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How has the introduction of romance affected the fantasy genre?
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Eyehavenofilter
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May 31, 2012 07:04PM
I love to stir things up!
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Ada-Lee wrote: "I love to stir things up!"as I said, I like some romance, but I like it subtle... for that nice sweet romance I watch a movie... but subtle one that has to fight to survive, thats one I like to see... I dont know what kind of clever person said it, but it was sth in the vein of like the best of relationships, be it friendship or actual couples, are forged in some kind of battle
or paraphrasing Maester Aemon from ASOIAF, it is easy to make words of love flow, when there is no danger to it, when everything is fine, but only real and true love can survive the tough battles that life hurls its way :)
hell, I even liked those not happy ending romances in ASOIAF (I know there were few) or in Malazan books (the nicest scenes being Crokus and Apsalar in GotM, or Cutter and Felisin the Younger, but of course so far the most powerful one was Korlat and Whiskeyjack, that one, despite the bitter end, was the most beautiful) :P
and of course Tolkien's couples - Beren willing to go to the mouth of hell to get Luthien's hand, the sweet and joyful Sam and Rose, but especially Aragorn and Arwen and what Arwen told him :)
those are few examples of romances that I digged - because they were incorporated into the whole very well, without being too much sugar - too much sugar (if you take it literally) can make ppl puke or just leave a damn bitter aftertaste (like when you pop too much chocolate and dont drink water afterwards)... I dont think I would like a fantasy with more romance than fantasy - in the end, I am reading fantasy because of the richness of ideas in it, not to get a Danielle Steel novel in fantasy setting, right :D?
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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Ada-Lee wrote: "Without Romance we wouldn't be here,But seriously.... Folks.... Romance is awesome in all genres!.... It adds spice,
tension, goals, heat, fun, a reason for all sorts of things, like oh I dunno....."
To give it back to you in a realistic fashion, the answer is not so cut and dried. Some people might have gotten here through one-night stands, LOL. Not much romance in those, but a lot of lust. Others may have been conceived without the "sanctity" of marriage. Besides which, romance is a fairly new and western concept if we're speaking of the whole of human history.
Yes, romance is awesome and I do love it when done well. When I care about why these two (or more) people are forming a bond, when the world they share makes me want to be there with them. The same holds for fantasy as well.
I think we are getting away from the issue a touch here.Romance being valid isn't an issue, of course it is. How it affects the fantasy genre is the point of this topic.
As someone mentioned earlier, I don't really have an issue with romance in fantasy where it fits organically with the story. Indeed if the spread of romance makes us consider the characters more closely then that really can't ever be a bad thing. What I and others no doubt object to is the forced, contrived romances that are starting to appear on the scene.
@ Vixenne, I apologize if I misunderstood your post.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
(last edited Jun 18, 2012 02:17PM)
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Traci wrote: "@ Vixenne, I apologize if I misunderstood your post."No problem.
It seems to me that romance can be a powerful part of any heroic struggle, fantastic or realistic. In Lord of the Rings, love motivates Eowyn and Arwen to great deeds. In the Song of Roland, it's love for Roland's sister that keeps Olivier from giving up when they are outnumbered. As love is a part of life, it is often a part of our dearest personal fantasies and fits well in a character's personality as well.
Barbm1020 wrote: "It seems to me that romance can be a powerful part of any heroic struggle, fantastic or realistic. In Lord of the Rings, love motivates Eowyn and Arwen to great deeds. In the Song of Roland, it's..."Agreed.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
(last edited Jun 19, 2012 02:24PM)
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Barbm1020 wrote: "It seems to me that romance can be a powerful part of any heroic struggle, fantastic or realistic. In Lord of the Rings, love motivates Eowyn and Arwen to great deeds. In the Song of Roland, it's..."What motivates Eowyn isn't love. It's her desire to prove that she's not just some weak woman who needs protecting. She wants to fight to protect her people just as her brother, Eomer does. Her quest is for equality. I will say that if it were up to me, I'd have paired Aragorn with Eowyn rather than with Arwen (who was pretty weak to me in the books when I first read them as a girl). Arwen's "great deed" (bookwise) is that she gives up her immortality to remain with Aragorn.
