know that seems off topic and unrelated, but you can't live your life in fear. That's not really living. And it is unfortunate for those people who have had such horrible experiences that they can't resolve them. But no one has the right to assume some one's character. It just isn't fair.
As a woman and a survivor of sexual abuse, I would like to thank the men who work so hard to see the issue from a woman's perspective.
I know this is a heated topic, and I haven't posted much because I am worried that what I might say will offend people. Thankfully, Sarge and some of the others have made all my points anyway (thanks!). I just think it is unfortunate that this discussion seems to be degenerating into people defending their opinions in a very personal way instead of having an objective discussion. I believe that is what this thread intended.
Caitlin wrote: "Imagine you were mauled by a large dog, but lived and had horrible memories of the ev..."
I was in fact attacked by a dog when I was young...a great dane who dragged me by the arm around the lawn, so much so that at 49, I can still make out the scar. I also sat on a rotted log near my home, only to discover I'd crushed a yellowjacket nest (an observer swears it looked like a cartoon - a cloud of yellowjackets covering me, stinging at will). Through most of jr high and high school I suffered verbal as well as physical abuse from jocks, including being held down while one of them kicked me in the balls repeatedly) and faced death threats from them. And yet, at 49, I have 3 dogs (as well as a menagerie of other animals, including over 100 reptiles), I don't run from insects, and in fact have kept a number of arachnids - scorpions and tarantulas - and have a few jocks I am more or less friendly with (the paucity isn't due to fear, so much as lack of common interests). So the dog analogy doesn't really hold for me.
You can be kind and supportive without coddling, without supporting toxic reactions. My sisters and I love each other fiercely, but we're not above kicking each other's asses when when we're being stupid. Take a guess who encouraged me to make friends with dogs, to go back out into the woods and explore, to not judge all people of an athletic nature by the guys who beat me up? That's right - my sisters. And I still get bit by the odd animal, stung by the odd insect, and well, I don't take shit off anyone anymore, but they still try to be verbally abusive (in fact, more often than not, it's female gamer/jocks, all pumped and full of themselves and out to prove how badass they are, who get the most abusive...go and figger).
Anyone wishing to toss pig's blood on me, you can send it virtually on Facebook, I believe: https://www.facebook.com/theSarge00...
Sarge wrote: "Re: Katinka, or Who's On First: Kat - were you implying that Alex was one of the assholes in question because he was attempting to model the thinking of a rapist, in an attempt to understand (but no condone) it? Because Rachel just did the same thing, and I seriously doubt she's either a rapist herself, nor a supporter."I was worried that despite the quotation marks, it might have sounded like those are my thoughts or that I in some way agree with them.
Now, I don't know if the second post was directed at me. If it was, I clearly must have said something that came off wrong in a hurtful way. I'm sorry if that's case, but more than that, I would like to understand what it was, so I can be more careful in the future.
Maybe it was, that I basically decided to ignore a very personal thing that has been shared. I thought about it a long time, but the point is: nothing I can say will make any of it any better, yet there is infinite potential to make it worse. It's an emotional minefield, and I'm not good enough with words to navigate it.
Yes, I had "I'm sorry about what happened to you" already typed out. Then I removed it. It just doesn't feel right. "I'm sorry" is for "I'm sorry you missed your train" or "I'm sorry the weather ruined your BBQ". I simply have no words to express how bad it makes me feel to read something like this.
If it came across like I'm simply dismissing it or don't care, I truly apologize. The opposite is very much the case.
Sarge wrote: "Anyone wishing to toss pig's blood on me, you can send it virtually on Facebook, I believe: https://www.facebook.com/theSarge00..."No one wants to villainize you. I think you are taking some of the comments more personally than intended. :)
I wasn't making assumptions about you or attacking you. I was just commenting on points I thought you had raised. You seem to have taken it as an insult--and I am sorry. It just goes to show that all sorts of people can get a bit touchy one the topic of rape and how it intersects with gender issues.
Alex wrote: "Sarge wrote: "Re: Katinka, or Who's On First: Kat - were you implying that Alex was one of the assholes in question because he was attempting to model the thinking of a rapist, in an attempt to und..."Alex I don't think anything was directed at you. I don't even think anything was directed at Sarge (in a negative way). I think it's just that people become sensitive because it's an emotional topic.
