Who's reading The Cloak of Magic?

[Jackie]

And would anyone be interested in discussing it?

[Jim]

Sure. I'm only 100 pages in right now. It's slow going due to life. I wish I had more time to read, but 30 minutes during lunch each day is about all I'm managing.

Spoilers or not?

[Jackie]

I don't know, I think Sue should decide.
Personally I don't like spoilers if I haven't gotten to that part yet. And I don't like to ruin it for anyone by giving spoilers.

I don't have much left, I'm hoping to finish today, tomorrow at the latest. I can wait for you, or we could discuss what you've read so far. You lead, I'll follow...

[Jackie]

I finished it, so spoil away my friends! LOL

[Jim]

I think the topic needs to be marked as containing spoilers. I think I'm up to 125 or so now.

[Jackie]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Sue will start a discussion and we follow from there.

How are you liking it so far?

[Jim]

I'm really liking it & bemoaning the lack of time to devote to it. I'm up to 150 or so now.

[Jackie]

You'll get there. I am fortunate to have the time I need to read when I want.

[John]

I'm in the same boat Jim is, struggling to find the time, except that I'm over 100 pages behind him. I think I can find some time today though, and probably over the weekend, so I hope to finish and join in the discussion... but don't wait on me.

[Jackie]

For some silly reason I wrote the wrong title, my apologies everybody and most especially to the author S A Rule. I tried to edit that but only the moderator can do that.

The correct title is:

THE CLOAK OF MAGIC
Again, my apologies,
Jackie

[S.A.]

Hi folks, thanks for starting the discussion on Cloak of Magic.

I really sympathise with the guys who don't have the time they'd like to read: my life is manic, which is my way of saying sorry I haven't joined in this discussion yet. Between the day-job, the music, and the writing I need at least two clones to keep up.

I think I'd like to know what people want to talk about. I can give you the low-down on the background to what I was trying to achieve in writing the Shaihen Heritage series, and maybe we can take it from there.

Cloak of Magic has been thirty years in the making. Pretty poor rate of productivity, you might think....but I always start stories in the middle and then go back and write the beginning.

The story of Shehaios, the Fair Land, started in a fantasy world roughly parallel to Earth's Western civilisation during the 20th century. It started, in fact, as a joke. What if there was a place in this world where magic really did work, and things were just like the chocolate-box idea of Merrie England?

In the mid-1970s (pre-Pratchett, I'll have you note!) I wrote a comic fantasy trilogy called The Laughter Bloom. In the course of it, I began to invent characters and situations that really went deeper than the joke. And, as with the best jokes, I began to explore the truths it revealed that made it look, on the surface of it, absurd.

Over the next two decades, I explored some of these characters and ideas while I was bringing up my children. And I discovered how much it makes you think - really think - about why people are as they are and why they do the things they do when you try to write honestly, and stay true to your characters and their world.

I got to the point where I wanted to share the discoveries I'd made and the stories that came out of them. But none of what I'd written was fit for publication. It was a stream of consciousness, about 400,000 words of it, and I didn't know where to start making sense of it. I'd only written it to entertain myself.

So I went back in time to show the roots of the joke. How that world came to be some two thousand years later. That's what the first trilogy Cloak of Magic, Staff of Power and Spirit of Shehaios are about. And that's why Kierce has the sense of humour he has; that's why he's such an irreverant piece of work. Out of his flawed character come events that change his world. He is the figure of a man, the one piece in the game of twelve stones that turns everything on its head.

So giving out free review copies was a trick. The idea is to get you hooked. There's a lot more of this world.....!

Sue

[Jackie]

I, for one, am so glad you got me hooked. I love nothing more than a good book. I'm impatient for The Staff of Power to come out next month.
It was an excellent way to get new readers and very smart on your part. You knew that all your book needs is readers, because the story is fantastic.
I hope you sell enough books so you can quit the day-job and put all your energy into your writing.

[John]

I just finished Cloak of Magic today (I did little else Saturday)--S.A., thank you so much for giving away copies (yeah, I know you had ulterior motives, but I'm still excited not only to get a book free, but to enjoy it). I've posted my review on my blog and here on Goodreads and now I'm looking forward to discussing it with any of you who are interested.

