The Sword and Laser discussion
This topic is about
Hyperion
2012 Reads
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Hyp: Prologue - Sci-Fi Language
I actually had this exact thought as I started Hyperion (I'm only 8% through so far). I knew that I wasn't getting the language, but I figured as I read more it would become more evident. It did even with the small portion I have read so far. Especially for commonly used terms. There is still some language I'm adjusting to, but I figure I will read a little more and see. If I'm still lost, I will re-read the section that is still confusing to me.
Patrick Rothfuss did a blog about this sort of thing, first time writers doing a big info dump at the beginning of their book.Tolkien did it too.
I find it a bit off putting too. Though I'm not reading Hyperion so I can't say for this one. :P
http://blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012/...
I absolutely agree that too much expected prior knowledge turns people off to the genre. I've got a lot of friends who won't even touch fantasy because it's too much 'reading about who's the son of who that's the son of someone else' rather than just calling him "Bob the Hero".I will also toss out there that finding the sweet spot is tricky. Fans of space sci fi will recognize some tropes, but not everyone will. You want a reader to go "okay I can see what's going on/ I know how the characters are feeling" but you don't want them to pausing and re-reading the first chapter just to feel comfortable enough to read on.
I thought it was just me!!! As a relative newb to the genre, the onslaught of jargon can certainly be overwhelming, and has probably kept me from delving into other SciFi/Fantasy titles in the past.
As for Hyperion, I was a little overwhelmed by the first few pages, but I've decided to just dig in and let it wash over me. So far I think there's enough context to follow along without necessarily needing to understand every unfamiliar word...although I'm fighting against every instinct I've got to not look up each word I don't recognize. :)
The weird language in science fiction (and some fantasy) books is why I always feel like I need to devote extra time to start some books. I like to have at least an hour when I'm first starting a book, to allow myself time to understand the language and really get "into" the book, to let it suck me in. After that, I don't mind reading in short bursts..but if I start and only read 3 pages, and then 3 days later read 3 pages...it can be tough to get past that "difficult" opening.
I don't mind scientific jargon but I do mind having to know a complex genealogy of fantasy characters. If I need to have read five other novels first there should at least be a warning somewhere.
Totally agree. I actually was thinking the same thing as I read the first few pages of this. This sort of thing is a huge barrier for me. I start reading and I can feel my mind start to cloud up and my eyes glaze over.
I also like to learn words contextually. This book however, seems to require a specific vocabulary that I don't posess yet. When I was a teenager this was a huge turnoff. That being said I'm enjoying taking my time and looking up words I'm not aquainted with like gymnosperms- a plant that has seeds unprotected by fruit.
I've interrupted (again) my reading of Steve Erikson's "Malazan" series to participate in this reading. And let me tell you, Hyperion is a piece of cake after what I have to go through with those books as far as trying to figure out context. Its quite refreshing actually.
After reading sci-fi and fantasy for so many years I feel the use of jargon isn't that much of a problem with a few exceptions. There have been a couple of books, namely book 1 of the Malazan series by Steven Erikson where there were 10 or more made up words in the first few pages with no explanation and I just had to put the book down. I feel the success use the of Jargon is dependent on how it is introduced. If it is well explained, or better yet, when it is used in a context where the meaning is obvious without an explicit explanation, it adds so much to a story.
Several years ago when I started getting into scifi (prior to that the only scifi books I had been exposed to was Star Wars) I went out and picked up "Matter" by Iain M. Banks. Within the first 40-50 pages I was getting pretty lost with all the names and jargon he used and had to keep flipping to the back of the book to reference the glossary of terms and historical events. It really turned me off so much so that I put it down and haven't finished it yet (I plan on reading all his Culture novels in order so I will get to it eventually!). That probably shouldn't have been the book to kick off my non Star Wars scifi reading but it helped me to realize that I shouldn't try as hard to understand every foreign term I encounter and instead just sit back and try to enjoy the story and hopefully pick up the terms as I go.
I will however occasionally google terms such as Treeship from "Hyperion" to see if there is any fan art that will help me picture the objects or cities in the story.
Andrew wrote: "Several years ago when I started getting into scifi (prior to that the only scifi books I had been exposed to was Star Wars) I went out and picked up "Matter" by Iain M. Banks. Within the first 40-..If you are going to read Iain M Banks, who is an excellent sci fi writer, can I suggest his earlier stuff, I think it's much better. So go for 'Consider Phelbas' or 'Look to Windward' which is a kind of sequel, or even 'Against a Dark Background'. Personally I think Banks has gone off the boil in terms of SF in recent years.
