Wings of the Dove, The: Week 2 - Book Third & Forth

[Bill]

Is this an in joke?

[Linda2]

Rosa Dartle or quitting to do a buddy read? Dartle is a character from David Copperfield, madly in love with Steerforth but verbally abusive of him at the same time.

[Laurel]

Rochelle wrote: "Laurele wrote: "I keep dozing off and thinking Rosa Dartle is speaking."

::Guffaw, guffaw, guffaw. ROTFL :: How about a buddy read for the rest of the WotD session?"

I've got Rosa, Steerforth, Lattimore, and company scheduled for this summer.

[Laurel]

Bill wrote: "Is this an in joke?"

Rosa would never come right out and say anything; she was always insinuating.

[Bill]

IF it were only insinuations. It's the a "high, dim, charming, ambiguous oddity, which was even better" than beauty.

It there a "there" there? :-)

And you there are paragraphs of absolute brilliance. There's much of interest. I also think I'll probably finish it sometime in October, but that's fine.

Again, I think one could argue that all books present challenges. The major works of major authors, I'm inclined to want to surmount them.

[Bill]

I thought it was interesting that first positive flaw James attributes to Kate was her dismissing of Susan Stringham. Kate has shown no lack of sympathy previously -- she was responsive to Merton -- and to her family.

[Lily]

I re-read the first part of Book 3 (Chapter 5) this morning. I am fascinated by Henry James's dance of words about how Susan Stringham reacts to Milly. Do I perceive the attraction Silver posited (kept rigidly under control) or am I overlaying a hypothesis that is really not there?

[Bill]

I don't know that you can say. It's a question of making a case from the language. My sense is that there's not enough hard evidence to say that's what the book suggests as opposed to that's what the book suggests to you.

I feel oddly that Stringham is a mouthpiece for James' feelings about his cousin because I continue to find the paean's to Milly over the top.

[MadgeUK]

Milly is generally reckoned to be modelled on his dead cousin, on whom he had a youthful crush.

[[deleted user]]

@66 Silver wrote: "Also I cannot recall, was it ever explained specifically why Milly wanted to keep her acquaintance with Densher from Kate? Was it because she was worried what Kate would think of her if she knew that Milly had acquaintance with Densher?



Maybe this has already been answered. Milly didn't tell Kate because Mrs Stringham told Milly that Mrs Lowder asked that Milly not say anything on that to Kate.

"'Well,' Mrs Stringham presently brought out, 'I tell you all when I tell you that Maud asks me to sugest to you that it may perhaps be better for the present not to speak of him [Densher]: not to speak of him to her niece, that is, unless she herself speaks to you first. But Maud thinks she won't" (174)(Book 4, Part II)

[[deleted user]]

@ 80 Lily wrote: "One of my questions about Lord Mark -- what makes him such a superior choice for Kate? I don't get the sense that he is necessarily wealthy nor ambitious, even though he may have a title based on his genealogy.

.."

You may have already found this:

Somewhere there is a line, "Lord Mark was going to be a great man."

Also, Maud simply believes in him. And, as Kate says, that pretty much mean it will be true or Maud will make it come true. I think he's already a member of the House at this point in time.

"His value was his future....The best thing about him doubtless, on the whole, was that Aunt Maud believed in him" (169)(Book 4, Part II).

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "I thought it was interesting that first positive flaw James attributes to Kate was her dismissing of Susan Stringham. Kate has shown no lack of sympathy previously -- she was responsive to Merton -..."

Did James present that as a "flaw" ... or simply an observation?

The section I'm assuming you're referring to: "Susan Shepherd at least bored the niece--that was plain; this young woman saw nothing in her -- nothing to account for anything, not even for Milly's own indulgence: which little fact became in turn to the latters' mind a fact of significance" (171)(Book 4).

I don't know what significance...but I'm sure that line is important.

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "Milly is generally reckoned to be modelled on his dead cousin, on whom he had a youthful crush."

Madge is right. James had a cousin, a cousin full of life, Minnie Temple who died at about 22/23 years old. Henry James had a bit of a crush on her, as did, for a time, his older brother, William, and also Oliver Wendal Holmes (later an American Supreme Court justice).

I think she died of consumption. ? Whatever it is when you cough up blood all the time and then finally die. That's what she died of. When Holmes was interested in her, seemingly seriously, William James wrote him a letter warning him off...due to her illness.

