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Wings of the Dove, The: Week 2 - Book Third & Forth
No apology is needed Silver - I hope all is now well on all fronts. I have a very heavy, chesty cold and feel rotten!Some critics of WotD refer to it as a religious novel and Milly has been called a Christlike figure. I have therefore been intrigued by several allusions to Merton as a devil:
'It was another mark on his forehead: the pair of smudges from the thumb of fortune, the brand on the passive fleece, dated from the primal hour' and 'having tasted of the tree and being thereby prepared to assist [Kate] her to eat, this gives the happy tone of their whole talk...' Of Kate's Eve like qualities: 'She appeared to take up rather more seriously than she need the joke about her freedom to deceive. Yet she did this too in a beautiful way.'
There are more but I do not feel well enough to sort them out at present - have other readers noticed them?
Both of you -- feel better -- but don't get too close. I'm trying to stay healthy myself.`I don't know if I'm overstepping myself in what can be said at this point, but Milly is the dove -- and it has been thought of as a novel of redemption and it is Merton who is redeemed. I am sorry if that's too much.
But Merton at this point seems mostly inept. I'm intrigued by his certainty that he'll never make enough money to support a wife, and his resignation. It's interesting to me that Kate, with all her vitality, is attracted to him. I wonder to what extent it's pure attraction, to what extent it's pure rebellion, and to what extent it's a way to keep Mark at a distance.
But I haven't thought of Kate as Eve -- her deceptions appear to as necessary to survive (?) the oppressive expectations people have on her. I think Adelle pointed out that phrase where Kate talked about letting other people believe about what they chose.
I have a general question about Book III. I find James so worshipful of Milly that I was half tempted to push her off the mountain in Switzerland.
And after being extremely impressed and amused by the portraits of Kate, Lionel, Maud, and Merton -- we haven't really talked much about Book III -- I found all this Milly worship by Susan Stringham maddening. It wasn't merely the worship, it was that the reasons for the worship were difficult for me to ascertain. This was the section I found a lot of difficulty with interpreting what the sentences meant. This was where James seemed to be circling around subtleties that were too subtle for me.
Milly began to win herself into my good graces around the table at dinner at Maud's trying to figure out Lord Mark -- which is where I am now. I have to catch up.
Bill wrote: "I don't know if I'm overstepping myself in what can be said at this point, but I think Milly is the dove -- and it has been thought of as a novel of redemption and it is Merton who is redeemed. I'm..."In the attraction of Kate to Merton I cannot help but think at times of Isabel Osmond from "The Portrait of a Lady." I am inclined to think that part of the attraction is an act of rebellion. It is a way of Kate doing something just for herself and not what her aunt wants her to do, or what her father or sister or anyone else. But in doing this she may be misguided if indeed she is acting purely for the sake of acting on her own without really taking Merton into full consideration and wondering if involvement with him is in truth what would be in her best interests. I also think that it is a case of opposites attract. She is drawn to him I think because of the very ways in which they are different from each other.
I myself at this point in the story am on the fence about Merton. I find he is an interesting character and yet I am not certain I truly trust him.
I know what you mean about Book Three. Though I myself do overall like Milly, I had a touch time getting through those chapters and trying to follow everything that was going on. But than that seems to happen to me a lot within the reading of this book.
Silver, though, were you a little irritated about the way James seemed to worship her? You know, as a technique in literature or life -- constantly telling someone how wonderful someone is doesn't always create the desired effect. Milly was based on a beloved cousin of James, and it's the one thing I think hurts.
As for Kate, people's behavior may have many different reasons.
She may like Merton because opposites attract.
It may be a case of the heart's having reason that reason does not know.
She may like Merton because he's the opposite of everything her relatives want for her -- and she resents the pressure.
She may like Merton as an act of rebellion.
They could ALL be true -- which was makes people persist in their behaviors. It could be a mistake to try to isolate one.
And she may like Merton because if she simply wanted to marry Lord Mark there wouldn't be much of a plot.
Increasingly, I realize that at times that is a very important reason. The moral questions James wants to address need a situation.
