The Return of the King
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Why didn't Gandalf take the ring to Mount Doom on the back of an eagle.
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Geoffrey
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Jul 29, 2012 07:51PM
I agree with you on that one, Matthew. Such an interpretation would have made Tolkein out to be a racist. Remember, mythology was his bent. He lived 24 hours of the day with trolls, leprechauns and wraiths.
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No, these things in the book are not stand-ins for real world entities. Moria is not Istanbul, Dwarves are not Muslims, the elves are not Jews. The dwarves are drarves. The elves are elves.
Catherine wrote: "I can't decide if JRRT would be rolling on the floor laughing his rear off about now, or flattered at all the mental energy that is being consumed in this thread."He'd be amused, no doubt. Especially since he publicly said forgetting the giant eagles was a goof on his part.
I don't know why people keep ignoring that part. I'm sure someone could find the quote if they looked. But it kind of settles the issue and makes all these complex rationalizations seem rather silly.
For starters, the Ring would've taken conrtol of Gandalf upon touchign him and turned him evil, so that wouldn't hav eworked. Also, if you stop and count, there are the same number of nazgul (or more) than there are eagles. If they had tried to fly the ring in, the Nazgul would have fought off the eagles and they never would have had the chance. The only reason the eagles were able to hodl the nazgul off at the end was because The witch king was killed earlier.
Le sigh. The Nazgul were stuck on the ground until later. Sauron can't see everywhere. Powerful people were often *near* the ring without desiring it.Therefore this argument is invalid.
Also, Tolkien publicly said he accidentally forgot about the eagles. That's the only explanation you need, really.
Actually it would have been extremely easy for Sauron to see the eagles in flight. It was mountains he couldn`t see over.
Tolkien may have not considered the eagles, but that doesn't mean that the eagles could have worked. We know that Sauron had flying creatures. We don't know how many he had. Maybe he should have addressed the issue, but not having addressed the issue doesn't address anything.
Robert wrote: "Tolkien may have not considered the eagles, but that doesn't mean that the eagles could have worked. We know that Sauron had flying creatures. We don't know how many he had. Maybe he should have ad..."He addressed it afterwards when someone asked him. He basically said, "Whoops. My bad."
Sajjad wrote: "From an allegorical standpoint, the twenty rings stand for Power (3 for the Elves, 9 for Men, and 7 for the Dwarves). Power, I believe, refers to any force a being may exert on others, be it spiri..."I'm afraid your putting words in Tolkien's mouth there. Tolkien himself saw little use for allegory, as he's stated in the past very openly, and he never wrote LotR with the intention of it being an allegory. (so, sorry Matthew, but I'm afraid your sources were off as well). Whatever influence may have worked their way into his mythology, (biblical, mythological or otherwise) it was still written to tell a story, and that's it's primary function.
"I should like to say something here with reference to the many opinions or guesses that I have received or have read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a tale-teller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them, and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them. As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving... As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical. As the story grew it put down roots (into the past) and threw out unexpected branches..."
From the foreword, straight from the man himself.
It's interesting to read all the different ideas about allegory. I remember hearing somewhere that it was an allegory of World War Two. (And thinking about it, I could actually make a decent arguement for it being one.) I guess not. It's just an epic story that stands on it's own, and there's nothing wrong with that!
Trike wrote: "He addressed it afterwards when someone asked him. He basically said, "Whoops. My bad.""You've mentioned a few times that Tolkien admitted to this plothole. Would you mind linking here to that? I'm interested in reading what he had to say about it.
Imagine if Galdalf just took the ring...An all powerful,ring bearing Gandalf vs. Sauron/Mordor!? I'd pay to see that. Gandalf would've brought like 20 Balrogs, a couple of big ass Smaug's, an army of Eagles, Sarumon and probably some Ent's right to the Black Gate(tree Beard was manipulated by two little Hobbits, I'm sure a ring bearing Gandalf could do the same). Who knows, maybe even Men. Did you see that little "display" during FOTR when Gandalf starts speakin the Black Tongue AT the Ring? Elrond was ready to s--t his pants! He sure does have a ton of heart to resist temptation, especially when he knows how much of a bad-ass he can become if he takes the ring.