I think perhaps Henry James carried a good deal of guilt. He had left the US for Europe, (Italy), and exchanged a good number of letters with Minnie. Before he had left they had spoken, albeit probably rather wistfully given Minnie's health, of traveling Europe together. (I'm sure there would have been a chaparone.) When Henry is in Italy, Minnie writes him a letter that her health has seemed to improve and that she is ready to come and join him. I forget the next detail. James either never answered her letter, or, he wrote her that he was going to return to the US and for her not to come. He never saw her alive again.

I always kind of think that in creating these American heroines who travel to Europe, that James is giving life to Minnie, and in his own fashion, helping her travel to Europe like she had always wanted to do.

[[deleted user]]

Susan "Susie" Shepherd Stringham.

Someone above had remarked on Shepherd, shepherding Millie around Europe. I would agree. (I'll try to find that post to properly attribute.)

No spoilers. (view spoiler)[

(Mrs.) Susan Shepherd Stringham: believes herself “in a position, as she believed, of knowing much more about Milly Theale than Milly herself knew, and yet of having to darken her knowledge as well as make it active" (121)(Book 3, Part I).

Although Mrs. Stringham ALWAYS strikes me as thinking that she knows more, knows better, in this case, I read the sentence as referring to that visit she had with Milly's doctor when Milly wasn't there. I think it means that she DOES know more than Milly....I think the doctor told her a little more than he had told Milly; but she DID have to darken this knowledge, ie, to pretend in front of Milly that she didn't know how ill Milly was; and she DID have to make the knowledge active, because she had to use the info the doctor gave her to pace Milly's trip and try to keep Milly as healthy as possible...maybe the doctor gave her some advice, do this, don't do that.


"an education in the occult [that IS an intriguing line] -- she could scarce say what to call it -- had begun for her the day she left New York with Mildred" (122).

"Mildred" Mildred was a very popular girl's name around the turn of the century. (My grandmother's name was Mildred.) So I thought perhaps James, here, was giving Milly a bit of the common touch. That, "though she had depth" and had whatever it was that Mrs. Stringham saw in her-*-Mildred was a regular girl...not hoity-toity. It is of Old English origin, and the meaning of Mildred is "gentle strength". {How perfect is that?} An Anglo-Saxon name. Saint Mildred (eighth century) was an abbess from a royal household noted for her gentleness and kindness.

* Bill, I agree with you. Although I know that James is trying to make us see this young woman of great consciousness or greatness...the fact is that when I see her through the eyes of Mrs. Stringham, I like her less.

OMG: “Mrs Stringham's little life had often been visited with shy conceits--secret dreams that had fluttered [a dove can flutter...so maybe Milly is the answer to her prays] their hour between its narrow walls without, for any great part, so much as mustering courage to look out of its rather dim windows” (122).

And dim, I think, might refer either to the visibility of the windows or to Mrs. Stringham's mental capacity. But what a sentence. It says so much.


Mrs. Stringham [I think the String in her name is to show us what a stringy, thin life she has on her own. I think she lengthens it to Susan Shephard {! Another word with religious overtones---she can “shephard” Milly.} Stringham in order to try to make her personhood seem more full)


(She sees herself as a romantic – I don’t actually think she is one) sees herself as one who “sees” Milly better than anyone else. “the best magazines;” “a literary mission;” “she bristled with discriminations;” (she knows better than others); “a revelation;” goes to concerts—not because she enjoys them, but with “patience and an economy of passion;” ---I think she goes because she thinks she is the kind of person who patronizes the arts;
“she felt her new friend would have done her an ill turn if their friendship shouldn’t develop,” (124).!

Mrs. S., I think, has never really lived her own life. Lived w/1st husband until his death. Then with her mother until HER death. Then through the “love-interest” stories in magazines. It strikes me that she does what she does to feed her self-image. Goes to the library “for knowledge,” --- not because she loves reading. Writes little pieces for “the best magazines” to further her “literary mission,” --- never writes stories or novels because she loves to write. (I think she believes that God is on her side. Note all the religious overtones when Mrs. Stringham is involved.) Mrs. Stringham has “a revelation” regarding Millie (124). Attends concerts for culture --- not because she in any way enjoys them. Taking Milly in hand, she can benevolently impart culture, be a part of the “pathos,” the tragically romantic past surrounding Milly, and do it on Milly’s dime. SHE can “save” Milly; Milly will reflect so well on herself. “her justified faith” (162), “the pilgrim from Boston” (162), “the Puritan finally disencumbered” (219).