Sarge wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "Imagine you were mauled by a large dog, but lived and had horrible memories of the ev..."
I was in fact attacked by a dog when I was young...a great dane who dragged me by the ar..."
I find your posts very interesting to read, and I think that you are able to present your opinion in a manner that is not offensive. It is nice to get a mans viewpoint on this.
It is intriguing about the whole "All men are assholes/threatening." I myself have always been surrounded by more men then women growing up, I hung out with my older brother and his friends more often than I did other females. (Most that I knew around that age were full of drama and catty, whereas most of the guys were stupid-fun and laid back and played video games lol) I work as an EMT, which while leveling out is still more a "Man's field." So I never really had a great fear of being raped or of strangers in general. I'm cautious, I don't walk around Detroit at night by myself, but I don't freak out anytime I see someone approaching me. However, there are times when you just get a gut feeling and I think it's better to be safe than sorry.
But I will say that I know women who have been taught from infancy to fear the outside world, that everyone is evil and to trust no one. 18+ years of that thinking can be hard to break. On top of that, women to think and reason differently then men on certain things. That isn't an excuse, but it does present a different viewpoint.
I do wish we had less sweeping generalities towards each other. All women are not sluts and all men are not assholes. Some women are assholes and some guys could be considered sluts. (I.E. I'm super-tough bitch gamergirl! Curse words will make the guys accept me! Also I hate that b/c as soon as they figure out I am a girl in their lobby they flip out and troll me and even all the guys are confused by it. But I digress...) I think things would be a lot better if everyone just made more of an effort to understand the other person's viewpoint, instead of just making excuses about it. Like on this thread, we all without a doubt agree that Rape is Rape and No Means No. However we all have differing opinions on use of the term in trash-talk or (weightless) insults. I'd be lying if I said I have never used it in a game that "We're getting raped.", but when it was used as a threatening comment towards me I felt very bothered by it. And while I agree that the more violence/sex we are exposed to the less sensitive we become, I still have strong feelings about murder, torture, rape etc. Makes me think of a song lyric, "What is a word if that word has lost it's meaning? If you say it all the time a dirty word will get it's cleaning."
I guess to rap up this ramble of a post, we all have varying degrees of sensitivity, and it can't hurt to be considerate of that when around others who may be genuinely offended by certain words/ideals.
Tangled wrote: "No one wants to villainize you. I think you are taking some of the comments more personally than intended. :)It's a little hard to not take "It is incomprehensible why people can be so mean [Who exactly was being mean?]. There are so many other ways people abuse and mistreat others. Sociopathy. It doesn't make sense. But guys can be assholes. Even when they're not raping someone else.". personally. Which was why I suggested the "slut" line - because it's the same sort of unreasoning generalization that leads to unpleasant behavior between genders.
I wasn't making assumptions about you or attacking you. I was just commenting on points I thought you had raised. You seem to have taken it as an insult--and I am sorry. It just goes to show that all sorts of people can get a bit touchy one the topic of rape and how it intersects with gender issues. "
No insult taken - I was just addressing a flaw in the defense. If I was overly anecdotal or emotionally based, it's only that saying something like "I understand your pain" means absolutely nothing without knowing whether the speaker is comparing pains on the level of "I had a paper cut once, and it really hurt" versus "I got dragged behind a truck for a mile over asphalt, broken glass, and salt." I obviously can't speak to the horror of rape, but as my example hopefully showed, I do know a thing or two about devastating pain. I'm not some snarky kid who's never lost anything in his life simply saying "Dude, get over yourself".
So I apologize if I made you feel as though you'd insulted me - not insulted in the least. It's just being the "bad man" who tried to hold someone accountable for their unreasoning response, even if she had been raped at one point, is bound to make me a "typical" insensitive demon male in some people's eyes.
Chloe wrote: "I find your posts very interesting to read, and I think that you are able to present your opinion in a manner that is not offensive. It is nice to get a mans viewpoint on this.Glad to oblige! And whew on not offending - it's really hard not to do.
So I never really had a great fear of being raped or of strangers in general. I'm cautious, I don't walk around Detroit at night by myself, but I don't freak out anytime I see someone approaching me. However, there are times when you just get a gut feeling and I think it's better to be safe than sorry.
