The Shack
discussion
The Hitler button
Its been a good day. But it ain't over yet. :)
Will quote:"'Is this like some sick fantasy for you? "Envisioning" hell and the afterlife, based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever?"
Fantasy? I hope not. But we can call it an option. There is plenty of literature to study on this topic. Just like many topics throughout life. Yes we are dependent on the written word for many many things. Doesn't make it TRUE, but it does give us information to be looked at logically. (You'll hate that part of course.)
If you get the last laugh - then I'll applaud you Will. But i've looked into Christianity enough to doubt your beliefs.
Yes Shanna. There's lots of fire in Hell. Can't argue with that. lots of references to flames. Even a few mentions of heat. But burning flesh? Nope. There's mention of people standing in these flames having discussions: which means there's still thinking, talking, standing, seeing.
I think the magazines may of burnt up. It doesn't mention clothes - they probably didn't make it either.
Christopher quote:"I thought I was finally debating someone who actually believed that I should literally burn forever (as in torture), which would be a bit more interesting."
It shouldn't be too hard to chat with someone who believes that. Every Muslim believes you will burn forever. Heavy on the torture.
There's also numerous charismatic (Christian?) believers who claim that HELL is nasty and painful with lots of burning and worms and demons with pitchforks. But these people seem to have a problem actually reading their Bible carefully.
Reincarnation seems like a nice alternative to Hell. Lots of Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs who can offer you an endless stream of monotonous living until the cosmos claims you.
God is definitely the Overlord of Heaven. Its his way or the highway. I can see the bind you are in. The Bible does mention that we will have a NEW nature in Heaven and sin won't be part of our thought process. It'll be like spending Christmas at Grandma's with no alcohol.
Hell is not our problem. People get what they choose. I agree that people burning in pain would be an eternal distraction.
Read the Bible carefully: notice how many thousands of times it mentions that God loves us and wants the best for us.
"The Bible does mention that we will have a NEW nature in Heaven and sin won't be part of our thought process."So, no free will in Heaven?
Shanna quote:"Wow! rude again..."
Of course. I don't remember ever claiming that I wouldn't be. I'm also quite intolerant. :p
But if i'm rude and intolerant its with a sense of humor and curiosity. Challenging people on their beliefs can be fun and nasty. At no time am I afraid of upsetting people or exploring someone's logic to its climax.
But I don't restrict people, or swear, or use crude sexuality, or insult peoples Mothers. People are free to be themselves around me at all times.
"Magic" fire that burns clothes and magazines but not flesh?Or perhaps the fire will burn but god gives us the extra torture of remaining clear minded to fully experience it?
We know how God loves the scent of burnt flesh... Perhaps this make up for all the "sweet savour" that "ended" with Jesus' "sacrifice"
Leviticus 1:8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus :12 And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: (1:12-13) "Cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat ... and burn it ... for a sweet savour unto the Lord."
1:13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Leviticus 1:16 And he shall pluck away his crop with his feathers, and cast it beside the altar on the east part, by the place of the ashes:
1:17 And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder: and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Rod wrote: "Shanna quote:"Wow! rude again..."
Of course. I don't remember ever claiming that I wouldn't be. I'm also quite intolerant. :p
But if i'm rude and intolerant its with a sense of humor and curiosi..."
Yes but ad hominem attacks don't validate your point. People are not free around you, they can't call themselves christian unless they meet your definition, peoples goodness in your estimation is limited unless they believe as you do, make sure you follow the correct Jesus not the quranic mormonic ect, get a backbone, you state very clearly you are intolerant.
Rod wrote: "Fantasy? I hope not. But we can call it an option. There is plenty of literature to study on this topic. Just like many topics throughout life. Yes we are dependent on the written word for many many things. Doesn't make it TRUE, but it does give us information to be looked at logically. (You'll hate that part of course.)If you get the last laugh - then I'll applaud you Will. But i've looked into Christianity enough to doubt your beliefs."
There will be no "last laugh." How ridiculous. Even considering I could still think after I die, do you think I'd prefer it to have ended? An afterlife is nothing but wishful thinking based on illogical thought patterns. You see, I love logic. I like finding poor logic as well, and your words are almost the definition of irrational and illogical. We (humans) don't consider it logical believing in things for which there is no evidence, especially when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
You are doing nothing but spouting dogma based on your own interpretations, which are in turn variations of an almost endless possibility of interpretations of The Bible, some of which contain very dangerous ideas. The history and evolution of Christianity is proof that. But Christianity isn't unique, of course. Your one interpretation of Christianity out of millions is just a drop in a great ocean of religion and beliefs. Most people believe, with all of their being, that their God/religion/way is the right one, and, despite what you suggested in the last sentence, it is the position of not holding beliefs in things for which there is no evidence that is the most logical position.
And, again, it's ridiculous even postulating what "Hell" is at all. The Bible doesn't say. Nothing in the OT, Hell wasn't mentioned until sweet jesus, and even then in vague parables, to which it would be silly to draw a picture of hell on a moral fable. Any other time Hell is mentioned, it's vague at best, and often ominously presented, like some spooky promise of punishment. It's a sick thing to be scaring children with it, and I find it hard to believe an adult would buy it unless they were fed it as children.