[S.A.]

John, thanks for a thoughtful and measured review. I would have loved to have Cloak of Magic put under the microscope by a good editor before it escaped into the world. I spent three years getting absolutely nowhere trying to engage with the publishing industry in this respect before I gave up.

I learned a huge amount about the craft in the course of writing it, and am still learning - I will be interested to know if you find similar nitpicks with Staff of Power. I think it's a better book; I aim for continuous improvement!

Sue

[Jim]

I'm still lagging. I don't think I've read so little in years, but life is just too busy. I'm trying to get my bowls out before Xmas, plus a ton of other projects. I haven't bought a single Xmas present, either.

Thanks for the background, Sue. Interesting. Are there any copies of 'The Laughter Bloom' around?

Kierce is a great character & the world is fantastic. I'll get another 30 minutes or so at lunch today, I hope.

[S.A.]

There's a typewritten manuscript of the Laughter Bloom in my cupboard but I really don't think you'd want to read it!!!

I will be mining it (and the best jokes) for the later books in the Shaihen Heritage series; how widely that gets published will depend on my success in combining the roles of author, agent, bookseller etc. with all the other calls on my time.

Frustrating having to read in 30 minute bites; I suffer from the same problem. I wrote COM in 1-2 hour bites mostly between the hours of 10.00 pm and 4.00 am. Only time I had!! I have raised the priority of my writing activity since then; not least because I'm getting too old to stay up all night and work all next day. Especially if I've been playing a gig in the evening!

Sue

[Jackie]

John,
That was a most excellent review you gave. Detailed.
The Caiivorian Army reminded me of the Roman Army also. I like how you wrote of Kierce and Caras, how they often seemed to be working at cross purposes.

Kierce has a unique way of doing things, and keeps his cards close to the vest. After all, he is champion twelve-stone player, I'd be surprised if he gave anything away.
I found Kierce to be a unique and complicated character but not overly complicated. It was interesting getting to know him.

I was very surprised what happens near the Gate at the end, and how it happened. I didn't see it coming. I can see that it will re-shape Kierce in the coming novels.

Sue's writing was exceptional. The book had good flow, I didn't get lost on ideas or unnecessary side-tracking as many novels slated as trilogies can get.
I was more than pleased with the Cloak of Magic and am anxiously awaiting the Staff of Power next month.

[S.A.]

By the way, folks, working out the basic rules of Twelve Stones is my Christmas holiday project...while I've got the kids around to practice with! (My kids are all in their 20s and have boyfriends or husbands to be co-opted into such exercises)

It's potentially a fascinating game. IF I can figure out the rules....

[Jim]

S.A. wrote: "By the way, folks, working out the basic rules of Twelve Stones is my Christmas holiday project..."
Careful, some authors have made more money on spin-off games than their books, I think. Oh, that wouldn't be bad, would it? ;-)

[S.A.]

What's this strange concept "making money from your books"? Is it rude...?

Seriously - yep, that's why I've got my thinking cap on. My day job is in marketing ( for my sins). My objective as a writer is for people to read - and enjoy - Shaihen Heritage, but I can't achieve it without money. Since no-one else (ie a publisher) wants to put any money behind it, I have to generate the money.

In business, "the whole and the connections" is known as systems thinking. Focusing activity on the outcome. Theory's good. Dunno if I can actually do it.

[John]

This is in part a post about an idea I wanted to bring up anyway, and it's partially a response to Jackie's post (as such, first, thank you for the kind remarks about my review).

Oh, and by way of warning, this could be considered to have spoilers, though they're largely of a thematic nature.

I was thinking about the parallels to the Roman empire, especially perhaps the parallelism between Tay-Aien and Christianity, each a monotheistic religion moving into a polytheistic one.

What was most interesting to me, though, was not any parallels that it might be possible to draw between them, but a different connection between the Empire of the Sacred Union and "the real world."

