City of Bones
discussion
City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)
Oh yeah that ending. That made everything else totally pointless. And trust me it doesn't stop there. In the 4th Bane Chronicles book we meet Will, Tessa and Jem again. Not only did Tessa become even more of a Mary Sue, 25 years as an active Shadowhunter apparently did not result in a single scar or mutilation on Will, and Jem is visiting them all the time and already has black strains in his hair and is apparently still the same person. And all three are so happy together.
I haven't read POV 3 yet. Can't get rid of annoying feeling I've got after reading #2. Gosh... I need to read other books before I can get to #3.Happy 3? What is it with happiness for everyone? Does it really necessary? And Cassie said that she didn't want her books to be like Disney story, with happy ends and prefer a realistic story.
I wonder what is wrong with her...
And Disney is far better!
I wish I could have Allegiant today... but maybe I just continue reading Pandemonium.
I better not say too much about the Bane Chronicles here but should you be interested in the 4th book, here is my review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...And to be honest it looks like book 5 is just as bad.
Personally, I really enjoyed the series. I think Cassandra Clare threw a lot of unexpectd twists in there, which to me, shows great writing. I fell in love with the characters - they're all so different from eachother, they're relatable, and they have layers as opposed to being boring and flat -and I thought the plot was unique. Cassandra Clare managed to come up with her own world, and yet kept it from becoming absolutely ridiculous or too fake. There was almost always some sort of explanation behind things, and when there wasn't, there was a certain sense of imagination and magic which I loved. Not every story has to be 100% realistic; that's what makes them stories. I thought it was so cool how she managed to connect the Downworlders to Angels and Demons. They all have some association, whether it's warlocks being offspring of demons and mundanes, or the Fair Folk being a combiniation of angels and demons; they're all connected in some way. In my opinion, I didn't think it was a copy off other stories. We all live in the same world, which means we know of the same things. This means we're going to use them in our writing. Both Cassandra Clare and J.K. Rowling have heard of magic, so why shouldn't they both be able to use it in their stories? So overall, I love The Mortal Instruments. I love the overall picture; I love the tiny details; I love that Cassandra thought of things that never even touched my mind; I love the pictures she creates for me; I love the humor balanced with the certain element of darkness; I love the twists.Please know, that I totally respect your opinion. There are stories that my friends have loved, that I didn't like it all. So, trust me, I understand that not everyone has the same taste in books.
I guess you are talking just about TMI right?
Andre wrote: "I better not say too much about the Bane Chronicles here but should you be interested in the 4th book, here is my review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...And to be honest it looks li..."
I am speechless.
Understandable, apparently several people started hating Magnus after reading a BC book.
I am practical. My disappointment goes to Cassie, the one who is responsible in providing me such bad novellas. Inconsistencies and bad written characters are her doing.
I would say inconsistencies and badly written characters are her speciality now.
Totally true.Although, I admit there is something that bothers me in a lot of YA books in general. The really popular ones where the girl learns to fight after meeting the warrior. You know what I'm talking about. These "fighters" never come across as trained fighters because they do so many stupid things.
If I were fighting demons, vampires, werewolves, and all sorts of nasty creepy crawlies without Buffy level super strength; I would not let them within arms reach of me. Since I would be at a physiological disadvantage (like Clare states the SHs are always in) I would try to pick the battlefield and create the forward line (guys like Jace) and a support line (supposedly guys like Alec, but Clare doesn't always use him this way). They support line would really be the ones that need to deal damage since something huge and armored would obviously think Mr. Melee in the front row is just really annoying. Its nice that Clare remembered to give her SHs a battle buddy, but she doesn't use them correctly.
Ideally, they would both be skilled in ranged and melee weaponry. They would carry both on them, not one or the other. They would know basic battlefield first aid and carry the supplies. Since this is urban fantasy, they would need to know techniques used in clearing buildings and looking around corners. For example, they would know how to repel or climb, and they would carry mirrors to look around corners where no reflective surfaces are available. Knowledge is key, so they would be trained in recon as well. Numbers and positions go a long way in a fight. Oh, and they would always be prepared in some sense.