Shanna quote:"We know how God loves the scent of burnt flesh..."
Who doesn't love a good B.B.Q.? Pork chops smell wonderful don't they?
I'm very intolerant. Did I spell it wrong earlier. I will always challenge people on their beliefs. And I especially appreciate it when people challenge mine. All is fair in love and religion. (War really isn't fair.)
i'm impressed Will: it sounded like you have evidence to the contrary. Contrary of what? Heaven, Hell, God, Morals, Love, geography, Philosophy, cultures. There is plenty of evidence for the Bible. You just haven't learned to look carefully. Or have you looked at all?
I spend a great deal of time studying all beliefs (the major ones: Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Sikh, and numerous cults and Christian sects). There is no shortage of information. All you have to do is look at the societies and the effects of the core of these beliefs.
We haven't begun to discuss proofs. This is just internet chatter.
What we do have is FACTS. That is where you start:
FACT: there is a Bible.
FACT: It was written by many authors.
FACT: It is pretty old.
FACT: There is Biblical geography
FACT: There is moments where historical cultures clash.
FACT: numerous religions borrow from Christianity
FACT: You can open the Bible and read it for yourself
FACT: Language experts have been studying the Bible for over 1800 years. We have names/locations/commentaries...
Those aren't proof of God. Just information that you can actually research Christianities past and claims. There are tons of rabbit trails and people who lie...but it is possible to dig for certain truths.
I'm sure all this doesn't interest you. So i'll stop.
Rod wrote: "What we do have is FACTS. That is where you start:FACT: there is a Bible.
FACT: It was written by many authors.
FACT: It is pretty old.
FACT: There is Biblical geography
FACT: There is moments where historical cultures clash.
FACT: numerous religions borrow from Christianity
FACT: You can open the Bible and read it for yourself
FACT: Language experts have been studying the Bible for over 1800 years. We have names/locations/commentaries..."
What we do have is FACTS. That is where you start:
FACT: there is a bible, there is also a baghavad gita, koran, sutras, the egyptian book of the dead etc etc.
FACT: the bible written by many anonymous authors, spread over a few thousand years, almost always written after the events being described by people who were not present at the time. Not a reliable historical source if you don't know who wrote it. I'll let Bart Ehrman, an eminent biblical scholar, elucidate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bxPPZ...
FACT: It is pretty old. Indeed, but that doesn't make it any more worthy or true
FACT: There is Biblical geography, much of which is wrong. Which version do you mean? In the king james, the description of the holy city matches that of edinburgh
FACT: There is moments where historical cultures clash. Yes, there is throughout history with all cultures.
FACT: numerous religions borrow from Christianity, and christianity was derived from earlier religions, have you ever read the Epic of Gilgamesh? Have you ever looked at how many virgin births there are in earlier mythology? Have you read about Mithra?
FACT: You can open the Bible and read it for yourself. I can open the lord of the rings and read it for myself, whats your point? In fact, I have read the bible, it is an account of genocides, rape, repression of women, slavery and the like, including the rules for such.
FACT: Language experts have been studying the Bible for over 1800 years. We have names/locations/commentaries... much of which has been shown to be incorrect by archaeologists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSzQC1...
Fact is, even if there is some historical truth within the bible, that doesn't give any credence to the supernatural elements, but then, you wouldn't be so crass as to suggest that if one element in a book is shown to resemble truth that we should then just accept all of it as such, would you?
I didn't insult you and say you weren't good. I clearly said your Goodness was LIMITED.you obviously have a different interpretation of insulting to everyone else. By saying someones goodness is limited if they don't believe in YOUR god, you're essentially saying no-one is as good as you unless they hold themselves tot he same insubstantial beliefs in an unsubstantiated being that you do. You may just think of it as bigging yourself up, "I'm so much better than you, because I believe in something for which there is no proof", but that would just make you a self righteous, egotistical douchebag. Having faith in something doesn't make you better, it makes you more credulous.
Rod wrote: "Morag: If you seriously call yourself a Christian then maybe you should get a backbone and decide what's worth standing for. You are partially correct that all people can follow a basic morality. (..."I certainly don't need you to tell me what I need in order to be a Christian as you understand it. I am not partially correct when I say non-believers can be good and moral because it is clearly shown in the people areound me that that is true. I also did say that as Christians we belive that goodness comes from God!
You come across as a very intolerant man and just the kind of person who puts people off Christianity.
I'm sorry Hazel (didn't someone here say you were intelligent?)Those were all facts NOT PROOFS. I even remember saying something like that:
Rod quote:
"We haven't begun to discuss proofs. This is just internet chatter. What we do have is FACTS. That is where you start..."
All of that was just a START. Not proof of God, not a reason to drop everything atheistic and run to a local Baptist convention. Just the start of information that can be sorted through. You sure are extreme Hazel. Sheesh...relax girl. We're just chattin on the net. Were not gonna change the world here.
You mentioned Bart Ehrman:
Hazel quote:
"I'll let Bart Ehrman, an eminent biblical scholar, elucidate"
Now thats funny. Not often do I hear him referred to as an EMINENT BIBLE SCHOLAR. Unless he's saying that about himself. There are indeed a small group of people who worship his scholastic achievements. But even The Jonestown Massacre managed to round up a few hundred fools.
