Love and Longing in Bombay - March Group Read

[Anbu]

"This book is a collection of inter connected stories. In these stories, Chandra has covered the gamut of genres: there is a ghost story, a love story, a murder mystery, and a crime story, each tale joined to the others by the voice of the elusive narrator" the description in GR says so. :)

Aravind, stage set for you to lead your first group read.. Take it up from here.. :)

[dely]

I am ready, have already the book.

[Ahtims]

am not going to join in - I dont intend to buy the book (unless you all give a raving review and I end up spending my hard earned moolah, but with enjoyable results, just like I did with "Solo"

[Aravind]

Sorry for being late here..I have just started off with 'Dharma'.

[Anjali]

i dont think i want to join in as i do not intend to read this book unless i get 4 star reviews from you guys...

[Aravind]

It is a collection of 5 short stories, so I guess overall rating would be dodgy. We can try putting the ratings for individual stories in this discussion page I guess...

[Parikhit]

Not participating either. The name puts me off!

[dely]

Till now I have read the first two stories, Dharma and Shakti.
They are both an ok read, nothing special. They are not bad and have also a slow pace but till now nothing remains inside me, they don't "touch" me, they don't communicate me anything.

[Aravind]

Finished the first one. It didn't have anything Bombayish in it. The story could have been set anywhere. Story was kind of interesting and I should say I liked. It is about a man who is retiring to his family home that now appears haunted by something that, as it proceeded, I felt he doesn't want to remember. There is something moving in the narration, of that of guilt and nightmares that the story tries to unravel. I expected something more deep still, to be honest.

[dely]

But at the end (view spoiler)[is the dead kid Jago? Because he dresses the uniform he asked for his birthday and there is his name. So what does it mean? That following his dharma he has forgotten to "nurture" another part of himself? As if he had not cultivated enough his childhood? As if he has grown up too fast after the death of his brother. (hide spoiler)]

[Aravind]

dely wrote: "But at the end [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[He feels that his parents liked his brother more than him. She sitting in Soli's bed as usual, his father telling 'lovely style' etc. Also he sees this uncle getting mother's love and how she feels proud of him in olive uniform strikes him. What haunts, IMO, is his guilt and the feeling that he may not be as strong or as desired soldier as his brother whom he possibly hated as much as loved.
I am trying to find how dharma sticks here. I can only find it like him finally comming home after finishing off all his duties...?
'Jehangir' brings him the memories of his brother and childhood so he possibly dislike the name and even considers 'Jehangir' as dead and he takes a new identity of Jago. I first thought whether the dead person was Jago, but it doesn't mention as to whether they were twins, and Soli is being referred to as his brother so I thought maybe elder. That bit is still greyish.
(hide spoiler)]

[dely]

Aravind wrote: "[spoilers removed]
..."

Yes, perhaps to fulfill his dharma he had to make peace with himself (view spoiler)[and the sense of guilt for the death of his brother. Or he had to face earlier the death of Soli in order to dedicate more time for a funny childhood and not grow up so fast. The dharma perhaps had to include both the childhood and the adulthood and not only the second one. Once he made peace with himself his dharma was fulfilled (hide spoiler)].
You are right, Chandra could have been more deep; me too I would have appreciated more.

[dely]

I have finished the third story: Kama :/

Didn't liked it at all, would give 1 star to this story.
First because it is a thriller-mystery and I don't like this genre. But the worst thing is that there is (view spoiler)[ sex. Not this is the problem but the way it was explained, the words that Chandra has used, so vulgar, telling the meet of Sartaj and his ex-wife. I am not a bigot but I don't like vulgarity. The desire can be explained in a lot of ways and Chandra did it in the only way I don't like. I have preferred much more how he dealt with the story of desire of Mr. and Mrs. Petal because Chandra doesn't tell details but we can however understand everything; people can do a lot of things moved by desire. And I understand this, and it is ok, I don't judge. Who, at end, has killed Mr. Patel? His son? Why? Mr. Patel didn't force his wife to do such things. (hide spoiler)]

[Aravind]

I have just started that...I was thinking about the Shakti part. (view spoiler)[I was wondering what was the significance of Ganga and Asha in the whole story. Was it put to just contrast over Shiela's bit? Like Ganga too is powerful, the way she kept moving between places, taking up more work and despite being in a desperate situation, without husband, she was able up bring her daughter into a better state(who becomes nurse and gets married to a school teacher). Shiela too came up from such a level. Also, their husbands (both her and Dolly's) doesn't have much significance, like it says in the beginning she is the person who brought Bijilani his prosperity, likewise it is Dolly who brought Boatwallah down to debt. I liked the women politics in it. But otherwise, I am allergic to this kitty party, upper class women socialites gossipping dramas which at times this story resembled. Did you get the gist of that Shanghai Club, what was the significance of that?(Shakti is the Hindu goddess of power, I guess you might be already knowing that :) (hide spoiler)]

[Aravind]

First because it is a thriller-mystery and I don't like this genre.

