Fantasy Book Club Series discussion
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The Well of Ascension
Mistborn
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Well of Ascension Part I-Heir of the Survivor
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Hi Maggie, I was also quite miffed at Vin for her treatement of Ore Souer, though at least she got a little better as she went...
As for the Hypocricy, I thought so too at first, but then decided that she'd just rather he didn't look like Kelsier...and wouldn't just kill another person....
Its been a while since I read the series, but I think that I should go back and give it another read soon...
:-)
Finished the third chapter so far and I'm glad second book started with a good pace and a good action scene, intriguing opening. It seems that we'll also have Elend's pov in this book occasionally, I don't remember him being a pov character in the first book.
I have started this and up to the wolfhound part. At this stage there is nothing here that suggests to me that there was a trilogy planned when writing the first. I still have the feeling that the second book was born because of the success of the first and there is nothing written into the first (apart from maybe and this is a big maybe, that Eland father would return proclaiming himself a king) that makes this a story developed over 3 books, rather than a added to story.I do need to make a disclaimer here, based on those ramblings of mine. I have come off reading 10 Erikson books, so everything seems light and now well planned to me at the moment. I think it a while before that wears off.
I am hoping for more. I was happy to read the first because the metal magic was very interesting and well written. I am hoping to see that develop in book two. More allomancy perhaps as they study metals? New powers?
I didn't have a problem with Vin killing the hound, she had already decided she wouldnt kill others for him, she is from the street so has a dog eat dog attitude, so I didn't hink twice when she did that.
I was hoping to read a bit more about how the progression went for Skaa from slavery to freedom. Book two jumps in some time in the future where the first few months of what must have been absolute chaos have progressed. After hundreds of years of oppression, that chapter would have been interesting to read.
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:) Maggie I am suffering cold malazan turkey.
But I think its more than complexity. To me its the long term planning of the story, and to be fair to Sanderson I am comparing to one of the most well planned out stories of all time, but........ I can't see anything happening in book two that will give me an epiphany moment.
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Lee wrote: "But I think its more than complexity. To me it's the long term planning of the story, and to be fair to Sanderson I am comparing to one of the most well planned out stories of all time, but........ I can't see anything happening in book two that will give me an epiphany moment. "I've never read the Malazan series but, actually, Sanderson's stories (excluding his kids' series and the WoT, of course) are all part of a meta-universe, which the Stormlight Archives series is supposed to bring together. It's harder to see the long term planning because it hasn't come to fruition yet. I don't want to dig too deep into that here because it could be spoiler-ish for his other work if anyone is interested in it but I hope you're willing to give it some patience. I really feel that his work is growing in complexity and depth.
Ore Souer! I had forgotten about that plot line, one of the more interesting contrivances of this book. I can absolutely understand why Vin wouldn't want to see Kelsier all the time. His legacy is already haunting her, in more than one way, and she needs to move beyond him just as the revolutionaries must move beyond revolting and into governing.
I got a bit ahead of the group with this book. I finished it about a week ago.Lee, there will be a big pay off for you at the end of this book. There's a nice little twist that brings everything together. I think it will satisfy you.
Good to see others bothered by Vins attitude towards Ore-seur. I felt her hostility towards the Kandra, over digesting kells body, was really out of character and even a bit nonsensical for someone with such a (for lack of a better word) practical background as she has.
Lee, I can see how you might think that the first book ended neatly and only afterwards came the rest of the trilogy. However, isn't that how series should go (to some extent)? Books with huge cliff hangers are really hard to get off the ground. For me, there were enough unanswered questions that I wanted to read more. Disclaimer, I've been reading his annotations and I know that he planned three books from the beginning. The fourth book, Alloy of Law, grew out of a short story and was not planned, though there might be more in that "series" within the Mistborn world.
I am loving the tweaks to the expected so far. Vin and Elend's relationship could have been really boring had she said "yes" to his proposal. Then there are the armies, mysterious Mistborns, and mist thingys. This book is captivating! I am pacing myself but I wish I could just take a weekend and get through it. Oh well, real life is busy.
I could understand why Vin didn't want Ore-seur to be Kelsier, but I didn't get why it was ok to be a wolfhound but not all right to be one of the people already dead! She didn't have to kill someone for him.