I think you've all touched a nerve here. I'm looking at George Martin's Fire and Ice series and thinking about starting that, but it's the pages of characters and houses that put me off. Maybe it's not so bad once you're started.I think some authors have gone in for a bit of one-upmanship where the author and the story are rated not on the quality of the story itself but the complexity of the world in which it's set. Let's get back to good old storytelling!
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Since I absolutely loved Anathem and found it easy to read then I guess for me the answer is a resounding no. It doesn't bother me at all I just blast through it without thinking about it much.I love it when authors make up new terms, but ones based on existing words or new extensions of latin or greek. Most of the time I can figure out the meaning without having to Google it or have it explained just from it's juxtaposition to other words.
Of course, when they totally make up stuff without rhyme or reason then I think we all get lost sometimes.
David wrote: "I've interrupted (again) my reading of Steve Erikson's "Malazan" series to participate in this reading. And let me tell you, Hyperion is a piece of cake after what I have to go through with those b..."LOL, glad I'm not the only one. I was so confused by the jargon and huge cast of characters the first time I read Gardens of the Moon that I immediately read it again so I could understand it this time. It was amazing how much more sense it made the 2nd time around. Unfortunately I waited a few years before trying the 2nd Malazan book and now I'm all confused again.
Rik - Totally understand about losing the plot if taking a break. But after 7 books in I need a break and Hyperion is like a breath of fresh air (even if its old fresh air). Hyperion's like how a good story teller tells a good story, while Malazan is like how a smart person tells a good story and it can be a chore.Andrew - I would totally go for the GRRM books. Yeah, there's lots of stuff going on but the author just puts his hooks in you and you'll be grasping for the next book in the series before you finish the first.
Hyperion (so far) is like classic science fiction with spaceships and intergalactic stuff and technology and it has the Shrike - how do you beat that!
So Hyperion is the first long sci-fi novel that I read, and it really was hard for me to get past those first pages of new terms, reading the word "gymnosperms" actually made me happy: since I have a biological sciences backgruond. But at 10% in the book I think I just got in pace with the book.Andrew - About George R.R. Martin 's books I also used the strategy to not minding a lot about remembering all the names/houses/relationships of the characters, after a time they just start getting in place and by half of the book I felt like an expert in the story, and without effort you start seeing how some minimal details affect the fate of a character in the other side of the world.
So I agree that the first pages of confusion are a very little price and you are getting a very rich story
I guess there are broadly 2 ways to go as a writer - either fill the first few chapters with a ton of explanation and exposition that often will feel really clunky, ie why would a character go into detail in thinking/talking/explaining about something that the people in THAT time/setting would see as very normal.Or, to introduce terms and concepts in context but without immediate exposition/explanation and let the reader gradually figure them out
I'm a much bigger fan of the latter, but you almost need to trust the author that it will make sense later.. I think Hyperion definitely falls into this category
I generally prefer contextual introduction that gradually spans the entire work to an info dump in the prologue/first chapter.I don't mind not understanding some things as long as they aren't vital to the plot (and if they are, they usually get explained at a later time anyway). As for Hyperion, there are some things I'm guessing at at the moment, but the style leaves me in no doubt that it'll become clear as I continue reading. I love that moment when everything clicks into place; it makes me appreciate the author more if they can manage it in such a way that I'm genuinely surprised that it didn't occur to me before.
Generally, I like to just plow through the first few chapters not bothered with not understanding some things. It all becones clear later on anyway.
Andrew wrote: "If you are going to read Iain M Banks, who is an excellent sci fi writer, can I suggest his earlier stuff, I think it's much better. So go for 'Consider Phelbas' or 'Look to Windward' which is a kind of sequel, or even 'Against a Dark Background'. Personally I think Banks has gone off the boil in terms of SF in recent years."Thanks for the tip! I have actually already read "Consider Phlebas" and "Player of Games" and have enjoyed both of them. Within the near future I plan on reading "Use of Weapons" which I hear is really good.
Is this where eReaders might start to really shine? One option a writer has with the electronic medium is to create seamless sliding between source material and vocabulary and the text itself. If the reader hits a word that's 'new', then they can either drive on and figure it out later, or they can with key press pop-up a definition. I'd like to see better support for "tool tips" on the Kindle platform but I ~think~ other formats (like PDF) support that kind of thing.
So which words threw you? Maybe Nick can write a FAQ :p I remember only being thrown by the different type of ships, dropship, etc.
Bruise-black clouds silhouetted a forest of giant gymnosperms while stratocumulus towered nine kilometers high in a violent sky.I hit a low point after that sentence, but I made myself believe the Consul is just a bit of a pompous ass and it gets better - and it really does!
Ok, that's more Dan Simmons being a literary writer than a scifi writer.