Your last comment was great and insightful Hazel:
" to suggest that if one element in a book is shown to resemble truth that we should then just accept all of it as such, would you? "
Only a Moron would assume small bits of truth mean complete TRUTH. But yes, I agree that this is what makes Religions and the world go round. Even the scientific community behaves this way.
But we can do better than that. My Motto is generally: TRUST NO ONE.
But that does not mean there is not things worth trusting. I'm not interested in discussing supernatural proofs or miracles. Those aren't testable or factual. (They are fun to consider though).
What we do have FACTUALLY is a Bible full of information. (I didn't say if it was TRUE or not).
We also have over a thousand years of scholars for and against the information in the Bible. The real question is? Who's lying and who's doing shoddy research? Fun eh?
Hazel quote:"you're essentially saying no-one is as good as you unless they hold themselves tot he same insubstantial beliefs in an unsubstantiated being that you do."
Who cares how good I am? I'm concerned about goodness in general and how it applies to the afterlife. Here's a fun little scenario to let you know how it plays out:
There was a person who went to a small village to do GOOD. She taught the children, fed them, clothed them, looked after their medical needs. Wonderful stuff.
A messenger came and told her that warriors were about to come through the village and destroy and kill everyone.
She ignored this messenger because she was doing good. She had classes to teach, food to make, medicine to distribute. She had no time for Warriors or violence - she was busy doing good. Lots and lots of good.
So the Warriors came and killed and burnt everything in the village. But she escaped.
The messenger found her and asked her why she didn't get the children and people out of the village. She didn't have time to actually save THEIR LIVES. She was busy doing good. Mostly because it made her feel GOOD.
Now they all died horrible violent deaths...But she can go back to America and impress everyone with her endless goodness.
YES, goodness is limited if not done properly. If I (and the Bible) are correct. Then all atheistic goodness counts for mostly nothing.
Don't hate me: I'm just the messenger. Actually you can hate me a little. It makes me laugh.
I'm sorry Morag that you and I disagree. Morag quote:
"You come across as a very intolerant man and just the kind of person who puts people off Christianity."
So people only come to Christianity if its nicely presented? If nice pleasant people draw them in?
Have you ever read the Old Testament...or the New Testament for that matter. Lots and lots of insults and violence (some death) based on God's people sharing the truth. Yes it should be done with Love and Hope.
But the Prophets and God are not fooling around. This is serious stuff. Remember when God instantly killed Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5:1-11>
Did not Paul and Many Prophets stand their ground and tell people they were wrong throughout the Bible and they are under God's judgement and heading towards HELL? Did you bother to read those parts? Not alot of tolerance there now was there?
Your Christianity sounds very LIGHT and nice. But is that really what the Bible offers? Did Jesus going around being nice? Everyone who hated the Truth hated HIM. IF some people don't hate you for your beliefs - then your beliefs are not very important. Jesus' beliefs were worth dying and being tormented for. All of that and you think Christians should be NICE?!
Maybe you have LOVE confused with NICE? Most people do. Love does not tolerate foolishness.
A loving parent is not always a nice parent. Not that i'm your MOMMA or anything. :p
Rod wrote: "I'm sorry Morag that you and I disagree. Morag quote:
"You come across as a very intolerant man and just the kind of person who puts people off Christianity."
So people only come to Christianity..."
I think that it's a shame that you read far more into what I actually said!
Where did I say anything about presenting Christianity nicely, all I said was about being honest about the way non-believers behave. That isn't foolish but observational.
I have often been at least disliked for standing up for my Christian beliefs so not sure why you would portray me as having a light Christianity?
Then i'm proud of you Morag for putting people off of Christianity. Well done! :)All joking aside.
Its not that i'm reading into your statements too much. I'm trying to get to the core of your theology. Do you still believe people go to HELL? That God is offended by most of mankind? That the Bible is a very rude intolerant book to non-believer's?
AS a Christian you should easily understand that being good without God counts for almost nothing. Which was the beginning of this entire discussion: Limited Goodness.
If you want to be honest about the way non-believer's behave then I dare you to start siding with the Bible instead of Atheists.
Yes we are to be tolerant of all people. But not their beliefs. Love people - but not their beliefs.
Here's how it works: Don't discuss Christian issues with people who don't want to. Most of my friends are atheists. I don't bring up Jesus and the Bible unless they are willing.
But if someone wants to discuss and debate: then bring it on...may the truth be presented in totality.
I come across far too many wannabe Christians who barely comprehend the Bible (or ever bother to read it). They think God and Jesus are nice folks who just want luxuries and good health for mankind. Do some good deeds and God will beg you to come to Heaven and be pampered for all eternity. The Bible says the opposite.
Jesus died a horrible death, the disciples mostly died horrible deaths, the early Christians mostly died horrible deaths. Christians are dying for their beliefs all over this planet. Nothing nice about it.
Anyone who thinks NICE sells Christianity is very watered down Christian light.
Having said all that. Not everyone is a debater or soldier of Truth. Some people just love and share the Gospel to those who are hurting. That is a spiritual gift as well. Just remember which side you claim to be on. How many people do you think Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, Martin Luther, William Tyndale, Amy Carmichael, and Jesus actually annoyed with the Truth? Fun eh?