I'm enjoying the second book so far but I agree it would have been really interesting if the storyline started off right where the other left off instead of a year later. Guys about Ore-seur, she was mad at him for eating Kelsier but at the time that he switched from human to dog he was using the body of someone else. It says in the book (page 19 in the mass market paperback edition) that he was using the body of a murderer that had been executed. He certainly couldn't have used the body of Kelsier while he was pretending to be Vin's servant.
I am sticking with the story. I am warmed by the fact that all of you who have read the series are pretty much saying "stick with it, there is more to come".@ Ben, first books don't have to finish with a cliff hanger to make it part of a multi book series. In fact The Malazan series only had one cliff hanging book ending in 10 books. It is more about building parts of the story that are explained later. If Ham buys a warehouse in book one and fills it full of grain and then in book 2, when they are under blockade by an army and everyone is complaining about the price of grain and Ham lets Elland know about his secret warehouse, I start thinking "ahhhhh that is why he did that back in book one" I feel then that this is a thought out story.
I understand that not everyone writes like that, in fact, I am/was reading two opposite examples, Malazan a 10 book thought out story and The Dark Tower which even the autor gets surprised by the ending.
@ Lindsey, interesting, i hadn't really done any research into the author, kind of leapt into this read in this group due to timing and the fact that I didn't want to read WoT. I must admit I like his writing style, I find the books really easy to open and pick up where I left off. His character building is ok, it was good in book one, in establishing the characters, but I havent seen any new developments yet (well maybe Elland has changed a lot), but early days and it is supposedly only one year later.
I still dont understand the issues with Vin, she didn't like Ore-seur for devouring Kells, she probably felt creeped out at spending all that time with him as her uncle (forget his name) and now she has to spend time with him as a surly assistant. He makes no bones about "its the contract" so her attitude to him is fine for me. In fact, she see's him as a liability at times as it means she needs to be on the ground to interact with him, thus increasing her risk factors.
I do believe their relationship will improve with him/it as a wolfhound though, that should develop further.
So what I am interesting in hearing about, is what the prevailing threat is. In book one, when she killed the Ruler, he said something like "you poor fools, what have you done". Now with Marsh running round worried, my thoughts are that the lord ruler was actually protecting them all from something and they have just let the cork out of the bottle.
This is a way to long post. Time to shut up and read.
I agree with the comments regarding Vin and OreSeur. Choosing a wolfhound to be devaured by kandra did not trouble me but why not use people that were already dead. Sometimes I feel Vin is not a character properly fleshed out regarding her emotional growth. Wolfhound choice felt a lot like when Elend left his books on the table at ball, so that plot could make Vin found them in the first book. Connection didn't feel smooth and organic there, neither is it with wolfhound. I think for some later use in plot, kandra should be an animal, but setting it up in the story could have been better.After nitpicking the part one, I can go on with what I like. New alloy that boosts the power of the metals was interesting to read. Vin was able to use it rather fast. In her second try of the alloy, she rushed into the middle of the action and I was expecting a serious backlash, but she managed the situation rather well. She is becoming as reckless as Kelsier.
As much as I like Elend overall, I cannot see how he can bring a political stability with what he has to work with.
@Lee, glad you're sticking with it. Hope you continue to enjoy!I was reviewing Sanderson's annotations for this section last night and, apparently, this is not the first group with a strong reaction to "Vin kills wolfhound" (spoilers up to that part of the book, so if you haven't read up to Chapter 5, be warned!). He had a little more to say about the Kandra in the Chapter 11 annotations (same spoiler warning, up to Ch. 11). Those annotations, as a whole, are really interesting and he's careful to mark spoilers from later in the series the same way they're marked here on goodreads.
Alright, that's it. Out to find the ebook versions so I can actively re-read these. Just too good to miss out on the live discussion because I can't remember little details!
Funny that the furor is over "Vin Kills Wolfhound", but never how she sometimes killed guards (who have been pointed out as skaa just trying to survive) who were manning their posts when she had to push/pull off them. Also her thoughts on obligators, Elland has let them stay, she says should would have killed the lot of them. She has cold blooded murderous thoughts, feeding an agressive trained to kill wolfhound is not out of character at all.I read some of the annotations and it has helped me understand some things. I think quote this was an realization moment for me.