Bill wrote: "Silver, though, were you a little irritated about the way James seemed to worship her. You know, as a technique in literature or life -- constantly telling someone how wonderful someone is doesn't ..."I have to admit I did not find myself particularly irritated by that. I did not get that same impression of it being worship as you did, but than in part that might have been because I was somewhat distracted during my reading of that part because of other things going on.
In regards to Kate, that is essentially what I just said.
Silver wrote: "Bill wrote: "Silver, though, were you a little irritated about the way James seemed to worship her. You know, as a technique in literature or life -- constantly telling someone how wonderful someon..."You listed all these reasons. I just wasn't clear if you weren't sure which reason or you thought all were possible. I think the latter is the more likely.
Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "Bill wrote: "Silver, though, were you a little irritated about the way James seemed to worship her. You know, as a technique in literature or life -- constantly telling someone how w..."Oh sorry for the confusion, personally I thought it may be a little of them all. I do not think it need be exclusively one or the other. But I think the various different reasons could feed into each other as it were. The fact that it is an act of rebellion might further enhance whatever other attraction to may have developed for him. Or she may have been drawn to him out of rebellion to than develop a greater attraction to him. Or the fact that they are such opposites from each other, and the fact that being with him is an act of rebellion, are rolled up into one in which Kate herself could not really separate and define her reasons for why she is attracted to him.
Milly, the Dove, represents the Divine so James' extolling her virtues seems reasonable, if irritating at times.http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/en...
He describes her perfection in his Preface and one is left to wonder whether she is a posthumous adulatory tribute to his cousin who died young. He also calls her 'the heir to all the ages' and writes that 'the heroine of "The Wings of the Dove," [has] a strong and special implication of liberty, liberty of action, of choice, of appreciation, of contact--proceeding from sources that provide better for large independence, I think, than any other conditions in the world--and this would be in particular what we should feel ourselves deeply concerned with.'
For me this resonates with the advice of her doctor to pursue 'happiness' because only that will make her well. So there we have the 'Life, Liberty and pursuit of Happiness' theme in the American Constitution in a novel which pitches American characters against British ones. America as the City on the Hill and England as a corrupt progenitor, perhaps the 'English gentleman' personified by Lionel and the tempting devil of the 'longish, leanish, fairish young Englishman' which was Merton.
What has been irritating me this morning has been having to re-read sentences to figure out the antecedent of a pronoun, especially "she" or "her." I can get two very divergent meanings depending upon which woman I insert (usually at least the choice is between two names)!
I've noticed that too. Lily. When I was rereading the Preface this morning I had to go back a couple of paragraphs at one point to decide who exactly he was writing about! Have you also noticed his use of alliteration when writing about Susan Stringham? 'The first full sense of a situation really romantic' or 'Susan Stringham still sitting up'. She floats along on a sea of sibilants, lavishing largesse on a pure princess, which fits her fairy-godmother character:).
(I wonder if James' English teacher ever read his work and despaired?!)
Madge,Yes, appropriate for her as Christ as the dove but not necessarily effective as writing. Personally, I found it off-putting. I was/am perfectly happy to like Milly, but I felt like I was introduced to a girl by someone who kept telling me how wonderful she was and wouldn't let her open her own mouth. She's ultimately at a disadvantage.
It's almost as bad as describing a potential blind date as "Christ-like". I'd definitely refuse the number. :-)
But this could be my own idiosyncratic reaction. I'm getting to like her again with Lord Mark.
Good note about "happiness" but it is the Declaration of Independence that talks about "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". This is also something which seems denied to Kate Croy.
The long ambiguous sentences are maddening. I don't think anyone likes them -- people who love The Wings of a Dove love it despite them. But his English teacher would have had no problem because his early work isn't like this. It's only the post 1900 late novels.
What's intriguing is what exactly James thought he was doing here by changing -- what impressions, sensations he thought he was getting at with the ambiguity.
Still, I'm committed to this novel because I think there's more baby than bathwater.