MMM. I’ve started to noticed religious-toned words in conjunctions with Millie, too. “[…] she had on behalf of her companion a divination almost as deep” (189). She, too, has had a number of revelations. “as if I [Milly] had been on my knees to the priest” (205). Methinks James is using these words to color our perception of the Americans: closer to their faith-based roots in contrast to the British. “these pilgrims” referring to Americans (240).

(hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Susan "Susie" Shepherd Stringham, continued.

What a delightful line: (view spoiler)[

"she had now no life to lead; and she honestly believed that she was thus equipped for leading Milly's own" (128). "No other person whatever, she was sure, had to an equal degree this qualification..."

Too rich.

Oh, look! "in her view ... it was life enough to simply feel her companion's feelings" (129).


And...does Mrs Stringham start manipulating....although in a romantic, well-intentioned way, Milly into feeling the romantic feelings Mrs Stringham thinks she should be feeling...you know...so that Mrs Stringham can then feel them through Milly.

I'm a wondering now. Is she so used to writing narratives for New England magazines that she thinks Millie's life a a magazine story that needs shaping?

"The mine [Milly} but needed working and would certainly yeild a treasure. She wasn't thinking either, of Milly's gold" (136). So...is Mrs Stringham some sort of emotional vampire?

She bullies Milly....but Milly is so gentle that she lets it go. "Milly made in general the most of her good friend's jokes; but she humoured this one a little absently, 'Oh yes, you do bully me.' (137).


Mrs. Stringham's alone visit with Milly's doctor. You know, I'm not at all sure that the doctor actually said that Milly was desparately ill. Yes, she has a haggard look, but she's just lost her family. A little haggardness is to be expected.

I'm truly, truly wondering whether Mrs Stringham "slanted" the doctor's words to have Milly almost dying because that would be so much more romantic.

"He hadn't, however, in fact... said something that immensely mattered..... It was only as if [or so interpretted Susan Stringham] only as if he miht perhaps after all have been going to. ...

"and if the Zealous guest [Mrs Stringham] had had five minutes by herself with the Doctor this was clearly no more at his instance than at her own. Almost nothing had passed between them but an easy exchange of enthusidams in respect to the remedial properties of 'Europe'" (138).

I hadn't seen this when I read the book before...but now...I think Mrs Stringham at her core---which she probably refuses to look at---WANTS Milly to die romantically. Oh, the pathos that would then fill the empty, empty life of Mrs. Stringham.

And then, too, well, maybe Milly really was taken with Densher when he was in America...

but I think that's open to question. Here on page 142, one possible view is that Mrs. Stringham "pushed" her. Stringham, it seems, WANTED to have the comfort of seeing someone in London that they actually knew. She put forward the idea to Milly: "Haven't I understood from you, for that matter, that you gave Mr. Densher something of a promise?" (142).

"Milly's look...completely vague" Milly "required much reminding before it came back to her that she had mentioned to this companion just afterwards the confidence expressed by the personage in question [Densher] in her never doing so dire a thing as to come to London without, as the phrase was, looking a fellow up" (143). A nothing "promise." Until Mrs Stringham got hold of it. Milly had thouht she herself might have been a bit too free in making such a promise. Mrs Stringham, bless her lonely, romantic soul, was "rather sorry to have missed Mr Densher. She had thought of him again after that, the elder woman; she had likewise gone so far as to notice that Milly appeared not to have done so" (143).

Curiouser and curiouser.

Oh my. "It hadn't occurred to her [Stringham] before to exaggerate - it had not occured to her that she could ; but she seemed to become aware to-night that there had been just enough in this relation to meet, to provoke, the free conception of a little more.

She presently put it that , at any rate, promise or no promise...{they could meet Densher}" (144).

I hadn't realized before that there was a bit of a manipulator there in Mrs Sringham. Oh, what plans Susie and Maud must have collaborated on in their girlhood days. I just don't fully trust her. (hide spoiler)]

[MadgeUK]

Adelle @ 114: Brits were close to their religious roots at this time too. The reference to Pilgrims is presumably to the Pilgrim Fathers. And 'shepherd' has religious connotations - I have likened her to a Guardian Angel. There are a lot of religious allusions in this novel.