The problem I see in a lot of so-called "romantic fantasy" is that the love relationship lacks any true depth. The characters are thrown together willy-nilly and as a reader I'm just supposed to accept these characters being in love though their actions may scream something entirely different. It's like trying to fit the proverbial square peg into a round hole.
Somehow I missed the updated for this thread. O_OI would say this: Romance is what it is. A relationship between two people that can be sexual in nature. It is...unlikely that humans will be together in any grouping for any real length of time without some type of "romance" taking place.
It's biology.
On the other hand...some people are better at writing romance than others.
There are romance tropes that romance readers are sick to death of... we term it "insta-love/lust." It's when two characters have to get together...it's their faaaaaate. It's crap and poor storytelling and lazy writing 99% of the time.
That's probably what is being alluded to when Jon mentions the effect of romance. Sad thing, it's not the romance that's the problem...it's the writing.
But I'd like to point out that most fantasy already had romance in it. From day 1. Cause it's biology.
The Belgariad, Vol. 1 has several romantic relationships in it.
Witch World - One of my favorite series, ever. Most of the story arcs in this series feature a romantic relationship.
The Warded Man - there are at least two romantic relationships here.
The Last Herald-Mage - There are two very romantic relationships in this series...
...as you can see I could go on and on. It's always been there.
I think that the...introduction of digital books to the mainstream audience and the accelerated push to get books from the author into reader's hot little hands have greatly impacted books.
I feel that now we often pay for what is essentially a decent 1st draft. None of the lumps are smoothed out anymore...thus clunky relationships.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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MrsJoseph wrote: "There are romance tropes that romance readers are sick to death of... we term it "insta-love/lust." It's when two characters have to get together...it's their faaaaaate. It's crap and poor storytelling and lazy writing 99% of the time..."Absolutely spot on MrsJoseph!
Agreed. Bad writing will spoil anything, as it does in many romance novels, with or without any fantasy in them.
I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier...maybe. But I have romance readers in my family and they actually complain the other way. That the introduction of fantasy into romance has ruined their genre. My mom won't read anything with even a hint of magic or supernatural in it but that's mostly what's mainstream now. Just thought the other side of this discussion was interesting too.
Traci wrote: "I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier...maybe. But I have romance readers in my family and they actually complain the other way. That the introduction of fantasy into romance has ruined their ge..."You know, that's a great point. I read both so to see the two together never bother me (except, you know, poor writing and overuse of bad tropes). I never thought about the romance readers that are not into fantasy or SF. O_o
Traci wrote: "I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier...maybe. But I have romance readers in my family and they actually complain the other way. That the introduction of fantasy into romance has ruined their ge..."I can see their point. Like MrsJ, I'm a romance reader as well as fantasy reader, but I understand people who like romances but dislike vampires and sorcery.
I think that paranormal romance is actually a separate genre, not my favorite, I must admit. Some people here have already mentioned it. I read romance and fantasy but very rarely paranormal romance. I dislike vampires either, most of the time. On the other hand, the inclusion of a love story in a fantasy novel is different. It enriches the story and makes the protagonists more complex ... if done well.
Hi allI have been reading fantasy for decades and agree that it often includes relationships.
However since Twilight and similar books (which I dont dislike) and ereaders ( also like) there seems to have been a push for romance/fantasy/urban/paranormal to go together. Some do and some clearly dont work.
What annoys me is when I go into book shops and go to the fantasy section and cant find any decent adult fantasy only young adult paranormal love stuff. If I want to read that then I want to go to the section in the shop that has that.
Dont get me wrong I like and read all genres but lets please keep original adult fantasy in its own section - please. thanks
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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I would say that many romance readers tend to be pretty hidebound when it comes to what they will/will not accept in their stories. I've always been a fantasy reader first so my threshold is quite high compared to someone who just reads romance. A great example of that is the first Kushiel trilogy. One of the biggest complaints I saw from some romance readers was the fact that Phaedre was a courtesan. If you check out threads for books featuring courtesans, most romance readers don't like them. They don't mind man-sluts (aka rakes), but a woman who makes a living (whether by choice or by fate) is a character they dislike. And in this case, Phaedre's profession as a courtesan had more to do with her faith (hope I'm not spoiling too much for those who haven't read the series).These readers expected her to give up her profession once Joscelin entered the picture. The fact that she didn't and he learned to accept who she was completely went over their heads. I saw the same issues come up with Anne Bishop's Twilight's Dawn. When a series of books is categorized as "dark fantasy", it means exactly what it says. There might be romantic elements in this genre, but there's also darker themes as well.