In order to get into this, let me back out a little to discuss history, with full knowledge that "history" in not "what happened" but is something more like "interpretations of what might have happened." This is probably nowhere more true than in the period I want to look at: pre-history. In the time before history (which is to say, civilization) began, human being seem to have been organized into tribes. A tribe may be relatively large or relatively small, but at its heart a tribe is profoundly egalitarian, in part because there's very little to fight over: food is freely available to be hunted or gathered, possessions are at a minimum. Chiefs tend to be people who lead because they are respected, whether that's for their hunting prowess or fighting ability, their wisdom, or simply their personal charm and charisma. Even these leaders have virtually no coercive power: if a majority of the tribe disagrees, there's very little even the greatest warrior can do to force people to do something. These leaders tend to share in the work similarly to the other members of the tribe and to reap the benefits at a similar level.

Then came agriculture, the basis for civilization. In a simplification, the ability to make more food led to more people, but it also led to locking up the food and specializing. With civilization, you rapidly develop firm hierarchies: kings and priests on top, all sorts of middle managers following them, on down to the peasants. Now, there *is* a very real difference between leaders and the led. In these hierarchies, the people at the top have control of the food supplies and the military, and now have power to impose their will upon everyone else. They also have significant material benefits.

All of civilization is the heir to this sort of thing, and we see the image stamped on most of our social institutions, from businesses to schools to government. True, in the past few hundred years, we've created ideals of "freedom" and "equality," but we still perpetuate social structures that inhibit both in ways both big and small.

I bring all this up because it was the lens through which I read the conflict between the empire and Shehaios. Very early, when looking at Orlii's mind and those of other Caiivorians, Kierce notes the fundamental difference in the way they think compared to the way Shaihen people think, and relates it to an internalization of hierarchy at all levels. Shehaios, at least as an ideal, is egalitarian. "King" Rainur needs the approval of his Holders (sort of), and it's a culture where anyone can speak his or her mind. Of course, *some* hierarchy seems to have crept in before the story starts... the common people may be able to speak their minds, but only Holders have the right to issue a challenge. Even the challenge itself is interesting in this context, though, because the first thing it seems to lead to is discussion--often extended discussion. And with the coming of the Caiivorians, Shehaios seems to be moving more and more toward stratification. I believe there was a comment to the effect that the heir to a Holder or even the King did not necessarily need to be a family member, but that with the marriage to Cathva, Rainur pretty much *will* have to name his son his heir.

But of course that kind of thing was already going on, and even justifying it by saying that the children of people who rule tend to learn about how to rule and thus be the best choice doesn't change the fact that it's a de facto hereditary system. Even though the servants may have it better in Shehaios than in the Empire, there still seems to be a somewhat strict class system, or at least an emerging one.

Nonetheless, these are the ideals that compete in the novel, hierarchy vs. equality. As an interesting aside, it was interesting to see the emperor styling himself "Zelt the Fair, Champion of the Free, Emperor of the Whole World," but then he decides that doesn't sound quite right, so he changes it to "Zelt the Fair, Holy Emperor of the Free World." Now, in his own mind, it might be that it sounds too wordy or awkward, but we readers see clearly enough that he's nothing like "Champion of the Free," but "Free World" is--as in our own world--just words (on which Zelt himself has just been meditating), nice-sounding but essentially meaningless.

Anyway, it's interesting to me to see how Shehaios tries to negotiate this change, how it seeks to hold onto its essential character. How *can* a land of pacifists deal with violence--especially the organized violence of a disciplined army? How can Shehaios become part of the empire without becoming more hierarchical... especially as its young men go off to serve in the army for five years, internalizing Caiivorian values? We've only just begun to see this conflict play out, but I'd have to say at this point it isn't going so well for Shehaios....

I look forward to seeing what others thing. And if you made it this far, thanks for reading. And reading, and reading... :)

[S.A.]

Yes. And I didn't necessarily know all this stuff when I started writing. I write and see where the characters and situations take me. My characters tell me the story as we go along (I used to write almost entirely dialogue, I've had to learn to paint the canvas too!) This is why I write. I want to find out what happens too! I'd really like lots of other people to come on the journey with me, hence the promotional activites.

Shaihen Heritage is really all about how ideas and ideals survive - the relationship between man and the myths he creates. This is why the Shaihens sing their histories to each other. It conveys the emotional truth more than the factual truth of what happened - this comes from the fact that I love singing the jingoistic warlike ballads of English history and Imperialism; but also love union songs and protest songs, and world folk music, because at heart I'm still the left-wing revolutionary who was in love with Che Guevara in my teens. This internal contradiction in me is what I draw on ("Write what you know" they say). As I said, Shehaios started off as a joke. A feudal anarchy ("you can't have a feudal anarchy!" I hear you cry. No. Exactly!)