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "Adelle @ 114: Brits were close to their religious roots at this time too. The reference to Pilgrims is presumably to the Pilgrim Fathers. And 'shepherd' has religious connotations - I have likene..."

Yes, I appreciated your likening SS to a Guardian Angel. :)...I did try to catch up on the reading and read through the posts. I hadn't been aware, though, that the British were "close to their religious roots" too at this period. Thanks, Madge. I like little tidbits of history.

[Lily]

Wonderful analysis of WotD, Adelle!

More later -- I just deleted my initial comments.

[Bill]

Adelle,

I read it as an ability to disconnect from people, dismiss them -- put them off from her emotionally. It's the only really negative comment that James has made about her, and it's not far from Milly's discovering Kate is more complex than she thought at first.

(view spoiler)[I forget if you know the plot. I may be reading backward from that. Knowing that Kate will totally betray Lily, it seemed the first foreshadowing. (hide spoiler)]

[Silver]

Adelle wrote: Maybe this has already been answered. Milly didn't tell Kate because Mrs Stringham told Milly that Mrs Lowder asked that Milly not say anything on that to Kate.
.."

I remember that Milly was asked not to speak of him, because Mrs. Lauder did not want Deshner mentioned before Kate considering she does not want to feed Kate's feelings for him.

But it seems as if Milly was going the extra mile in taking it to the extreme as even after Deshner was in there presence again Milly wanted her acquaintance with him to be concealed. As she had even hatched a plot in which she wanted to attempt to see him before he saw Kate when he returned and tell him to pretend like he did not know her.

I am sure that is a bit beyond what Mrs. Lauder had originally in mind. For once Deshner was in fact within their company again, not speaking about him becomes a bit irrelevant.

Unless Milly was at that point just embarrassed about her acquaintance being made known since she had not said anything of it to Kate, and yet Kate herself never mentioned Deshner in Milly's presence, thus there would be no reason for her to have told Kate of it.

I just did not quite see what purpose keeping the acquaintance concealed even after Deshner had returned would serve.

[[deleted user]]

Lily wrote: "Wonderful analysis of WotD, Adelle!

More later -- I just deleted my initial comments."

I HATE it when that happens!

(thank you, Lily, when I had a chance to read a longer stretch I started really enjoying the book again.)

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "...I think he's already a member of the House at this point in time..."

"He had been a short time in the House, on the Tory side, but had lost his seat on the first opportunity, and this was all he had to point to. However, he pointed to nothing; which was very possibly just a sign of his real cleverness, one of those that the really clever had in common with the really void. Even Aunt Maud frequently admitted that there was a good deal, for her view of him, to bring up the rear. And he wasn't meanwhile himself indifferent--indifferent to himself--for he was working Lancaster Gate for all it was worth: just as it was, no doubt, working him,...." Book 4, Chapter 2, p. 200 (Modern Library Edition)

Lord Mark still hardly seems auspicious to me with out his being underwritten financially by someone. "...He might do great things--but they were all, as yet, so to speak, he had done."

[Bill]

Modifications made.

Sorry, all. Some part of my mind has decided that Milly Theale is really Lily Theale. I know a number of Lily's. :-( No Millys.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Adelle,

I read it as an ability to disconnect from people, dismiss them -- put them off from her emotionally. It's the only really negative comment that James has made about her, and it's not far ..."

Mmmm...true. Even a bit earlier, I think. Now that you've got me thinking backwards, I think there were indications of this earlier. (And remember, I do like Kate.) Despite the fact that she professes her love for Densher (and I do believe she loves--in Kate's way-- Densher. Now that you are making me think backwards, I have had to reaccess "how" Kate loves Densher.)

Time constraints. Bill, I have to find my cat in 5 minutes and stuff him in a carrying-case and drive him away.

So quick like.... There were 2 or 3 passages where Kate and Densher were together. And once they were through talking and they had to part, Kate was a little distant there, too. Business--even if it's "love business"--has been taken care of, and she puts that aside and moves on. Even when Densher told her he was going to America. She wasn't emotional about it.

But consider, Densher himself, is a bit of a cold fish.... or, a bit dismissive of people that he doesn't directly care about.