It's called "common sense" - _I_ wouldn't walk around some areas of Detroit at night alone.
But I will say that I know women who have been taught from infancy to fear the outside world, that everyone is evil and to trust no one. 18+ years of that thinking can be hard to break. On top of that, women to think and reason differently then men on certain things. That isn't an excuse, but it does present a different viewpoint.
But we are still held to certain basic behavioral standards - not blaming half of the population of the earth for the behavior of not just one person, but an IDENTIFIED person, is not acceptable. For anyone.
I do wish we had less sweeping generalities towards each other. All women are not sluts and all men are not assholes. Some women are assholes and some guys could be considered sluts [That would be me...]. (I.E. I'm super-tough bitch gamergirl! Curse words will make the guys accept me! Also I hate that b/c as soon as they figure out I am a girl in their lobby they flip out and troll me and even all the guys are confused by it. But I digress...)
That is a sad testament to just how screwed up we are in relation to each other. Where else will a lot of these guys find a girl who actually shares their interest?
I think things would be a lot better if everyone just made more of an effort to understand the other person's viewpoint, instead of just making excuses about it. Like on this thread, we all without a doubt agree that Rape is Rape and No Means No. However we all have differing opinions on use of the term in trash-talk or (weightless) insults. I'd be lying if I said I have never used it in a game that "We're getting raped.", but when it was used as a threatening comment towards me I felt very bothered by it. And while I agree that the more violence/sex we are exposed to the less sensitive we become, I still have strong feelings about murder, torture, rape etc. Makes me think of a song lyric, "What is a word if that word has lost it's meaning? If you say it all the time a dirty word will get it's cleaning."
But but..that would mean you're all complex and stuff. Can't have that. Communication is definitely the key, and at that, GOOD communication (meaning get all the way through your thought - stopping halfway is as bad, if not worse, than not talking at all).
I guess to rap up this ramble of a post, we all have varying degrees of sensitivity, and it can't hurt to be considerate of that when around others who may be genuinely offended by certain words/ideals.
I am definitely guilty of that on occasion. Mea culpa.
It's part of being a grown up, and "in" society. Doesn't mean you have to be fake, or lie, but just be considerate. "Minding your P's and Q's" got lost somewhere along the way. A baseline of respect. I always start with everyone at "respect" and let their words/deeds decide whether it moves up to a "capital R" Respect, or down to a "Please shut up please shut up - don't make me want to punch you."
So, umm.. gamer chick, huh? Are you seeing anyone? [Someone HAD to do it...it's handy being old and ugly: I never have to worry that anyone is going to take me seriously]
Sarge wrote: " So, umm.. gamer chick, huh? Are you seeing anyone? [Someone HAD to do it...it's handy being old and ugly: I never have to worry that anyone is going to take me seriously] ..."
Good thing I'm totally over my gamer chicks phase [ after a very long raid (it took us 9 hours to finish it) I, on the whim, half-proposed to the girl that was the healer of the party. But hey! In my defence She kept us all alive for the duration of the raid ]
@Sarge Hey between S&L and VF gamer girls are runnin all over the place! :)But but..that would mean you're all complex and stuff. Can't have that. Communication is definitely the key, and at that GOOD communication (meaning get all the way through your thought - stopping halfway is as bad, if not worse, than not talking at all).
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate." - Couldn't resist... But yes clear communication in all of these aspects is key. Easier said than done however, as that can be hard to do when you are emotionally involved with a certain issue.
Also I agree with your statement about the "one identifiable person" statement. To briefly relate, my aunt (she was 20 at the time) was dating an asshole (he truly was) by the name of Gary. She was raised as a Christian, coal miners daughter kinda thing. Moved out when she was 19 to experience the world and started stripping and dating Gary. Now, she was a very, very, beautiful and sweet person, and even though she had gotten mixed up with a not-so-great crowd, it seemed as though she was making an effort to leave. (I was fairly young when this all happened, but I do remember one piece of advice she gave me. Never eat Spam.) Gary was crazy and controling. One night she was packing a suitcase to leave, and he pulled a gun on her. She called 911, told them he had a gun and was threatening to shoot if she left, and then he grabbed the phone and hung up. 3 1/2 minutes later he calls 911 saying she shot herself. Mixed signals there maybe? Sound a little fishy? No? Well apparently not. He never got charged and basically walked away scott free. (We later found out that he knew people at the PD supposedly...)