Consider this:
Perhaps he was one of the cases she had heard of at home—those characteristic of people in England who concealed their play of mind so much more than they showed it. Even Mr. Densher a little did that. And what made Lord Mark, at any rate, so real either, when this was a thing he so definitely insisted on? His type some how, as by a life, a need, an intention of its own, insisted for him; but that was all. It was difficult to guess his age—whether he were a young man who looked old or an old man who looked young; it seemed to prove nothing, as against other things, that he was bald and, as might have been said, slightly stale, or, more delicately perhaps, dry: there was such a fine little fidget of preoccupied life in him, and his eyes, at moments—though it was an appearance they could suddenly lose—were as candid and clear as those of a pleasant boy.
James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (p. 168). Kindle Edition.
I'm not sure I can unpack the meaning of "his type" insisting on its own personality, but the the general expression of an individual's inner life making a case for itself is powerful. And then clearly perceived uncertainties, whether he was young and looked old or old and looked young ending in the wonderful phrase "a fine little fidget of preoccupied life in him" the sense of life buried that won't be denied (despite being distracted) is powerful.
(And as a side-note to Lily and Adelle, so opposite from what we have in "The Waste Land.")
I did have a few goes at the paragraph -- but finally read it out loud and thought it really superb.
Good note about "happiness" but it is the Declaration of Independence that talks about "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".Sorry. We ignorant Brits are prone to mixing them up.
I would never think you ignorant, Madge. I think you guys just take the revolution personally. :-)History is always a problem if you're not a native. Once in England I was asked if I knew anything about English history.
I was terrified. How do you answer that? Yes, obviously, I knew something. But what would be considered obscure? I just stood there. Which was smart because he was forced to go first.
Then said, "Well, do you know who Henry VIII was?" And I thought to myself, "Whew, if we don't get into details, I definitely can place him."
But I guess he had met Americans who didn't because he was showing me a family heirloom from the time -- and probably had shown it a lot.
And then there are the Americans who can't put OUR civil war in the right century.
In considering the possibility of Milly being Christ-like, or the "dove" or otherwise representing some divine Godly/goodly presence, I cannot help but wonder is there in particular significance in Mrs. Stringham sometimes being referred to as Susan Shepherd?
Thanks for your good thoughts, everyone. I am going to start the book over again from the beginning with your ideas in mind and see how much more I can get from it. I am enjoying it, but I have a feeling I may have fallen asleep in a few places.
Laurele wrote: "I am enjoying it, but I have a feeling I may have fallen asleep in a few places...."I was having the same problem today just reading it! But, I'm not certain staying awake always helped! :-(
"When Milly smiled it was a public event--when she didn't it was a chapter of history."
How did others of you interpret the latter part of that sentence? It lost me.
(From just before Mrs. Stringham opens her watch case and then begins remembering times past.)
Lily wrote: "Laurele wrote: ""When Milly smiled it was a public event--when she didn't it was a chapter of history."How did others of you interpret the latter part of that sentence? It lost me.
(From just before Mrs. Stringham opens her watch case and then begins remembering times past.)"
Perhaps it is referring to how much is lost to the world when she does not smile. Or it may indicate that when she does not smile it reflects a greater depth to her than her smiles, maybe it is more honest or sincere in someway?
The first part of the line "When Milly smiled it was a public event" does have something of an almost frivolous ring to it, to me. The last part of the statement sounds much more profound.
In considering Mrs. Stringham's own reflections upon the past, maybe there is something about Milly's lack of a smiles that has a way of bringing back the memories of other people.
Or merely hyperbole, a time honored literary technique. Maybe nothing more than that to say she had a lovely smile and when she was sad one was sad for her.
Silver wrote: "Perhaps it is referring to how much is lost to the world when she does not smile.""When Milly smiled it was a public event--when she didn't it was a chapter of history."