Stepdaddy82 wrote: "Imagine if Galdalf just took the ring...An all powerful,ring bearing Gandalf vs. Sauron/Mordor!? I'd pay to see that. Gandalf would've brought like 20 Balrogs, a couple of big ass Smaug's, an army ..."I won't even bother pointing out the flaws in that comment, but suffice it to say that Gandalf would have become as bad or worse than Sauron if he had taken the ring.
Well, I'm really sure you REALLY want to read a book where Frodo hops on a eagle and in one day flies to Mordor, drops the ring...end of story! Just as if Gimli's axe had shattered the ring, if it were as easy as that there would be no story!
It would have made the story too short.
Drama trumps logic, and no fictional characters can be smarter or have greater foresight than the author depicting them. I think it's plausible that this scenario never occurred to Tolkien, but even if it did he would have kept silent about it in order to preserve the integrity and value of the story he wanted to tell.In my humble opinion, an airborne dash to Mount Doom could have excellent chances of success - certainly far better than the stealthy crawl decided upon. The dust- and smoke-filled air would protect the eagles (I'd send several to minimize risks) from discovery. Plus, and this is central, Sauron never expected anyone to want to destroy the ring.
I think Gandalf could certainly withstand the power of the ring for the short time this alternative quest would require him to carry it. If not, then send Frodo along too, he's a little fellow, right?
No one commands the great eagles. However, they can and do help out when the need is the greatest. It doesn't make sense that they'd aid as shock troops in battle, but not fly to a volcano and back with one or two passengers.
Does anyone else hate family guy for spreading this stupid shit rumor "Why didn't they just fly the bird there and save two books" If you ever thought that then you are not a true reader!
Again, everyone, the eye on the top of Mt. Doom would have espied the ring as soon as it was in flight. It was not fixated on the ground because the thought that the Hobbits would come by foot across Mordor was so preposterous. Hello, is anyone listening?
I suppose it might be a question of universe, Geoffrey. In the movies, yes, there is a physical Eye of Sauron (though located on top of Barad-dûr quite a distance to the east and from a western angle thus conveniently obscured by smoke from Mt. Doom). However, I for one never quite thought of the Eye of Sauron to be that kind of... device, for lack of a better word. I always thought it was Sauron's power of magically penetrating or spying out whatever secrets he wanted unveiled. Yes, there would still be a risk of detection, and Sauron surely had plenty of powerful servants assigned the single task of counter-espionage. But I think the few hours of flight through the smoky air would be a safer approach than to penetrate Mordor's defenses on foot, even stealthy Hobbit feet. :)
Considering the power of Sauron, Petter, I doubt the smoke from Mt. Doom would have impeded his vision of the approaching eagles. They would not have had a chance against the Nazgul or any other flying nasties. No, I will stick with the Hobbits and their overland route.
Well, whoever of us is right in terms of efficiency, Geoffrey, I will concede that your method make (made) for far better drama. :)
Indeed, Crystal. May I ask what you think are the most important aspects of the story? Deeper meanings, and so on? Things that required an epic quest rather than a quick solution?
I recall reading somewhere that Sauron was capable of controlling the weather in Mordor, hence if the Eagles tried to enter, they'd simply be zapped by lightning or blown away by hurricane force winds.The Eagles were also either Maiar or "spirits" (debatable), but they were unquestionably servants of Manwe. Seeing as how Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, Manwe's greatest enemy, I'm sure Sauron wouldn't let an Eagle fly a second in Mordor without retaliation, either through weather manipulation or dispatching fell beasts.
Geoffrey wrote: "They would not have had a chance against the Nazgul or any other flying nasties..."What specific flying nasties are you referring to, Geoffrey?
And I think it has already been established on this thread that at the time of the Council of Elrond and for some time after, the Ring Wraiths were crawling back to Mordor to be 'reborn'. There were no flying Nazgul at this time, so they could not have posed a threat.
Will wrote: "Trike wrote: "He addressed it afterwards when someone asked him. He basically said, "Whoops. My bad.""You've mentioned a few times that Tolkien admitted to this plothole. Would you mind linking here to that? I'm interested in reading what he had to say about it."