She was shot in the temple and was on life support for 5 days when they made the decision to take her off of it. My dad and grandpa went into the apartment to get her things, and the entire place had holes in the wall where he had smashed her head in. (Hair and blood, it was kinda obvious he was fighting with her.)
My grandparents were completely destroyed over the whole thing. No justice, no vengeance. After some efforts to charge Gary with no results they opted to try and just move on. My mom was pretty mentally f'd up from the whole thing. It is just a really horrible, horrible event that hides in the back of our closets.
I realize I got slightly off track there, but the point is that we all know who did it and who was responsible. I don't view all men that way, but I know that bastard is out there somewhere doing God-knows-what to some other poor girl. And that is what ticks me off. I don't blame all men, or even all men who happen to be jerks. (Because they are not all murderers either.) I know right where that anger and deep desire for justice lies. (Maybe that's why I like superheroes...)
As far as the last bit, I agree with the respect thing. A lot of people find something out about you and just try to push your buttons to see if they can get a rise. I try to be respectful, even when voicing my opinions, because I don't like being a jerk lol. I enjoy being able to have an intellectual discussion without it turning into personal attacks. However if I can tell someone is just looking for a fight I move on. Not worth my time!
Chloe wrote: "No justice, no vengeance. After some efforts to charge Gary with no results they opted to try and just move on "Now I'm asking... where the fuck is the law?
Amen to that... In some ways I understand why they had to move forward (my Grandparents), only way they could try to cope I guess. But I have no idea how that whole thing slipped through the cracks. It's basically open-shut. I still half expect to see him on one of those Court-TV unsolved mystery shows.
Sarge wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "So the dog analogy doesn't really hold for me."But you can see that others might not get over it like you did right?
Chloe wrote: "Amen to that... In some ways I understand why they had to move forward (my Grandparents), only way they could try to cope I guess. But I have no idea how that whole thing slipped through the crac..."
Just unbelievable...that almost makes me ill. Damn straight - CourtTV, Unsolved Mysteries, hell, Oprah. Whatever it takes.
Where did this happen?
You're an EMT...you have to know a cop or two.
Caitlin wrote: "Sarge wrote: "Caitlin wrote: "So the dog analogy doesn't really hold for me."But you can see that others might not get over it like you did right?"
I understand it can leave scars - I just don't get moving from the specific, to the general. It's a terrible thing, and frankly, makes me see red, but it's the actions of a single person, a known quantity.
It's not important that I understand, so I'll just shut up. It's a terrible thing, and Kat has my complete genuine sympathy.
Katinka wrote: "But in this case, in the quote from the Iron Duke, it seems like the woman is expressing how intense the sex is, i.e., it's too much, i can't take it (it feels too good, please make me come), and her lover wants to hear her agonizing desire, because it's such a turn on, and she's sobbing and moaning because it really is too much, imo she's feeling really good, but anyway, i haven't read the book so i can't really say. As long as the woman is pleased, if she doesn't think she was raped, then it usually isn't "Except after the scene was over she hit him with a knock out dart. She was not saying "don't stop" she was panicking and saying please stop this is too much. She was withdrawing consent. An intelligent and aware man would have taken a break, kissed her softly and told her it was ok. He did not do that, he forced her somewhere she was not comfortable going.
He made up for it afterwards, realizing the depth of his crime and really apologizing for it. I understood then that he truly cared for her, he was just an idiot. She forgave him and I admired that, I might not have been able to forgive that.
Understand that rape doesn't just leave emotional scars, the person who was raped suffers from PTSD. I was raped when I was 8, it isn't an easy thing and it is still something that affects how I make decisions as a 40 year old. I don't have as many nightmares anymore, thank god. My migraines have leveled out to one or two a year. I can objectively read / listen to rape accounts now without becoming a basket case ... although it hurts almost physically. I also understand logically that not all men are rapists, even though I was raped by a man, but I am more distrusting of males than I am of females, and even more distrusting of males who could overpower me. My husband has helped me heal considerably and I don't think he even understands how much. That is maybe because it is so hard to explain the depth of this trauma to anyone who has not experienced it. And my rapist was not violent.
