The Sword and Laser discussion
Why Do Fantasy Characters Always Have British Accents?
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I think that they nailed it pretty well:People want a fantasy accent to be "different" and one of the British Accents fills that bill while not being so different that we can't understand it.
Perhaps it has partly to do with the fact that nothing close to the regional American accents existed 400 years ago in what would "pass" as the era of fantasy. I mean you ~could~ make a movie where the heroes go into the city and are accosted by traders speaking in a thick Brooklyn accent, and then travel off to farmlands where everyone has a drawl, but the familiarity would probably be jarring.
Of course it's not just there. Play Star Wars The Old Republic. If you're a rebel you sound mostly midwestern and if you're an Imperial you sound British.
Standard cliches for aspiring authors- Mild accent = good
Thick accent = evil
Large/no deformity = side kick for good
Large with/deformity = henchman for evil
Beard= wisdom
Sexy cartoon= not really bad, just drawn that way
(sorry I got side tracked)
Rob wrote: "Perhaps it has partly to do with the fact that nothing close to the regional American accents existed 400 years ago in what would "pass" as the era of fantasy."British accents didn't exist 400 years ago either. Further back, they would've been speaking Middle English, which isn't even pronounced the same. The idea that people in a fantasy world that's equivalent to the 11th Century should be speaking RP is totally absurd.
British accents didn't exist 400 years ago either. Further back, they would've been speaking Middle English, which isn't even pronounced the same. The idea that people in a fantasy world that's equivalent to the 11th Century should be speaking RP is totally absurdYes but the typical American Audience doesn't think that way. To them people have sounded the same in England since the Romans were there building bridges and tunnels. We know that's not the case but it really is all about perception.
Me? I think it would be kind of funny to have all the hobbits sound like Kennedys', or the Dwarfs sound like they're from Little Italy, rather than the usual fare. But I dont' think we'll see that anytime soon....
Strange,When I read fantasy I imagine all my characters speaking with a Jar-Jar Binks accent.
Dwarves had American accents in Dragon Age, and it was off-putting to some. I remember they mentioned it on Penny Arcade.I've always felt bad for American actors. Look at the cast of Game of Thrones - except for Peter Dinklage it's largely brits. Americans don't get the fun fantasy stuff.
Unless you're doing an Uwe Boll movie, of course. See this movie featuring Ray Liotta and Burt Reynolds. I didn't.
I suppose you could say that American is a 'modern' language/accent, whereas the English language (although not in its current form) has been around for a while. I think the main reason has to be that fantasy has a medieval setting/aesthetic, and since the modern American people didn't exist then, looking to England makes sense.
:)
What makes you think modern American accents are any further removed from Shakespearean or Middle English than RP, Scots or Irish? It's not like the Jawjaw drawl sprang up sui generis -- it's as derived from English spoken in England in the 1600s and earlier as RP or Cockney.
Yes but if all fantasy books, TV series and films were in realistic language no one would be able to watch it, it wouldn't make any sense.I thought this thread was about English accents in fantasy anyway? :P
Doesn't help that Sean Bean is cast (and usually dies) in quite a few fantasy things. :D
Warren wrote: "Agree on the British part. Three Little Pigs Old English
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yyd17a..."
That's not Old English. That's not even Middle English.
We do have fairy tales from ME, and while the spelling and pronunciation is odd to modern sensibilities, the vocabulary isn't that complex, particularly in works that weren't composed for nobility.
I think it's because most fantasy follows the template set by Tolkien, and Middle Earth is very British.One notable exception that jumps to mind is the Alvin Maker books, which are very deliberately American.
Jess wrote: "I think it's because most fantasy follows the template set by Tolkien, and Middle Earth is very British."Is it? Most of Tolkien's fictional languages are not very like English at all.
I'd really like to know where the dwarves with Scottish accents trope got started. It sure wasn't Tolkien--his dwarven tongue was based on Semitic languages.
Almost nothing is performed in true "old english."So arguing accents is really just arguing personal preferences.