Silver and Bill -- thanks for your hints. I just re-read the first paragraphs of the opening of Book III (Chapter 5). My interpretation is evolving towards: "When Milly smiles, she brings light, even joy, to all around her; when she doesn't, those around her become aware of her sad history -- the loss of her parents and family, her poor health. And, yes, I'd agree, James may be using a bit of hyperbole, with which he seems to approach his description of Mildred anyway. :-)
"...her [Mrs. Stringham's] own first sight of the striking apparition, then unheralded and unexplained: the slim, constantly pale, delicately haggard, anomalously, agreeably angular young person, of not more than two-and-twenty summers, in spite of her marks, whose hair was somehow exceptionally red even for the real thing, which it innocently confessed to being, and whose clothes were remarkably black even for robes of mourning, which was the meaning they expressed. It was New York mourning, it was New York hair, it was a New York history, confused as yet, but multitudinous, of the loss of parents, brothers, sisters, almost every human appendage, all on a scale and with a sweep that had required the greater stage; it was a New York legend of affecting, of romantic isolation, and, beyond everything, it was by most accounts, in respect to the mass of money so piled on the girl's back, a set of New York possibilities. She was alone, she was stricken, she was rich, and in particular was strange--a combination in itself of a nature to engage Mrs. Stringham's attention. But it was the strangeness that most determined our good lady's sympathy..." (Bold added.)
Phrases that lose me in the previous passage:"in spite of her marks"
"in particular was strange"
"it was the strangeness that most determined our good lady's sympathy"
"Strange" seems to my ear such an over-used, American word, especially for a writer so careful of word choice.
I didn't think James is particularly clear about Milly's poor health in Book III. I could have missed it as significant to the story yet.
I have noticed in the past the New York, Boston, Burlington sequence of characterizing the United States in James and Wharton -- or am I imagining that? (The Buccaneers does throw in Saratoga, Portrait of A Lady does use Albany.)Burlington, as many of you know, is near the home of the Shelburne Museum, housing the Americana collection initiated by Electra Havemeyer Webb. (Havemeyer is a name heavily associated with the sugar industry.) I have not read either Wharton's or James's biographies, but I have been curious in the past about the almost iconic use of Burlington to perhaps signify urban New England. I'm not sure it is pervasive in their work; I probably have just noticed because I worked in Burlington for several years. Each time, I have wondered, "why Burlington?"
The one other passage I'll call to our attention and then go away for this morning:"She had come on from Boston for that purpose; had seen little of the girl--or rather had seen her but briefly, for Mrs. Stringham, when she saw anything at all, saw much, saw everything--before accepting her proposal; and had accordingly placed herself, by her act, in a boat that she more and more estimated as, humanly speaking, of the biggest, though likewise, no doubt, in many ways, by reason of its size, of the safest. In Boston, the winter before, the young lady in whom we are interested had, on the spot, deeply, yet almost tacitly, appealed to her, dropped into her mind the shy conceit of some assistance, some devotion to render."
What "purpose"?
These preceding words don't quite make that clear:
"She moved, the admirable Mrs. Stringham, in a fine cloud of observation and suspicion; she was in the position, as she believed, of knowing much more about Milly Theale than Milly herself knew, and yet of having to darken her knowledge as well as make it active. The woman in the world least formed by nature, as she was quite aware, for duplicities and labyrinths, she found herself dedicated to personal subtlety by a new set of circumstances, above all by a new personal relation; had now in fact to recognise that an education in the occult--she could scarce say what to call it--had begun for her the day she left New York with Mildred." (Bold added.)
http://www.online-literature.com/henr...
Or, perhaps "that purpose" is buried in the succeeding text as "the shy conceit of some assistance, some devotion to render", i.e., to be a companion to Milly in her European travels?
Lily wrote: Or, perhaps "that purpose" is buried in the succeeding text as "the shy conceit of some assistance, some devotion to render", i.e., to be a companion to Milly in her European travels?."When I read it I presumed that the purpose being referred to was her companionship to Milly and their preparation for their travels together.
In reading the chapters about Milly and Mrs. Stringham, I could not help but think of a "Boston Marriage" A term that was applied in the late 19th century and early 20th century to refer to two women who lived together and were finically independent of a man. And there were some allusions to homosexuality in these relationships, but they were not seen strictly in those terms. It was often a way for educated women not to have to give up their ambitions and personal goals and dreams by being tied down in a typical domestic life of being wife and mother.