"Here we get the return of Breeze, a perennial favorite of the Mistborn world. He gets far more screen time—and depth of characterization—than Ham, Clubs, or Dockson do. You just can�t develop everyone. (Especially if you�re not George R. R. Martin.) I did my best with the side characters, and Breeze and Spook turned out the best, in my opinion. You�ll see more of both of them, and learn more about them, as the series moves along"
It is real easy for me to sit here and say "not enough character development" or "characters are not developing chapter by chapter", but I don't want Sanderson to be Martin, I dont want to know each character like a brother/sister. So I am going to think about my comments on character roles before posting. This Book one was a lot about Elland, and you'd have to say that his character has changed a fiar bit since the original story. Vin has changed a little bit, and that has been the story so far. So I come to the conclusion that it is unfair of me to say but I havent seen any new developments yet
Lee wrote: " Also her thoughts on obligators, Elland has let them stay, she says should would have killed the lot of them. She has cold blooded murderous thoughts, feeding an agressive trained to kill wolfhound is not out of character at all..."This exact thing is what I meant by some of her actions being out of character. There is a bit of a practicality to the cold blooded things she does and thinks. So IMO there is no way that person could even remotely be morally put off by letting the Kandra eat an assassin that was sent to kill said person and was already dead, killed by circumstance in a fight.
@ Luke - LOL...Clearly you underestimate the female species! LOL
Some of us can be rather conflicted about certain issues... and just because how we feel is completely illogical, it doesn't stop us from reacting...
AS an example, my sister - she has absolutely no problem reading horror and gory details of how humans are killed or tortured... but let there be just one mention of an animal getting killed, and she'll refuse point blank to read the rest of the book...
Doesn't make sense... but hey.... :-)
Some of these out of character things people have been commenting on get addressed later in the book... Vin is deeper than she is letting on and her reasons are more in character. Just keep reading (I can't stop!)...
@ Ben - Finally someone who is just enjoying the book!! I loved the series!! Sanderson is definitely one of my favorite authors...
@Jax - Yeah! I really enjoyed Warbreaker and I got the feeling from reading out his magic systems that I would be hooked on his books. After I'm done with the Mistborn series, I've got Elantris and The Way of Kings lined up. So exciting! I can't wait to learn more about this quasi-interconnected universe that all his novels are apparently set in...
Ben wrote: "@Jax - Yeah! I really enjoyed Warbreaker and I got the feeling from reading out his magic systems that I would be hooked on his books. After I'm done with the Mistborn series, I've got Elantris an...":-) Elantris was also good - though as it was one of his first, it wasn't his best, but still VERY good! (in my opinion anyway!!) And The Way of Kings was just BRILLIANT! I cannot wait for the next one!!
I love that his magic systems are all very original!
Plus his female characters are also strong...not just the males... :-)
I just don't really like Vin too much. But I can't blame the writing. It's just a personal thing. I don't like the wolfhound thing either but I do find it to be in character. And about Kell's body. She thought of him like a brother or father. How would anyone feel being around someone who devoured a loved one to masquerade as them? It is creepy. But as an animal lover I would rather have given a dead criminal over than pick a living animal sacrifice. But this is from an animal lover...maybe to Vin animals are seen to be less than they are too me.My favorite characters are still Marsh and Sazed. IMO they're just the most unique characters so far. And they were favorites when I read this years ago. Eland is kind of boring to me. But nothing to really gripe about. Again, just personal taste.
I really like Sanderson. He's easy for me to read. Like his style.
Traci wrote: "It is creepy. But as an animal lover I would rather have given a dead criminal over than pick a living animal sacrifice. But this is from an animal lover...maybe to Vin animals are seen to be less than they are too me."
Problem is a living breathing animal is not less than a dead assassin. They are already dead for starters. I'm having hard time understanding her rationale about it. How is it any different than devouring an executed criminal.
And I agree personally. But there are people who believe an animal alive or dead is always worth less than a human. There are people who believe a body is just a useless shell after death but there are others who believe even the dead need to be treated with respect. There are also those who believe "canabilsm" is a sin no matter the reason. And Vin is shown unable to pick the cuter friendlier dog.