Yeah, it is hard to find an adult fantasy that doesn't include YA angst, etc now. Of course, I blame publishers...and the fact that publishers don't consider readers their customers...they consider retailers their customers and it shows.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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MrsJoseph wrote: "Yeah, it is hard to find an adult fantasy that doesn't include YA angst, etc now. Of course, I blame publishers...and the fact that publishers don't consider readers their customers...they consi..."
The industry is cyclical, which means one genre will end up dominating for a while. Publishers think this is a great idea, but it's actually a bad one. First there's oversaturation of the market. Practically every writer out there seems to be jumping on the paranormal bandwagon to the point that I'm just done with anything vampire, shifter, werewolf, etc. related. I've heard complaints from fellow romance readers who still like PNR but want to see other subgenres like westerns, scottish and romance stories set in other countries outside of England and the U.S. Second, it's pretty easy to tell when an author loves what they write, and those who are just in it because the PNR genre is the "hot" thing right now. There are some authors who have no interest in writing about vampires, and yet that's what their agent and/or publisher has them doing. Of course because of this oversaturation, the quality of the stories has suffered ten-fold.
Like Bev said, going to the fantasy section of the bookstore (or even browsing through it on my Nook) is an exercise in perseverance, LOL.
Mrs Joseph you could be right. Lots of people who are reading fantasy for the first time are young and their expectations may be different from mine ( old timer)!Vixene - loved the Kushiel series when it was new but books like it are being copied today with less fantasy and more rumpy pumpy. Very sad.
Why cant we have a fantasy section or whatever and then a romantic ( emphasis on the romance) section?
Maybe its an author issue too? far too many authors churning out the same stuff at the minute.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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What made the Kushiel series work was the detailed world-building. Phaedre's profession was such an indelible part of Terre d' Ange society that it felt believable rather than just something thrown in for the jollies, LOL. Most paranormal romance is less reliant upon world-building since most are in contemporary settings,so readers have an easy grasp on places like St. Louis or New Orleans. Though they also ignore the fact that world-building isn't just about making up a world, but also including aspects like culture, religion, technology, etc. That stuff tends to be ignored for the most part in favor of getting to the romance.
Vixenne wrote: "I would say that many romance readers tend to be pretty hidebound when it comes to what they will/will not accept in their stories. I've always been a fantasy reader first so my threshold is quite..."I've never considered the Kushiel series to be romance at all. I feel sad all those romance readers grabbed it and got the shock of their lives, lol.
The Kushiel series is true fantasy that has sex as part of the cultural backdrop.Most of the stuff being put out there now has no real basis in the realms of fantasy except for paranormal creatures or some vague superhero type power. They used to go in the horror section or comics departments.
Surely to be worthy of the fantasy genre there needs to be a tangible element of fantasy ie magic, world building,etc? Not just two teenagers falling for each other in a dystopian future or a world full of vampires?
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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MrsJoseph wrote: "I've never considered the Kushiel series to be romance at all. I feel sad all those romance readers grabbed it and got the shock of their lives, lol..."It was pretty obvious to me when I picked up the first book that it wasn't anything BUT fantasy. I mean if the dust jacket blurb didn't give it away, I have no idea what else would have.
Bev wrote: "The Kushiel series is true fantasy that has sex as part of the cultural backdrop.Most of the stuff being put out there now has no real basis in the realms of fantasy except for paranormal creatu..."
Sad to day...sex and vampires/paranormal rule the day right now. It doesn't matter what the reader(s) want.
With Twilight/50SG and The Hunger Games becoming best sellers... I've read that a lot of publishing houses are looking to create or plump up their movie divisions. BPHs are now asking for movie rights in addition to publishing (print & digital). The reason: everyone wants to make the next big movie and publishers are now looking to make them "in house." So I think the trend is not just PNR but PNR that could be turned into a movie.
I want to bet that the large scale trend for PNR masquerading as fantasy will continue until people get sick and tired of it and no one buys hardly any of it.