I can't do that, because I read it 25 years ago in a book about Tolkien. I'm sure someone could search for it online and I'm kind of surprised no one has.
To forestall the obvious follow-up question, I'll just ask, "Why should I?"
...
Edit: apparently the book I read quoted one of Tolkien's letters to a movie producer. I couldn't find that book, but The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien has the same info.
Kristin wrote: "Well, I'm really sure you REALLY want to read a book where Frodo hops on a eagle and in one day flies to Mordor, drops the ring...end of story!Just as if Gimli's axe had shattered the ring, if it were as easy as that there would be no story!"
Of course, Tolkien could've solved the problem by writing, "And the Giant Eagles all decided to be Giant Doodyheads by going on va-kay to Bermuda just when the Fellowship needed them most."
Because, as I said, I'm interested in actually reading/hearing what he said and I'd rather see for myself what he said rather than what someone else claims he said. I figured you would have the source handy since you keep making this claim, but my google search did not reveal any positive results.The closest this I could find was this, which seems to imply the opposite (that he had good reasons not to employ them in the mission to destroy the ring):
"The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness."
― Letter 210, J.R.R. Tolkien
Here is an interesting blog that has an interview with a Tolkein "expert" about this very subject:http://news.mymiddleearth.com/2011/06...
Geoffrey wrote: "Again, everyone, the eye on the top of Mt. Doom would have espied the ring as soon as it was in flight. It was not fixated on the ground because the thought that the Hobbits would come by foot acro..."Except that's not how the "Eye of Sauron" worked. He was tricked in the book, remember, and even after he spied Frodo directly Sauron lost track of him... for something like 700 pages. He's not "all-seeing," merely super-powerful.
Crystal wrote: "If it were that simple there wouldn't have even been a story to tell...."It does present the obvious story idea for someone today, though: your [generic group] manages to take [magical object] directly to [place of destruction] immediately -- except it doesn't work! Now what?
That would make for a kick-ass story.
Christopher wrote: "I recall reading somewhere that Sauron was capable of controlling the weather in Mordor, hence if the Eagles tried to enter, they'd simply be zapped by lightning or blown away by hurricane force winds.The Eagles were also either Maiar or "spirits" (debatable), but they were unquestionably servants of Manwe. Seeing as how Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, Manwe's greatest enemy, I'm sure Sauron wouldn't let an Eagle fly a second in Mordor without retaliation, either through weather manipulation or dispatching fell beasts."
Interesting. I didn't know Sauron could control the weather there.
Interesting summation here, although he doesn't address the fact that the Nazgul weren't always flying, nor what the Eagles' lack of motivation might be. I mean, couldn't Don Henley talk Glen Frey and the rest of the guys into a benefit concert?http://www.sean-crist.com/personal/pa...
See also: http://www.examiner.com/article/tolki...
Because if Gandalf had done that, the book would've only been 20 pages long.
...I don't think it was his journey.
Trike wrote: "Interesting summation here, although he doesn't address the fact that the Nazgul weren't always flying, nor what the Eagles' lack of motivation might be. I mean, couldn't Don Henley talk Glen Frey ..."The first article counter-argues the point "The Valar would prohibit the eagles from such a direct intervention against Sauron."
Remember, however, that the Valar also gave limits to what the Istari could do in Middle-Earth.
The article states: "Given all this heavy involvement, it would be extremely surprising if the Valar specifically prohibited the eagles from flying the Ringbearer into Mordor. Tolkien nowhere mentions such a prohibition."
But that was exactly the kind of prohibition levied on Gandalf and the rest of the Istari. Given that the Eagles serve Manwe, is it not reasonable to say that they were given the same limits as the Istari?
Gandalf was allowed to fight, just like the Eagles were, but I believe neither of them were allowed to do anything they wanted to defeat Sauron. Sort of like the Ancients of Stargate SG-1: they often walked a very fine line.
Mordor has awesome anti-air artillery and eagles aren't stealth.
Chloé wrote: "And because gandalf found the ring too powerful for him and didnt want to hold it"Good point!
