City of Copying Other Great Works (Mortal Instruments #Too Many)

[[deleted user]]

Well they did say she backed out saying she didn't have enough control over making it. She's so... fickle.

[kirstin ✿]

I added the last paragraph of the critic's review. He's right: It's not the film's fault that it sucked; it's the book's. After all it was where it was based on.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure CC's just gonna cyberbully those people who even consider listing her as a badly behaving author, just like what she did before.

[Reader-ramble]

I knew there was a reason why I loved FilmSchoolRejects.com. This article. Click on it just to read the title. And their review.

[Spider the Doof Warrior]

That dude is supposed to be Jace? He looks GAUNT! And again, ridiculous how those ruins look. I thought they looked like badass scars.

[Mizuki]

◄KɪʀsᴛɪN► wrote: "I added the last paragraph of the critic's review. He's right: It's not the film's fault that it sucked; it's the book's. After all it was where it was based on."

Just how, could it be the director or the film's fault that the story itself sucks?

[Andre]

Trust me some would claim it's the director's fault. I think some people did that with Twilight - Eclipse although the problem was that even the best directors could not do more with that material unless they make a film that has not much to do with the source anymore.

Crimson wrote: "Well they did say she backed out saying she didn't have enough control over making it. She's so... fickle."
I thought she could make it so that they would cast a Half-Asian or Asian actor and how the film looked. How much influence did she have?

Mizuki wrote: "Andre: here's the City of Bones review I had mentioned.
I included the White House Down review as well because even WHD has received higher rate than CoB.

"

Thanks. I must say I am not surprised over both reviews. Emmerich's films were never good on the plot level and welll the other one is City of Bones.

[Mizuki]

LeeAnna wrote: "I knew there was a reason why I loved FilmSchoolRejects.com. This article. Click on it just to read the title. And their review."

One of the reviews actually said Beautiful Creatures movie has more depth when it comes to characters. Good, will check this out.

[Mizuki]

Andre wrote: "Emmerich's films were never good on the plot level and welll the other one is City of Bones. "
From the other White House Down reviews, I got an impression that no one really expected the film doing good when it comes to plot and storytelling. But even WHD got higher rate than CoB, ha.

[kirstin ✿]

Okay, sorry to butt; I just saw talk of White House Down. So, for those who have seen it, did you like it? Because I personally didn't. I love Channing Tatum, but the film just didn't work for me. And Jamie Foxx for a President? Let's just say he's a little too... informal to be one.

[Andre]

Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "Emmerich's films were never good on the plot level and welll the other one is City of Bones. "
From the other White House Down reviews, I got an impression that no one really expected..."

Ok, that is a bit surprising. But then again they said the same about Independence Day and that one was full of cliches.

And now that I think about it:
Magnus is golden-skinned in City of Bones, tall, skinny and colorful, and of course into fashion. Wouldn't that make him a guy out of a manga/animee?

[Reader-ramble]

Andre said: "Wouldn't that make him a guy out of a manga/animee?"

You would think so. Doesn't he also have blue liberty spikes?

I have to admit, I loved the anime aspect because it gave me something I could harp on using a very colorful, popular, YA manga/anime with it's own pacing issues. And power gaps. And lots of deus ex machina. I really shouldn't have been reading DBZ at that time. It just made poking at Clare's anime references too easy. (The manga's pacing is actually quite good.)

Fan Girl confession. I was actually horrified when she mentioned Trigun. How dare she sully one of my favorite animes ever by wedging it into her work. I honestly felt my heart drop when I saw it.

[[deleted user]]

Andre wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Andre wrote: "Emmerich's films were never good on the plot level and welll the other one is City of Bones. "
From the other White House Down reviews, I got an impression that no one ..."

It wouldn't hurt to say she watches anime or read manga. I absolutely hate it when this "supposed" writers think just by taking some one else's work that is fashioned in a different medium that all readers won't notice and use it.

[[deleted user]]

LeeAnna wrote: "Andre said: "Wouldn't that make him a guy out of a manga/animee?"