Book 2, Part I:

Kate speaking of her family. "...I sahll try for everything. That...is how I see myself acting for them [them being her family]."

D: "'For "them"?--and the young man extravagantly marked his coldness. 'Thank you!'"

K:"Don't you care for them?"

D: "Why should I? What are they to me but a serious nuisance?"(102)

Well...they ARE the family of the woman he professes to love and Kate has made it clear that she has ties to them.

Everyone is this book is using.

[MadgeUK]

Adelle: What ARE you doing with your cat??!!

Given Kate's descriptions of her family, it isn't surprising that Densher doesn't want much to do with them!

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Madge: I gots two cats. One, my darling, (with me in my photo), has the personality and grooming habits of Liberace. Oh, what a groomer. My other nother cat has the personality and grooming habits (as I imagine them in some of his films) of Billy Bob Thorton.

THIS is the cat I crated up. Twice a year I take him to be shaved. (A lion cut. OH. SO. CUTE.) 'Cuz he can't be bothered to groom himself, and there's only so much his brother can do for him, and he starts to smell bad.

He doesn't like the session itself. But he DOES love showing off his sleek little body after he's been "done." And he's grateful and affectionate after the procedure, knowing that his family will now pet him again.

[Bill]

I guess throwing him into the machine isn't an option. :-)

[[deleted user]]

Tried that. (lol. no. i didn't. :) tired of bathing him in the tub. thinking i have enough money to have him shaved twice a year. seems worth it.)

[MadgeUK]

LOL. I guess he is a persian. Their poor little tongues can get a bit lazy:D. y mother used to groom our prize blue persian cat with oats = she brushed them through his coat to clean it and make it shine.

[[deleted user]]

Kate. :( I spent my time writing elsewhere. Not much time left for Kate. I probably won't look up actual quotes. Sadness.

I do feel for Kate. She has this overriding sense that her family lives in poverty. Yet.... they the family traveled when she was young (to economize) ... and even Marian has a servant ...

So they didn't live in absolute poverty. But they KNEW how very poor they were.

And the messages she grew up with. The gifts that Aunt Maud gave the children. Their mother taught them to be distainful of the gifts---because what Aunt Maud gave them wasn't enough. So... the children grow up with this strong entitlement thinking.

Mmmm. Maybe....maybe.... (I'm thinking outside the book here.) .... Maybe Lionel Croy's "disgrace" came about in part because his wife wanted more more more and he tried --- by hook or by crook --- to get it for her. Could be.


And then, too, oh, Kate. Repeatedly she's very definately given the internal message that her only value is in what she can deliver for others. (1) For her father. I'm sure there's a good quote along the lines of "What good are you to me Kate if you don't bring me money?"

"If he recognised his younger daughter's happy aspect as a tangible value, he had from the first still more exactly appraised every point of his own" (61).



(2) Her sister, Marian. I KNOW there's a good quote along the lines of "You are no good to me Kate unless you bring me money."

"Well, I wouldn't have you---wouldn't receive you at all, I can assure you--if he [father] had made you any other answer [than go make us some money]" (81).



(3) Aunt Maud. Maud has said---and doubtless has made clear to Kate---that the fact that Kate is her niece means nothing to her. There is some value in Kate that Maud is trying to use to her own advantage. Maud is prepared to use Kate all the way. Kate: "She will devour me if I'm not careful" --- Or words to that effect.

(4) and then there's Densher. And they're using each other, too. "Any deep harmony that might eventually govern them [so they don't have that harmony as of yet] would not be the result of their having much in common--having anything in fact fut their affection; and would REALLY find expalnation in some sense, on the part of each, of being poor where the other was rich" (87). A symbiotic relationship---AS LONG AS THEY EACH WERE GETTING VALUE OUT OF THE OTHER. Will that continue to be the case?

I don't see Densher thinking of how much he loves Kate. "Merton Densher had repeatedly said to himself--and from far back--that he would be a fool not to marry a woman whose value would be in her differences" --- and he quickly recognized Kate as such (87).

And Kate needs---perhaps not Densher himself FOR himself----but what he can give her. "He represented what her life had never given her and certaily, without some such aid as his, never would give her; all the high dim things she lumped together as of the mind" (87).

In a way, Kate and Densher begin their relationship on this basis. I don't want to say honest crooks... but... something along those lines. They are honest in that they both recognize that the other person has something they need. "They had found themselves regarding each other straight" (89).

