Why didn't Gandalf take the ring to Mount Doom on the back of an eagle.

[Dan]

Here, here!Maxine wrote: "Because, if he had, the book would have been about as long as your question and what a loss that would be to us readers!"

[Jonesmikey]

Hobbits are not weaklings! Sauron was just too much of a hubris filled, arrogant a-hole to see a risk that was crawling right up under his somumbitch nose.

[Casey]

I have wondered this many times....It seems so much safer not to mention quicker.

[Yannis]

Even if Tolkien had changed the nature of the Eagles(from a "rescue mission only" device to a strike force) and just wrote "these ones simply flew into Mordor and threw the ring in the fire" the story wouldn't end there.
It'd be easier, less dramatic etc but there would be a long story.
What happened with the Balrog? Smeagol would have remained Gollum? The pirates would still occupy the ports? Rohan would be conquered by Saruman and then perhaps he'd take command of the orcs from Mordor and the armies of the South and attack Gondor. Saruman didn't need the ring. In fact, if Gandalf didn't hurry to cross Moria and meet the Balrog he wouldn't become White and Saruman would easily defeat him. The hobbits wouldn't meet the Ents so they wouldn't save Rohan nor destroy Isengard. Aragorn wouldn't restore the alliance between Rohan and Gondor, actually he'd never become a king at all.

[Howard]

As has been said before, not much of a story would remain, and its the journey that's important anyway. Well, the destination is important as well, but the story is in the journey, and as long as we enjoyed the telling, or the reading, who cares how they got there.

On my part, I have never questioned the choices made by the characters in the story as we all make choices, good or bad, and mostly survive the consequences. And generally ate grown wiser through the experience. Thats is all I look for from the characters in the books and stories I read, and those that deliver are the books and stories I remember and cherish . . . and reread over and over again.

As an example, I have just reached the the celebration after Mt Doom has blown up and the minstral is singing of Frodo of the Nine Fingers and the Ring of Doom! I have lost count of how many times I have read the trilogy but I would hazard a guess that it has been more than 60 times over 35 years that I have read (or listened to as I now do it by audio book) the LotR.

[Niall]

At the time of the council open conflict with Sauron in Mordor was suicide. The hobbits were so small as to be under Sauron's radar (if you will), the eagles couldn't do this. Finally the eagles could affect the rescue after the ring entered Mt. Doom because Sauron was distracted by Ilendil's heir, and injured (destroyed?) by the destruction of the ring.

Only Tom Bombadil was immune to the ring's power, and it's power to corrupt, because he was superior or equal to Sauron, the Master of the ring.

The council didn't know how best to combat Sauron, but through Gandalf they intuited that it would be through exploiting Sauron's arrogance, his blindness to the importance of the little things.

Lord of the Rings, ultimately is a story that teaches us the importance of the little things, and the value of protecting them.

[Niall]

If Gandalf had sealed a hobbit in a lead box, he'd be Saruman ;)

[Lynx]

I read that the eagles would have become posessed by the ring and tried to steal it...

[Wayne]

Lynx wrote: "I read that the eagles would have become posessed by the ring and tried to steal it..."

I agree. That is why it took Frodo, Sam and Gollum to destroy it. Frodo alone could and would not, Sam alone would not have been able to but Gollum's desire and lust of the ring is what actually did the trick.

Not that hard of a concept to me.

[Stephen]

For the same reason that Dorothy couldn't just click her heels three times at the BEGINNING of the movie.

[Howard]

Completely different situation. I mean, I read Wicked! (Note to self. Add Wicked to my Read Shelf)

Dorothy couldn't just click her heels three times and go home because that coniving and twisted Glenda intentionally withheld that info just for the entertainment value of watching Dorothy go through her trials!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :-)

[Geoffrey]

No way. Glenda wanted the wicked witch out of the way. Dorothy was her instrument, all on account she was up on THE PRINCE

[Karina]

Arjun wrote: "One does not simply fly into mordor..."
Well done! (Applauds till palms are sore) Almost spat my tea out! Heheheh...

[Mike]

Arjun wrote: "One does not simply fly into mordor..."

:) nice

[Walt]

You mean Sam. Sam's the hero."