But I was not certain of the dates of when this term first came into use, so I looked it up to see if in fact it was even established during the time of James, and found out that apparently he makes use of the term in his book The Bostonians.
It's an interesting undercurrent, although I think "Susie" -- I like that -- is more a companion because it would be unsuitable for a girl like Milly to travel alone.Of course, Susie's feelings about Milly are nothing if not complex -- to me, they are what's least understandable.
"She moved, the admirable Mrs. Stringham, in a fine cloud of observation and suspicion; she was in the position, as she believed, of knowing much more about Milly Theale than Milly herself knew...This IMO links to Silver's observation of Susan being referred to as 'Shepherd' - a Guardian Angel perhaps?
Mill's illness is not specified throughout the novel, like Lionel's wickedness, it remains obscure. We can surmise what we like, whatever seems bad to us. A film I saw suggested cancer and opium addiction but James left both open to interpretation.
Adelle: I was very sorry to learn of your m-i-l's stroke and I hope that she makes as good a recovery as possible. It is good that you can at least read our discussion occasionally so as to take your mind off things.
MadgeUK wrote: This IMO links to Silver's observation of Susan being referred to as 'Shepherd' - a Guardian Angel perhaps?..."I like the idea of her being as a sort of Guardian Angel
The paragraph I quote in Message 12 begins this way:Lord Mark's intelligence meanwhile, however, had met her own quite sufficiently to enable him to tell her how little he could clear up her situation. He explained, for that matter—or at least he hinted—that there was no such thing, to-day in London, as saying where any one was. Every one was everywhere—nobody was anywhere. He should be put to it—yes, frankly—to give a name of any sort or kind to their hostess's "set." Was it a set at all, or wasn't it, and were there not really no such things as sets, in the place, any more?—was there any thing but the senseless shifting tumble, like that of some great greasy sea in mid-Channel, of an overwhelming melted mixture? He threw out the question, which seemed large; Milly felt that at the end of five minutes he had thrown out a great many, though he followed none more than a step or two; perhaps he would prove suggestive, but he helped her as yet to no discriminations: he spoke as if he had given them up from too much knowledge. He was thus at the opposite extreme from herself, but, as a consequence of it, also wandering and lost; and he was furthermore, for all his temporary incoherence, to which she guessed there would be some key, as great a reality as either Mrs. Lowder or Kate.
James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (pp. 166-167). Kindle Edition.
I've been thinking of Modernism and the Modern lately and the effect of WWI, but I'm struck how artificial that is. Yes, WWI was a shock, a shock difficult for Americans to imagine I think. But I think the entire 19th century was a series of disruptions, with Darwin threatening a literal interpretation of the Bible and the enormous pain of industralization, and the movement away from the natural cycles of planting and growing. Modernism shows up in the visual arts in the late 19th century, certainly.
There is Virginia Woolf's comment that human nature changed in 1910, although the context is not quite so earth shattering as it sounds.
And then I was thinking of James' lines above, the changes that seemed to be occurring just after the turn of the 20th century. The sense of something new and not entirely pleasant in the social relations of people, the sense of uncertainty of who anyone was anymore. "Everyone was everywhere." And there are moral tremors -- although I suspect this is in part a simply horror of change. "senseless shifting tumble, like that of some great greasy sea in mid-Channel, of an overwhelming melted mixture?" -- that's quite powerful if you read it slowly enough.
And then I thought back to Woolf's comment about human nature changing. The particular context was her maid asking her for advice on a hat, rather than staying mysteriously below stairs.
We are moving away from separation into a mingling of classes.
I think the same thing is true of The House of Mirth, which has at least some superficial resemblance to The Wings of the Dove -- I think particularly of the circumstance both Kate and Lily Bart found themselves in -- and Aunt Maud and Aunt Julia.
I think the context of the time was important to James.