I just picked up the 1989 book HELL by Fr.F.X.Sschouppe, S.J.Subtitled The Dogma of HELL, illustrated by facts taken from profame and sacred history.
He also wrote Purgatory Explained.
Also in the book HELL, is another book How to avoid HELL by Thomas A.Nelson.
I have yet to read this book(s).
Will quote:"So, no free will in Heaven? "
Big question. The simple answer: YES - lots of free will in Heaven.
The issue is our nature. What is in it and how does it affect our desires? Here's an example:
Do you have a desire to be a pedophile? NO, me neither. Its not in our nature then.
Do you have a desire to drink insane amounts of alcohol and not go a minute without the stuff? Hopefully No, me neither.
Do you have a desire to take Crystal Method non-stop till you are dead? I hope not, me neither.
Do you have a desire to lust after pornography on a daily basis? Maybe, personally I choose to avoid the stuff.
But others have to deal with the constant need for these desires. And often they enjoy these desires and feed them.
In Heaven SIN (and things that displease God) will be like crystal meth to a straight person. Not an issue. Not even a temptation. Sin will be disgusting and a waste of time. Yet still endless freewill to do as you please.
The other part is: Do you like breathing? So do I.
We will have that same desire to worship God. It won't be an option or a demand - it will be a joy - and very life itself.
i do enjoy books on Hell. Thanks Bill. I'll have a look into those. Many books on Hell I come across are pathetic and closely based on Hollywood's image of the afterlife. More pop culture than theology.
Rod wrote: "There was a person who went to a small village to do GOOD. She taught the children, fed them, clothed them, looked after their medical needs. Wonderful stuff.A messenger came and told her that warriors were about to come through the village and destroy and kill everyone.
She ignored this messenger because she was doing good. She had classes to teach, food to make, medicine to distribute. She had no time for Warriors or violence - she was busy doing good. Lots and lots of good."
Are you suggesting that atheists tend to ignore warnings of genocide? I find this line of reasoning to be a bit unsound. This teacher is not doing good by secular standards. Ignoring warnings of violence is a hefty amount of bad.
Rod wrote: "YES, goodness is limited if not done properly. If I (and the Bible) are correct. Then all atheistic goodness counts for mostly nothing."
What does this mean? If an atheist doctor saves a life then this counts for "mostly nothing"? Do you really believe this? Either you are expressing your position rather poorly, or you are maintaining a rather immoral believe, a belief that apparently stems from your religion.
In fact your goodness appears to be rather limited if I may say so. It is limited directly by god. If god commanded you to rape and pillage I assume you would obey him. I can say that raping and pillaging is unconditionally wrong.
What if an Atheistic doctor saves the life of a christian (by your standards, Rod) has what he's done count for mostly nothing?
Seriously, a "Hitler Button?"
Rod wrote: "Then i'm proud of you Morag for putting people off of Christianity. Well done! :)All joking aside.
Its not that i'm reading into your statements too much. I'm trying to get to the core of your t..."
This is the last time I will respond to you and your attacks on my Christianity!
As a Christian of course I believe in hell and that non-believers go there. Yes the gospel is very hard and unwielding if you don't believe and we do no-one any favours by pretending otherwise.
Where you get the idea I put people off Christianity I really don't know bt surely many are put off by what it is.
I think Erasing Hell by Francis Chan was on the right track. Should have been twice as long to deal with more important issues. Maybe a Volume II would be nice. For me anyway.
But Morag, you said: and I quote YOU:
"I have often been at least disliked for standing up for my Christian beliefs..."
Sounds to me like you are putting people off of Christianity. Don't be so touchy. I'm supposed to be on your side. But you said we'll probably never talk again; so I won't worry about it. Now go read your Bible. I'll do the same. :)
Shanna question:
"What if an Atheistic doctor saves the life of a christian (by your standards, Rod) has what he's done count for mostly nothing?"
they did their JOB. If I make someone a sandwich and they eat it: does that count? I saved them from total starvation. To I get to go to heaven? Maybe?
But seriously. Nazi doctors saved people's lives on occasion. Hitler thought he was doing the absolute best thing for Germany and its people.
God says HIS good is eternal. Our good is just nice for a moment. People can continue being nice in Hell too!
I believe the Bible says your good will be discussed and credited on judgement day. We'll see how that works out.
Interesting question. I'll give it more thought. Feel free to respond fully. I enjoy a moral poking.
I chat about Christopher's questions soon.
As the very old sayong goes "One mans HEAVEN is another mans HELL" so would you compare either Hollywood and or Los Vegas with either Hell or Heaven?
I don't think anyone will be happy or blessed to be in Hell Bill.Hollywood and Vegas have lots of resources and lusty goodtimes. The badtimes are often inflicted on people by those higher up (banks, drugdealers, gangsters, casino operators, bad food. That ain't gonna happen in Hell.
Definitely no lusty goodtimes in heaven either.
Heaven is all about God. Most religious people seem to think Heaven is going to be all about them. I doubt they will enjoy what God has laid out for them. Muslim s will be shocked if they don't get their 72 lusty virgins for all eternity.
Heaven isn't about us. Its about Jesus. So the Bible says. Take it or leave it - for now. Unless of course: I'm wrong. :)
Christopher questions: "Are you suggesting that atheists tend to ignore warnings of genocide?... Ignoring warnings of violence is a hefty amount of bad."