Amen to that. Sam's my favorite.

[Geoffrey]

No Mike, Frodo and the Hobbits also were without the power motive. So not only Gollum but our big footed little people also were inured to its lure.

[Michelle]

I didn't read this whole thing so someone else may have said it..but I swear there was a part in fotr where someone said the eagles actually refused to help because they basically didn't want to put their necks on the line. They do help in other ways, but getting that close to Mordor would've been way too obvious and Sauron would have shut that down as soon as he saw them coming. I think that's why Gandalf and co. would have chosen the stealthier way of getting into Mordor.

[Andy]

I have a very long response on my blog I encourage you to read: http://writingalias.blogspot.com/2014...

For me, it answers all the questions (I also link to some other articles).

Basically, the eagles are not as all-powerful and resourceful as the movies make them appear. They have severe limitations when it comes to movement and being able to carry loads (they could not have gone to Mordor in 15 minutes, nor even a few days). Further, they are very susceptible to arrows and, of course, there is always the Nazgul, weather, and the corruption of the ring (in the Hobbit it is clear the eagles like their treasure). Finally, the Fellowship's quest depended on secrecy, something that could not be achieved by flying in open sky day after day.

Read the article, please.

[Richard]

Andy wrote: "I have a very long response on my blog I encourage you to read..."

Andy, it has already been established on this thread that the Nazgul were not airborne at the time of the Fellowship, since they had recently fallen as Riders.
The answers are all in the Silmarillion. Once you know exactly who the wizards and the eagles are, it becomes apparent. ;)
But I'll look at your article.
EDIT: Good points and well-researched. I think in such a rich book with its detailed background, there are many small considerations that sway the decision made, like in real life.
I read it as a balance of power; as the gods fought with the Achaeans and the Trojans on the battlefield, behind the scenes, but without them, it would not have taken place...

[Hannah]

Ha! This is probably the most asked question ever and one i have pondered myself. Logistically it makes sense. But then there'd be no story!

[Trike]

Andy wrote: "Basically, the eagles are not as all-powerful and resourceful as the movies make them appear. They have severe limitations when it comes to movement and being able to carry loads (they could not have gone to Mordor in 15 minutes, nor even a few days). Further, they are very susceptible to arrows and, of course, there is always the Nazgul, weather, and the corruption of the ring (in the Hobbit it is clear the eagles like their treasure). Finally, the Fellowship's quest depended on secrecy, something that could not be achieved by flying in open sky day after day."

Too bad all the descriptions of the eagles and their abilities in the books contradict this point of view.

They can clearly carry quite a bit and powerful creatures of their ilk were right next to the Ring for long periods without being twisted by it.

It really is just a plot hole and nothing more. I don't get the extreme reverence for this book that people become so defensive about it. No one's perfect.

[Trike]

Hannah wrote: "Ha! This is probably the most asked question ever and one i have pondered myself. Logistically it makes sense. But then there'd be no story!"

I disagree. There would be a different story, but there would be a story.

Personally, I think that if Tolkien hadn't forgotten about the eagles (which is really all that happened: a mere oversight on his part), he could have inserted a single line of dialogue into the Council of Elrond that said something like, "I spoke to the great eagles and they have concerns over a disturbance in the North which requires their immediate attention."

Even complaints from others could be shut down. "Concerns greater than the destruction of all Middle Earth by Sauron's armies?" "I do not question the word of Gwaihir. He will return as soon as he is able, so we must set out on foot."

Otherwise, since the eagles were proactive in helping the good guys throughout the story, even acting as Gandalf's taxi service a couple of times, there's really no explanation for why they didn't at least give Frodo a lift to the border.

Ideally, the Council of Elrond should have looked like this:

Larger: http://oi57.tinypic.com/k3w1e9.jpg

[Richard]

Ignacio wrote: "Vivienne wrote: "Gandolf couldn't take the ring.... He would've kept it and not destroyed it. Just like anybody else would have, except frodo!"

You mean Sam. Sam's the hero."

Sam and Frodo are collectively the hero. If Frodo is the 'officer' and Sam is 'other ranks', the message is that only the two classes supporting each other can get the job done.