:(...

I love detective thrillers...hope this is a good one.

[dely]

Aravind wrote: "I have just started that...I was thinking about the Shakti part. [spoilers removed]"

I have interpreted in this way: (view spoiler)[everybody has this shakti inside, we must only learn to use it. Ganga is poor, Shiela is rich but regardless of this both have this powerful energy. Shiela was able to become rich because she never gave up and Ganga perhaps had never could become rich but she was able to marry her daughter and, above all, she was able to send away the gangster who felt in love with Asha. I know this could be very hard to do for a lonely woman and so I admired her determination and her courage. But at the end also Shiela has taken a big risk in order to marry his son (buying the society of the Boatwallah). But both did everything for their children and I like this.
Men aren't important :D I'm joking, but men are only "half" without their women. Also reading books about Hindu deities there is written that Shiva is not strong without his wife Shakti: he is the action but she is his energy in order to do the action. There is also a way to say: "behind a big man there is always a big woman" (or something like this).
About the Shanghai Club I think it was Sheila who opened it in order to have an exclusive Club like Dolly and in order to invite only persons she liked and of course leaving out Dolly. Sheila wanted to become stronger than Dolly and at the end she succeeds. (hide spoiler)]

[dely]

I have read the fourth story: artha. It was again an ok read, not bad but nothing special.

But I don't understand: if the purushartha are: artha, kama, dharma and moksha why Chandra didn't write a story about moksha but one about shanti? Perhaps because moksha is difficult to reach and so "normal" persons should be glad also reaching "only" a peaceful life (I have written only quoted because I think it is very difficult to reach peace and serenity in life)? I can understand the story about shakti because everything we do we have to use our shakti, our energy (to work, to love, to follow the path of dharma...); but why shanti and not moksha?

I hope to find the answer in the last story, if there is an answer; perhaps Chandra has written this book without thinking about the purushartha.

[Ahtims]

good, I wont buy this book now.

[dely]

I have read also the fifth story: shanti. So I have finished the book.
From one side this story was nice (view spoiler)[ there are a lot of mini-stories in the story and I like this; but from the other side it was difficult for me to understand because there are hints to the history of India (Nehru and other names I don't remember). The history of India is not important to understand the story but I have would liked to understand better this hints but there were no notes. (hide spoiler)]

In my edition, at the end (and I have seen it only now finishing the book :/) there is a short part dedicated to the explanation of the purushartha and there is written that with moksha we reach shanti. I was sure this two words had different meanings and could not be synonyms but it seems that once we reach moksha we will have Peace. So now I know why the last story is entitled "shanti" and not moksha.

[Aravind]

dely wrote: "I have finished the third story: Kama :/

Didn't liked it at all, would give 1 star to this story.
First because it is a thriller-mystery and I don't like this genre. But the worst thing is that t..."

I actually liked this one more than the other two. Mainly because of the narration and clear cut characterisation. (view spoiler)[The 'Yearning' of the characters are so aptly expressed. In this story Chandra is drawing the line of tension over longing for a human touch, and how that yearning and dismissal can drive people into devilish state. Even Sartaj goes mad that leads to the death of the thief in his custody.
Kshitij kills his father because he thinks such things as immoral and against his cultural beliefs. He is part of an extreme right-wing outfit called 'Rakshaks'(something like Shivsena) so it is his prestige issue as well. (hide spoiler)]

So far I am impressed with his narratives and characterisation. It is more like a literary fiction, where situations and characters are elaborated instead of the plot which is left on its own. I mean, we feel those characters very realistically now I suppose and their strength and weakness. I am able to draw some similarities with the style of Julian Barnes.