Sarge wrote: "It's a little hard to not take "It is incomprehensible why people can be so mean [Who exactly was being mean?]. There are so many other ways people abuse and mistreat others. Sociopathy. It doesn't make sense. But guys can be assholes. Even when they're not raping someone else.". personally. Which was why I suggested the "slut" line - because it's the same sort of unreasoning generalization that leads to unpleasant behavior between genders."I can't explain another person's comment (though I do have a bad habit of trying). I thought it was rapists and those who minimize rape and treat it as a joke who are being mean and sociopathic. For example, people who use "rape" causally when joking as if it were something funny. I didn't think she meant anyone here.
There can be some unfortunate assumptions and generalizations about genders (and so many things). I tend to give people a little more leeway than you do when I know they are in pain. I've let plenty of male friends sob on my shoulder and tell me "Women are a bitches" when they were dumped (I assume I've morphed into some genderless asexual when I hit friend zone). Recently, I loaned an ex (who is a good friend) money because he'd signed on to a predatory loan and was going to lose his house. As he was visiting (with the check still in his pocket)he made some bitter "joke" (the kind no one laughs at, not even the speaker) about how "all women are gold diggers" because the pretty 20-somethings he dates now (we are in our 40s) are kind of fair weather friends when a man is broke. I let that slide, but I really wanted to tell him how many things were wrong with his unwarranted snipe. OK, the point of this story is not that I am a wimp, but that people (a) generalize when they shouldn't, especially when they are emotional and (b)lash out when they are hurting and angry.
You can correct them if you want to (*cough* waste of breath till they work through it *cough*) but do not take it personally. You will just make yourself feel bad and it's not good for your blood pressure. :)
We're cool.
@Sarge Wheeling, West Virginia, (used to live in PA) and it was more than 10 years ago now. Part of me always wanted to see if I could ever find out anything about him, (like hey he is in jail or dead!) but I never really dug around a lot. It's sad because on some respects it would be nice to have more closure, but on the other hand is it worth the mental distress and obsession that would undoubtedly come along with it? Also, it's funny because I see where you are coming from it Caitlin (and Samantha and others here) and also I can see it from Sarge's point about functioning. Again, I have never experienced that sort of tragedy, however in addition to what I posted here I have not had a very easy life. 15-17 was not good to me, and left me pretty screwed up mentally (putting it lightly). However I viewed it as a sink or swim situation. Either you just let yourself slip away completely, or you do whatever you can to try and pull yourself back together. I understand that everyone heals differently, and everyone copes with stress differently. Some in unhealthy ways, like heavy drinking, overeating, drugs, self-abuse, transferring that abuse to others or shutting themselves out from any form of help or relationship. (Self-sabotaging any chance at love or help from those who do care.)
It took me a long time just get get where I am now, and I still have really shitty days. If I didn't have my fiance and dad Ida been shit outta luck. Several times I needed meds, and I saw a psychiatrist for almost a year. But the difference is that even though it was hard and I had issues to work through, I was working on getting better. Like I said, everyone heals diferently, and noone can say that we know what anyone else is going through, because it's all relative and all unique to us. But I will say that I have a lot more respect and sympathy for those who are making an effort to work through it in a healthy way vs just losing themselves to it.
More people then we know are going through hard times. We just unfortunately found out that a family we are friends with has been facing abuse for years. The father (Really big guy, not like overweight but just big guy, very competitive/controlling/perfectionist type) was beating his wife, both sons and his two daughters. (Who are only 14 and 17, and would be completely helpless against him.) He seemed like he would be the type to put a lot of pressure on his kids, but we never would have known this was going on. They never even showed any sign of it. I cannot even imagine how frightening it must have been with him coming at them swinging. (He's out of the house now thank god...)
We never really know what people are facing, but everyone has something. Again, I think rape is one of the absolute worst things that could happen to anyone. But it isn't the only thing that can f people up mentally. But to me that isn't a reason not to try to fight back and try to get back to normal. (Relatively speaking.) Again, that doesn't mean a timeframe and it doesn't mean you should pretend nothing happened. (Which is a whole other discussion but more of these horrible disgusting people would be behind bars and getting it right back if the public was a bit more educated about what to do if it happens...) It just means you need to try to help yourself, however you need. Shutting out the world just makes it worse.