Not earthly genocide of course. But eternal genocide. I'm guessing all atheists are NOT concerned eternal repercussions of ignoring the God of the universe. (otherwise they wouldn't be atheists?!)
Yes, If I and the Bible are correct - then all atheists are indeed doing BAD. That was the point of the story.
Feeding starving children all over the world is great. But ignoring their eternal futures makes all that food pointless.
Christopher question:
"If an atheist doctor saves a life then this counts for "mostly nothing"?"
Just doing their job. I'm sure God appreciates it.
Christopher question:
"...your goodness appears to be rather limited if I may say so. It is limited directly by god. If god commanded you to rape and pillage I assume you would obey him..."
You indeed may say that my goodness is limited. If I am wrong then you may be somewhat right. But my goodness involves: looking after people, feeding the poor, sending money to international aid, working in my community on occasion, trying to be a helpful decent person."
As a Christian God instructs us to help and not be selfish. If I was an atheist I would spend alot more time getting everything I can out of this life...this is the only chance I get to live it up.
If God commanded me to rape and pillage then we have a problem: He forgot to mention it in the Bible. Therefore I will totally ignore that request. The Bible is the WORD of God. I hold that above any ghostly supposed deity voices that might bark orders at me.
Sorry if my answers are hurried and not fully explained. I'll have more time later.
Rod wrote: "I'm guessing all atheists are NOT concerned eternal repercussions of ignoring the God of the universe."It seems apropos at this point to note that you and I are not that unalike. You are an atheist when it comes to islam or any of the other dozens of religions in the world, in that you doubt their validity. My doubt has simply extended to one religion further than yours. I suspect you don't lose any sleep at night entertaining the "eternal repercussions" that might follow by not praising allah and becoming a devoted muslim. Of course a muslim could tell you that all of your christian goodness in this world "counts for mostly nothing". I wonder how you would respond to this mirror image of yourself on the muslim side.
Rod wrote: "But my goodness involves: looking after people, feeding the poor, sending money to international aid, working in my community on occasion, trying to be a helpful decent person. As a Christian God instructs us to help and not be selfish. If I was an atheist I would spend alot more time getting everything I can out of this life...this is the only chance I get to live it up."
All wonderful things, and I applaud you for them. But are not these the very deeds you say "count for mostly nothing" since it is our eternal wellbeing that is most important? I take you don't feel you deserve any special credit for this, as you seem to be saying that the reason you do these good deeds is mainly because you are following orders, and if you were an atheist you would not be so inclined. It seems to me empathy is a much better reason to do good.
Rod wrote: "If God commanded me to rape and pillage then we have a problem: He forgot to mention it in the Bible. Therefore I will totally ignore that request. The Bible is the WORD of God. I hold that above any ghostly supposed deity voices that might bark orders at me."
I apologize for being too vague. Let us take some injunctions directly from the bible. Leviticus 24:16 commands you to stone me to death if I blaspheme the lord. Now I say the lord is a pig fucker (I assume this is sufficiently blasphemous). If you were to meet me in person would you stone me? It seems you are now obligated to do so.
Is this discussion about "The Shack" ?Whether or not I believe in God, the book was stupid.
I have often wondered just what kind of GOD an Atheist does not believe in.
Rod, you answer questions about what hell and heaven are like with a confident certainty. How do you know?
Bill wrote: "I have often wondered just what kind of GOD an Atheist does not believe in."All of them, any of them, any supernatural all powerful being you can come up with are rejected for a lack of proof.
That's why when these discussions occur--when I have them in real life--I always start by asking the person to define their God and their attributes. Even talking with just a few religious people separately that are of the same denomination it becomes clear that rarely will you find two people that worship the same god; that is, each person seems to have very different characteristics of God that they will attribute to it.
Joseph Cambell is a wonderful teacher. Very spiritual, not religious. He discusses the danger of taking the teachings of religion concretely rather than metaphorically. His thoughts might be helpful, and surely not judgemental. Bill Moyers did a great interview with him called The Meaning of Myth. Campbell wrote many books on the topic of Gods, heros etc. It helped me deal with religion questions. I believe Campbell that Heaven and Hell are right here, this is it. Live your life well, fully, follow your "bliss".
Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture is the press of a bu..."
Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture is the press of a bu..."
It is the same way with either Politics or Religion.So why should Religion be any different?
Christopher quote:" I wonder how you would respond to this mirror image of yourself on the muslim side. "
I've spent over 5 years researching and studying Islam - as well as chatting with 100's of Islamic folk on the net. (Just checking if maybe they are right). I'm very sure they are not correct. I believe a basic study of their founders history shows this well.
I would be very willing to change religions - or become an atheist if I thought that was the Truth of the universe. All a person can do is trust no-one and dig for facts.
I have often tried to place myself in the middle of many religions and see if there's enough core credibility to hold me there while I try to escape. So far only Christianity (the Bible actually) has passed this test.
In Islam: their god allah has adjustable goodness it seems. He doesn't seem to have a well laid out plan (like the God of the Bible does). Allah is just moody.
Christopher quote:
"It seems to me empathy is a much better reason to do good."