You would think so. Doesn't he also have blue liberty spikes?

I have to admit, I loved the anime aspect because it gave me someth..."

She what!? No, aw hell no! Vash should not be mentioned with such horrible characters.

[Reader-ramble]

Crimson wrote: "It wouldn't hurt to say she watches anime or read manga. I absolutely hate it when this "supposed" writers think just by taking some one else's work that is fashioned in a different medium that all readers won't notice and use it."

What I don't like is that she makes Clary to be some massive otaku, but then doesn't use that enough for characterization. People relate things in certain frame of reference. For instance, I was raised on Star Trek. So when my husband got me back into all of the Dragon Ball universe, my brain processed saiyans as Klingon lycanthropes with tails. That's just how things work. (For a fun side note, my husband ruined me. Any animes with glowing yellow auras made after the 90s makes me instantly think DBZ.)

So, if Clary was an otaku, she would try to look at this weird, freaky new situation she was thrown into through what she knew. But the writer doesn't do that. She just name drops like she does everything else. She tries to do this more with Tessa and books in TID, but doesn't pull it off. I actually make fun of this in my CoG review when I talk about the resurrection scene and she only saves Jace.

"She what!? No, aw hell no! Vash should not be mentioned with such horrible characters."

I know. I'm going to cry in the corner now as clutch my box set.

[Andre]

I haven't read Clockwork Angel yet but I am currently reading the latest Bane Chronicle titled "The Rise of the Hotel Dumort" (which I think she spelled Dumont in CoFA when it first appears, not surprising considered that she didn't even get Jordan's hair color right [that is Maia's ex boyfriend]) and there Magnus claims that his disguised barguests read Jude the Obscure, which was suppossedly very progressive and feminist for its time. Not that Magnus is anything like that.

[Reader-ramble]

Andre wrote: "I haven't read Clockwork Angel yet but I am currently reading the latest Bane Chronicle titled "The Rise of the Hotel Dumort" (which I think she spelled Dumont in CoFA when it first appears, not su..."

Clare just has Tessa quoting from a bunch of books and comparing her relationship with Will to Jane Austen characters. It felt like she was trying to show off. For proper geeky frame of reference, read Geekomancy. It's so geeky, you have to pretty much be one to get even half the references. If you get all of them, you are a geek priest of the highest order. It also has a proper magic steam-tech character. I love Drake. I ship him and the MC so hard. They need to be together.

... I really did just say that. Don't look at me. My fan girl is starting to emerge. (Clutches kindle and Trigun t-shirt to chest. Becomes embarrassed. Hides in closet.)

[Andre]

Why do you feel embaressed? It is not you who reads books that are not even written correctly. The current Bane Chronicles at least doesn't have the horrible similes and crazy lines but it still could have been written better and what they imrpoved in writing they decreased in characterization and consistency.

[Reader-ramble]

Andre wrote: "Why do you feel embaressed? It is not you who reads books that are not even written correctly. The current Bane Chronicles at least doesn't have the horrible similes and crazy lines but it still co..."

It was a poorly done joke. I'm so not fan girly at all, and so when I demonstrate the "symptoms" I actually do get a bit embarrassed. I'm comfortable with my geekdom, but I don't hang onto things too tightly because I understand that most of the creators usually move on. I try to be fans of the creators and understand their intents, even if a particular work they release isn't up to a standard I'm used to. It's why I feel for the CC fans that the writer has kicked at when they said they didn't like CP2. It must have cut them deeply after they supported her for so long.

And besides, if I'm hopelessly devoted to 2 or 3 works or worlds, how would I have time to explore the new ones coming out? I love so many things, I can't pick one.

That said, if you really want to watch me chatter on like an obsessed fan, here are the topics you can bring up:

Books by Chuck Wendig, Kevin Hearne, Lauren Beukes, Christopher Moore, and Mark Lawrence of the Broken Empire books.

Mention Ursula K. Le Guin and I will stand in silence with a glassy look in my eyes as my brain takes a vacation to hopelessly-in-awe land.