Tangled wrote: "I tend to give people a little more leeway than you do when I know they are in pain. I've let plenty of male friends sob on my shoulder and tell me "Women are a bitches" when they were dumped (I assume I've morphed into some genderless asexual when I hit friend zone). "I give a lot of leeway, particularly in the wake of something bad. But your friend was sobbing on your shoulder right after being dumped, right? How long after that would you keep accepting his anti-female remarks? Because as much as you want to be supportive, you're not helping him move past, and part of moving past moving on. He can't move on as long as he's still lashing out. If he's still doing it, sit that boy down, and tell him "Hey - numbnuts! I'm a woman, and I really don't appreciate that kind of talk." A slice of reality. Knock a little self-conciousness into him. Because grieving is a very self-centered behavior, and while it's important, it's only meant to help us deal with our feelings, and then as grownups, we come back to the world where everyone else has their own problems, and may need you to help with theirs now.
I've got work to do, a life to live, a world that needs to be cherished in all it's amazing miraculous moments - I don't have the right to wallow in the fact that my immediate family has been cut in half - I could, you know. Look at Coretta Scott King, a professional widow. However, I won't be defined by my losses, but by the way I live the rest of my life. And part of that is to kick myself in the ass for being so insensitive to Kat's issues.
It's not my job to fix her, nor, I'm sure, would it be welcome from me. So I will suffice to simply apologize and at the very least try to NOT make her problems worse.
[image error]
I'm sorry if I was insensitive, or appeared in any way dismissive of your pain, Kat.
Chloe wrote: "We never really know what people are facing, but everyone has something. Again, I think rape is one of the absolute worst things that could happen to anyone. But it isn't the only thing that can f people up mentally. But to me that isn't a reason not to try to fight back and try to get back to normal. (Relatively speaking.) Again, that doesn't mean a timeframe and it doesn't mean you should pretend nothing happened. (Which is a whole other discussion but more of these horrible disgusting people would be behind bars and getting it right back if the public was a bit more educated about what to do if it happens...) It just means you need to try to help yourself, however you need. Shutting out the world just makes it worse. "*waves* Welbutrin, and you? My personal way out of depression, often, is just opening my eyes. The world provides miracles in even the most mundane - you just have to learn to actually look.
This from my Facebook a few nights back:
"Today's miracle moment: I was on the porch, enjoying the passage of the day into night. Watching the climbing sparks of fireflies - here, over there, a few over there. Always single sparks, flashing in the gathering darkness. Then suddenly, there was a brief arc of two lights, ascribing the same path, less than an inch apart. While it may have been two rivals, locked in combat, I prefer to think that in their luminous game of Marco Polo, two lonely souls found each other. Love will out."
Sarge wrote: "sit that boy down, and tell him "Hey - numbnuts! I'm a woman, and I really don't appreciate that kind of talk." A slice of reality."Reality isn't really my bailiwick. I'm more into the rich fantasy life scene. I find escapism is so much better for me than getting deep into the RL drama.
I don't generally try to fix people--which is probably why I'm not the tough love poster child. The examples of how people generalize illogically when they are hurting didn't mean that such unintentional insults were a huge problem for me. Other than snarky mental commentary, I usually let it roll off my back. If it were an issue, I'd address it but more to speak my mind than to expect the other person to change.
I guess it comes down to personal values and what each of us thinks is really important. If my friends started making jokes about rape I would be upset and give them an earful. I guess my "speak out" triggers are just different than yours.
This just seemed totally relative to the topic, about the Sandusky Penn State thing.http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--j...
Just like the last bit here,
"A kid who once cowered in front of Jerry Sandusky was all grown up Monday afternoon, strong, fearless and unafraid of telling it all on good old Jer."
He was 13 when it started and is 28 now. It's good to see him getting his justice.
I'll leave this here for your consideration: http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-...