In Clare's books, these "trained" Shadow-hunters don't come off that way. Take the scene at the Dumort from CoB. Tactical nightmare. First off, they don't know Simon's position. They're going in at night, which is a terrible idea when fighting vampires. They don't know how many there are. It is a closed environment with very few exits. Jace hardly took the time to limit the amount of variables to make the battlefield more favorable, if it ever came to fighting, which it did.
Then there is appearance. As Andre stated earlier, when fighting all this crazy stuff, you would end up with some serious scars. Clare always describes SH hands have having faint lines from fighting. This is me, laughing. They would be way more banged up than that. Their palms would be callused from using weapons, their knuckles and fingers may be uneven if they've ever broken anything. They would be scratches and scrapes. Some SHs may have chemical burns from anything that spits acid. Not to mention that when one of them hits 40, they'll feel like they're 60. They would be so banged up from all the hard fights of their youth, they would have to stay in good shape just so they could get out of bed in the morning. Even with magic, hard combat takes its toll.
I really don't like Shadow-hunters if you couldn't tell already. Clare really didn't put that much thought into them.
Do they heal fast at least?
Synesthesia wrote: "Do they heal fast at least?"Shadow-hunters? I think so if they use whatever that mark is. Even then, it wouldn't solve everything like basic wear and tear on the body. You're joints would end up completely shot eventually. Look up old athletes for an idea, especially American football players. They've been doing a lot of research on the amount of brain damage they sustain.
The problem is that even the "no superpowers except runes" stuff she did not handle well. In City of Ashes she already let Clary speak of Simon being stronger than her own Shadowhunter muscles despite Valentine in City of Glass lamenting that they have no superpowers except runes. In CoLS Jace and Clary even stand on the side of a gondola without any problem and Clary was not using runes. But still e.g. in Bane Chronicles 3 there was still the swiftness of angels thing.Of course she forgot the classic vampire powers as well.
Now while you might say that the runes heal injuries not just faster but also cleaner and therefore there are less scars and all, there would still be magical afflictions and not to mention mutilations. And it was never even hinted at that runes could regrow lost limbs and all.
That's true. There would be plenty of Shadow-hunters who would need prothesis at some point, unless she came up with some crap way to make their limbs grow back with magic. Magic shouldn't solve everything. There needs to be consequences to this kind of lifestyle. Clare seems to forget that what here characters do is extremely dangerous and destructive. Some them would even have psychological breaks.From what I understand, they use runes for enhanced speed, reflexes, and strength. She does forget this though. Even then, they would still have a disadvantage since these supernatural creatures usually have built in weapons like teeth, claws, and poisons. Hence why I mention they would have to fight intelligently to make up for it.
LeeAnna wrote: "Totally true.Although, I admit there is something that bothers me in a lot of YA books in general. The really popular ones where the girl learns to fight after meeting the warrior. You know what ..."
I think Clare mention Jace's hands having calluses one time. One time.
The angel blood theory is not clearly explained either. How powerful the angel blood should be? Jace can not heal himself without a rune but his blood is powerful enough to create a permanent daylight vampire?
If the theory goes as far as TID, it is even more confusing.
Well I wasn't that advanced in the TID books but definitely to read that in TID Downworlders were suddenly defined as any beings that are part supernatural.And as for magic... don't even get me started there or otherwise all the idiocy of the last bane chronicles book will resurface in my mind. I need some time away from it to rewrite my review. That people actually think the Magnus in there is wise and tries to do the right thing is only conceivable if you fall for the books obvious "better in comparison tactic". Which is pathetic since neither Clare nor Johnson actually seem to know anything about believable characterization. Anyone with half a brain would notice all the flaws in that book. Not to mention that she glosses over the events of Black Thursday and Tuesday and her version of the Prohibition seems to be based rather on a Simpsons episode than the actual events.
I'm finding it really hard to get a hold of Clockwork Prince, and I don't have anyone I can borrow it from, so I'll just talk about her magic system because I feel like it.I've stated repeatedly that her magic system is never clearly defined. It has the feel of, "Oh, I've written myself into a corner. What can I do to get out of it? I know, I'll make something up!"
That said, I would think that being descended from people who are half angel would give Shadow-hunters enhanced swiftness, strength, and quicker reflexes without the need for runes. I'm sorry, "Marks."