@ Jax Finally someone who is just enjoying the book!!Not sure what this implies to those of us discussing the book.
Lee wrote: "@ Jax Finally someone who is just enjoying the book!!Not sure what this implies to those of us discussing the book."
Personally I love nitpicking books, it does not mean I don't enjoy the book. On the contrary, it means I enjoy the book and I'm willing to discuss even ignorable details.
Exactly. I am enjoying reading it and discussing the parts I like and the parts I am curious, confused or unhappy with.
Yeah I think the dog thing confused me more than anything, since there were some perfectly good dead assassins right there =). But I too am enjoying the book!
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Like everyone else I am enjoying the series quite a bit. I ended both this book and the last with an all nighter. Have not done that in years.
If anyone actually knew me they'd know I can complain about almost anything. And if I don't think and dissect a book that means I didn't like it.About the dog, I think it's Vin's stubbornness coming through. She doesn't like the Kendra and doesn't want to give into him. The dog could be a punishment.
That is a good explanation Traci - great thinking!
Ooohhhhh Traci, that is an interesting thought. Could be two birds with one stone eh? Get a dog that can spy and annoy the Kendra at the same time.
It's funny I didn't even remember the dog from my first read through, I think I combined Sazed and OreSeur in my mind, and I absolutely love animals. I've been known to stop watching a movie if an animal gets tortured or killed. Even though it's make believe. I've gotten past the first part now and without using spoilers the OreSeur dog anger thing has an interesting reason for it. One I didn't think of but that makes sense after you read it.
I have to say though. I'm not enjoying it as much this time. Sanderson is a good writer. It's interesting. He's got a talent for worldbuilding and system creating. But I honestly cannot stand Vin. She's too perfect. Everything comes too easily for her, even though she thinks it doesn't. A big pet peeve I have is when authors use a touchstone character who is new to everything so that we the reader can get explainations within the plot but then these characters turn right around and figure out things that smarter characters couldn't with years of study. This was a problem I had with the first book and it hasn't gotten better.
Another reason for using a dog is that no one will wonder why the guy they all saw die is walking & breathing & shadowing the king's mistress.
....and it is easier to replace a pet dog with another without raising suspicion.
Lots of talk about the dog. I like the change in OreSeur. I think it's pretty cool and look forward to seeing how this aspect plays out. I might have missed it in an earlier post here, but what are some thoughts on the mist creatures. We have Sazed in a village were someone has died and then there is Vin and the mist 'creature' she has seen. She has been concerned with the Lord Rulers final words and the idea that the Deepness has been let loose is interesting.
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Lee wrote: "So what I am interesting in hearing about, is what the prevailing threat is. In book one, when she killed the Ruler, he said something like "you poor fools, what have you done". Now with Marsh running round worried, my thoughts are that the lord ruler was actually protecting them all from something and they have just let the cork out of the bottle."This is exactly my thought. There was so much in the first book that led us to believe that the Lord Ruler wasn't the biggest problem around. Why does it rain ash? Why are all the plants brown? Why the mist? All of this started when the Lord Ruler came into power, but didn't automatically stop when he was killed. Then there was the Lord Ruler's comment when he was dying... I have a feeling all of this has something to do with the Deepness that they were fighting 1000 years ago. I mean if the Hero of the Ages didn't win back then, what happened to the Deepness? Maybe it's still around. There are so many unanswered questions!
As for part I of this book, I didn't get hooked right away. I enjoyed learning more about the kandra but Vin's hatred of OreSeur seems a bit irrational. I really thought Vin's discovery of duralumin was cool, especially when she used it to rescue Breeze.
Fantasy Book Club Series
Books mentioned in this topic
Warbreaker (other topics)Elantris (other topics)
The Way of Kings (other topics)
Vin is moving into her new status with beleivable nervousness...
her relationship with Elend is showing some more realistic depth...
the political concerns seem appropriately complicated without any contrivance...
Sazed and Marsh seem to be trying to find their new place in things...
I think my only complaint so far would be her treatment of Ore Souer...while it's beleivable that she would be disgusted that he 'ate' Kelsier...that she would kill a wolfhound to have him 'digest' seemed kind of hypocritical to me....WHat do you think?