Seems this "rape makes you tough" trope has got to Lara Croft as well. The comments are pretty good, lots of quality rage going on along the lines we've had here. I particularly loved:
"I totally agree with the rape thing, it's a weak and borderline insensitive plot device. Rape isn't some radioactive spider that bites you and gives you superpowers." - Sammiidoogles
/facepalm on the Lara Croft stuff ... I am amazed at how often people misunderstand rape or attempted rape. It doesn't make you stronger, it makes you terrified.
Also thanks for the link on the Jerry Sandusky thing, good to see that at least one of the kids gets to give his "fuck you" to him.
Samantha wrote: "/facepalm on the Lara Croft stuff ... I am amazed at how often people misunderstand rape or attempted rape. It doesn't make you stronger, it makes you terrified.
Also thanks for the link on the ..."
Lara wasn't never one of my favorite game character but i stumbled onto some tie-in fiction that described her change, and it had nothing to do whith what they made of her [ according to the tie-in fiction, when she was in colledge, the plane she was on, crashed in tibet]
Caroline wrote: "I'll leave this here for your consideration: http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-...
Seems this "rape makes you tough" trope has got to Lara Croft as well. ..."
I loved the "radioactive spider" comment too. That said though... I'm likely about to step in it, but let me put this forward.
GIVEN that this is a game that hasn't been released yet, and all we have to go on is the brief bits the dev revealed in the interview and a trailer, are the following potentially possible:
1) Rape as an offering to the female market: given that we've heard that there is an almost 50% market of women gaming, might this action represent an acknowledgement by the industry, in introducing a threat in game storytelling that pushes a predominantly female "button", that they are targeting a female audience by giving them a threat predominately feared by women? A Trigger, regardless of whether you have or haven't been raped.
2)Avatar, not escort, or What's Bad for the Goose is Bad for the Gander: despite the dev's patronizing language of "you want to help her", most gamers, no matter the gender, no matter the gender of the CHARACTER being played, are by extension THE CHARACTER. The character is our avatar, our interface in the world. What hurts our avatar, hurts us, by proxy. Might this not then also translate into, even on a small level, lighting a candle in the minds of male gamers about rape=a bad thing for even me! Not a huge possibility - you'd think common decency, empathy, would do that. A possibility to consider.
I don't know - I haven't played it, I have no idea how it's actually used. It might well just be rape-as-charatcer-drama ala "Girlfriend in the Fridge", in which case I will likely toss it (the GAME...yeesh)out the window. I really don't know at this stage, and neither does anyone else, but the devs.
I will say there's a lot of "go away/come here" in the reactions to the announcement. Because the article isn't just about the rapeyness, but about a new direction for the character. I'll point out a few issues I have with the complaints.
1) "Not a confident badass fully aware of her sexuality. Nope, can't have that, might scare the boys are TARGET DEMO" - ummm how long have you been playing this, and did you do it in a cave...in Iceland? Laura Croft, with her hot pants, tank top, and blackeye-threatening rack, has had a reserved table at the Masturbatory Fantasy Cafe of the bulk of the gaming community for almost 2 decades. That very sexuality has had her decried by sectors of the feminist community for much of the same time as basically a sex toy. So you can't say an attempt to scale back the sexy is because she sacres men. If anything, I think the move is likely aimed at making her less offensive to their growing female audience. (the change btw - smaller boobs, and long pants).
2) Making her weak: of course she's weak, this is a reboot. Think of this as basically Batman/Green Arrow Begins. For those not in the know, Green Arrow was spoiled rich boy, Oliver Queen, marooned on a an island where he has to learn to survive both the perils of nature, as well as pirates. It takes time and an open flame to cook up a hero. Batman made all sorts of mistakes in stories recounting the road to becoming Batman.
You can't ask for character development, and then begrudge them giving her room to develop.
So yeah, the dev talking is a complete tool, but now having viewed the trailer, I'd be willing to give the game a try. While I'm not a huge Tomb Raider fan, it looks like it has some kind of narrative, and I am a slut for a good story.
Sarge wrote: "So you can't say an attempt to scale back the sexy is because she sacres men. "can you point in which way they tried to scale back the sexy? I might be a freak, but this Lara is definetely the sexiest character of the gaming history
Kamil wrote: "Sarge wrote: "So you can't say an attempt to scale back the sexy is because she sacres men. "can you point in which way they tried to scale back the sexy? I might be a freak, but this Lara is def..."