Probably because a wizard, a couple of men, and some hobbits riding a half dozen giant eagles straight at mount doom just a few days after the ring bearer had arrived at Rivendell would have raised an eyebrow or two.
Simple. If the eagles had done it, there would have been a novella, not a three volume epic
The whole purpose was to not let Sauron be sure where the ring was, and certainly not to let him realise that they were going to destroy it. Sauron was waiting for a rival to claim it and preparing to pounce on the new lord and reclaim the ring. If suddenly the Eagles started flying towards Mordor that would get his attention, and quickly he would sense the ring. Then he would realise that the enemy was doing the unthinkable in trying to destroy the ring and would place an impenetrable guard on the Sammath Naur and set all his forces in harassing an pursuing the Eagles.Hence game over.
This is why sneaking the ring into Mordor while Sauron was prepared for a bold obvious move was successful.
You mean Sam. Sam's the hero."
Exactly, Sam is the single one character able to take the ring and give it away.
The book would have been too short.
0.They couldn't demand the Eagles to do it for them as you don't demand from an angel to help you.It's a damn miracle in the end just to save the heroes.He could just let them die and there'd be no problem.But ok,let's ignore that.1.They couldn't drop it in the volcano.Either it had no lava in the surface,or it was not hot enough there(he didn't forge it on the surface but in that cave,only there it could be destroyed).Besides,it'd require luck to find lava not ground and the ring could even change its course(it could become heavier,change size etc).
2.So they'd have to land and enter the cave. But a ringbearer on giant eagle would've spotted miles away from Mordor.
3.Sauron wouldn't ignore the eagle with the ringbearer.He'd probably think he's coming to challenge him so he'd gather his best defenses.The "dragons" of the raiths were ready,but they used horses for stealth,you know.
4.But let's say they landed AND defeated any defences.No one(neither good little Frodo nor badass Isildur)could probably throw the ring there as it turned out.Someone would claim it.
So,the story couldn't end that way.
Because, even though it is not said explicitly during the council of Elrond, it is understood implicitly. The leaders of the council are quick to remind the council that brute force and power will not help in their quest to destroy the ring. Their only hope, if there is any at all is in secrecy. I think most people use a strange kind of reasoning in the sense that they see that the ring is destroyed in the end - and therefore that it is inevitable that it must be destroyed. If it is to happen, why not shorten the trip? The readers are also aware of the fact that the Eagles were able to attack the Nazgul and that they were able to fly into Mordor in the end. Why not just do it from the start?
Well, first of all the council does not have the honor of knowing the end of the book. In their world the quest seems pretty doomed whatever they choose to do. Using the ring themselves is foolish and could make greater damage than good. Hiding the ring would only solve the problem for the time being. Taking the ring to the west seems to be a possibility but is ruled out since it would most probably not be received there and since the ring is - after all - Middle Earth's problem. The only option is to destroy the ring in the fires of mount doom.
Once again, it is explicitly said over and over again that power will not avail them in their quest to destroy the ring - in fact this is something that Gandalf uses as an argument to why they should take Pippin and Merry along on the road instead of a glorious and powerful Elf lord such as Glorfindel. It is impossible to fight fire with fire! The only hope - as small as it is - lies in secrecy. There is no power that the council possesses that can fight its way to Mount Doom, Glorfindel, Elrond, Gandalf nor the Eagles could do it.
Now, people see in the end that the Eagles were able to fight the Nazgul and assume the Eagles could've done the same carrying the ring bearer. The whole point of the last battle was that it was one last doomed attempt to fight against evil. The battle and the eagles presence there was one last attempt to create a diversion so that Frodo and Sam - if they were still alive - could have an easier path to mount doom. And if they were dead, it was just one last stand against evil.
Using the Eagles from the start as an Air shuttle for the hobbits would pretty much destroy the only hope they have in secrecy. When the Eagles flew over Mordor in the end of Return of the King Sauron was already defeated and his lands were emptied. We cannot assume that they would've been able to do so in the height of Sauron's power, having Sauron's eye fixed on the ring bearer on the back of one of the Eagles, fighting both the Nazgul and all the armies of Mordor.