That said, she never clarifies when the ones the SHs have burned into their skin go away or are deactivated. Clare always mentions them redrawing certain ones, but are their permanent ones? Clare never clarifies. I would think your speed, strength, and agility Marks you would want to be permanent. If they aren't, then what is the number of limited uses? If I needed a burst of speed to get out of the way of a lunging werewolf, would I activate it and then get my set duration of speed until it burned away? And if that is the case, then wouldn't I want multiples? Are their Marks for increased toughness so I could take a hit from a vampire? How about poison resistance or short term regeneration? Invisibility or cloaking would make sense if I'm a hunter of nasty things.
There are all sorts of things a whole book of "Marks" could be useful for, but Clare only specifies the one for open and maybe a couple others. And I know she's said there are pages and pages of these things. What, no Single Use Sunburst etched into someone's palm? That would be awesome. Just throw out your palm in a "talk to the hand" gesture and watch a demon's face burn away. Or a fireball. Lightening would be cool. Night vision, infrared, and tracking. The list could go on and on. And making them single use with a set duration would force the characters to plan ahead and add some distinguishing features between SHs because people would prefer different combinations. And are there ones that are only to be inscribed into inanimate objects like weapons or buildings? She says they're all over the place, but why? Why?
Okay, I have to stop now before I write a short story involving Laser-pointer Chasers as they hunt down the evil Daddy V with magical symbols inscribed onto their skin in liquid latex.
Oh, I told my husband about Clare's description of the SHs "shiny black stuff" "called gear." And he said it sounded like it should be used for fetish play. I will never think of the enchanted leather armor they wear the same again. (The first quote is said repeatedly in TMI. The second one is from CA. And why can't Clare just call it armor?)
There are some permanent runes but the only ones I can remember right now are the paratabai rune and it seems some of the runes the Silent Brothers use, another element that was never properly explained by Clare.But most runes are temporary and only the healing rune has been desribed to fade when it's doing it's job, something never stated for the other runes.
I also never understood why Clary's binding rune and the mark of Cain would work on Downworlders and not even what they do. After all, a Downworlder that actually has fighting experience would not really gain much from it, being able to carry runes would have been better.
Sadly her warlock magic is of the same type. It is a convenient tool to be used or discarded whenever you feel like it. And even then not done a good way that makes sense.
I didn't like this book, so if you did I'm sorry but this is why I didn't like it. First It reminded me of star wars. I understand that many themes and ideas are reused to make other great pieces of literature, but in my opinion it was too similar. Have=ing them turn out to be brother and sister isn't just gross but then when you add a secret evil dad that just tops it off. Also the fact that Valentine was paranoid that his friend, Luke, was manipulating his wife, Clary's mom, to conspire against Valentine, that just reminded me of what Anakin thought of Obi-Wan and Padme. I understand if people can look past that but I just can't. I had some other small things I didn't like, but that was mainly it. I'm not saying you can't like this book, I'm just saying I didn't so please don't take offence by this, it's just my opinion.
I agree with the original poster, I don't know about the other works she talked about that had similarities with MI because I never read them, but I did read HP and without reading anything about it on the internet I spotted the parallels to. To name a few:- The love triagle between Clary/Jace/Simon vs Lily/James/Snape.
- The poison dumbledore drank in book 6 vs Lake lyn
- The mark of cain on simon's forehead!!!! vs Harry's scar (this one is just plain painfull as it easily could have been avoided)
- Luke vs Lupin
I am always hesitant when calling plagiarism because as many stated before; if you write in the same genre you will have similarities BUT in this case im pretty confident this didn't happen by accident, let's not forget that this story is derived from her fanfiction about HP.
the last thing i'm going to say about this: I understand that you like this story and that you want to defend it but don't get blinded by your admiration.
ps: I'm Dutch, so im sorry if my English wasn't always great.
Tessa wrote: "the last thing i'm going to say about this: I understand that you like this story and that you want to defend it but don't get blinded by your admiration."Bravo, you had said it all.
Tessa wrote: "I agree with the original poster, I don't know about the other works she talked about that had similarities with MI because I never read them, but I did read HP and without reading anything about i..."Yeah, you said it pretty well. The only thing I would add is that Clare obviously does not know what to do with the stuff she is given/has taken. I am currently reading Clockwork Angel and how am I supposed to feel suspense when these clockwork creatures are so incompetent that they cannot even catch up to Jem and Tessa despite the fact ... I better stop.