Good deeds are supposed to come out of our faith. They don't impress God. Obedience impresses him.
However, God tells us to Love our neighbor. If we can't do this - then God says; "take a hike."
If you don't have Love for mankind: then you are NOT a Christian. So empathy is built into the system.
Is it a possibility that many atheists (and others) do good because of how rewarding it is to self? The other possibility is plain old loyalty and duty: like being a Mother. Many parents go through the motions without Love. Weird eh?
Christopher quote: (and a GOOD ONE!)
"If you were to meet me in person would you stone me? It seems you are now obligated to do so."
I guess you are right. IF:
you are living amongst God's chosen people in his promised land during a time of absolute Justice.
But i'm not an Israelite. Or a chosen Jew to be an example to the world. Or living in a society totally functioning upon God's rules.
A quick study of Israel's history shows that they seldom followed the rules or did anything pleasing to God. God was aware these folks would fail at preserving a community based on his righteousness. They survived long enough to have Jesus born through the lineage of Abraham and David. Promise fullfilled. No more stoning necessary.
I have no right to enforce Biblical laws in another Kingdom. And right now Satan has authority in this world (just read a newspaper for validation on that)
At this point I don't need to stone you - God can deal with you himself. I don't do his condemning: That's a perk for being God.
Anyone standing near Christopher might want to step to the right about 10ft. Just incase.
Bill quote:"I have often wondered just what kind of GOD an Atheist does not believe in. "
Good question. Any atheists want to answer that?
My guess is they don't like a deity that tells them to smarten up and live with some appreciation for the creator of life, the universe and everthing.
Technically Hinduism would be alot more fun. There's millions of God's to chose from. And my favorite: the Monkey God who runs around stealing other deities wives. How can someone doubt that kind of deities existence? Must be a politician god.
The Bible spends over a thousand pages giving us endless details about God's character and quirks. (Apparently he likes the smell of a good B.B.Q.)
The only time Christians don't agree on what's in the Bible is when neither of them bother to read it. All of it. A few times...slowly. Then watch the Ten Commandments with Charlton Heston. Most Christians I talk to are Biblically illiterate. They only know what their local Pastor told them to believe.
The Bible is very clear about everything to do with God. I don't understand the confusion myself.
Hazel question:"...any supernatural all powerful being you can come up with are rejected for a lack of proof."
What kind of proof would you like? I've got lots of proof - just not the kind you would appreciate.
for now God will not interfere with YOU being YOU. As soon as you are ready to be the YOU the he would like you to be - you'll see some very interesting things. Not freaky supernatural escapades or wizardry: But real life purity and all pieces of the universal puzzle fitting perfectly.
Hazel question:" you answer questions about what hell and heaven are like with a confident certainty. How do you know?"
You aren't going to like this: But its the Bible. And not just the Bible; its all the confusion around the bible. There's alot to be learned by confusion.
Was there confusion around Nazi Germany in wars? Yes. And it told us alot. Fascinating eh?
When there's no confusion that's when things get weird. Absolutes are a challenge. But anyway...
Basically looking at what the Bible says about Heaven and Hell...now compare that to 1900 years of myths and ridiculous personal journeys by overly emotional attention seekers as well as 100's of religions which borrow and steal from a main source. Then watch those crazy Angel T.V. shows for some serious foolishness.
Now go back to what God originally said on the matter and see how it all compares.
Truth is so much simpler than anything mankind can distort.
Rod wrote: "I've spent over 5 years researching and studying Islam - as well as chatting with 100's of Islamic folk on the net. (Just checking if maybe they are right). I'm very sure they are not correct. I believe a basic study of their founders history shows this well."I feel the same about christianity, and of course I agree with you about islam.
Rod wrote: "Good deeds are supposed to come out of our faith. They don't impress God. Obedience impresses him. However, God tells us to Love our neighbor. If we can't do this - then God says; "take a hike.""
As I pointed out god often tells you to kill your neighbor. If the basis of your morality is following orders then any given action is potentially moral. This seems to defy the very idea of morality.
Rod wrote: "Christopher quote: (and a GOOD ONE!)
'If you were to meet me in person would you stone me? It seems you are now obligated to do so.'
I guess you are right. IF:
you are living amongst God's chosen people in his promised land during a time of absolute Justice.
But i'm not an Israelite. Or a chosen Jew to be an example to the world. Or living in a society totally functioning upon God's rules."
I am relieved you would not stone me. But then do you believe murder is currently a sin? Do not the ten commandments also apply only to the ancient israelites? Is it some teaching of jesus you take as your basis for the wrongness of murder? If so why do you believe the teachings of jesus apply to you? You are just as removed from the people jesus conveyed his teachings to as you are from the ancient israelites.
To Chris:God has not told anyone to kill their neighbor in many thousands of years. When he did give direct orders to kill a neighbor it was pretty specific. This was a test for the Israelites to hold their morality in check amongst their civilization.
This problem is still around. What if thousands of pedophiles wanted to move into your town and establish their base of operations there? Would that be acceptable? Would the local police and justice department just ask them nicely to stop? Sometimes justice must be dished out abruptly. Remember - there were no prisons in early Israelite society.
Anyway, a few years after God took matters into his own hands. He fought many Israelite battles himself. In the New Testament he did his own killing. There is no account of Christians ever being told to kill again. The crusades were not sanctioned by God. The Bible did not justify them.