Although.....I do think that Densher is physically very attracted to Kate. Well, she is beautiful almost beyond belief.

Interestingly, it is through Aunt Maud, it seems to me, that Kate, in the end, is going to establish a sense of self-worth. Maud thinks very highly of Kate. She accommodates Kate with Densher because she doesn't want to lose Kate...Kate holds value for her. Kate wants to find out just how high her value is.

Ah. Kate to Milly regarding Aunt Maud: "'You may ask,' Kate said, 'what in the world I have to give; and that is indeed just what I'm trying to learn" (170).

[[deleted user]]

The Alps.

(1) Thanks to Lily, with her Background post, we know the the walk was about 3 miles. "always going up, up" (134)


Therefore....Milly wasn't terribly ill and frail at that time.

(2) The book [the Tauchnitz. I loved the book! And I rather like how this ... seems ... to tie together:

Mrs. Stringham is sure that she'll find the explanation for Milly, one that "would explain everything and more than everything, would become instantly the light in which Milly was to be read" (130).

Except....as we learned earlier... Mrs. Stringham doesn't read. (Some scene...in which Mrs. Stringham was capable of naming for Milly the books Milly should read...and then... a bit embarrassed... because then it came out to Milly that Mrs. Stringham hadn't actually read the books.) So... I'm not terribly certain that she will be able read Milly. Maybe she will never really understand Milly. She just "believes" she does.

"It all came back of course to the question of money" (133) and somehow that, it seems to me, is how Mrs Stringham reads Milly. THAT in large part is what makes Milly "great" for Mrs. Stringham. "that was what it was to be really rich" (133). Real richness "lurked between the leaves of the uncut but antiquated Tauchnitz" (133) that Milly "had mechanically possessed herself" before she went on that walk.

The book is uncut! The pages are still uncut! (LOL....like the books in Gatsby's library. There....because they are "supposed" to be there; but they're not being read.)

And the book is antiquated. It's old. And STILL the pages are uncut!

The Tauchnitz books were inexpensive paperbacks that were only supposed to be available in Europe. Had the books been purchased directly for Milly, they would have been expensive editions. Susan was in Europe a long time ago....without much money. Might the book be one of Susan's, that she brought along on the trip for Milly...because it's a book that "should be read"....and all these years have passed....and the book has never even been browsed, let alone read.

And then, too, the way James wrote the last bit of that sentence: "she [Milly] had mechanically possed herself" of the book.

James doesn't say she picked it up. And really, why would she pick up and bring along a book she's never even browsed? I'm thinking here that Mrs. Sringham hands her the book, and Milly mechanically takes it.

But the riches, Mrs. Stringham has thought, lurk between the pages---WHICH HAVE NEVER BEEN OPENED. How sad must be Mrs. Stringham's life.

And then, I also loved that closing bit:

Mrs. Stringham, on finding the book, "had taken it up and, with the pencil attached to her watch-guard, had scrawled a word - 'a bientot!.

I just loved that! It's too perfect. She scrawls...to show what a free spirit she is. Both she and Milly speak English. Yet Mrs. Stringham, to show how cultured she is, writes in French.

That so strikes me as Susan Stringham. She's all about appearances.

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "LOL. I guess he is a persian. Their poor little tongues can get a bit lazy:D. y mother used to groom our prize blue persian cat with oats = she brushed them through his coat to clean it and make it..."

Oats? He's a short hair now, but when his hair starts growing back, I'll give oats a try.

If it works out well, I post a pretty picture. Thanks Madge.

[Bill]

Adelle,

I think you're right in with regard to Kate and her family. Aunt Maud certainly wishes to use Kate by marrying someone whose position will be an advantage to her. Kate's value is in her beauty which will allow her to marry up.

But I disagree about your analysis of the conversation between Merton and Kate. I think James is talking about the possibly deep harmony that may exist after years and years. They begin with affection, which is just fine, I think. And some harmony. And then, I think James is saying, this is very much a situation of opposites attractive. Merton recognizes he needs to be with a more extroverted girl to help him from being condemned to his shyness. There doesn't seem to me anything questionable about this sort of relationship. You can love someone and recognize that they're good for you at the same time.

And then St. Milly the Dove. I don't she does anything grasping. She wants a taste of life which she fears she won't have, if I remember correctly, "very long."