SPOILERS AHEAD!So lets break it down
A young protégé grows up with great expectation within an order that have supernatural powers.
After the death of a parent his mind sours and he starts slipping toward the morally evil side of the spectrum.
Due to fear the wife and friends of the former hero now decide that his children are no longer safe. The children get separated without the knowledge of each other.
Time passes and through chance they reconnect, and feel a strong bond. But for the sake of suspense a third party enters the scene creating a love triangle.
In plot twist reveal we find out first that the young protagonist is the child of the antagonist and secondly that the strange connection previously mentioned are that of lost siblings. The love triangle miraculously disappear and things turn out for the best...
If I asked you separately whether this is a summary of "City of bones" or the "Star Wars" series I think the answer would yes in both cases.
It's a bit too close for comfort...
And that is the main problem. TMI has too many elements that are similar to other titles and the fact that the author cannot even use them right and contradicts herself over and over makes it all even more suspicious.
When I read these books I didn't find any similarities to any other series around, I just happily went along with my business and enjoyed it. Okay, if you analyse it and proper look into it and pick out bits and whatever you'll find similarities to everything. OH LOOK A VAMPIRE - TWILIGHT
OH LOOK A GIRL - EVERY BOOK EVER.
OH LOOK A ROMANCE - AGAIN EVERY BOOK EVER
OH LOOK AN ANGEL - God can't Cassandra Clare be more creative?
Like just shut up- things are always going to overlap, there are only so many ideas that can come about. Ofc if an author sees this type of book has been popular, they will try to write one that has a similar world/storyline/whatever to get the interest in their books too.
Why over-think everything? If you read the book and liked it, congrats. If you read the book and didn't like it, again congrats. Now move along with your life and read another book.
That's the way the world works.
Nope. Not going to shut up. I work my butt off NOT to copy other people's stuff... She should not be allowed to get away with being so MUNDANE.
Annie wrote: "When I read these books I didn't find any similarities to any other series around, I just happily went along with my business and enjoyed it. Okay, if you analyse it and proper look into it and pic..."No, that is the way lazy writers work. And apologist fans. The "examples" you just had are pretty badly chosen and don't reveal a willingness to actually analyze anything. The fact that you go from vampire immediately to Twilight is also not speaking for you. The similarities to Twilight are:
1. The transformation into a vampire makes you attractive
2. Jace watches Clary sleep and she doesn't object to this
3. Jace has golden eyes, speaks several languages is educated, physically perfect and every girl wants him. Also he plays piano. And that is similar to Edward.
But these things are only a really tiny fraction, there are much more glaring similarities to Harry Potter.
Where is your argument? Cassandra Clare is SO successful. You think she doesn't work equally as hard? I don't even like Clare's writing that much but you can't go hating on an incredibly popular and successful series for petty reasons.
Like i said before Annie; if you write in the same genre you will have similarities but it's not normal how many similarities there are in MI. + no one ever said those parallels were vampires, romance or whatever you stated.So the ones I wrote down are not true?
Andre wrote: "Annie wrote: "When I read these books I didn't find any similarities to any other series around, I just happily went along with my business and enjoyed it. Okay, if you analyse it and proper look i..."No offence but I don't really care for analysing a book to that much extent. I don't look into YA books into that much detail because it's hopeless.
This series is successful and it's obviously successful for a reason. That's the end of that.
If you don't like it, fine- move on. Everyone's different- maybe you're not even the target market of this book, how are we to know?
And what is keeping you from "moving on?" The way you write sounds as though all you want is to shut critics up. But criticism is important because it shows what can be improved and Cassandra Clare's books need alot of improvement.Personally I think her books are not successfull due to her skills but rather due to five simple points:
1. The books allegedly deal with heavy topics but in truth its only lip-service, thereby they stay save by not going anywhere near difficult topics.
2. They are extremely shallow and simple, thereby there is no danger of frightening people who just want to be showered by stuff without doing anything for it.
3. The book claims to be about teenagers/Young adults but deals with nothing such people normally go through (this is often combined with point 1)
4. The writing is so convoluted and contradictory that readers can just make up the characters in their head instead of actually seeing the ones presented in the books. Thereby they get the version they like and can always paint the characters in the best light possible.