[Geoffrey]

Trike wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Ha! This is probably the most asked question ever and one i have pondered myself. Logistically it makes sense. But then there'd be no story!"

I disagree. There would be a different ..."

Considering that Sauron had a multitude of spies everywhere and that they were on the lookout for the wee folk, any sorty by the Eagles carrying Hobbits on their backs even as far as the Mordor border would have set off alarms. I see no inconsistency at all in Tolkeins alleged oversight.

[Trike]

Geoffrey wrote: "Considering that Sauron had a multitude of spies everywhere and that they were on the lookout for the wee folk, any sorty by the Eagles carrying Hobbits on their backs even as far as the Mordor border would have set off alarms. I see no inconsistency at all in Tolkeins alleged oversight. "

Since even Legolas with his supernatural eyesight standing on a mountain can barely see the eagles as they fly over, I rather doubt an orc or wraith would. But even if they could see them, so what? They had no way to shoot them down and the ringwraiths were still strictly horsebound in the beginning.

Even if they erred on the side of caution and only took Frodo to the edge of Mordor, that still eliminates 3/4 of his journey. Tolkien would have had to find some other way to tell the story he wanted to tell, but he basically could have just set most of Frodo's journey inside Mordor.

I find it really difficult to see this as anything other than an oversight.

[Howard]

@Trike, you and I will simply disagree on your point. Oversight or not, Tolkien told the story he wanted to tell.

[Craig]

I'd guess that it would have made reading the books much less interesting....

[Andy]

Trike wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Ha! This is probably the most asked question ever and one i have pondered myself. Logistically it makes sense. But then there'd be no story!"

I disagree. There would be a different ..."

Hey man, did you read my article? Tolkien was more than aware of the eagles, as he commented on their use in several of his letters. Further, I'm not sure what references you were making, as I quoted copiously from the book and read all parts where they are mentioned.

[Andy]

Richard wrote: "Andy wrote: "I have a very long response on my blog I encourage you to read..."

Andy, it has already been established on this thread that the Nazgul were not airborne at the time of the Fellowship..."

Thanks for reading. I've heard and read about the Eagles being servent of Manwe, etc. I just don't really buy that as a reasons, for Gandalf helped quite a bit, and he was in similar circumstances.

Thanks for your great feedback.

[Wally]

Frodo asked the same question of Galdalf in Fellowship. Gandalf stated that he wouldnt dare touch it as he would try to do good with the added power he would gain. But as the power would undoubtably corrupt him, he wouldn't dare try.

[Geoffrey]

Trike wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "Considering that Sauron had a multitude of spies everywhere and that they were on the lookout for the wee folk, any sorty by the Eagles carrying Hobbits on their backs even as far ..."

And what about Sauron's eye atop Mt. Doom?

[Ruby]

This is what I believe to be the complete and absolute truth:

The Eagles are their own people. They are not at just anyone's beck and call to be beasts of burden. They have their own rules and own society.(Plus, who's to say the Ring wouldn't corrupt them, like Gandalf feared with himself?)

The War of the Ring would affect all of Middle Earth, but the Eagles knew their part in it, and that part was NOT to be beasts of burden. Sure, they COULD have carried the fellowship, but they could have been spotted. Could have been killed. Could have lost the Ring. They made their own choices, and the Council of Elrond knew when it was doing when it didn't consider them.

Eagles aren't slaves; they are a people who helped when they deemed it right. It wasn't their responsibility to carry anyone anywhere. Also, it wouldn't have been just Frodo and Sam; it would have been the whole fellowship because that's who set out on the mission. So the Eagles weren't part of the equation and for a logical reason.

[Geoffrey]

The dangers were way too great. Sauron would have known immediately that something was up with a bunch of wee folk on their backs and Boromir, Legolas, Gandalf and troupe in transit. He would have called on the airborne, the Nazgul, the Harpies and the Phantom 17s and everything else that would have destroyed the Eagles or at the very least dislodged the Ringbearer from his perch.

Yes, you are right, American,,,,errrrr..... the Eagles were not slaves. But even more so such a mission would have been doomed from the start by Mordors evil airborne.