Shehaios strives to be "The Fair Land, the Home of the Free" It can't escape the natural human tendency towards heirarchical structure; but the Magician is (supposed!) to keep his/her eye on the ball and shape the good intentions of the Shaihen people towards the utopian dream. Holders provide the necessary leadership; Minstrels act as the voice of the people, both those still living and their ancestors. Everyone in Shehaios has a role to play, but those roles are given equal weight . More of this in Staff of Power! Because there is no kow-towing to the leaders, there is no evolution of a blame culture (bosses screw the workers, workers try and cheat the bosses, financiers make millions and no-one gets in the harvest or notices that the environment's going to hell in a handcart - sorry, put that soapbox away...).

One of my songs is called Take Down the Walls and Leave the Pictures. It's one of those "what's that all about?" songs (which is why I gave it a jolly catchy tune!) A bit of it:

"For no man is an island, we're just ships tossed on the waves
There's never any telling who life sinks and who life saves
And the image of a dream's the only wealth we'll ever have
So let's take down the walls and leave the pictures
Oh yes, take down the walls and leave the pictures
For the passions that we share
Make such a great divide
So lets take down the walls and leave the pictures."

(You can get it from efolkmusic.org - band: Pig's Ear, cd A Silk Purse
http://www.efolkmusic.org/ArtMusic/Vi... )

Sue

[Jim]

I finally finished it, although my normal lunch break got stretched quite a bit. Oh well, I generally take a shorter one than I need to, so it works out. I was close to the end & for the past couple of days I've been having a harder time putting it down. Today was just impossible.

Congrats, Sue. There aren't many books I feel that way about. Excellent read. I posted reviews here, on Amazon & Barnes&Nobel. I urge everyone else to do the same.

[Jim]

I loved how the characters rationalized & came to their various decisions. All the marks were there, but the twisting paths they took to act, react & justify their actions were excellent. Very life like.

[S.A.]

Thanks for your comments Jim. The interplay between the characters comes from the dialogue thing; the plot really does develop as they talk and react to each other. I don't know where it's going till the end, though I do go back and tidy it up and take out some of the dead ends afterwards!

"You never know the truth until you've heard all the stories. As you never know all the stories, you never know the whole truth."

Sue

[S.A.]

Any other readers of Cloak of Magic care to comment on the discussion?

Or are you all too busy reading!! (Which is a much better idea....)

[Jim]

My daughter, Erin, just finished it & really liked it. I don't think she's in this group & she's stuck on dialup at home, so I doubt she'll be on to participate.

My wife wants to read it, too. I don't know when she'll get to it since she just started Jordan's series & has several other books after that.

[Jackie]

I sent my copy to Chris, a dear friend of mine who joined goodreads at the same time I did. She should be getting it any time now. I'm anxious to know how she'll like it.
We've only got a couple of weeks until The Staff of Power comes out! Jan. 10. Who is getting it? It's going to be my birthday present to myself, hee-hee.
Sue, can I pre-order it?

[Jim]

Make sure to remind me when it comes out. I'll order it for sure, even if my 'To-Read' pile is getting out of hand. PaperBackSwap & BookMooch are doing wonders for me.

[Jackie]

My 'to read' shelves are always full, but I do get to them. Eventually. Staff of Power will not sit on my shelf long though.

[S.A.]

My "To Read" pile keeps growing too, which isn't doing progress on Spirit of Shehaios much good!

Anyone know how I can clone myself....?

[Bradley]

Without spoiling the storyline, I read the whole thing and it is rather dark. Does the next story lighten up any? Tragedy is great but this book has it in spades. I liked the tale well enough. It was well written and deeply thought out. Just my thoughts. =)

[Jackie]

I didn't think it was too dark. Sure, there's some (which any good fantasy should have) to balance the light. There were both in Shehaios.

[S.A.]