Bev wrote: "... Surely to be worthy of the fantasy genre there needs to be a tangible element of fantasy ie magic, world building,etc? Not just two teenagers falling for each other in a dystopian future or a world full of vampires? ..."Bev, how right you're. But I don't know about the separation of the genre into more sections. Right now, fantasy and sci fi are separate, so you look for Bujold or Tanya Huff in 2 separate sections. It's frustrating sometimes, when your favorite author writes in several genres. The same goes for Patricia Briggs: both traditional fantasy and paranormal.
About Kushiel - there is another interesting series about a 'courtesan' of a sort, Mercedes Lackey's Gryphon series. Its hero is not exactly a courtesan, but his profession includes sex for money and is necessary for the world he lives in. It's probably my favorite of the Lackey's series. There is a strong love story there too, very well done, but nobody called it romance. It was definitely a fantasy with romantic elements.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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Olga wrote: "About Kushiel - there is another interesting series about a 'courtesan' of a sort, Mercedes Lackey's Gryphon series. Its hero is not exactly a courtesan, but his profession includes sex for money a..."Oh you mean Amberdrake, the kestra'chern! I loved him too. I think he was like a masseuse/courtesan. Be that as it may, you're right about those books not being viewed as a romance.
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
(last edited Jun 20, 2012 02:23PM)
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Speaking of the dratted 50 Shades, there are now at least two more books being marketed as the "next 50 Shades". Just. No.Then the big New York publishing industry wonders why people are becoming more enamored of e-books and smmaller publishers. They just keep releasing dreck. Much like the music industry over here.
Vixenne wrote: "Oh you mean Amberdrake, the kestra'chern! I loved him too. I think he was like a masseuse/courtesan. Be that as it may, you're right about those books not being viewed as a romance. "I'm thinking of rereading them. Lately, whenever I pick up a new fantasy book, I rarely finish: nothing appeals to me. Maybe an old favorite would pull me out of the funk. :(
I did like Amberdrake but my favorites are Darkwind and Vanyel. *sigh* I feel a Mercedes Lackey re-read coming on...
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
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If we're talking about males, Vanyel and Amberdrake were definitely my faves. If we're talking about males, NO ONE beats Tarma and Kethry!
Vixenne wrote: "If we're talking about males, Vanyel and Amberdrake were definitely my faves. If we're talking about males, NO ONE beats Tarma and Kethry!"I really like Kerowyn...but I love Tarma slightly more than Kethry.
Perhaps we should do a buddy read on Lackey. I haven't re-read her for a long time. Although I have to check what is available at our library. I don't own her books anymore.
Olga wrote: "I don't own her books anymore."O_o
Well, I had to downsize, when my kids moved out, so many books had to go, alas. I still have 4+ bookcases left.
Whenever I downsize my books it never fails, I want one of the books I got rid of. I can't even tell you how many times I've had to replace the GRRM books. I finally bought some on my nook. The first and last one. Have to go back and get the others.
I've been on GoodReads for a few months but I'm still unclear whenever people use these abbreviations. I need a list of them.GRRM - ?
Perhaps we can have a separate thread for a list of abbreviations?
;)
Olga wrote: "I've been on GoodReads for a few months but I'm still unclear whenever people use these abbreviations. I need a list of them.GRRM - ?
Perhaps we can have a separate thread for a list of abbreviati..."
George R.R. Martin
Olga wrote: "I've been on GoodReads for a few months but I'm still unclear whenever people use these abbreviations. I need a list of them.GRRM - ?
Perhaps we can have a separate thread for a list of abbreviati..."
Sorry. =)
A Game of Thrones, etc. I have no idea how many times I've bought that book.
I like when romance isn't the center of the story. It can be a cute component, or even important to the tale. But I hatehatehate when important plot threads center around it. It's one part of life. It should be included if the world is going to be realistic, but it shouldn't be overbearing.I also love it when the romance is dependable. It might go through trials and rough patches, but it's nice to get attached to a ship and know through thick or thin, it'll keep going. I thought Sanderson struck a good balance in the Mistborn trilogy. Vin and Elend had their struggles but they grew on their own as well as within their relationship. When the author could have dragged out a complicated love triangle, he chose not to. The political struggles were far more important to focus on, and I appreciated that.