Skyrim, Borderlands 2, the main 3 Fable games, and Guild Wars 2.

Books in general. If I have money and I'm standing in a book store, I'm screwed. I would be happy spending an afternoon hugging bookshelves. If that's weird, I don't care.

Typewriters

Paper

Anything involving ink really.

And these guys.

Oh, and writing. I love talking about writing, which should be obvious by now.

After speaking about myself, sucks to hear that the technical aspects have improved, but not the developmental. I really doubt The Writers keep notes. I have a spreadsheet to keep track of my plot alone.

[Andre]

No hint that the writers take any actual notes or even think about what they write there. The authors might write this and that to make Magnus… sympathetic I guess, or maybe moderate and smart, I guess. But actually it makes him and those around him look like idiots most of the time.
Well you will see it in my review but I am also trying to catch up with this book: Surviving the City: The Chinese Immigrant Experience in New York City, 1890-1970. Originally I sought it ought as part of my preparation for Clockwork Angel but apparently it might also be useful for the current Bane Chronicles. Especially since Clare claimed once that newcomer Godfrey Gao -- playing Brooklyn's High Warlock Magnus Bane -- most closely resembles her own mental picture of the character.

[Reader-ramble]

(Rages for a minute. Sits down.)

Sorry. Mizuki and I discussed earlier on this page that Magnus would not look like he was of Eastern Asian ancestry. Every time that Clare wanted an asian actor comes up, the vein my temple throbs. I'm such a research stickler, I look things up to write my reviews.

I think it's so cool that you're doing research before you read CA. I hope you write a review about it when you're done.

[Zero vi Britannia]

LeeAnna wrote: "(Rages for a minute. Sits down.)

Sorry. Mizuki and I discussed earlier on this page that Magnus would not look like he was of Eastern Asian ancestry. Every time that Clare wanted an asian actor co..."

If Magnus is 800 years old (i think he says so) how can he be from the Dutch East Indies?

[Andre]

Clare has stated several ages for him in her first three books. At first letting him state in CoA that when he was young the death sea was only a small lake doing poorly (which is BS since often it was bigger in the past than today, it fluctuated of course) and in the same book by Alec that he was about 300 years old. In City of Glass Magnus stated at first that he was about 700 years old and quickly after that he was 800 years. In City of Lost Souls Camille stated him to be from Batavia and that his mother was a "native". In the short snippet Magnus's Vow his mother was stated to be the daughter of a dutch official and an Indonesian. Which would mean that he could not have been born earlier than the earily 17th century since even while women were married off at teenage years back then there is no way his mother would have become "reproductive" before she was 12 years old, and considered the conditions back then, I would say its safer to say that she could not have had a full-term pregnancy until she was at least 16.

By the way in "What really happened in Peru" they "resolved" the different ages by stating that he lies about it out of habit, even to his friends. Which is made out to be not bad since "they know it." Which of course makes it no less a lie. And I guess you know what that means about his relationship with Alec.

[Andre]

LeeAnna wrote: (Rages for a minute. Sits down.)

Sorry. Mizuki and I discussed earlier on this page that Magnus would not look like he was of Eastern Asian ancestry. Every time that Clare wanted an asian actor comes up, the vein my temple throbs. I'm such a research stickler, I look things up to write my reviews.

I think it's so cool that you're doing research before you read CA. I hope you write a review about it when you're done. "

No reason to feel sorry. And yeah I do a bit preparing before I start CA. I also plan to read the following books:
The Scramble for China: Foreign Devils in the Qing Empire, 1832-1914
Wives, Slaves, and Concubines: A History of the Female Underclass in Dutch Asia
London Clubland: A Cultural History of Gender and Class in late-Victorian Britain
Public Lives: Women, Family, and Society in Victorian Britain
Sexuality in World History
In Search of Equality: The Chinese Struggle against Discrimination in Nineteenth-Century America
Citizens of a Christian Nation - Evangelical Missions and the Problem of Race in the Nineteenth Century
It is not much, but it is something to use and state as a reference source.