I personally approve of God's justice. He doesn't go around murdering people because they sin - he occasionally did it for the preservation of his people and mankind. Basically you can sin all you want. Just don't destroy mankind's chances for eternal security in the process. If someone attempted to NUKE this planet I think God would step in and preserve most of it. But God gave this world to Satan for now. Evil is his problem.
That takes alot of stress off me. :)
Christopher question:
"If so why do you believe the teachings of jesus apply to you?"
Rules are a funny thing. They don't always apply in every situation. If you don't have any children: do parental rules apply? Not really. So not all Israelite community rules apply to me. The point behind the rules do though.
Jesus reduced all the rules to 2 things: Love God, Love your neighbor. All the 10 commandments fit into those two rules. And almost all the Jewish rules fit into those two as well. Even the weird ones had a purpose of love behind them. Some had to be very specific so they would stand out in a land of paganism and cruelty.
I agree with God that sometimes stoning (or murdering?) a serial killer, or dangerous criminal, or someone who is intent on destroying a loving sharing safe community is the only solution. Unless of course you have wonderfully large, well serviced, correctional facilities to house these repeat offenders. I believe justice is not a sin. The Bible is pretty clear that people are NOT to take the law into their own hands. If you have an issue that requires punishment or death - the community and Judges must decide. It is never one mans decision. Correct me if i'm wrong. So far all my research in the Old Testament has shown that to be true. But its a big book - I could be wrong. :)
I'm not so sure I am removed from the people Jesus applied his teachings too. He was not interested in Government, or social issues of his day or culture. He was here for the salvation of mankind. A much larger issue. He taught Romans, Jews, many Gentiles and some foreigners.
So what's your Biggest complaints against Christianity Christopher? Proof, morality, corruption, bad preachers on tv? Just curious.
Christopher and Rod quote:
" I believe a basic study of their founders history shows this well."
Christophers response: "I feel the same about christianity"
Is this what you meant? Do you have a problem with the founders of Christianity? Or the early history of it? Or the middle and later history of it? I'm curious. I've spent alot of time lately studying church history from 100 A.D. to 1600 A.D.. I'm mostly interested in the preservation of the Bible through the insanity. Fun eh?
You are a real treat, Rod.Bill quote:
"I have often wondered just what kind of GOD an Atheist does not believe in."
Rod:
"Good question. Any atheists want to answer that?
My guess is they don't like a deity that tells them to smarten up and live with some appreciation for the creator of life, the universe and everthing."
It was actually an appreciation of this universe and studying it that directly influenced my breaking away from religion, as everything we know about the world points to a god being unnecessary, Occam's Razor style. The "kind" of god I don't worship is any put forth for which there is no evidence. There are also gods, like the one in the Bible, which I reject on many levels.
First, He is contradictory. A perfect God, by definition, does not make mistakes, yet there are many instances of God in the Bible "changing his mind" or regretting something he had done (--> The Flood story). It also doesn't follow that He would have petty human emotions like jealousy and anger, not to mention the contradiction in his very attributes, as being omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent are not compatible. Add in free will and you have a recipe for disaster. If God knows the future, can He change it? If He knows the future, and has the power to change it, that means he created this whole "Plan" knowing that the vast majority of people would reject Him and spend eternity in Hell. And now God is starting to sound like the bad guy.
Second, the very "human-like" God of the OT turns his vengeance on anyone who doesn't worship him. Many of these "tribes" that the Israelites slaughtered (men, women, animals, and children) were just like the Israelites themselves, they just happened to worship something else. Should Christians carry on this mission? Really there is no justification for the atrocities committed in the OT in God's name, and I don't think He can ever be forgiven for not only not outlawing the owning of people, but advocating slavery, and even going as far as putting it in the commandments how to treat your slaves (As long as they don't die within 2 days, it's cool to beat them, etc.) This great folly is exponentially ballooned after hearing apologists try to justify this, i.e., it was a different time. Therefore, God's morality changes?
Third, this God of the Bible wishes to punish me for "thought-crimes," a ludicrous concept, and one which wishes me to feel guilty for something which cannot be helped. And the guilt-cycle keeps churning.
Fourth, this God states that every little baby is born in sin, and then demanded by God to get better, or, as Fulke Greville puts it, "Created sick — Commanded to be well." This is disgusting.
"The only time Christians don't agree on what's in the Bible is when neither of them bother to read it."
Bull. My mother and my grandmother (on my father's side) could probably piece together the entire Bible word for word from memory. And that is no exaggeration. Between them they have more than a century of leading bible studies, and they both read through the Bible once a year. And despite this knowledge of Scripture between the two, they both have very different beliefs on who God is and on what His words mean. To the point of hilarity. It has led to more family feuds than I'd care to reminisce on.
"The Bible is very clear about everything to do with God. I don't understand the confusion myself."