To me, I am unable to see Bombay in the stories, and that is what I expected foremost. The stories so far covers only a certain class of the city whilst the city is known for its working class more than the others. He mentions the places, little bit of landscapes and weather but still it is not bringing the pulse of that city into the stories, I felt.

Regarding the historical bits, so far I didn't feel the significance of them either, even symbolically.

I am a bit slow as I am working on night shifts and have just started 'Artha'. Liked your explaination on 'Shakti'.

[dely]

Aravind wrote: "I actually liked this one more than the other two. Mainly because of the narration and clear cut characterisation. (view spoiler)"


This one is the one I liked the less :D
Though I understood that (view spoiler)[Kshitij was part of this right-winged party I could not understand why he should be interested in the sexual desires and perversions of his parents. I thought this party would be interested only in politics and nothing more. (hide spoiler)]

I think for me the problem is also the translation. I had already read Red Earth and Pouring Rain and so I know that Chandra uses a good language, he knows how to hold the reader's attention and I liked his way of writing. I have looked on the two books and they have different translators. In Love and Longing I had to re-read some parts because I could not understand who the subject of the sentence was. And this is surely a problem of the translation.

Don't search for Bombay in this book, there are only some places and nothing more.

[Aravind]

dely wrote: "Aravind wrote: "I actually liked this one more than the other two. Mainly because of the narration and clear cut characterisation. (view spoiler)"


This one is the one I liked the less :D
Though I..."

I finished ARTHA and that is till now the best I have read and this one had plenty of Bombay in it, a kind of right mixture. Bombay used to called the city of dreams. People come there hoping for prosperity and they find their dreams broken by its own vanity. That is the drama of the lives, like when their resolve turn bitter, love more fierce and longing more painful, gives a better glimpse of psyche of the city.
I am understanding the significance of titles better now. In all the stories here, it is about love and longing centered around the human behavior and its consequences. While I was reading each of the stories, I could get some cultural idiosynchracies that I might have come across in some Indian movies. Chandra narrated the first 3 in a kind of noirish, with plenty of bitterness or resentment in the narratives, and those weren't that poetic so you won't feel a beauty in the story which I guess is fine as far as the theme concerned is darker. The 'Artha', I felt, was more poetic, it was funny and sad as well.

Dely, I can understand, if translation is not up to the mark then it ruins the pleasure. On the back of that, William Weaver used to be the translator for most of the good Italian works that I have read(Italo Calvino, Umberto Eco etc) heard he has gone sick and won't be doing anymore translations :(.

I am about to start the last one...

[dely]

Reading your opinions about the book let me suppose that I was not able to understand what Chandra wanted to tell to the reader; as if there is something I couldn't catch. It is also true that I don't know Bombay and I have never watched an Indian movie (and the book is full of hints and references to the movies) and so I have missed a lot.
I was focused to find in the stories a deepening of the titles, anything philosophical/spiritual, and so I was not able to see if there was also something else. Now that you point it out, it's true, in every story there is love (for a brother, for a child, for a woman/man, the country...) but I was looking for something else and so probably I have missed all the rest :/

[Aravind]

dely wrote: "Reading your opinions about the book let me suppose that I was not able to understand what Chandra wanted to tell to the reader; as if there is something I couldn't catch. It is also true that I do..."

Kunal too had voted for this book, I am hoping that he would be having some interesting views to share...

[dely]

Aravind wrote: "Kunal too had voted for this book, I am hoping that he would be having some interesting views to share... "

I hope it too.

[Aravind]

Finished the book. The last one was beautiful. (view spoiler)[The only one which, in a way, we can say ended happily. I loved the stories in that story. That was an ingenious one. It was like longing of eons, that traveled around telling stories, consoling one another, and finally like a typical Indian film they lived happily ever after. Here we realize that the narrator, to us, is not actually Subramaniam, it an unnamed person to whom Subramaniam is narrating. It was a pleasant surprise that the last story was Subramaniam's own. (hide spoiler)] I liked the last 3 stories a lot. Dharma is the one I liked the least of the lot, even in that (view spoiler)[ revelation that he himself was the ghost was mind blowing. I mean, nostalgia of childhood is one thing, but when we wish to bury our past over guilt, it comes back and haunt us. (hide spoiler)]. Shakti also didn't hit my chord well, though Ganga's episode was really good.