[Nurlely]

Zero vi Britannia wrote: "If Magnus is 800 years old (i think he says so) how can he be from the Dutch East Indies? "

Because Ms Clare didn't bother to check out Indonesian history at all before making Magnus ours... LOL

Are you Indonesian? I haven't read any comments stating that anyone knows how long ago was the Dutch ruled Indonesia (or maybe I missed that one). It was about 400 years ago. Magnus and his Dutch-Batavian story is indeed a total joke.

[Andre]

I read the book The Social World of Batavia: Europeans and Eurasians in Colonial Indonesia .

Which finally convinced me that Clare probably didn't even bother to go to wikipedia for that and probably did not come with his background right away. So far the only thing realistic is that his mother would have a dutch father since there were only very few dutch women in Batavia at the time. But to be honest what we know about Magnus's past is so vague and sparse that we don't really get to know anything.

[Nurlely]

Andre wrote: "But to be honest what we know about Magnus's past is so vague and sparse that we don't really get to know anything. "

Maybe that was intentionally written ? If something is wrong, then Cassie can come up with vague answer too, or as she has been doing so far, give away totally different answers... ;)
Has anyone asked Cassie about this on her tumblr?

[Olivia]

I really enjoyed these books from the perspctive that Clare has drawn on so many existing ideas and themes from through out history and a number of areas but has managed to refresh them. I say good luck to anyone in this day and age of media and technoligical saturation to come up with a truly unique idea. And that goes even without referring to the natural inclinations of humans who often have similar aspirations and feelings.

I do agree however that the weakness of Clary is rather frustrating at times especially when the author is a woman. Clare makes Isabelle strong and powerful but then that is tempered with her promiscuity which, although shouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, is usually considered as such by society.

However, on the whole, as I say above, I like this series.

[Andre]

I am not gonna comment on why I think that Clare did nothig refreshing about all the topics in CoB, I did that plenty of times on this thread already.
And would Clare really be such a master at what you claim, neither me nor any of the other critics and movie reviewers would state about her what we did. Quite the contrary, we would applaud her. But what she did was just copying and borrowing from other sources and doing it worse than they were done originally.

Nurlely wrote: "Maybe that was intentionally written ? If something is wrong, then Cassie can come up with vague answer too, or as she has been doing so far, give away totally different answers... ;)
Has anyone asked Cassie about this on her tumblr? "

I don't know if anyone asked her on thumblr, but on some signing or so someone must have asked her about when was Magnus born and allegedly she claimed 1640.

It is of course entirely possible that Clare gave these vague answers and scarcity of information on purpose so no one can call her out and she can one day say: now I give you all just like you wanted. I guess for many that will work. Gladly not for me, because for me that is not telling the backstory of an alleged main character but rather clean-up so people don't call you out on how much you messed up. Since the current Bane Chronicles book is the 13th book he is in and the 5th where he is the protagonist, she had plenty of time and chance to give us a detailed background of Magnus. If she will start filling the gaps now, in my eyes it will be too late.

[Nurlely]

1640? Less than 400 years? I think I ever read about Magnus being much much much older than that.

[Nurlely]

Quoted from City of Glass:

Alec stared at him. “You’re seven hundred years old?”
“Well,” Magnus amended, “eight hundred. But I don’t look it.

1640????

[Andre]

Yeah she later gave several different versions.
City of Lost Souls:
Camille laughed. “You don’t even know that? My goodness. Batavia, if you must know.” She snorted at his look of incomprehension. “Indonesia. Of course, it was the Dutch East Indies then. His mother was a native, I believe; his father was some dull colonial. Well, not his real father.” Her lips curved into a smile.

Magnus's Vow:
thought of his mother, herself the daughter of a Dutch father and an Indonesian woman who had died in childbirth and whose name Magnus had never known.