[Ruby]

Also, regarding the first post, Nazgul do not actually have wings: they ride fell beasts or horses. They were on horses when Frodo first saw them, but they switched to the flying fell beasts when things got rough. Nazgul means Ringwraith in the black tongue, I believe.

[Trike]

Ruby wrote: "This is what I believe to be the complete and absolute truth:

The Eagles are their own people. They are not at just anyone's beck and call to be beasts of burden. They have their own rules and own society.(Plus, who's to say the Ring wouldn't corrupt them, like Gandalf feared with himself?)"

Yeah, no.

Your "absolute truth" only works if you completely ignore all the times the eagles were at the beck and call of... Well, let's just call it what it was, author fiat.

When Tolkien wanted a deus ex machina to get someone out of a jam, he produced the eagles. When they were inconvenient to the plot, he ignored them.

There's no rhyme or reason to it, there aren't any rules to this story -- and it IS just a story, not the commandments engraved by God and brought down from the mountain by Moses, FFS -- so the eagles are there when needed and become plot holes when not.

It is my belief that Tolkien simply forgot about about them in the heat of writing his book and tried to lamely rationalize their exclusion afterward, but whether it was intentional or accidental doesn't change the fact that not taking the eagles to the border of Mordor is a plot hole.

No book is perfect and you lot have to stop genuflecting at the altar of Tolkien. We even have rough drafts and different versions of his stories now, so you can actually see the process he went through. It's not holy writ from ancient gods, it's a guy writing a damn book in his spare time.

[Geoffrey]

Trike
There's nothing so convenient as having the Eagles rescue Sam and Frodo at the end. They were no longer at odds with Sauron as the latter had been already defeated with the destruction of the ring. So the supposed jam they were in is that they were near the top of Mt. Doom, plumb exhausted from their travails, and recuperating their strength.

Your argument holds up better in the other incident in which Azog corners the dragon slayers on the cliff in THE HOBBIT.

I would conjecture that JRR had little respect for US efforts in WWII, during which the trilogy was written. Do I need to explain why?

[Trike]

Geoffrey wrote: "Trike
There's nothing so convenient as having the Eagles rescue Sam and Frodo at the end. They were no longer at odds with Sauron as the latter had been already defeated with the destruction of the ring. So the supposed jam they were in is that they were near the top of Mt. Doom, plumb exhausted from their travails, and recuperating their strength.

Your argument holds up better in the other incident in which Azog corners the dragon slayers on the cliff in THE HOBBIT."

Yes, the eagles appear on demand any number of times during the Hobbit, but they also do so in LotR.

Here are the inconvenient facts:

1) The eagles were not above meddling in the petty affairs of Middle Earth

2) The eagles can fly farther, faster and higher than anything else in Middle Earth. Not only can't they be hit by any weapon from the ground, they can't even be seen by anyone on the ground. Legolas with his supernatural vision can barely see them flying overhead when he's standing on a mountain.

3) Sauron is not omniscient. He can't see everywhere and he can't see everything. Tolkien says this again and again in the books.

4) Aragorn et al create a distraction to hold Sauron's attention and keep him from looking for Frodo. This works because he can't see everywhere all the time.

5) That same tactic would have worked if they had used a diversion to keep Sauron from looking for eagles.

6) The ringwraiths can not fly. Until their horses are drowned, they are strictly earthbound.

7) Taking advantage of the time when Sauron does not have an aerial defense would have been a great idea.

8) People can stand next to and even carry Frodo without feeling the ring's corrupting influence. A member of each race physically carries Frodo at some point in the book and none of them are turned. Only Gollum and Boromir are tempted by its power.

9) The eagles are champions of nature and enemies of anything that corrupts nature, which is why they get involved in the war in the Hobbit. Sauron is the ultimate corrupter of nature, so this goes directly to the heart of the eagles' stated belief system.

10) Tolkien was a human being who wrote a book in his spare time. He made some mistakes. Nobody's perfect.


Geoffrey wrote: "I would conjecture that JRR had little respect for US efforts in WWII, during which the trilogy was written. Do I need to explain why? "

You do, because Tolkien explicitly stated numerous times that LotR was NOT a metaphor for WWII.