It does raise some interesting issues when selecting actors.
For instance; I haven't seen the movie "Season of the Witch"
Nicolas Cage obliviously doesn't have an English accent.
Does that detract from the story?
(I'm not trying to start an argument.
I'd really like to know if the film is worth renting).
Warren, I watched Season of the Witch, and I thought it was good. Cage doesn't affect a British accent, but he sounds authentic for the movie. More of a non-accent than anything else, so it didn't detract from the story. Ron Perlman sounded a bit too New York, although he was good in his role. My opinion on the original question, I have to admit that it just sounds wrong to me when I watch a historical fantasy movie and they characters sound like modern Americans (especially Californian, Southern, or New Yorker/New Jerseyish). America is a relatively young nation, and it's hard to associate American accents with antiquity. If they sound British or somehow foreign, it fits better.
If American is a "modern" language, do all science fiction characters have American accents ?
In some ways American English is closer to 17C English thatn British English. As to accents if you watch films from the 1940s American accents were much lighter and in many cases indistinguishable from British. Until the late 1970s regional accents were almost unheard of on British TV.
Most Americans trying for British go too plumy and posh or ridiculous mockney.
Gwyneth Paltrow and Renee Zellwegger make me cringe but Robert Downey Jr is surprisingly good.
Fantasy with an american accent? Forget Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves. The best example of this is Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. It was jarring in Robin Hood because only one person had the accent, if everyone does it, it feels more natural.
Warren wrote: "For instance; I haven't seen the movie "Season of the Witch"Nicolas Cage obliviously doesn't have an English accent.
Does that detract from the story?
(I'm not trying to start an argument.
I'd really like to know if the film is worth renting). "
In a word "no".
An as to the accents question.. "'cos we're better at it mate. Know what I mean? Nudge, nudge, wink, wink say no more."
Peter Dinklage does a very convincing English accent (I didn't even realise he was American until I saw him interviewed). Russell Crowe in Robin Hood.... Well, let's just say he could span continents in a single sentence!In my head, most fantasy characters have English accents, although dwarfs tend to be Welsh, and 'barbarians' tend to be Scottish. National stereotyping? Maybe, but certainly influenced by the likes of Rob Roy and Braveheart.
In my mind, SF characters are much more cosmopolitan. American predominates, but British is not out of place (think Red Dwarf or Dr Who), or Australian (Farscape), Chinese even..
what I want to know is why do the bad guys always have british accents?!!! take for example all the sith toons in the new star wars game tor, all evil all with british accents, why ?!!! or should i not ask ?!! lol
Jane wrote: "what I want to know is why do the bad guys always have british accents?!!! take for example all the sith toons in the new star wars game tor, all evil all with british accents, why ?!!! or should i..."Why do so many good English actors only play villains in Hollywood?
Because a British bad guy has more panache than an American one. :)
I believe the war of independence has permanently scarred the american psyche. Y'all fine folks haven't gotten over that yet. Until you do...Peter Cushing and Alan Rickman. Which isn't entirely horrible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRnP0p...
Esther wrote: "Why do so many good English actors only play villains in Hollywood?"1. The money's good
2. Villains are more fun to play than heroes
3. The English don't mind being beaten in the final reel (let's face it, we English have elevated Not Winning to an art form)
Have you noticed, when a British actor plays the heroic lead, they fake an American accent?
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Because a British bad guy has more panache than an American one. :)"It's for this reason that George Lucas picked Peter Cushing to play Grand Moff Tarkin in Star Wars. Could you imagine someone like Burt Lancaster (also born in 1913 like Cushing) or Alann Ladd (ditto) playing the evil Imperial Death Star commander?
As to using certain accents for fantasy novels, I believe that it all came about because of Tolkein linking certain parts of the UK with certain races (ie. Scotland - Dwarves, Hobbits - Irish, Elves - Wales..)