And there was What Really Happened in Peru:

Magnus talked a little with Imasu about that, about the
Dutch and Batavian blood in his own veins.
...
“I knew the oracle who lived here seven hundred years ago,” Magnus announced grandly. Nayaraq looked impressed.
Catarina, who knew Magnus’s actual age perfectly well, did not.
…
You could not tell a potential customer, expecting a learned and ancient magician, that you were not even fully grown. Magnus had started lying about his age young, and had never dropped the habit.
It did get a little embarrassing sometimes when he forgot what lie he’d told to whom. Someone had once asked him what Julius Caesar was like, and Magnus had stared at him for much too long and said, “Not tall?”
…
“I am almost six hundred years old,” Magnus claimed, and Ragnor snorted, since Magnus changed his age to suit himself every few weeks.
…
“I’m only two hundred years old,” said Magnus, ignoring his friends’ mutual snort at the lie.

[Nurlely]

How did a writer, with ideas of her own, get confused with the details? It feels like they are other people ideas adapted by her.
Or maybe amnesia.... ;)

[Andre]

That is mostly what critics of book and movie said about the book/movie. That the ideas are those of others and she just copied and that they now no longer work right.
It could be possible that she had let Magnus always lie about his age but considered that she e.g. seems to have forgotten about his missing navel in the Bane Chronicles, never mentioned after CoB that vampires can transform into bats, rats and dust, at least so far I found no mentioning of it, that the accounts of the night Maia was attacked by Jordan differ significantly and Maia seems to have no problem with Jordan's version, that in CoFA Jordan's/Kyle's hair was at first described as brown and a few pages later as black, that Magnus is darker in Victorian London then in modern day New York, that in CoA she suddenly talks about Shadowhunter muscles and states that Magnus looks 19 although in CoB Clary referred to him as a man, and no modrn day 15 year old would state an obvious 19 year old looking as a man, etc. I would say there is a good possibility that she messed the details about his age up and what you see in the Bane Chronicles is basically a clean-up attempt, especially that since after that book it was never mentioned again as it seems. Currently I can't even remember that a specific age was stated in the later Chronicles books.

[Nurlely]

Her clean-up attempt was pretty messed up. The Bane Chronicles is her worst work. Sadly, some fans blame her co-writers for that.

[Mizuki]

Nurlely wrote: "Her clean-up attempt was pretty messed up. The Bane Chronicles is her worst work. Sadly, some fans blame her co-writers for that."

Hey, this is ridiculous. Clare always finds excuses for herself, I can't believe some of her fans are the same.

[Nurlely]

Mizuki wrote: "Hey, this is ridiculous. Clare always finds excuses for herself, I can't believe some of her fans are the same. "

Not ridiculous. Some fans thought TMI and TID as perfect books. They didn't believe the series are with flaws. I love Jace, but I knew right from the beginning that the series contains many inconsistencies. I just decided to enjoy reading about Jace and ignored those flaws.

[Andre]

It truly is ridiculous. The co-writer has changed now and the only difference so far is that there aren't these main weird and totally senseless similes and sentences. There is no contradiction in case of facts currently, then again there is so far nothing of the other books mentioned, but what Magnus does and says still lets him come along as a hypocritical idiot.

[Andre]

The "best" example so far is that he creates elaborate glamours when the police come into his speakeasy instead of creating a glamour that would keep them out in the first place. We saw him do specific glamours in Runaway Queen so he should be able to do them here as well.

[Mizuki]

@Nurlely:
You are one of the very few fans of the series who actually admits the series is inconsistencies and ripped off a lot of materials from other authors.^_^

[Nurlely]

I missed at where that ridiculous was for... LOL.
I thought it was for my comment. Do excuse my poor English... ;)
Yep it is ridiculous. But some fans did that. I read their comments and felt sad to ever call myself a fans.

Ms Clare is shielding herself with her vague answers, her not-answering the actual questions, and mostly her fans.

[Andre]

Trust me I am just waiting for Jem or Magnus to state that they would have supported the boxer rebellion and would have fought with the boxers. That is how ridiculous it comes along to me what she writes.