V wrote: "I also love it when the romance is dependable. It might go through trials and rough patches, but it's nice to get attached to a ship and know through thick or thin, it'll keep going...."I thought Kate Elliott's Crown of Stars series did a good job of this. There were lots of trials for the lovers who somehow seemed to get through it.
And another is of course, Janny Wurt's magnus opus which includes a variety of relationships from dysfunctional to soul-mates.
I agree with others that romance has been, and likely always will be, a part of fantasy. That being said, I do believe that the introduction of Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy have definitely hurt the genre. On the upside, books like Twilight and The Hunger Games definitely bring readers to the genre. (But, then, so did Harry Potter. Few would argue with that one.) On the down side, it seems that publishers get in their heads that this is the only thing that sells. Thus, when one goes into the book store, it is all one can find on the shelves. It limits the availability of other books. (I find it very hard to find the beginning of any other series available for other than order.)
This is a problem FOR ME because I do not like that genre. I do not like Urban Fantasy. I read to escape - and Urban Fantasy does not escape far enough for me. I do, however, also read for happy endings. I have enough misery and angst in life, do not want it in my escape. Unfortunately, PNR and UF usually fill that goal. And, it seems to me, other authors (and readers) feel that if they have a happy ending, it somehow belittles their work.
What I do REALLY want is relationships. Romantic or otherwise. Do not desire sex, thank you very much. I enjoy the McCaffrey books because of the dragons, they Riyria books because of the friendship, and the Shearin books because of the family. Give me good, rock solid relationships, where people genuinely care and look after one another, and you will hook me every time.
Sonja wrote: "I agree with others that romance has been, and likely always will be, a part of fantasy. That being said, I do believe that the introduction of Paranormal Romance and Urban Fantasy have definitely ..."Have you tried Mercedes Lackey? She writes great relationships (IMO).
Some good traditional fantasy stuff being put down here yet when it comes to suggestions for group reads, why do people always seem to suggest either YA/vampire/dystopian/cyberpunk fantasy (et al).No one suggests reading the likes of Mercedes Lackey, Kate Elliot or janny Wurts anymore. Are they sooooo passee????
Bev wrote: "No one suggests reading the likes of Mercedes Lackey, Kate Elliot or janny Wurts anymore. Are they sooooo passee???? "In my experience, most readers ignore my suggestions of Mercedes Lackey and Andre Norton. I assume its because they just don't want that type of fantasy.
I am sure you are right MrsJoseph. I wonder why? Is it an age thing do you think or something else?I love all types of fiction including fantasy of all types but it seems that others are not as wide ranging in their tastes. They may well be missing a trick not sampling fantasy from different times. :)
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The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears
(last edited Jun 21, 2012 02:39PM)
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Bev wrote: "Some good traditional fantasy stuff being put down here yet when it comes to suggestions for group reads, why do people always seem to suggest either YA/vampire/dystopian/cyberpunk fantasy (et al)...."Because most readers aren't familiiar with these authors, and the more PNR/Urban Fantasy continues to muddy the waters, the less likely these authors will ever be discovered. Not to mention, the relationships are a part of the overall narrative, and PNR/Urban Fantasy readers want the relationship front and center.
What passes for "urban fantasy" these days is a joke and nowhere near the caliber of greats like Charles De Lint, Emma Bull, Terri Windling and Guy Gavriel Kay.
Ah I am reminiscing now. Must be getting old (ha!)Just out of interest are you under or over 30?
Vixenne wrote: "Because most readers aren't familiiar with these authors, and the more PNR/Urban Fantasy continues to muddy the waters, the less likely these authors will ever be discovered. Not to mention, the relationships are a part of the overall narrative, and PNR/Urban Fantasy readers want the relationship front and center.What passes for "urban fantasy" these days is a joke and nowhere near the caliber of greats like Charles De Lint, Emma Bull, Terri Windling and Guy Gavriel Kay. "
I can agree. Its so funny to me that Harry Potter did so well considering that Mercedes Lackey had been writing "magic school" stories since the early 80's.
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Stardust (other topics)Belgarath the Sorcerer (other topics)
Swordspoint (other topics)
The Elvenbane (other topics)
The Curse of the Mistwraith (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Samuel R. Delany (other topics)Andre Norton (other topics)
Kate Elliott (other topics)