Ironically I've gotten used to North American (US and Canada) and UK accents in fantasy and sci-fi movies/tv shows/games, but I find it incredibly jarring when I hear a broad Australian accent in the same places.. (doubly ironic since I have been told that I have the broadest 'Aussie' accent any of my US/UK friends have ever heard....)
Tim Roth, Andrew Lincoln, Damian Lewis,Johnny Lee Miller great British actors who speak with an American accent when they play the protagonist in US produced shows.
Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Because a British bad guy has more panache than an American one. :)"I like your thinking!
For me a lot of SF&F tends to be Euro-centric, so that's part of the prevalence.An apt article for me is http://www.salon.com/2012/04/01/is_ga...
Brian wrote: "As to using certain accents for fantasy novels, I believe that it all came about because of Tolkein linking certain parts of the UK with certain races (ie. Scotland - Dwarves, Hobbits - Irish, Elves - Wales..)"I know for certain Tolkien is not responsible for the Scottish dwarves stereotype. His dwarven language was based on Semitic languages and he himself commented on similarities between the dwarves of Middle-Earth and Jews. I'm pretty sure the Scottish dwarves thing comes from Raymond E. Feist, I just can't confirm it.
Joe wrote: I'm pretty sure the Scottish dwarves thing comes from Raymond E. Feist, I just can't confirm it. Feist's cosmology (well, the Midkemia part) is actually drawn from D&D lore, which in turn was influenced by a mishmash of various literature (Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, Tolkien, etc.).
Thinking about Game of Thrones, my first thought was that perhaps they used English accents because of the larger variety available. I've spoken to an American friend of mine (from Oregon, if that makes any difference) and she agrees that in spite of the huge size of America, there are not all that many variations in the accent, and there is such a thing as an 'American' accent, as oppose to many depending on state and location within state etc. Even though England is much smaller, there is a massive difference in accents even between towns a short distance apart, so using some of these accents makes it easier to differentiate characters and locations etc. You can tell the northerners because they speak like northerners, for example. Just a thought.Incidentally, I liked the use of Kevin Costner's American accent in Robin Hood. It always seemed silly to me that we even need to worry about accents in such things, since we don't know for sure how folk sounded anyway and as pointed out above, it wouldn't make sense to copy the accent exactly. I'd much rather listen to an actors own accent than a butchered attempt at another.
I thought they used English accents a lot in Game of Thrones because a lot of it was filmed in Ireland so it was easier and cheaper to get in British Actors than Americans. :) That may be why there are a lot of English accents in fantasy in general. Fantasy is a place of Castles. When comparing England to America on the number of castles England comes out on top. More Fantasy films get shot here using British actors so that is the type of voice people associate with the genre.
I wonder how 'authentic' modern British works as medieval? Someone told me that the 'accent' in the USA is closer to the intonations used by the English speakers who settled in the New World. Not sure how verifiable that is, but I thought I'd put it out there. The fact remains that the American accent sounds like something modern by associattion with the relatively new empire (for want of a better word) and likewise, a British accent can more easily be imagined with the Old World.Whatever the reasoning is, it's pervasive. Joe Abercrombie uses a kind of British quasi-Northern/provincial speak for the Northmen in his Book of the First Law etc. books. "Aye" and that "kind o' thing". I like it. It helps to give them colour.
Did you know that Davy Crockett's parents came from Northern Ireland? So instead of sounding like John Wayne, he was more likely to sound like Rory McIlroy :)
Hey, apparently they spoke with a British accent in Bible times as well. I know this for a FACT because I've see The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, Spartacus, and The Robe. Oh, and don't forget the Life of Brian. My conclusion from all of this is that all humanity outside of modern America, historical or fantasy, spoke with British accents.
Buzz wrote: "Hey, apparently they spoke with a British accent in Bible times as well. I know this for a FACT because I've see The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, Spartacus, and The Robe. Oh, and don't forget the L..."Actually, Colonial Americans spoke modern American English.