But there were no servants of Sauron in the vicinity of mount doom, couldn't the Eagles just have flown high up, avoided all the armies on land, fought off the Nazgul and landed near mount doom?
Sure...or, as soon as the Dark Lord knew the Eagles were coming, carrying the ring bearar - probably even before they reached Mordor - but say even if he only found out when they reached the borders, he could've just sent legions upon legions towards mount doom and used the Nazgul to hold up the Eagles. Not to mention that Sauron himself and the ring could've used their power to corrupt the Eagles.
After all we do know that Elrond and Gandalf feared having the ring in their possession and we do also know that the Ring's power grew more and more once it was closer to its master. The outcome would've most probably been that Sauron would've either killed the Eagles and took back the ring, or that the Eagles would've killed the ringbearer and claimed it as their own. Either way it would have been a disaster.
The point of going with the long shot plan that they went with in the book is that - let me repeat myself once more - secrecy was their only advantage, that they "innocent" hobbits were an unknown factor to Sauron and that the hobbits seemed to show some sort of resilience to the ring's power, even though it could corrupt a hobbit too.
I imagine, if the "Eagles-plan" would've been brought up explicitly during the council of Elrond it would've been rejected as one of the more foolish ideas and Gandalf or Elrond would've advised the idea creator to listen up more and get the fact that no power they possess can fight with the will of Sauron.
Now I really have to stop hanging around on goodreads and go back to my studies. Adios.
Iggy wrote: "Because, even though it is not said explicitly during the council of Elrond, it is understood implicitly..."Iggy, I thought the first half of your explanation is as good as any we have seen, and after seeing huge amounts of evidence from both camps, I have to agree with you.
But I think you should have stopped with "...nor the Eagles could do it." After that, you weaken your argument: The Nazgul were not flying at the time of the Council of Elrond, so this is no barrier to them.
Second, Sauron's Eye is limited. It passed right over Frodo several times, and just by ducking his head it missed him. Therefore the chances of it seeing anything beyond the edge of Mordor are slim to none, I reckon. He probably would have spotted them pretty soon over the border, though.
Third, have you ever climbed a mountain? It would have taken the Eagles scant hours from being detected to reaching the summit. If, as you say, "there were no servants of Sauron in the vicinity of mount doom," it would have taken them way longer to get there.
Perhaps JRRT should have mentioned the Eagles, but he does leave many pointers as to the limits of the plan, so in balance, i think you are right about the factors that stopped the Council asking the Eagles in the first place.
Evan wrote: "I would love to have heard Mr. Tolkien's reasoning behind it. Surely he gave it consideration, based on the intricate details throughout the entire story. When I began reading The Hobbit forty year..."Evan, as to you loving LOTR and not being able to find its equal: Peter Jackson said much the same. He would year after year have his eyes open for someone to make LOTR into a movie. He wanted someone to make it so he could watch it. After thinkig this for many years he felt the only way he could see it was to do it himself.
This is an old question. The best discussion I read, Periannath. Also has very funny You Tube animation acting out 'The Eagle' scenario.Article talks about how Eagles are divine -
drawing from Silmarillion - [Eagles are] servants of Manwë Súlimo, King of the Valar (greater gods or archangels), making them quite literally deus ex machina. The Eagles provide help when Manwë wishes them to do so, and only then."Similiar question, when God is all powerful why allow a Satan, or why do good people die.
It is not for the powerful Gandalph or Gods servants to assume power else they become what they seek to defeat.
Um... Because there wouldn't have been a book.
1) Sauron would have seen them. 2) The Nazgul would have killed the eagles.
3) The eagles were able to approach Mt. Doom because Sauron had been destroyed.
4) Gandalf would have been corrupted by the ring.
5) The eagles themselves may have been corrupted.
6) Gandalf refused to carry the ring. It's in the book. By the time he became Gandalf the White, the ring was lost to him.
Lostshadows wrote: "J.D. wrote: "A force of eagles could take the steeds of the nazgul, Gandalf would ride the front one, shooting lazer beams"Go back to LotR & The Hobbit and look at how much magic Gandalf actually..."
he does throw fireballs in the hobbit
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