My rating:
Dharma - ***
Shakti - ***
Kama - ****
Artha - ****
Shanti - ****

[dely]

If you liked the last one then you must absolutely read Vikram Chandra's Red Earth and Pouring Rain. I have liked this one more than Love and Longing. It is a story full of little stories, very good (except for the ending, for me it was disappointing). Though I gave also to Red Earth only 2 stars it is, in my opinion, better than Love and Longing. I should change the rating and give 3 stars to Red Earth.

Love and Longing is not a bad book but I am sure Chandra could have done better above all deepening the stories.
I have also to read Sacred Games and I have read that the main character will be Sartaj. I have bought it without reading the plot and I hope it will not be a thriller/mystery.

My rating:

dharma: **
shakti: ***
kama: *
artha: **
shanti: ***

[Richard]

I enjoyed this book quite a lot, however there were some things that startled me about it. I was somewhat shocked at the prominence of erotica in some of the stories although perhaps I should not have been. (I don't want to be any more explicit--if you'll pardon my word choice--lest it tempt me into a spoiler.)

In general, Chandra has protagonists who are quite introspective, and he seems to approach his characters and stories in a way that at first seems somehow detached, but ends up being intense. For example, in "Dharma" the reader meets Jago Antia, someone who is military, rigid and in tight control of himself; by the end one discovers a man whose life is full of pain and tragedy. Similarly, the reader comes to empathize with the hurt and fragility of Sartaj ("Kama"), Iqbal ("Artha") and Shiv ("Shanti"). For myself, though, this is less true of Sheila in "Shakti" and I wonder if that's because Chandra was just indulging in a cutting satire of social climbers or because he is less adept at portraying female protagonists.

A theme which seems to run through all the stories is that of a quest to be achieved or a mystery to be solved, in other words, a journey toward understanding.

[dely]

Richard wrote: "A theme which seems to run through all the stories is that of a quest to be achieved or a mystery to be solved, in other words, a journey toward understanding. "


Yes, it is.
I don't know if you know a little bit of Hindu philosophy but the book speaks about the purushartha: targets that a person must reach in order to live happily, satisfied, a fulfilled life.
Dharma: the duty that everybody of us has and must follow. Everybody has his dharma, he must find out which it is and follow this path.
Artha: work, profit. Everybody of us must work in order to mantain himself, his family.
Kama: love. Not only sentimental love but also passional, carnal love. A person must search fulfillment also in this in order to have a satisfied life.
Shanti: peace (though the last purushartha is called moksha, liberation from reincarnation). Every person must live in order to achieve liberation, peace, moksha.
Shakti: energy. This is not a purushartha but without energy there is no action so people can't follow the path of dharma, they can't work, they can't love and they can't reach moksha. Everything is energy and shakti is a strong female energy (she is also worshiped like a goddess in Shaktism). I am sure that Chandra put it in the purusharta because without energy there can't be nothing, everything is energy.

[Richard]

Dely, Thank you for that explanation. I know a little about Hinduism, having read a few sacred texts (in English translation) and some basic introductory material. But I am by no means an expert. This gives me a much better idea of how the stories are connected.

[dely]

You're welcome.
Me neither are an expert! I know only a few things.

[Shriya]

I just read above this book is a part of some series? So that means I can not just purchase Love and Longing in Bombay alone?!

How much history content?
Is it simple?
Does it get to the point?

[Aravind]

Shriya wrote: "I just read above this book is a part of some series? So that means I can not just purchase Love and Longing in Bombay alone?!

How much history content?
Is it simple?
Does it get to the point?"

No. It is a collection of short stories. One of the stories have some characters from his another novel 'Sacred Games'.
It doesn't have any historical bits in it. In couple of stories I didn't feel it was happening in Bombay either.

[Shriya]

Um ok so it has nothing related to Bombay as such? I am creating a huge collection of Bombay/Mumbai related stories either set or about, this one is in that list..

[Aravind]

Shriya wrote: "Um ok so it has nothing related to Bombay as such? I am creating a huge collection of Bombay/Mumbai related stories either set or about, this one is in that list.."

The book says it is set in Bombay :)

shakti
kama
artha

These 3 gives a kind of feel that it is in Bombay. While the others could be any metropolitan city. I mean, all these stories are quite dramatic and gives a feel of maybe watching a good Bollywood movie so that sometimes gives a feel that it might be Bombay/Mumbai(I mean really different movies like say Dobhi ghat, Shaitan or Mumbai meri jaan etc).

[Shriya]

Okay, so which one to start first?