You can't selectively chose which parts of the author's statements you want to listen to. That's what fundamentalist Christians do with the Bible, which is why I constantly equate the extreme lengths Ringers go to to excuse a plot hole.

It's just a plot hole.

[Geoffrey]

3. Sauron doesn't suspect that Frodo still has the ring, after all how stupid could the Fellowship be to give the role of Ringbearer to a mere Hobbit. He is looking for the Hobbit because he suspects Frodo knows who has the ring.

5. I disagree heartily. Had the Eagles crossed into Mordor he certainly would have been alerted long before. His eye was trained in that direction.

8. And as Faramir is momentarily tempted, but wise enough to realize the dangers to a human, highly susceptible to its power.

You invest too much ability to the Eagles.

[Trike]

Elsewhere in this thread I have mentioned that the eagles need not have taken them to the caldera of Mt. Doom. Even giving the hobbits a lift to the border of Mordor would have been a great help.

I continually find it bizarre that some people can't accept it's just a simple plot hole. It's not the end of the world.

And even if the eagles HAD been used, it's not like the story would have been significantly different. If you're telling a story about a road trip somewhere and the car breaks down forcing the heroes to take the bus, it doesn't change the entirety of the tale, just one small aspect of it.

When Gandalf is rescued, the eagle says he can't take him all the way to his destination because he is suited for "carrying messages not burdens." They also mention they are afraid of coming too close to men because of arrows. Right there you have two built-in limitations for the eagles: they can't carry a load great distances and they are vulnerable to attack even by arrows.

At best, using the eagles would have allowed them to avoid Moria or something. The things Tolkien wanted to convey in that sequence could just as easily have been retold in a different way with a scene involving eagles.

You invest too little faith in Tolkien as a storyteller.

[Gary]

Trike wrote: "I continually find it bizarre that some people can't accept it's just a simple plot hole. It's not the end of the world."

I find it bizarre that some people feel that they need to make themselves look profound by pointing out this plot hole as if it is some glaring inconsistency when it was clearly addressed in the books.

The Fellowship deliberately set off with only 9 companions to avoid attracting the attention that even a small unit of warriors may have gotten, and some people think it would be a bright idea to put the ring on the back of the eagles and fly directly towards the abode of the "Unlidded Eye", forever watchful and seeking the ring?

The whole point of moving the ring quietly on the ground was to hide it from Sauron and to make him search for the person who would claim the ring for themselves. The last thing anyone wanted was for Sauron to realise that they sought to take the ring to Mt Doom ("The fact that we would seek to destroy it has not entered his darkest dreams")

Certainly there are plot holes and other inconsistencies in Tolkien, however this is one that only makes sense to people with only a rudimentary understanding of the plot.

[Geoffrey]

Sauron was hell bent on world domination. As power hungry as he was, he wouldn't have imagined that anyone would want to destroy the Ring. This is the weakness of those paranoid seeking power. They assume either that a person is weak and doesn't want any power because of lack of self confidence or if is a self-assured power seeker would want to own the Ring to have the power he had in the second age.

[Trike]

Did you miss the part where a giant eagle flies directly toward Mordor?

Apparently so. A giant eagle flies directly toward Mordor and nothing happens to it. It's called out in the book. Legolas remarks upon it.

Which underscores, yet again, why hitching a ride for a day wouldn't be a problem.

Why is "hiding on the ground" preferable to "hiding in the air"? There is literally no evidence that Sauron ever looks up. There is plenty of evidence that he isn't omniscient. He sees Frodo numerous times yet continues losing track of him.

Each time he catches a glimpse of Frodo, the sneaky little hobbit is closer to Mordor. Yet Sauron only ever sends 9 guys after him and it never occurs to him they might destroy the ring.

So how, exactly, would this change if you put it up in the air for a little while?

Every time this topic comes up, I am more convinced than ever of two things:

1) this story would have had yet even more richness added to it if Tolkien had used the eagles and come up with some way to prevent them from getting anywhere near to Mordor,

and

2) people who reject that this is a plot hole are more dogmatic than fundamentalist Christians.

[Howard]

Why is it important to you that people who like the story as it is must acknowlege your assertion that Tolkien's failure to include the eagles as integral elements in the main plot line represents a hole in the plot?