The confusion stems from the fact that the Bible is NOT clear, on anything. In fact, it's incredibly vague. The OT is speckled with alternative history, and filled in with metaphorical stories about floods and women coming from ribs and she-bears mauling dozens of children because they laughed at a bald guy. It's all very confusing, and you haven't even gotten to the NT yet! Where Jesus speaks almost strictly in parables, and there is an entire book documenting an acid trip (okay that was sarcasm). Fun, eh? And it's also worth mentioning the great discrepancies between the accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection between the gospels. Despite your denial of Bart Ehrman's knowledge on the subject, he isn't wrong, nor does he deviate from what Bible scholars agree on. I think I will trust a scholar who has dedicated his life to understanding the Bible in it's original languages, and who's studies are backed by those that study it as well. BUT, it doesn't take a degree in anything to read the gospels side by side and see all of the discrepancies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_EHDM...
And outside of all of this, you have humans, who determine morality through empathy and interacting with each other. All of these confident religions are just a distraction from here and now, and the inevitable decline of humanity unless we start caring about THIS world, and not trying to convince others of some other world that exists after death, where it conveniently can never be shown to exist.
And please, Rod, stop pretending that the only people that God kills in the Bible are those that threaten humanity or are evil, when, in fact, women, animals, and children suffer from God's objectionable wishes. Let me ask you this, when David sinned against the Lord and slept with Bathsheba, did He punish David or Bathsheba for their "sin?" Read that story again if you wish, but I'll go ahead and spoil it for you, God kills his child."15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. 16 David pleaded with God for the child. He fasted and spent the nights lying in sackcloth[b] on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he refused, and he would not eat any food with them.
18 On the seventh day the child died."
Not only did God kill the child, but He made it suffer for 7 days first. There is no justifying that. It is sick. I propose that the whole thing is entirely man-made, and if it weren't, I certainly would never worship something that would punish an innocent baby for its father's wrongdoings, and I would be willing to bet that you wouldn't either. And hopefully, if God commanded you to, you would stand up for what is right even in the face of a supernatural being.
Wow Will, that's awesome! Good comebacks. None of them I agree with however. I'm sure you're not surprised by that. Although your research into King David's sin baby is fascinating. I live for challenges like that.You won't like me responses to you of course. If you did it would probably mean I was unclear or said the wrong thing.
so what happened in the very beginning of the Bible:
Genesis 2:16
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
So Sin equals DEATH. God has stressed this point many many times. Is King David an example to all of Israel and generations to come? You bet he is. And that's what happened here. A King is judged.
Is God mean? I don't think so - He is teaching all of Israel (also David and his wife) a lesson that affects all of eternity. Sin equals death. No one gets around this. Sin must be punished by death. God is Holy. Did Jesus die for his sin or for the sins of others? An interestingly similar situation is it not?
The problem is: we can't pay for our sin, someone with enough wealth must do it for us. Problem solved.||
Did the baby suffer? All it said was the baby was sick. Doesn't even mention pain. Maybe it was nicely in a coma?! God generally doesn't torture people. But he sure takes many peoples lives. When you create the universe you have that right.
David even mentions that him and the baby will be reunited in the future. This baby is well looked after by God.
Who said the baby was punished? Do you ever get ill? Get a cold? fever? Was it an affliction from God? Maybe it was. However, all of humanity seems to have this problem. That is how God teaches us and those around us life lessons.
If God took my baby I would understand that possibly it was for the greater good.
Could this baby have threatened humanity or salvation for mankind? Only God knows.
If this baby became King it would mean that possibly a murder by a lustful King is perfectly acceptable behaviour. IF God would of killed David the baby may of resented Israel and its deity for its entire life. Not a good way to run God's chosen people.
But God did indeed punish David and Bathsheba in the future.
2 Samuel 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house...
God's not fooling around. Eternity is at stake for mankind.
Rod wrote: "God generally doesn't torture people. But he sure takes many peoples lives. When you create the universe you have that right."And here is where the argument for me boils down. You are perfectly willing to accept that if God created us, he has the right to destroy us. I do not accept this slave mentality.
Will quote:"The "kind" of god I don't worship is any put forth for which there is no evidence."
Maybe you never looked properly. Or at all?! Were you only expecting to see a big head in the sky? I hope you actually used some logic and reasoning beyond that of most teenage atheists.
Will quote:
"Bull. My mother and my grandmother (on my father's side) could probably piece together the entire Bible word for word from memory..."
Now this is fun. I enjoy studying heresy throughout history. How do people read the word of God and get so screwed up? There's many simple ways to achieve this:
Most just read and get out of it exactly what THEY WANT.
The Bible is never supposed to be about what WE WANT. Its about God and what he wants. I bet if I sat down with Mom and Grandma for a few minutes it would be easy to figure out where the problem is. Some people are very emotional and others are very logical. Neither of these are necessarily bad things. But they do create problems. Since God is perfectly emotional and Logical - He gave us a book that some of us can't handle. The goal is to be balanced. Like Jesus was.
Your other complaints are amusing. Yes I've studied the Gospels side by side. I'm very aware of why people like Bart Ehrman come to their lame conclusions. very biased and poorly thought out scholarship. Its funny how so many atheists just love this guy. Hilarious!
So Will; how exactly do you think all these world religions got started? Just a whole bunch of lies? Billions of people are lying and dedicating their lives to poorly thought out lies? How many people suffered and died for their lies? Strange eh?
People don't generally die for a lie. I say there is a truth behind all of these lies. You don't get false God's unless there's a real God stray from.
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So, not too hard today then?