Silver: Thanks for your note about the term Boston Marriage' which I had not heard about before. I do not think the English have an equivalent term, 'Companion' being the one generally used to describe one adult woman living with another, whether or not the relationship was sexual. It was a common enough relationship although of course Queen Victoria did not believe that there was such a thing as lesbianism:D.I see Susan as a necessary companion-cum-nurse to a sick person insistent upon travelling, someone who became more valuable as time passed and the illness progressed. Whether there was a sexual component in this and in other relationships is, like Milly's illness and Lionel's badness, not explicity referred to by the ever enigmaic James:).
There's such a thing as "lesbianism?" !!!I was thinking of the Mamet play, which I didn't see, but before which I never heard the term, although I've even lived in Boston. This is from Wiki:
"The term was little known until the debut in 2000 of the David Mamet play of the same name. Since 2000, many mentions of "Boston marriage" cite as examples the same few literary figures, in particular the Maine local color novelist Sarah Orne Jewett and Annie Adams Fields her late life companion, the widow of the editor of The Atlantic Monthly. There is often an assumption that in the era when the term was in use, it denoted a lesbian relationship. However, there is no documentary proof that any particular "Boston marriage" included sexual relations. In general, the amount of historical and social scientific knowledge of this phenomenon, and even of the currency of the term at the turn of the 20th century, is scant."
It was the 'sin which dared not speak its name' and so such a 'marriage' could not possibly include sexual relations otherwise prosecution and most certainly ostracisism would ensue. (I am not sure whether lesbians could be prosecuted since it didn't exist for them?!)
Every one was everywhere—nobody was anywhere. He should be put to it—yes, frankly—to give a name of any sort or kind to their hostess's "set." Was it a set at all, or wasn't it, and were there not really no such things as sets, in the place, any more?—was there any thing but the senseless shifting tumble, like that of some great greasy sea in mid-Channel, of an overwhelming melted mixture?Yes, I think these phrases are very telling Bill and are evidence of the times James was writing about and living through. Post WWI Edwardian literature and poetry (The Waste Land...) was full of this sort of speculation, especially where the class system was concerned. The Times They Were A-Changin'... (thank goodness!)
I also wonder if this was a perspective of a particular class. I don't know that the servant who asked Virginia Woolf about advice on buying a hat sense the great earthquake. Maybe she did. Or maybe she just thought it was great.I thought of House of Mirth. Were there any other Edwardian novels (strictly speaking, pre-1910, yes?) where you are particularly conscious of it? After 1917 we full on into literary modernism.
MadgeUK wrote: "Silver: Thanks for your note about the term Boston Marriage' which I had not heard about before. I do not think the English have an equivalent term, 'Companion' being the one generally used to des..."I do not necessarily think or mean to suggest that there was anything sexual between Milly and Susan though when they were first introduced I did have a moment when the possibility of it had come into my mind. But perhaps in part because they were actually in Boston the term just sort of sprang into my mind as their relationship/companionship was described, as it was something fairly common among American women around this time.
Though I know that it was common and necessary for unmarried women to travel with some form of a companion, and Milly having the extra needed assistance in considering her illness.
Bill wrote: "I would never think you ignorant, Madge. I think you guys just take the revolution personally. :-)History is always a problem if you're not a native. Once in England I was asked if I knew anythi..."
You should have said you had seen films and TV shows covering pretty much all of British history. And Henry VIII many, many many.....
Silver: As WotD was written after The Bostonians I would think it likely that the readers of the latter might have thought of Bostonian marriages in relation to Milly, Susan and Kate. Just another of James' titillating enigmas:).
Silver wrote: "In reading the chapters about Milly and Mrs. Stringham, I could not help but think of a "Boston Marriage" A term that was applied in the late 19th century and early 20th century to refer to two..."
I was just going to cite The Bostonians, at least on Olive's side. No source listed here:
http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.h...
But Merriam-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...
MadgeUK wrote: "It was the 'sin which dared not speak its name' and so such a 'marriage' could not possibly include sexual relations otherwise prosecution and most certainly ostracisism would ensue. (I am not sur..."What didn't exist for them? The law referred only to males?