Scifi has suffered from the literary types becoming dominant. It was more fun when there was more science and less fi.As for fantasy, Tolkien is better in movies than book form and even the movies seem a bit drawn out after a time. A "new" world does not need maps and long histories and detailed costuming - just a reader with some imagination to fill in the holes. Fantasy as escapism does not have faith in the reader's abilities to imagine.
Julia wrote: "Bruise-black clouds silhouetted a forest of giant gymnosperms while stratocumulus towered nine kilometers high in a violent sky.I hit a low point after that sentence, but I made myself believe th..."
Oh God, that is really dreadful even when you know what all the words mean. ROTFL.
I like the trees, they are all the right height in Michigan - a paraphrase of Romney at the opposite extreme.
Anne wrote: "Scifi has suffered from the literary types becoming dominant. It was more fun when there was more science and less fi..."You probably won't like The Poet's chapter.
I have been a fantasy reader, but have avoided scifi in books because of my fear that not understanding the jargon is going to greatly hinder my ability to understand what the heck is going on. I stick to watching scifi on television because I feel it is easier.When I read the prologue to Hyperion, my immediate thought was "Here we go... this is why I don't read scifi." I decided to hunker down and try it anyway. I have gotten through The Father's chapter (so not very far) and I'm able to follow it easily... the vignette itself wasn't that jargon heavy at all. We'll see how I do as the story progresses.
Tamahome wrote: "Ok, that's more Dan Simmons being a literary writer than a scifi writer."That's a good point - any novel generally takes some getting used to. Even terms like Hegemony, which aren't technical, come up without much context, but such a thing can spring up in any genre. Sci-fi just adds another layer, to the point that sometimes I'm unaware of what I'm supposed to know (gymnosperm) and what I'm not (fatline).
aldenoneil wrote: "Tamahome wrote: "Ok, that's more Dan Simmons being a literary writer than a scifi writer."That's a good point - any novel generally takes some getting used to. Even terms like Hegemony, which are..."
It seems like Simmons, is expecting alot from the reader in terms of vocabulary. Although it's a different experience than most contemporary fiction, it has been a rewarding experience so far.
Being dyslexic I have already spent a lot of time looking up words, which has been help tons by now having a kindle. New words with no context don't really phase me I just assume all will be explained later and keep reading.
Context is everything when it comes to unknown terms. Simmons handles it well. I wasn't familiar with "fuege," but it was immediately understood in the prologue.I think using the right word is important. I dislike when authors use the archaic or less-common word just for pretentiouus reasons. I definitely don't feel that way with this novel.
"What is your reaction when starting out and seeing so much new nomenclature? Do you like being thrown in with little context? What's your approach? Do you blast through and hope you'll pick it up later, re-read the beginning, or stop at each new term and try to reason through it?"This was a huge problem for me. One reason I usually put down a book and don't pick it up. Without understanding what is happening at the begining of the book it is hard for me to form a picture in my mind. Without that picture I see a void and just have no interest in what I am trying to read, put it down and never pick it up again.
For this book I got the audio book. I found that even though it was very descriptive I became confused and slightly uninterested. What really kept me going was not having to stare at the words and having it forced on me while I drove. Throughout the book I became confused in spots but after I looked some of the information up online I started to become engrossed in the book and still am!
Zac wrote: "What really kept me going was not having to sare at the words and having it forced on me while I drove."This has been helping me get through The Baroque Cycle. Since I'm not hung up on looking up every historical reference or character, I can enjoy the story. It's likely I'd miss just as much by reading the text, but this way I'm not constantly re-reading passages. Since I'm enjoying the books, I'll likely come back someday for a second listen.
Pretty neat site, 'TechNovelGy', has some definitions for Hyperion tech:http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/AuthorS...
I find that skimming over the sci-fi jargon (or genealogy and geography if reading fantasy) doesn't do any harm. A good author will contextually reintroduce that stuff as you go through the book and it doesn't usually prevent you from following the story. If it's too much (and I think many would argue that the beginning of Hyperion has too much, especially the whole Meina Gladstone holo scene) my eyes just skim right over the jargon. I don't feel any urge to understand or remember any of it at that point. I do think that skimming jargon only works if you are familiar with the genre though. Probably not so for new readers. It would probably be overwhelming and unsettling.
I primarily read fantasy, so I was a bit wary about the technobabble. I've tried sci-fi years ago and found it confusing. But now I've watched a lot more sci-fi tv such as Battlestar Galactica and Dr Who, and it actually helps in picturing things like faster than light travel.
Jules wrote: "Bruise-black clouds silhouetted a forest of giant gymnosperms while stratocumulus towered nine kilometers high in a violent sky.I hit a low point after that sentence, but I made myself believe th..."
I nearly put it down there and then at that point!