[Mizuki]

Nurlely wrote: "I missed at where that ridiculous was for... LOL.
I didn't mean you're ridiculous, I mean those fans.^^;

Ms Clare is shielding herself with her vague answers, her not-answering the actual questions, and mostly her fans.
looks like she has never woman-up to face the circumstances of her own making. And those fans are too eager to protect her. That makes me sad too.

[Andre]

I find it rather frustrating.

[Reader-ramble]

Well, from a technical standpoint, Clare really needs a developmental editor to go through her work. It's their job to find inconsistencies in plot, setting, characterization, etc. Most writers don't actually think there is an editor for that. There is.

If she knew how to do proper characterization, then Magnus would have been born in the late 1600s/1700s. This information can be given to the audience through flashback or remembrance. This is easy when done from a character's point of view. Then have him lie in his dialogue. If she got her ethnicities right (she didn't, but for the purpose of this exorcise, just go with it) she could have also had him lie about his background to go with his "true" age. For the purpose of the story I would have had his caucasian genes more dominant, but he would still have an identity dissonance. That would account for all the lying. It would be all the worse since he's homosexual. Even in the more "progressive" times in TMI, these past issues would still plague him, maybe not as intensely, but it is something that shaped his personality.

Unfortunately for the reader, this isn't what happened.

[Helen]

Can't see if anyone's already said this but this book was originally written as a Harry Potter fanfic...anf just like EL Jasmes did with her twilight fanfic, cassie changed the characters and a lot of other fundamental things about the plot and got published. So any similarities to harry Potter are NOT coincidental (although any to the final book are as this was published first) - However, similarities don't = plagurism, direct copying/paraphrasing = plagurism, and this was something Cassie was accused of and had to deal with in her original story. She removed all plagurised sections and lines for the published version.

Every story could be accused of copying something - with so few basic stories and so many millions of books, how could they not?!

[Andre]

How many times do we have to say this:
It is not the fact that she has similiraties per se that is the problem, it is the number of similiarities her book has with other titles. What you just said there is the same excuse others have used so far. They confuse using archetypes with copying.

PS. Since my scanning of CoFA is continuing I noticed that when Luke leaned against the books in the Institute the book only mentioned in the shapeshifter section werewolf, naga, kitsune, selkie. Yeah chosing them really speaks for a deep understanding and thorough research. Apparently she never heard about e.g. the Priccolitsch, the Aswang (all five versions, or even more), the tanuki, swan maidens etc. etc.

LeeAnna wrote: "Well, from a technical standpoint, Clare really needs a developmental editor to go through her work. It's their job to find inconsistencies in plot, setting, characterization, etc. Most writers don..."

But of course nothing like that happened so far in the books and even if it suddenly would it would just be a hasty clean-up job and nothing more. Fans will of course swallow it, but to be honest people that didn't already notice the obvious inconsistencies and bad writing in TMI would not be bothered by that in any way in my eyes.

[Reader-ramble]

I was saying that is how it should have been done from the beginning. There is no saving it now.

[Andre]

Truly not. Especially not after his actions when he saw the first effect of the Black Tuesday 1929. I have no idea, yet, whether what Clare wrote is credible, but either way, Magnus's decision to just go and get drunk is totally selfish and cowardly.

[Kirstyn]

Clare's novels have their inconsistencies and tropes. A bit unoriginal? Yes. Rip offs or plagiarism? I wouldn't say that. Didn't keep me from enjoying them as the escapist works they are. I look elsewhere if I want a well thought out masterpiece of a book.

[Kristin]

rayful wrote: "So I'll come right out and say that I hated this book. I didn't even bother with the others because, uhm, there's really no point. What I don't understand is how people can really enjoy this book..."

I wanted to make this nice, but I am not in the mood so here it goes: You are a moron.

I am not a big fan of this series, so don't take this as a fan-girl defending her book.

Huge rip-off of Harry Potter, huh? I am fully aware of the fan-fic beginnings, but come on. Have you ever heard of Lord of the Rings??? Potter is not immune to being a bit of a "rip-off". (For the record I love Harry Potter)

If you read enough YA, you will see that most of it flows along the same lines. Grow up.