But the social world, yes, is very much about value received.

[[deleted user]]

Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "...I think he's already a member of the House at this point in time..."

"He had been a short time in the House, on the Tory side, but had lost his seat on the first opportunity, and..."

Ah! I had missed that. Lost his seat already has he? So...Maud thinks, perhaps???, that with an incredible woman beside him, a perfect dinner party hostess, he can achieve whatever Maud defines as greatness?

Mmm. OK. How about this? Not a spoiler....but I'm supposing...maybe you don't like to read supposings that wander AND wonder too far from the text....which is not to say they're invalid....just not explicitly spelled out...but then, so much of James is "not explicitly spelled out." (view spoiler)[

Lord Mark. What if he's gay. If out of every 100 people, what? 5 to 10 are gay, and if there are 20 people at that dinner party, then the odds are that at least one of them is gay. My money is on Lord Mark. If it's 10%, then two people at the dinner party are probably gay, and maybe that would be Susie.

Perhaps... rumors of his so being contributed to his losing his seat. And what might put those rumors to rest better than marrying a woman, an attractive woman, a woman who will show well (so important in this book). Also, a great hostess. With connections...to Maud.

I don't know how old Lord Mark is. But he's bald. Maybe he just went bald early. Maybe balding later in life and simply hasn't had any desire to marry. Maybe because he's gay.

Now you KNOW that Densher would like to Kate to bed. I think that's why he keeps asking her to marry him. Well, one of the reasons. Holds her hands. Etc.

But I don't get the sense that Lord Mark is lusting after Kate. Maybe there's a reason for that, ie, because he's gay.

Also, wouldn't maybe James like to have a man who likes men in his book? If you read some of the affectionate, flirty letters that James wrote to some of his attractive young male friends...

Anyway. Thoughts. Now I have to clean the house.

(hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Adelle,

.And then St. Milly the Dove. I don't she does anything grasping. She wants a taste of life which she fears she won't have, if I remember correctly, "very long."

.."

I don't think I said or implied that Milly was grasping. I don't think she is. So I'm in agreement with you there.

If I've time, I'll write you back regarding Kate and Densher. Maybe it's not much more than a difference in semantics.

[Bill]

Adelle,

I don't think I said or implied that Milly was grasping. I don't think she is. So I'm in agreement with you there.

You said, "Everyone is this book is using." I don't think St. Milly the Dove is using in any kind of grasping or offensive or questionable way. But that was the line to which I was referring.

[[deleted user]]

Mmm, I did say that. What a broad, sweeping, almost-but-not-quite-true-and-therefore-not-true thing for me to say. :) I stand corrected: Almost everyone in this book is using.

:). You, Bill, are a detail-oriented man. Ah, would that I were more so myself.

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "...If it's 10%, then two people at the dinner party are probably gay, and maybe that would be Susie...."

And what happens to one's reading of the interactions of Susie towards Milly if that hypothesis holds up? Is it there in the text, or is one only overlaying possibilities? Words like "dark," "understanding better than self", occult,... No apparent attempts at remarriage by a romantic writer. Effusive statements of Milly's beauty. Careful control of own behavior and redirection to those of care giving and gaining access to the benefits (e.g., European travel) of Maud's fortune. Is what is there consistent with the shadows and hints one would have expected of the time, or is there too little and this is all unsupported gossip mongering?

Are there any critics who go here? Who and what do they say?

[[deleted user]]

At 138 Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "...If it's 10%, then two people at the dinner party are probably gay, and maybe that would be Susie...."

And what happens to one's reading of the interactions of Susie towards Milly..."

the line that made me wonder, just a little, was where Susie's hand "trembled"... At being so near Millie? Or being so happy with Milly? Or something along those lines. But I do remember her "hand trembled."

But me, now, I wonder more about Lord Mark.

[[deleted user]]

Well, Lily, your question made made curious. So I googled. There ARE critics who thought that Susan Stringham was or might have been gay. Then anther page writes that that was the disgrace of Lionel Croy. Nary a word yet on Lord Mark.

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "Well, Lily, your question made me curious. So I googled. There ARE critics who thought that Susan Stringham was or might have been gay. Then another page writes that that was the disgrace of L..."

Adelle -- how about some links on what you found? Over on the resources thread, probably?