Bill wrote: "I also wonder if this was a perspective of a particular class. I don't know that the servant who asked Virginia Woolf about advice on buying a hat sense the great earthquake. Maybe she did. Or mayb..."Is there any implication of lesbianism in H of M.? Or are you again replying to some statement above, but I know not which?
For the record, Rochelle, and based on a quick look, anal intercourse in England was forbidden since the Buggery Act under Henry VIII. This was expanded to include indecent acts between men in the 19th century. As I recall, the Bible specifically forbids lying with a men as woman, but not lying with a woman as a man -- probably because it was unclear what that would even mean. The focus is on penetration.Also relevant is that until the 20th century there wasn't a notion of "homosexuality". It was rather specific acts. Homosexuality as an idea, according to some, is very recent. Wiki says the first known use of the word "homosexual" in English was only 1895 and earlier in 19th century Germany. The issue was more sodomy.
An interesting and literary read in this regard is Tom Stoppard's play about A. E. Housman, "The Invention of Love."
But I'm really interested in the sense of change in England between 1900 and 1910 -- and the sense of it express in WofD but also that was expressed by Wharton in HofM.
If you would reply to specific posts, changing the content if necessary, I could follow your train of thought.I don't recall us discussing that in HofM.The rules were still iron-clad. But that book took place in NYC, not England.
Rochelle wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "It was the 'sin which dared not speak its name' and so such a 'marriage' could not possibly include sexual relations otherwise prosecution and most certainly ostracisism would ensue..."I to say the least not that familiar with the laws of homosexuality in England, but I know one of the reasons why in America the Boston Marriages were socially acceptable is because there was a general presumption that the women were only staying together until they found husbands to marry. Though whether the women themselves actually planned on ever getting married was another matter. But a lot of these "marriages" started between female students, it was viewed by society that the women were only staying with each other while they were going through school and eventually they would meet a man and be married.
Silver wrote: "the women were only staying with each other while they were going through school and eventually they would meet a man and be married"And it was more acceptable than a woman living alone, lest she be considered "loose."
Rochelle wrote: "If you would reply to specific posts, changing the content if necessary, I could follow your train of thought.I don't recall us discussing that in HofM.The rules were still iron-clad. But that bo..."
Post 32 -- which I did reference in the other group. Sorry. :-)
The time of the House of Mirth was distinctly later and represented a different sense of society than, say, The Age of Innocence.
Yes, Age was in the 1870's, although written later. But in Lily's world of 1905, the class rules were still rigid. "Old money" people were not quick to change. Thus her total humiliation in having to work in a millinery shop. That shop is our only view in the book of working class people. Look at what happens to Lily for not following the rules.I am also thinking of Downton Abbey, and the class upheavals so well presented during and after the war.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
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Ok now on to the book.
I find James' use of the expression "Everything" which I have noticed in the conversations of both Kate and Milly is frequently used in a sort of vague way in which just what this "everything" is that they are speaking of is not defined, and seems to have many possible meanings. The use of "Everything" seems to suggest something that is intangible, an sort of ideal, an understanding or lack of understanding, a thought, desire, want, an unknown something that stands just out of ones grasp. But there seems to be some emphases and significance placed upon the use of this expression. It is represented of something yet it seems to remain unknown just what that something is. I think in a way it might be what both Kate and Milly are seeking for in their lives, and they themselves may not fully know or understand just that is.
Also the idea of just how much worth and use one person has for another seems to be emerging as an important theme within this book. The idea is set up from the very first chapter with Kate's father, aunt and sister all seeking how they could use Kate for their own best advantage and what they want out of her, or what they think she owes them or what they deserve from her.
Now Kate, Milly, Lord Mark, and Merson Densher have all been spoken of in terms of what their value is to another person. The use of the word value when speaking of other people seems to come up often.
On a side note, as someone referred The Taming of the Shrew in relation to the name Kate, I found it at least someone interesting that James makes a referred to Nichols Nicklby by Dickens in which the heroine of that story is also named Kate.