Had Tolkien done so it would simply have been a different story. It would likely have significantly changed the struggle experienced by the characters in the story. If Tolkien had included the eagles in the story as you suggest, and the eagles made it easier to succeed, the story would have been much shorter. If he included them and they failed, no doubt the plot could have continued until the final goal was achived despite their failure, but then it would still be a different story. One more to your liking no doubt.

I, like many orhers, am happy with the story Tolkien told as he told it. Could the story have been told differently? Certainly! But this is the story we have, and I for one am very happy with it as it is.

[Will]

Who is to say Sauron didn't have spies on the lookout for suspicious movement from the Eagles since their latest involvements in the story?
It would have been way too risky. They needed to make sure Sauron didn't suspect they would try to destroy it and they had to be as subtle as possible.
Using the Eagles to fly right in is the opposite of subtle, no matter how high they could soar.

[Eric]

It's because we must acknowledge that the Eagles only show up when the plot requires them to. LET THE HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU!

[Rachel]

This is far less of a plot hole in the books vs. the movie. In the movie it seems that Gandalf is a superhero of sorts and pretty much commands the eagles. In the book it's clear that he's relatively minor in the council of wizards (at least at the beginning) and his relationship to the eagles in pretty tenuous. He's helped the king of the eagles once, long ago, but the eagles as a whole are their own separate race, not at the beck and call of any powers that be.
The point being, they aren't very reliable allies. They show up in a couple of big battles because ultimately they are on the side of good. But the help they give is very much on their terms. Gandalf being able to call the eagles and command them to carry the ring (or Frodo, or anyone) as far as Mordor would be very out of character for the books.

[Geoffrey]

Hmmmm. Sounds like the USA and the two WWs.

[Trike]

Ryan wrote: "Mark wrote: "Simple if he had, Lord of the rings would have been a very short story."

Ha. That's a good point."

No it wouldn't. It would simply have a different travelogue in one part.

And I have to say, not having a full-on air duel between eagles and dragons is a massive missed opportunity. Imagine Sam and Frodo having to hanging on for dear life as they swooped and dove and battled!

That would've been great.

Also, from a story standpoint on the whole try/fail cycle, it could have set them back to square one, so they would just have to pick up the trek from where they tried to fly. So you essentially have the exact same story you have now, but with extra added awesomeness.

[Gary]

Trike wrote: "And I have to say, not having a full-on air duel between eagles and dragons is a massive missed opportunity. Imagine Sam and Frodo having to hanging on for dear life as they swooped and dove and battled!

That would've been great.

Also, from a story standpoint on the whole try/fail cycle, it could have set them back to square one, so they would just have to pick up the trek from where they tried to fly. So you essentially have the exact same story you have now, but with extra added awesomeness"

Not really, what you would have then is the actual plot hole referred to in this discussion!

The entire point of the Lord of the Rings is that Sauron could not imagine that anyone would consciously reject the power offered by the Ring, and that by humility and sacrifice a hero succeeded where violence and power would fail.

"He is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wielding the Ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down and take his place. That we should wish to cast him down and have no one in his place is not a thought that occurs to his mind. That we should try to destroy the Ring itself has not yet entered into his darkest dream."

The only reason Frodo managed to get so near Mordor was that Sauron was convinced he would have time from the point that someone claimed the ring, to locate them and take it off them. If he actually realised that they were trying to destroy the ring he would have sealed up Mount Doom, put an army around it and dedicated himself to hunting it down instead of preparing to fight the new Ring Lord in Rohan or Gondor.

Therefore if Frodo was dumb enough to take the Ring of Power into the skies and attempt to fly directly into Mordor under the gaze of the Lidless Eye that does not sleep. Well there is no way he would then subsequently succeed by sneaking it in when he has already tipped his hand to the enemy.

[Ermit]

J.D. wrote: "That's more or less it. They were faster than the Nazgul, and anyway, when it would have been discussed, at the council, the 9 didn't have their wings yet. Flying from the misty mountains or wherev..."
Well yea, they would have totally manage to get the work done that way. It would have been a good idea, less drama and he (JRR) could occupy writting about more pleassurable things.