[Bill]

Maybe they're all gay. :-)

It explains Susan Stringham's enthusiasm for Milly, even if it doesn't explain my all time fave description of Milly as having a "high, dim, charming, ambiguous oddity" which is better than beauty.

But on the difficulty of understanding that line, I'm intrigued by this -- because I'm looking more and more at Henry James' description of people as unintentional descriptions of his prose in particular...James' writing is something of a high, dim, charming ambiguous oddity.

This Milly on Kate, BVol I, Book Fourth, III.

...she wondered if the matter hadn't mainly been that she herself so so "other," so taken up with the unspoken; the strangest thing of all, still subsequently, that when she asked herself how Kate could have failed to feel it she became conscious of being here on the edge of a great darkness. She should never know how Kate truly felt about anything such a one as Milly Theale should give her to feel. Kate would never -- and not from ill will nor duplicity, but from a sort of failure of common terms -- reduce it to such a one's comperehension or put it within her convenience.

I have often thought how "other" James' sensibility was, that common terms were what we don't have, and the right words are what James is looking for.

I'm off to a wedding. See you in the middle of next week. Unless of course you'll be at the wedding. Now, that would be interesting. :-)

[MadgeUK]

...or is there too little and this is all unsupported gossip mongering?...Are there any critics who go here? Who and what do they say?

I don't think it is so much 'gossip mongering' Lily, as more up to date analysis. Such things could not be written in James' day and many have only surfaced since the 1980s, so critics have been making up for lost time. I haven't read any specific biographies of Henry James but from time to time in Introductions to his novels and in TV documentaries etc. I have seen references to all the things Adelle raises. There have even been hints of an incestuous liaison with his brother William. The James' appear to have been a very eccentric family with a more than usual number of psychological problems between them. (Not that I am suggesting that homosexuality is a psychological problem.)

There are some relevant points about James' personal life and how it influenced his writing here (I may have posted this previously.) The writer also quite rightly points out how much the Oscar Wilde trial and prosecution influenced (frightened?) homosexuals of James' time:-

http://www.glbtq.com/literature/james...

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "...or is there too little and this is all unsupported gossip mongering?...Are there any critics who go here? Who and what do they say?

I don't think it is so much 'gossip mongering' Lily, as more ..."

I think Madge makes good points. At that time, if one were homosexual, one would want to be discreet. Especially if one's livilihood depended on selling books to the public.

James was acquainted with Oscar Wilde....and Wilde, remember, was given a prison sentence of two years hard labor. So...discretion, I think, would be totally understandable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde

The article Madge linked (Thank you) mentioned a petition in support of Wilde that James refused to sign. According to Sheldon Novick (Henry James: The Mature Master, page about 243), James had made inquiries, the thinking was that the petition wouldn't do any good, and no one of prominence signed it.


So far as I have read, there's no definite "proof" that Henry James was gay. But letters to some of young friends are quite suggestive.

[MadgeUK]

It has been suggested that he may not have been a 'practising' gay because of all his fears about prosecution etc but his inclinations would seem to have been that way.

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "...http://www.glbtq.com/literature/james......"

That's quite an article, Madge, even if you may have had to bring it to our attention a couple of times to get us to read it!

Although the article has much more and I encourage perusing it all, in noticing this post this morning, I realized readers deserved at least a tempting sample related to WotD:

"James's many close friendships with women have received a great deal of critical and biographical attention. Following the author's lead in his autobiographical Notes of a Son and Brother (1914), critics concentrated on James's early involvement with his cousin Minny Temple, whose death in 1870 was thought to be one of the reasons behind his decision to remain single."

[Linda2]

I also read the next article on L.P. Hartley. I've read The Go-Between, knowing nothing about him, but now I find that I'm interested in some of his other works.

[Frances, Moderator]

I remember reading The Go-Between as a teenager and finding it incredibly powerful-I went on to read The Hireling and Eustace and Hilda which I also enjoyed very much-as I recall they used the same device in which the reader is able to understand more about what is happening than the narrator does. Thanks for the reminder-I'd like to reread them.

[Bonnie]

This was quite a mind-expanding thread.

I found Book 3 hard to follow, especially the dinner party scenes. Ambiguous antecedents, oblique dialogue esp between Mille and Lord Mark.
Millie referred (mentally) to a handsome woman in a high gown, and Maud's niece, and Kate Croy. I started thinking there was another character at the table.