It's not that the vocab is a problem, just that I can't abide it when writers get into the "four hundred words where four would do" mindset for the whole damn book. You don't always want to get down to brass tacks ("The sky was black and there were big-ass trees") in an opener, you want it to be atmospheric...but too far and you risk putting off your reader because you come across as pretentious.
It has got better into chapter one, I'm finding. Though I suspect if my OH wasn't already reading it I may well have put it down; it's so rare we read the same book I'm willing to give it more of a chance for his sake.
Have you considered that the author intended for it to have a high entry barrier? Maybe he wants you to stop and think about what he's saying instead of plowing through the text in 2 hours. Everything is connected and important, even the dam "bruise-black clouds".
I'm glad I wasn't the only one! I was slightly intimidated at first, but figured if I pushed through, eventual familiarity would arise. The descriptions are thorough and beautiful so far (only through chapter 1), and the story has already intrigued me.
I really hope the next Sword is something I've read before because then I can be just as smarmy as all you fellows going "oooh just wait, it's aaaaall important".Of course it's important. I'd be very disappointed if it wasn't. And just because some of us are plowing through it doesn't mean we're not paying attention. For me, it just means I'm reading through without much hope for full comprehension; I expect things will be explained to me later in the book and I don't mind not understanding what everything is yet. And whenever I read this sort of book, I usually check back to passages that were confusing before when things have been explained - reread certain parts for better understanding.
Agatha wrote: "I really hope the next Sword is something I've read before because then I can be just as smarmy as all you fellows going "oooh just wait, it's aaaaall important"."Well what do you want me to say? If you didn't like the first phrase on the first page, stop reading?
The whole fun of the book is discovering. Whether you discover the meaning of life and the fate of humanity or just what a Farcaster is, you are constantly twisting your brain trying to figure out what is going on.
That is what i find fun. If you don't, it's ok.
The prologue is quite challenging for those who don't typically read sci fi by choice, but I found the whole book gets much easier to read after that.
It's interesting, I started my reread of this book last night and I don't find the prologue particularly heavy on technobabble. The ten-dollar words Simmons uses are high-brow literary, not sci-fi jargon. (In fact, the words he makes up - farcaster, treeship - are fairly simple and self-evident in their meanings.)This sentence in particular, since it keeps coming up:
Bruise-black clouds silhouetted a forest of giant gymnosperms while stratocumulus towered nine kilometers high in a violent sky.
It's about trees and clouds - is there anything in there that you couldn't say in a fantasy or gen fiction novel?
Powbear wrote: "Well what do you want me to say? If you didn't like the first phrase on the first page, stop reading?The whole fun of the book is discovering. Whether you discover the meaning of life and the fate of humanity or just what a Farcaster is, you are constantly twisting your brain trying to figure out what is going on."
I didn't mean to offend you; my remark was more jokingly meant than anything else. It's a bit difficult to transmit humorous intentions online and I find myself thinking people will get my jokes anyway. So, sorry if I somehow offended you, it wasn't meant that way. :)
I love trying to figure out what's going on, which is why I like things like this. As far as sci-fi language of this particular book goes, I'm sure I'll pick it up as I read along; I only meant to express that plowing through doesn't necessarily mean not paying attention - more like ignoring the things that confuse me in favour of trying to figure out the far reaching mystery. Rather than getting hung up about not knowing what a Farcaster is, for instance.
You make a valid point. The underlining story is far more important than the technical part of the sci fi universe. But you have to admit it gives each book (or any sci fi work) a unique feeling.I mean he could have called them Stargates and said the clouds were just black, but that has no impact, does it?
David wrote: "The prologue is quite challenging for those who don't typically read sci fi by choice, but I found the whole book gets much easier to read after that."To give anyone struggling hope- as a new sci-fi reader I found this true as well. Once you get into the Priest's Tale it gets easier to visualize
Still not clear exactly how the time debt business works!
My Dad ( who has been deceased for 10 years) read Hyperion when I was about 18 (I'm now 31). He wanted me to read it so badly and I just wouldn't let myself get past those first pages which are full of unfamiliar vocabulary and science fiction jargon. I haven't really thought about the book until it became this month's pick and I am thoroughly enjoying it. My Nook Color got it's first chance to shine by looking up unfamiliar vocabulary. I think that readers should do some digging when confronted with difficult material instead of skating over it. You learn so much and will strengthen your future fantsy/sci-fi decoding skills. Maybe it's being older, but I feel that I appreciate this story more now than I probably would have if I had read it at 18.
For those of us who read sci-fi, it's often not as big of a problem as concepts are often familiar even if the names are not.
What is your reaction when starting out and seeing so much new nomenclature? Do you like being thrown in with little context? What's your approach? Do you blast through and hope you'll pick it up later, re-read the beginning, or stop at each new term and try to reason through it?