Bradley wrote: "Without spoiling the storyline, I read the whole thing and it is rather dark. Does the next story lighten up any? Tragedy is great but this book has it in spades. I liked the tale well enough. It w..."

Once a book leaves its author and finds a reader, it shape-shifts into something new for every individual who reads it. I'm finding it fascinating to see what people find in my book. I just wrote it how it came to me.

Bradley - I appreciate your comments, and those in your review. It gives due warning that the mood of Cloak of Magic may not be to everyone's taste. The Shaihen Heritage series seeks to go beyond the universal charm of childrens' fantasy into adult literature, and that inevitable takes us somewhere deeper and darker.

I did not intend to write a "dark" fantasy, I intended to try my best to create real people behaving as real people behave in a world as "real" as I could make it. Their actions have consequences. That's my view of the world. It is not about good vs. evil, it's about being part of the solution - and recognising that you're also part of the problem.

Staff of Power is a continuation of the history, in a world changed by the actions of the characters in Cloak of Magic. It introduces some new characters, touched in unexpected ways by those events. I think it ends up in a more positive place (I wait to see what readers think!) but is it less dark...? Well, I don't know. Heroes are those who lay down their lives for the greater good, their stories inevitably tend towards the tragic. Shaihen Heritage is the story of the Shaihen Spirit, which lives on.

....and on, and on... depends how much you guys want of it!

[S.A.]

It is intriguing what different readers have to say.

Mark comments that the ending of Cloak of Magic left the story feeling incomplete. Erin commented that she was surprised there was a sequel because Cloak of Magic came to a final and satisfactory end in itself.....!

And I guess they're both right, though I definitely appreciate where Mark's criticism comes from.

[Jim]

I'll have to talk to Erin about why she said she thought the book came to a definite end. I certainly didn't feel that way, either. I'm looking forward to the next book. As far as I'm concerned, there are a dozen situations ready to blow. Marg hasn't had a chance to read it yet, so we'll have to watch out for her being around.

Right now, the girls are at an award dinner. I think Erin took 2 divisions, one for the state, in horse showing. She flew back early from Maryland to attend. I'll catch her tomorrow, though.

[S.A.]

I suspect it's to do with the degree to which you get caught up with the character of Kierce. The end of Cloak of Magic is the conclusion of Kierce's plans and schemes; but he's just one individual in the story of Shehaios.

[Jim]

Ah, that almost makes sense, although I still think the girl is just 'special'. I still think Kierce has a lot a head of him. I hope so, anyway. I really like his character.

We didn't have much time to chat about it last night. They got back past my bedtime from the awards dinner. She took Reserve Champion (2d) for the state in her division. The other was just a local win. The best news is she may have a job breaking ponies this summer now. She talked to a trainer at the dinner last night. It was held at the Church Hill Downs Museum which was fun, they said. That's the home of the Kentucky Derby, probably the most famous horse race in the US, in case your not into horses.

[S.A.]

Congratulation to Erin - I can tell you are proud of her and rightly so! I hope she gets the job she wants (does she use Monty Roberts methods for breaking ponies?)

When my daughters were growing up we had a horse and a pony. We had some fun, I did a bit of dressage, my daughter did a bit of show-jumping, but we never did it seriously. Happy hackers, most of the time! One of our favourite routes was round the remains of an iron-age hilltop fort above our town (which is situated on a Roman road). History comes to life when you ride, or walk past it every day.

These days, I don't have time for more hobbies - the music and the writing (and running the business!) take up more than 7 days a week as it is! So I no longer ride.

As for Kierce, don't worry, he has to sort out that mess he created in Cloak of Magic before I let go of him.

[Jackie]

Congrats to Erin, Jim.

By the end of The Cloak of Magic, Kierce is a completely changed man. I think he now understands his predecessor and why he was always at a distance.
I think what happened to his son, the betrayal by Orlii, will have lasting effects on him and fundamentally change him. And he'll see things differently, not so casually. I think he'll be a better man, but he'll have a lot of work ahead of him. Partially, what came before, and righting his mistakes, and partially what's to come. The threat of The Empire is not over.

Next Monday, THE STAFF OF POWER is released, I can hardly wait.

[S.A.]