Buzz wrote: "Hey, apparently they spoke with a British accent in Bible times as well. I know this for a FACT because I've see The Ten Commandments, Ben Hur, Spartacus, and The Robe. Oh, and don't forget the L..."Wonderful! That made me chuckle. Thanks Buzz.
There's almost certainly some aural and visual shorthand going on as well. Game of Thrones is an obvious example. Southern/Home Counties/RP accents are associated with upper classes/royalty/wealth, which is why all the Lannisters are pretty RP. The Starks have Northern accents, particularly Sean Bean, which "tells" you that they're honest, no-nonsense, tough types who positively revel in the cold and hardship. The rest of the families fall in between depending on their loyalties.I'm painting with enormously large brush strokes here but as a Northern Brit myself it just makes sense to have dark-haired tough people in the North and blonde rich folks down South, even though that's never really been true, given the enormous influence of eg the Normans.
As for villains, RP is just easier to get "right" for an actor than a regional accent, I think. As Ruth says, accents can vary a great deal within a tiny area - I could pick out a dozen in Lancashire alone. There's shorthand going on there too: anyone with major political power in a fantasy tale is going to have a fair bit of wealth and hence a Southern/RP-style accent tells you that as soon as they open their mouths. It is ridiculous stereotyping, of course.
I obviously missed the bit about dwarfs being Scottish. Examples anyone? I always thought they were Welsh (based on their mining backgrounds, presumably...) Pratchett's dwarfs are certainly Welsh. Gimli was Welsh in LOTR, Roy Dotrice reads Tyrion as Welsh in the GoT audiobook...
I'm not sure I agree with the argument that there are less variations of American accents than British ones. A true Virginian accent is very different from a Georgian accent. Texans vary from the Carolinas. Watch the BP/Gulf tourism commercial with people from Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. You can hear the difference. And that's just the variations in the south. Wisconsin is different from Ohio...etc. So I don't think it's necessarily the lack of variation in American accents, but perhaps the lack of awareness that it exists that perhaps makes British accents easier to show class/region differences.
I always assumed it was because outside of the US, a lot of nationals who learn English learn it from the UK. Most non-native English speakers I know have a British accent due to who they learned it from, so I always figured it was that trend.
A couple of my british friends tend to point out that its always the american accents, whereas american friends say its the british accents....To be honest I'd expect most people pick out the strange accents more then the ones they live with in real life.
Buzz wrote: "Hey, apparently they spoke with a British accent in Bible times as well. I know this for a FACT because I've see The Ten Commandments,"Ah, yes, those great British thespians Charlton Heston and Edward G. Robinson.
Michelle wrote: "I'm not sure I agree with the argument that there are less variations of American accents than British ones. A true Virginian accent is very different from a Georgian accent. Texans vary from the C..."That is a difference between states.
I was brought up near Oxford where in the city there was the townspeople's accent and the university accent. And although I lived in a town only 10 miles away we also had a different accent.
I can recognize that there are a lot of variations in accents over a smaller geographical area in the UK than perhaps there are in the US. But there are still differences within a more localized sections; the different accents are not limited to just different states. Take the Discovery show 'Moonshiners'. Those guys have a very strong accent that differs from others in the same part of their states based on their socio-economic status. I guess my point is that I don't think it's a fair argument to say that fantasy favors the British accent over any kind of lack of variations in the States. :)
Eliste wrote: "I always assumed it was because outside of the US, a lot of nationals who learn English learn it from the UK. Most non-native English speakers I know have a British accent due to who they learned it from, so I always figured it was that trend. "It depends on where you are from. In Japan, they learn American English, with a few exceptions like a Japanese guy I knew who adopted an incredibly posh sounding British English accent (but still slipped up when I asked him to spell colour, poor boy).
Tim wrote: "I obviously missed the bit about dwarfs being Scottish. Examples anyone? I always thought they were Welsh (based on their mining backgrounds, presumably...) Pratchett's dwarfs are certainly Welsh. ..."im from scotland i know we are a nation of wee men but ive never heard of the Scottish dwarves stereotype until now.
Why are fantasy world accents British?