They scaled down her breasts and gave her long pants. Personally I think it makes her more appealing, more realistic, and as you say, more sexy.
Sarge wrote: "GIVEN that this is a game that hasn't been released yet, and all we have to go on is the brief bits the dev revealed in the interview and a trailer,"Agreed. I'm fairly neutral as I've only played TR games briefly a long time ago (my poor old PC just couldn't handle them at the time!) and would prefer to see the game itself before making a judgement, even though I do think the "rape makes you strong" blanket statement is total bullshit.
What really struck me about it was the ferocity of the comments, which followed a similar track to what we've been talking through here. Albeit we've been rather less...fierce and more able to explore the issues in a long, slow-moving thread. I thought it was interesting to see that similar reaction about a different media.
Caroline wrote: "What really struck me about it was the ferocity of the comments, which followed a similar track to what we've been talking through here. Albeit we've been rather less...fierce and more able to explore the issues in a long, slow-moving thread. I thought it was interesting to see that similar reaction about a different media."It's funny - I don't think I've heard as many WOMEN defend even the suggestion of rape, as I've seen here. Men, yes - just look at any legal debate on the issue, and you'll see men soft-soaping ACTUAL rape. So it was surprising to see the number of women who were willing to turn a blind eye on fictional rape, if it serves entertainment purposes.
Hmm. I feel no more desire to protect Laura Croft than I do to protect Xena Warrior Princess. Doesn't sound like it would be my favorite origin story. I always like tough people who choose to train or whatever because they want to be greater/stronger/better. If not, I'd rather they were indeed bitten by a radioactive spider. I can take a little bit of "survivor overcomes Bad Thing" in my heroes, but I've always thought Nietzsche's "Whatever doesn't kill you..." should be followed by, "...may hurt like hell, maim you for life,cause vomiting, impotence, nightmares, seizures, lifelong trauma or illogical fear of other people. Consult with your doctor before indulging in reckless behaviors that you think might make you stronger." I think it was interesting to read the comments though. Thanks.
Tangled wrote: "I always like tough people who choose to train or whatever because they want to be greater/stronger/better. If not, I'd rather they were indeed bitten by a radioactive spider." I am behind you on "protecting" - the guy's language was way off the mark. Who EVER wants to protect their avatar? If you want to protect them, never take them out of the starter zone, and learn to bake.
The "weak" I used was relative - it's pretty plain she was already on her way to adventure, in much the same way Bruce was already taking the initial steps to be Batman in Year One - it doesn't mean they're THE Laura Croft or THE Batman yet. The challenge proves greater than their initial confidence... so it takes growing into the challenge.
As to "Whatever doesn't kill you may hurt like hell, maim you for life,cause vomiting, impotence, nightmares, seizures, lifelong trauma or illogical fear of other people. Consult with your doctor before indulging in reckless behaviors that you think might make you stronger." it bears out nicely with "Reality isn't really my bailiwick. I'm more into the rich fantasy life scene. I find escapism is so much better for me than getting deep into the RL drama.". :) Which is really one of the reasons I suck at video games - if I have to work for that many hours to get a helmet, I'd rather go out to the garage, get dirty, and sculpt it in real life. The outside world is full of possibilities that can hurt you, but ultimately, the risk is worth it. Eat life with shining teeth, because it will most assuredly do it to you eventually.
I can see creating a story where Laure Croft is on her way to what she'll become, but I don't see how attempted gang rape should figure into it. Honestly, how would people feel if Batman were retconned so that instead of losing his parents (or in addition to being orphaned) a college aged Bruce was almost gang raped by bad guys? I don't think people would be talking about how now they want to help poor Bruce more and they feel protective of him. Furthermore I don't think game creators would put a male avatar in such a situation. Well, maybe in Japan, but he'd be a very pretty avatar and the attacker would have tentacles. As for reality, I still say it is for people who can't handle fantasy--but I do invite real life to "eat me" if it objects to my philosophy. That goes double for Nietzsche, if his zombiefied corpse can make it out of the grave.
Vaginal Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Assassin's Honor (other topics)Speak (other topics)
I see what you did there - using rape (with an inanimate object) as a punishment for people who promote/trivialise rape. Good one.