5. The book deals heavily into the "right girl saves the troubled bad boy" trope, thereby providing an escape from such people in real life.
Also, I did not analyze it. What I stated where simply similarities that were to glaring to ignore.
Petty reasons? The woman doesn't have a single original idea.It rankles. If I must be successful, I want to at least not use the same boring tropes all the time and copy popular things.
Hence why writing this poxy book is so difficult.
There's just certain tropes less people should use because the are so irritating.
Kaari wrote: "Are you aware that there is no originality in the world. Yeah it suck IF the series really copied off some scenes but honestly there are millions of people writing books with mostly 26 letters. COME ON. Go watch Charlies video and you'll find out that almost every thought you've had or every book that someones written has already been someone else's dream or their story. I advise you to be a lot more open minded and read the whole series just because you saw a couple of similarities. Then you might have the right to say something bad. AND IT's good that you have your own opinion but don't form it on predjudices"
Well I read the whole series and can happily say:
It is bad!!!
Very bad. The author constantly contradicts herself, her writing stile is clumsy, at best, the characerization all over the place and she copies from so many other sources without even knowing how to handle this stuff that her stories are nothing short of a giant mess.
I am a huge supernatural (the tv series) fan, so reading this book was somewhat painful for me due to all the, if i may say, terrible rip offs.Jace's personality seems to fit Dean quite well, its kind of ridiculous. The "I'm so in love with myself, nothing can hurt me, but truly I'm in agonizing pain" personality has been done many times over, and so while accusing Ms. Clare of copying is not fair, the similarities are still appalling.
Jace's opinion of angel's existence is ripped straight from supernatural, anyone who has seen it will know what I mean. Then the whole concept of shadow hunters and demon killers...its just too much a coincidence for me to believe that there isn't some "artistic influence" going around.
As for Harry Potter, Valentine=harry's dad in the romantic sense, where Jocelyn=Harry's mother because of their courtship (Jocelyn staying abit apart from valentine and resenting him...blah blah blah). Clearly Luke=snape, that's hardly a mystery. Not to mention before having her own "inspirations" Ms.Clare was an avid fanfic writer of the Harry Potter fandom.
Of course, Harry Potter took its fair share of "inspirations" from other children's novel, the train station for one. But JK Rowling produced a fabulous piece of literary art, her work is great not only because she created most of her stories but also because she is a great writer.
I heavily enjoy Ms.Clare's sarcastic writing and snippy comments, I find them quite hilarious! However, to genuinely call this book original seems to be too far of a stretch, and to say that her writing is of any literary brilliance is also quite embarrassing, I would imagine, for whoever believes it.
Lin wrote: "I am a huge supernatural (the tv series) fan, so reading this book was somewhat painful for me due to all the, if i may say, terrible rip offs.Jace's personality seems to fit Dean quite well, its ..."
Many fans seem to use the fact that other works of fiction have similarities and of course some bad decisions by the authors to justify what Clare did. It's all "there is no originality" what they say. However there is a difference between using the same archetypes or formulas and just plain ripping off. I didn't notice similarities between Jace and Dean, but I was constantly reminded of pretty much every popular series (books and films) of the last 20-30 years (Anne Rice, Twilight, Harry Potter, Buffy, Underworld, Star Wars, etc.) and I cannot believe that this is a coincidence, especially since Clare doesn't seem to be able to use what she put in her books. Her use of the supernatural and logic, the little that there is, is so inconsistent that it makes her characters look like giant assholes and/or idiots. Not to mention that she seems to forget not only elements she introduced but even plotpoints; and she has this habit of telling us "important" things later on when we should have known that from the start (seriously, in TMI it was never mentioned that vampires are highly inflammable and in a city like New York that should be known since Simon is a vampire; and don't get me started on the Bane Chronicles).
Racheal wrote: "Themes, plots, and ideas will always circulate and be rewritten. It's the way the world works. There is no such thing as an original idea anymore. You can only try to make yours better, or more int..."I want a 'like' button for your post
I hated this book. I didn't like the writing, I hated the instanta-love between Jace and Clary and the fact that even though they thought they were brother and freaking sister they continued their love affair. Gross.
I hated her limp wristed main character. Clary is one of the worst written female leads right behind Bella Swan.