"Generations of dreams have woven the Staff of Power"

"Before he passed on his title to his successor, Lord High Magician Turloch took his heir half way up a mountain just before dawn to show him the source of his power and the authority which ruled him.

He placed the Magician's staff, the symbolic representation of his power, in Kierce's hands.
“Go home,” said Turloch.

With the knowledge and insight Shaihen magic gave him, Kierce looked at the dreams and aspirations of his family, his friends and the neighbours he had grown up amongst in the prosperous Holding of Arhaios, in the province of Oreath.

The histories sung in the ballads of Shehaios were tales of chieftains in battle, heroic feats and momentous events that had brought the five tribes of the lands between the mountains and the sea together, but Kierce could see that what made the Fair Land what it was were the timeless songs of the dreams and desires of its people.

The Shaihen people shared neither the knowledge nor the power of the Lord High Magician. The lives that wove the staff did so unknowingly. It was the Magician's trust to use the power they gave him wisely; to use it to heal and not to destroy.

That was the trust Turloch placed in Kierce’s hands."

From Staff of Power, Shaihen Heritage Book 2 (it is necessary to set the scene for new readers!!)

[Jim]

Thanks. I am tickled with Erin. Her method of breaking is learned from her mother who learned from some of the best. Never having read Monty Roberts, I can't say how much of his methods are incorporated. They do a fairly gentle breaking method, much less intense than what I learned out west, but as effective. How they do it varies on the type/attitude & intelligence of the horse/pony. While a Welsh pony might survive & be broken by the tough western methods, a TB would panic & die.

I'm glad we'll keep seeing Kierce, couldn't imagine it any other way.

Wow! Two good books coming out in Feb. Another favorite author, 13 years deceased, Roger Zelazny, has a new book being released as well. So much to read, so little time!

[S.A.]

Worth reading Monty Roberts. Even more worth going to see him give a demonstration if you get the chance! Real-life magic. He talks to the horse in the horse's language - negotiates with it, really, rather than "breaks" it in the traditional sense. Kierce's magic only takes it one degree further!

I have a Roger Zelazny sitting on my "to read" pile on the advice of one of my other readers, who is also a fellow folk-singer and guru of Kentish custom, folklore and storytelling. As my own Book 3 has ground to a halt while I'm busy wearing my book-promotion head (which is completely different to my writing head) I might take the opportunity to read it and visit someone else's world for a while.

My new year's resolution is to spend one evening a week just reading. Otherwise, I never do.

Sue

[Jim]

Which Zelazny books? My favorites are Lord of Light & This Immortal, I think. I just gave Erin the latter to read. I've written reviews on most of his books, if you're interested. He's probably my favorite author. While he's best known for his Amber series, he's written some wonderful books with a variety of styles. Often, very subtle with multiple layers.

"This Immortal" is a straight forward post apocalyptic adventure novel, but there are a ton of classical references. As I've matured & my reading has broadened, I find that re-reading the book brings up more & more references. Sometimes they're jokes & sometimes they just add a lot of depth to the story.

[S.A.]

I apologise to readers across the Pond for delays in obtaining Staff of Power. I don't know what is going on, but will beat my publisher about the head.

I think the party/brewery organisational interface has gone down again.....but then I'm just a "creative type" what do I know.....

grrr....

Sue

[S.A.]

I apologise to readers across the Pond for delays in obtaining Staff of Power. I don't know what is going on, but will beat my publisher about the head.

I think the party/brewery organisational interface has gone down again.....but then I'm just a "creative type" what do I know.....

grrr....

Sue

[Jackie]

I tried to order it from amazon. Since it's labelled 'currently unavailable' you can sign up to be notified when it comes available.
I haven't been this excited for a new book in quite a while. It's pleasant to be this excited about a forthcoming novel.

[Jim]

I'm also eagerly awaiting my notification from Amazon. I wish they'd let me pre-order, as I did with the Zelazny novel I'm also looking forward to this month. Maybe I should get sick for a week, hole up & catch up on the two dozen books that are tottering in ungainly piles waiting for my attention....

[Jackie]

I was surprised that I couldn't pre-order it. That would have been my preference.

[S.A.]

I am told the amazon.com order has been despatched by the publisher, so Staff of Power should be in stock soon.