Her writing style was clumsy as hell and I just can't support someone who takes their fanfiction, renames her characters and then sells the book. I call BS on that.
And frankly as a consumer and avid reader I have the right to like, dislike and discuss any book I see fit.
Since when have we turned into a mob? Where individual thoughts are shot down because it goes against the group? Are we living in China now? Will I be dragged off and thrown in prison because I hated this book?
Rosie wrote: "I want a 'like' button for your post"And I want a dislike button. Since that "defense" against Clare's rip-offs has a beard til the moon already and is just a weak excuse. Using a similar formular is one thing, obviously ripping off to the point that its obvious that the author has no idea what to do with what she ripped off is another thing entirely.
Letitia wrote: "Since when have we turned into a mob? Where individual thoughts are shot down because it goes against the group? Are we living in China now? Will I be dragged off and thrown in prison because I hated this book? "
Now, but there is a good chance you will be attacked by some Clare fan, that your opinion will be ridiculed and you will be called the stupid and ignorant one. Trust me, alot of the people who criticized her books know that experience all too well.
This whole series is AMAZING it is so not a rip off of any other book the only time it's even close to another book is when Simon tells izzy the whole plot of Star Wars so she will fall asleep. If I was the person that wrote Star Wars I would be honored to have my book even mentioned in south a great series
Such a great series
Josie wrote: "This whole series is AMAZING it is so not a rip off of any other book the only time it's even close to another book is when Simon tells izzy the whole plot of Star Wars so she will fall asleep. If ..."Proof it!
Personally I only see star wars. The whole dad thing and Simon and Clary both mention eg (I wanted to say that I love you and you reply "I know" like Han solo and Leia.But also when I started to feel this way I found it funny that there is a character called luke.
Gemma wrote: "But also when I started to feel this way I found it funny that there is a character called luke. "I considered him more an HP and Underworld ripoff since he is called Lucien Greymark and is a werewolf who is a leader of werewolves (aka like Lucian in Underworld and Fenrier Greyback in HP).
I do agree now that i think about it but when I was reading I just kept on thinking skywalker. :)
Gemma wrote: "I do agree now that i think about it but when I was reading I just kept on thinking skywalker. :)"That is understandable. When I read it I was reminded of so many other books and films it was difficult to keep track. :D
Not a good read for sure ! I'd rather read Bleach (manga) than this... although I checked the movie and the TV series. Just please, please if you like city of ... series of books don't consider this literature. "The hobbit" is better written and it was meant to be a tale for children. Total bleach rip-off for me: Cassandra Clare changed the sex of the main characters (not much the personality though) and simplified a lot the story-line. You add a pinch of the western culture and you have a good rip-off. You can blab about the fact that this or this is different however when similarities are greater than differences it can hardly be considered a brilliant original work of fiction.
This book series is awesome. Yes, it may have some plot points from Star Wars and Harry Potter but, those two weren't exactly original either. The characters are unique and the storyline is incredible. Those who don't like it, don't comment.
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
Homeland (other topics)
Emperor of Thorns (other topics)
Prince of Thorns (other topics)
King of Thorns (other topics)
More...
Kevin Hearne (other topics)
Lauren Beukes (other topics)
Christopher Moore (other topics)
Ursula K. Le Guin (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
Geekomancy (other topics)Homeland (other topics)
Emperor of Thorns (other topics)
Prince of Thorns (other topics)
King of Thorns (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Chuck Wendig (other topics)Kevin Hearne (other topics)
Lauren Beukes (other topics)
Christopher Moore (other topics)
Ursula K. Le Guin (other topics)
More...
Yep... Old brain, think slower here... hahahaha
Mizuki wrote: "looks like she has never woman-up to face the circumstances of her own making. And those fans are too eager to protect her. That makes me sad too. "
I know some fans are not like that. Like me, they also love TMI but were obviously disappointed in Clockwork Princess.
For me, it is fine to like a series considered bad enough by others. I like what I enjoy reading, not what others enjoy reading. Even with inconsistencies, I still read the series. But Ms Clare went too far by writing something in order to keep her fans happy.
As bad as a book can be, we are to understand the story from what we get from the book and CP2 totally contradicted the previous books. The worse about it was that Ms Clare answered our dissatisfaction with totally different answers on her page. Seriously??